Seems like the NPC Expert is much better than the Warrior.

[HowlingWolf]

What do you guys think?

(Expert Vs. Warrior.. Both built with 16 pb.)

D6 Hp
6 Sp

Light armor/Simple Weapons

A level 3 Expert with 16 Dexterity, a heavy masterwork crossbow, on higher ground, with weapon focus. That's an attack of..8. He has six or so ranks in both hide/move silently, while the typical warrior has 0 ranks in spot/listen.
Now, this will likely start with the Expert getting the drop on the warrior, and
thus an extra attack. Feats:Weapon Focus (Heavy Crossbow), Point Blank,
Far Shot. He has studded leather for a total defense of 16 (20 against ranged
if he is prone).

While the warrior would have d8 Hp and 2 sp. Yeah, sure, he has heavier armor, heavier weapons. If he's in heavy armor...he's all the slower, and that means more pot-shots for the expert. 3rd he will have around...12 hp.
The crossbow inflicts 5 damage at a minimum.

So, all in all, is it just me or does it seem like the Expert is better? Well, atleast if it's built specialized for the task....which is what an "Expert" is anyway..I think. A well-built expert has more skills, more skill points, almost
as many hit points, and with a specialty he seems to be more effective.

[Jacque]

You don't get an attack bonus from higher grounds when using a ranged weapon.

[HowlingWolf]

Hmmmm...yeah, that does make sense. Well, then, I guess he'd have an attack of...7. Still not bad. I'm sure it could be made higher.

[BowStreetRunner]

Sure, Expert can be optimized to take advantage of the skill selection, but if you take the Warrior and build a mounted combatant based around Ride, or give him Handle Animal and a bunch of vicious trained attack dogs, or Intimidate and the Imperious Command feat you are essentially accomplishing the same thing - you are optimizing your character based on his strengths.

It's easy to optimize one character and compare him to a generic build of another class, then say 'aha, this is better!' But it's harder to compare two optimized builds designed for very different circumstances. In the above examples, the Expert would have an advantage ambushing at range, the mounted Warrior would have an advantage in wide-open terrain, the animal trainer Warrior would have advantage in a thick wooded area where riding or shooting at range were difficult, and the intimidating Warrior would have an advantage indoors at close-quarters.

[Flickerdart]

The Warrior has a better attack bonus, doesn't need to spend feats on proficiency with the crossbow, and has more HP. In a crossbow slugfest, he will win. The Expert's hide and move silently aren't relevant, because you take a -20 when attacking - the Warrior has a great chance to notice the Expert even with no ranks.

[Frosty]

Expert can take advantage of UMD?

[Juntao112]

And Knowledge Devotion, the thinking man's Weapon Focus.

[bored2deth]

That's an interesting idea...warrior with attack dogs..and an attack horse. :-)

[HowlingWolf]

Well, yes, the Warrior has the advantage inherently for combat. I was trying to show that the Expert, with a little thought, can be pretty nasty too (as well as a skill monkey). Hadn't thought of a warrior with trained attack dogs..
I keep thinking a character has to have wild empathy and animal companion
abilities. Hmmmm... Well, in that light, the Expert (Crossbow Sniper, and the heavy crossbow is a simple weapon, Experts start with simple weapon proficiency)could also take handle animal and have attack dogs. *Evil grin*.

In terms of the Expert being better, I meant in terms of a decent attack/hd,
combined with a large number of skills/points in an all-around jack-of-all-trades sort of thing.

Okay, so all in all, would a character class with d6 hit die, full bab, and 4 sp per level per equal to or better than the warrior? (Limited to simple weapons and light armor.) (NPC class--so no class features.)

[eggynack]

Experts are generally better, but mostly just because of their massive skill monkeying. You can do a ton of work with ten class skills. Think something like UMD, diplomacy, iajatsu focus, autohypnosis, bluff, maybe sense motive or knowledge nobility for some diplomancy, spot, listen, and hide. Skill monkeying is generally more versatile than combat, and several of the skills I listed have direct combat ramifications. You can even switch some of those around for handle animal and ride, and equal the warrior on those terms. When experts first existed, they were the only class capable of accessing any set of skills they wanted at once, which has some minor applications in high optimization terms. Nowadays though, they've been utterly replaced by the far superior factotum.

[HowlingWolf]

So, the Expert's power is in his choice of skills, not so much his 6 sp (although, I'm sure 6 sp helps a lot)? I'm presuming that a d6 to d8 character with light armor and simple weapons, with 4 sp and a limit list of skills would not outshine either the warrior or the expert in their respected field?

[eggynack]

So, the Expert's power is in his choice of skills, not so much his 6 sp (although, I'm sure 6 sp helps a lot)? I'm presuming that a d6 to d8 character with light armor and simple weapons, with 4 sp and a limit list of skills would not outshine either the warrior or the expert in their respected field?
Well, if the expert didn't have a ton of skill points, then a large choice in skills wouldn't be that helpful. Based on the general premise of maxing out every skill you put any points in, the expert only really gets to choose 6+int mod skills. I don't see how pumping per level HP by one is going to really make up for losing crazy skill powers, so your evaluation is likely correct. The real power house of NPC's is the adept. Those guys are actually in a tier above that of the fighter.

[HowlingWolf]

The Adept is the strongest? Hmmm. Interesting. Now I have more to play around with. :-) A 3rd or 4th lvl Adept would be an interesting character in an E6 adventure. Maybe give her 14 in dex and wisdom, 10 in con and int.
A sort of backwater Witch with a tendency to guard her land and shack. She could have a pack of attack dogs (several of them), or maybe something even worse. :-) This is rather fun! She could take shots with a crossbow while the pack of attack dogs tore into the trespassers. Use of the sleep spell could be effective.

I'd think such a character could make for an interesting encounter, or..perhaps maybe a Coven of them. :-)

[eggynack]

Yeah, adepts are really good. Their spell progression is slow, but they have spells at every level that are reasonably powerful. The really amusing thing is that they're on the same tier as the warmage, and a tier higher than the healer.

[Soranar]

A more likely fight for the expert would be this

-expert wins ini (due to higher DEX, at least in theory)
-expert casts grease via wand and UMD (only feat I would invest in is wand affinity, or something like it I forget the name, which lets him activate a wand automatically if he did so earlier during the day)

-warrior can't charge and doesn't have 5 ranks in balance so he's basically dead

-expert plinks away at warrior until he dies with a crossbow

[HowlingWolf]

:-) LOL! Nice. That's one way to do it. So, all in all, the warrior stinks?

[137beth]

:-) LOL! Nice. That's one way to do it. So, all in all, the warrior stinks?

Warrior is indeed one of the weakest classes in the game. It is still probably better than aristocrat.
Although the adept is definitelynot as good as the commoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285984) :smalltongue:

[Gavinfoxx]

Experts are quite good.

See:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=380814

[Slipperychicken]

Expert takes:

Max ranks in Iaijutsu Focus
Ranks in Concentration

EWP: Gnomish Quickrazor.
Various skill tricks to make people flat-footed.
Martial Study (Sapphire Nightmare Blade)
Marbles


Now he has a slightly-less-damaging version of Sneak Attack which isn't resisted nearly as much.

[Flickerdart]

Expert takes:

Max ranks in Iaijutsu Focus
Ranks in Concentration

EWP: Gnomish Quickrazor.
Various skill tricks to make people flat-footed.
Martial Study (Sapphire Nightmare Blade)
Marbles


Now he has a slightly-less-damaging version of Sneak Attack which isn't resisted nearly as much.
Power Attack is still better.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you look at my expert, he can do things outside of combat, though...

[HowlingWolf]

Okay.....Warrior sucks. Wow.

[eggynack]

Okay.....Warrior sucks. Wow.
Well, they are NPC's. They're basically designed to suck. Also, they have some arguable advantages over monks, though we never did finish that comparison. Unlike monks, they have the ability to use good two handed weapons, they tend to have a higher AC, and they have full BAB.

[Kornaki]

Honestly you guys are treating the warrior like a mook in a Dr. McNinja comic. The expert sets ups his incredibly ambush, drops some UMD tricks on the warrior, and then the warrior stands there and dies because he forgot to bring his own crossbow?

[GeekGirl]

A more likely fight for the expert would be this

-expert wins ini (due to higher DEX, at least in theory)
-expert casts grease via wand and UMD (only feat I would invest in is wand affinity, or something like it I forget the name, which lets him activate a wand automatically if he did so earlier during the day)

-warrior can't charge and doesn't have 5 ranks in balance so he's basically dead

-expert plinks away at warrior until he dies with a crossbow

Why does the warrior just stand there and get shot. Sure the expert may have the advantage, but don't think it would be quite as one sided.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, the warrior might try to fire back with something that can be done while prone, or try to move out of the grease, or whatever.

The Expert is better off using something that prevents movement for longer, like Entangle+Spore Field. Anyway, my Expert is a melee guy...

[dascarletm]

If shooting at the warrior after greasing him, the warrior now has +4AC for being prone, and can fire his crossbow as well.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, for ranged, you should work on stuff like Spore Field + Entangle, Grease is for fighting in melee or with ranged touch attacks or high-accuracy ranged attacks...

[dascarletm]

Also, i think most NPCs that will need to be optimized (via leadership) by players will be levels 1. If they get their starting gold, then building a UMD expert may not be so helpful.

[Chronos]

The really nice thing about Adepts is their quirky spell list. They're divine casters, and so get all of the standard healing stuff, but then they also have some spells that are usually arcane-only, like Web, Lightning Bolt, and Polymorph, plus a familiar.

Of course, the best way to take advantage of the Adept spell list is via an Archivist.