Cocealment + Miss Chance

[Myrddin0001]

I'm building a SHadowcraft Mage and am taking levels of Master Specialist. Does the static "Concealment" granted by the MstrSpc Moderate Esoterica stack with the ScM's Cloak of Shadow which grants an untyped 15%+5%/level miss chance?

[AmberVael]

No. Cloak of Shadow is stated to be concealment.

A shadowcraft mage can cloak her form in shifting shadows. This ability provides her with a variable amount of concealment depending on her level.

For the record, miss chances never 'stack' like bonuses do anyway. It IS possible to gain two sources of miss chances, but you don't add them together, you just apply each one separately. (So if you had concealment and also entropic shield, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entropicShield.htm) people shooting at you would roll 2 20% miss chances, rather than a single 40%).

[Myrddin0001]

No. Cloak of Shadow is stated to be concealment.


For the record, miss chances never 'stack' like bonuses do anyway. It IS possible to gain two sources of miss chances, but you don't add them together, you just apply each one separately. (So if you had concealment and also entropic shield, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entropicShield.htm) people shooting at you would roll 2 20% miss chances, rather than a single 40%).

Yes but the moderate esoterica simply says "you gain Concealment", as in the standard 20% miss chance rule generally provided by cover, it's a static rule. the cloak of shadows is a separate named ability that gives you an untyped "variable amount of concealment, the word "concealment" here being used to describe the state of being hidden, not the rule "Concealment" stated under the combat sightlines codition. It is different sources as written. I might rule that you apply the sperately, an attacker would roll for one then the other, not together.

[Keneth]

Concealment is concealment, no matter how you put it. There is only one kind and it doesn't stack, the greatest amount of concealment is the one you use.

If there were two sources of miss chance, however, you would roll both. But that's not the case here.

[Emperor Tippy]

You can stack miss chance but only one of them can come from anything labeled "concealment".

However you can still stack Invisibility (+50% miss chance, total concealment), Displacement (+50% miss chance, not actual concealment), and Blink (+50% Miss Chance) for a mere 12.5% chance that you get hit (or 87.5% miss chance).

[Keneth]

How exactly do you stack invisibility and displacement? If you're invisible, then all your illusions are invisible as well, so displacement, blur, mirror image, etc. have no effect, just like if the attacker closed their eyes. :smallconfused:

[Emperor Tippy]

How exactly do you stack invisibility and displacement? If you're invisible, then all your illusions are invisible as well, so displacement, blur, mirror image, etc. have no effect, just like if the attacker closed their eyes. :smallconfused:

That would be RAW for you. Displacement specifically calls out that it's not actual total concealment. Thus it stacks.

Want something real funny? You can stack Displacement and a Minor Cloak of Displacement for 60% miss chance under the RAW. And stack both with total concealment.

[Myrddin0001]

I see now. I think Ill use Shadowcrafter instead of Master Specialist. changes my build around but it may come out better in the end now that I look at it. I was just all fired up for the free silent, stilled, eschewed materials from MstrSpec. The enhanced shadow spells from SCr will be better though.

[ddude987]

That would be RAW for you. Displacement specifically calls out that it's not actual total concealment. Thus it stacks.

Want something real funny? You can stack Displacement and a Minor Cloak of Displacement for 60% miss chance under the RAW. And stack both with total concealment.

*gasp* Oh Tippy you've enlightened me once again. Tippy, you are most certainly a win

[Keneth]

That would be RAW for you. Displacement specifically calls out that it's not actual total concealment. Thus it stacks.

Displacement, as its name implies, displaces your location. It says so right in the description. If you're invisible, your enemies can't see your displaced location any better than if you weren't displaced in the first place, ergo displacement has no effect. Unless enemies can see invisible creatures, in which case invisibility has no effect, so I don't see how you're planning on stacking anything. Unless you're arguing that your displaced image is still visible while you're invisible, which just opens a whole new can of worms.

[Emperor Tippy]

Displacement, as its name implies, displaces your location. It says so right in the description. If you're invisible, your enemies can't see your displaced location any better than if you weren't displaced in the first place, ergo displacement has no effect. Unless enemies can see invisible creatures, in which case invisibility has no effect, so I don't see how you're planning on stacking anything. Unless you're arguing that your displaced image is still visible while you're invisible, which just opens a whole new can of worms.

It makes no sense but RAW they still stack. Displacement specifically not being total concealment.

[Keneth]

It makes no sense but RAW they still stack. Displacement specifically not being total concealment.

It's irrelevant that displacement doesn't grant concealment. It's an illusion which affects your appearance. Your appearance is invisible, so the illusion has no effect on any observers, unless they can see past your invisibility, so the two are mutually exclusive. I agree that displacement "stacks" with concealment (both apply), but it doesn't matter if they can't see you.

[Emperor Tippy]

It's irrelevant that displacement doesn't grant concealment. It's an illusion which affects your appearance. Your appearance is invisible, so the illusion has no effect on any observers, unless they can see past your invisibility, so the two are mutually exclusive. I agree that displacement "stacks" with concealment (both apply), but it doesn't matter if they can't see you.
Again, that might be perfectly rational and logical but it's irrelevant to the RAW.

RAW is that concealment miss chances don't stack with one another, you take the best one.

RAW is also that miss chances stack so long as only one is from some type of concealment.

RAW is that Displacement provides a non concealment Miss Chance (it specifically calls it out as not being concealment).

RAW is that Invisibility provides total concealment (and thus 50% miss chance).

RAW Conclusion is that Displacement and Invisibility stack for 75% miss chance, regardless of how stupid that is or how little sense it makes.