[3.5]Monsters, Associated Levels, and CR

[Thurbane]

The SRD has this to say on what counts as associated class levels for monsters:


Associated Class Levels
Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.

Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.

Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.

A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

So is it accurate to say that for any melee based monster, a full BAB class is associated; for a skill based monster, any class with 6+ skill points/level is associated; and that for a casting monster, only classes that stack with their own innate casting are associated?

Also, this effectively means that classes like Marshal, Monk and Binder are never associated classes?

Cheers - T

[Chronos]

The general (though vague) rule is that if a class plays to a monster's strengths, it should be considered associated, and if it doesn't, it shouldn't. So if there's a monster somewhere that primarily works by buffing up the abilities of other monsters, you should probably consider Marshal an associated class for it. If a monster would really benefit by having faster movement and some stealth skills, you should consider Monk associated, and so on. It's not as easy to come up with examples as it is for barbarian or sorcerer, but I'm sure there are a few out there.

[BowStreetRunner]

This is one of those areas where as a DM, you have to use your own judgement as to whether the level truly makes the monster stronger by a full CR, or just adds fluff to it. For instance, this describes paladin as being associated with fighting ability. However, if I have a spellcasting monster with an outrageously high charisma and I give it two levels of paladin to pick up divine grace, I might not consider the first level associated as it doesn't really do anything for the build, but the second level I might consider associated because of the effect it will have on the monster's saving throws. You really have to use your own judgement sometimes.

Your example of Marshal not being associated would depend on what is being taken away from the dip into Marshal. The same Charisma-based spellcasting monster mentioned above might receive much more from a single-level dip in Marshall for the minor aura than an otherwise identical Intelligence or Wisdom-based spellcaster without a high Charisma.

[Chronos]

Oh, and the rules for this are deliberately vague, because calculating CR is something that only the DM will ever really have need to do. And all rules pertaining to the DM are inherently more just general guidelines than binding rules, so you might as well just write them that way to begin with.