Opinions on Hengeyokai: Shapeshifters of the East

[KillingAScarab]

It has been a long time since I last did anything with my World of Darkness books. The d20 system has held my interest for the majority of the time since it was introduced and I never picked up anything from New World of Darkness. But, I was looking through Complete Mage, which I never printed out the errata for, and noticed there was a spell which was described as receiving the wu-jen elemental mastery bonus for air (which the errata fixes). This set me on a line of thought which resulted in digging out Hengeyokai: Shapeshifters of the East, hoping to find some inspiration for the treatment of five elemental powers in a supernatural roleplaying game system. Now that I have looked over the first half of the book, though, I am wondering what everyone else thought of it. When I was playing World of Darkness games, it was in a vacuum. I have no idea what other people who used these books thought of them. So, why not ask the Playground what they thought about the book? Did it have everything you needed to get started (along with the main Werewolf rulebook, that is)? Did it need more? Was the setting very accurate or inaccurate? I believe I have read complaints about strange inaccuracies in one of the books White Wolf put out involving Australia.

To start with, I suppose I'll bring up some of the things I liked and some of the things I did not understand. I certainly enjoyed the idea of a setting where, from the start, more than just Garou were allowed to interact and even depend upon each other. As more changing breed books came out, I think that was something my group wanted more and more. I think diversity of cast was something we had already enjoyed in AD&D 2nd edition. Part of the Werewolf setting was also, "Things are so bad, we have to overcome our differences," so it seemed like a natural extension that somewhere in the world it was going to happen on a permanent basis. The shared pool of gifts are a nice start towards giving you rules which support that concept, even saying how changing breed gifts can be shared (though only through level three).

Less clear to me, though, were some of the social mechanisms the book suggests for how the Beast Courts work. As I said, I was looking for the implementation of five elements, and the elements of a sentai seem to only get the briefest mention. Until you look at the directions of wind, then you realize those have the briefest mention; at least the elements got a sidebar about "qualities" which make Same-Bito seem like they should be swimming in lava (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) rather than seas. How were talons supposed to be assigned? Another thing I didn't quite grasp was what happens to player characters who aren't in a mountain sentai. It seems like they might be considered courtiers and have to follow an entirely different set of renown... unless they revert to their changing breed's renown? How would you even go from one rank to another, anyway? There's enough printed in there about what color clothes to wear, but I only see one renown rite.

[SaurOps]

Talons and such are assigned, out of character, according to how your talk with your group pans out. Everyone agrees to take the role on. The same applies to trying to find a balance of Auspices. Not being in a Mountain Sentai affords more freedom in what everyone can be, but you can't get any pack benefits. Wave Sentai could even consist of other monsters, or even investigative hunters or Imbued, really.

My reception is that it's nice, but has certain flaws and gaps that make it frustrating. Romanization of every language is incredibly inconsistent and often bad, as in some cases, there is Legge-rendered Mandarin. Legge, incidentally, is so old that Wade-Giles was made to replace it, and Hanyu Pinyin replaced it decades ago in official capacities. It still didn't get it as bad as KotE did on that end, though.

Related is why try and set up the term hengeyoukai to refer to all Changers in the Beast Courts of the Emerald Mother. Later on, that was even downplayed, introducing a Mandarin term, Xiong Ren. As heavily as it dipped into Japanese folklore for various names and monsters, it left a giant hole in its adaptation by not having even one word about the Orochi. There's a hint given that might implicate that incident as being a reason for why Hakken are uncomfortable around the Middle Dragons, but I can probably just chalk that up to my own projection rather than any context clues other than that the Hakken revere Susano'o, slayer of the Eight-Branched Great Snake.

Who might have fallen to the Wyrm for sending violent storms. [Krieger] Whaaaaaat? [Krieger]

Lastly, I'd like to talk about treating the Beast Courts as an exotic locale that needs to be kept apart from typical Werewolf games. What I have to say about that, is that the book is very preachy about it, and that it is a bad idea. I'd even go so far as to say the opposite - that there should be Beast Courts territory, at minimum, in areas of North and South America, and anyone living around those areas should have at least one individual aside from a Stargazer that knows something about how to interact with them.

[Terraoblivion]

I haven't read the book, but based on how awful WW is at something as close to themselves as Europe, I have little expectation of it being anything but staggeringly racist. After, these are the people who made a clan of fairy-loving Celtic werewolves who drink and fight a lot and made all Scandinavians out to be vikings, rather than the extremely peaceful, orderly and homogeneous people we actually are according to statistics. They also made all of eastern Europe look like a mix of how it looked in Dracula and weird cold war stereotypes.

Also, the idea that Asia is some weird and mystical place that totally needs completely different groups than the rest of the world is kinda offensive all of its own and oWoD was pretty big on that. So, yeah, haven't read it, have no desire to in order to shield myself from the racism that's almost certain to be there.

[KillingAScarab]

Thanks for the responses. I guess to discuss this particular book, some discussion of White Wolf's practices at the time goes along with it. Terraoblivion, while I'm not looking to get you to read this book (I never even got much use out of it), I feel like your concerns may have been a bit unwarranted in this case. Ethnicity isn't touched upon at all (as far as I know), and there's even one point where a Corax narrator is discouraging any human prejudices toward nationality from being applied to other members of the Beast Courts. Of course, the section for every changing breed included amongst the Hengeyokai still has a "Stereotypes" sidebar for the other breeds. Still, the lack of any information regarding the humans the Hengeyokai would interact with at some point is not a completely good thing.

After looking at them long enough, something I almost always felt about World of Darkness books was there just wasn't enough there to populate the world. Forgotten Realms is a setting. Eberron is a setting. I have a sense now that the World of Darkness was a caricature, rather than a place; a lens you have to use to look at what you know. Any given Storyteller has a lot of work ahead of them without much support.

Looking over Hengeyokai again, but not from the standpoint of a potential player, I really get the feeling that it needed to be two books. Spin-off Kitsune into an entirely unique book and fill the rest of this one with Eastern Asia. The part which mentions the nations covered by the Middle Kingdom has a brief mention of the Vietnam War, the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the occupation of Tibet and the one child per family policy in China. There's nothing else even close to real world politics affecting the Beast Courts; Korea is just this place where the Ghural died out. Everywhere is pretty much summed up by, "the Centipede/Wyrm is rampant and the Kuei-jin must be having a great time." They could have listed some prominent courts/septs or dragon nests/caerns since they seem to focus more on the sparsely populated areas.

SaurOps, I think that the part about storms being a sign of Wyrm taint was concerning the Umbral side of that activity. Maybe to give Storytellers a Storm Eater from Wild West sort of plot thread? As for talons, I still didn't get much from the book out of what the directions of wind were actually meant to represent for a sentai. Obviously, the inner wind would be more spiritual in nature, but there are still four directions I'm clueless on.

Unfortunately, much of the rest of your points I'm too ignorant to comment on. You have put me on the path to learning a bit about translations, though.

[SaurOps]

I haven't read the book, but based on how awful WW is at something as close to themselves as Europe, I have little expectation of it being anything but staggeringly racist. After, these are the people who made a clan of fairy-loving Celtic werewolves who drink and fight a lot and made all Scandinavians out to be vikings, rather than the extremely peaceful, orderly and homogeneous people we actually are according to statistics.

The Fenrir aren't Scandanavian and Teutonic people. They're rage-filled monsters that had a long past that ran alongside those people. You're not going to find Get everywhere there are Germanic people, for two reasons. The first, obvious one is that Garou and Fera are extremely rare. The second is that, given the general rarity of Changers, multiple tribes of werewolves and types of Fera typically lurked among the same ethnic groups, and the least discriminating of them - Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers - simply gravitated to the newer settlements and edifices.

So, to recap, the Garou that were well known for dwelling around certain ethnic groups? Not really exemplary members of those cultures. In the case of the Fenrir and the Furies, in fact, they have anti-cultures that condemn that prominent figures of those cultures myths. The Get are longtime enemies to the Aesir, and the Furies likewise hold figures like Heracles and Perseus in utter contempt.


Thanks for the responses. I guess to discuss this particular book, some discussion of White Wolf's practices at the time goes along with it. Terraoblivion, while I'm not looking to get you to read this book (I never even got much use out of it), I feel like your concerns may have been a bit unwarranted in this case. Ethnicity isn't touched upon at all (as far as I know), and there's even one point where a Corax narrator is discouraging any human prejudices toward nationality from being applied to other members of the Beast Courts. Of course, the section for every changing breed included amongst the Hengeyokai still has a "Stereotypes" sidebar for the other breeds. Still, the lack of any information regarding the humans the Hengeyokai would interact with at some point is not a completely good thing.

After looking at them long enough, something I almost always felt about World of Darkness books was there just wasn't enough there to populate the world. Forgotten Realms is a setting. Eberron is a setting. I have a sense now that the World of Darkness was a caricature, rather than a place; a lens you have to use to look at what you know. Any given Storyteller has a lot of work ahead of them without much support.

Looking over Hengeyokai again, but not from the standpoint of a potential player, I really get the feeling that it needed to be two books. Spin-off Kitsune into an entirely unique book and fill the rest of this one with Eastern Asia. The part which mentions the nations covered by the Middle Kingdom has a brief mention of the Vietnam War, the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the occupation of Tibet and the one child per family policy in China. There's nothing else even close to real world politics affecting the Beast Courts; Korea is just this place where the Ghural died out. Everywhere is pretty much summed up by, "the Centipede/Wyrm is rampant and the Kuei-jin must be having a great time." They could have listed some prominent courts/septs or dragon nests/caerns since they seem to focus more on the sparsely populated areas.

And how people live in those areas, with special attention to children and the scrutiny paid to them, what with so many first ranker Changers being not long after their change and thus likely minors as the US would figure them. Oh, to be in a game that wasn't a bildungsroman...



SaurOps, I think that the part about storms being a sign of Wyrm taint was concerning the Umbral side of that activity. Maybe to give Storytellers a Storm Eater from Wild West sort of plot thread? As for talons, I still didn't get much from the book out of what the directions of wind were actually meant to represent for a sentai. Obviously, the inner wind would be more spiritual in nature, but there are still four directions I'm clueless on.

Unfortunately, much of the rest of your points I'm too ignorant to comment on. You have put me on the path to learning a bit about translations, though.

The directions of the wind are an unfortunate copy-over, it seems, from KotE. The South Wind is supposed to be forward-looking and not get along with tradition, the North Wind is hidebound and slavishly follows tradition, the East Wind deals with covering up the existence of monsters and other aspects of dealing with humans, the West Wind deals with the other world, and the Center Wind deals with the society of the monsters in question. I think they may have internalized it and expected people who bought Hengeyokai to have be familiar with KotE as well (where the Wind was also associated with a Daoist element; the Beast Courts, as noted, do not link them together as a matter of course, likely because the official court byline of what an element is doesn't use the Daoist setup). Talons and Winds essentially describe a spiritual and social alignment, respectively. Someone who is kind but very traditional could be their Sentai's Water Talon and North Wind, for example, while a rebellious firebrand who lurks on her own and seems touched or even just feels comfortable around metal might be the Sentai's Moon Talon and South Wind.

As for His Swift August Impetuousness Susano'o, they hinted so subtly that they might as well not have written the sidebar at all. One sentence more, or one changed sentence, could have given the implication that weight, but it just left the violent storms hanging... (sunglasses) in the air.

I collected a lot of info on the Beast Courts and language use, and know of other sites that are approaching the angle from the other side, such as this one (http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~iwasiman/foundation/wod/dancers/werewolf.htm), a site by Japanese W:tA fans*. I posted most of my thoughts on the WW boards, but those are down. I suppose I could post them on this board, too.

*I don't agree with their translation of Black Furies into Japanese, though, because they literally translated "anger" instead of Erinyes, Greek for "avengers".

[Asmodai]

I honestly love that book. The one thing that I was genuinley sorry about was the fact that it clearly the victim of the Count of Words. It presents an interesting setting and a brilliant framework for different breed interactions, but it just doesn't have the room to get into the details for some of these ideas. Oh and i found the art brilliant. It's loaded with Mel and Jeff Rebner, and those are some of my favorite WW artists.

I'm kinda dissapointed we won't be getting an updated Hengeyokai book for the W20, just a chapter in the new Changing Breeds book.

[hiryuu]

I honestly love that book. The one thing that I was genuinley sorry about was the fact that it clearly the victim of the Count of Words. It presents an interesting setting and a brilliant framework for different breed interactions, but it just doesn't have the room to get into the details for some of these ideas. Oh and i found the art brilliant. It's loaded with Mel and Jeff Rebner, and those are some of my favorite WW artists.

I'm kinda dissapointed we won't be getting an updated Hengeyokai book for the W20, just a chapter in the new Changing Breeds book.

I know, right? I want Shih, as well. Strike Force Zero is nice but can go die in a hole and become like five or six organizations instead >_>

While we're on it, yeah. Hengeyokai could've been an entire hardcover, seriously.

[SaurOps]

A timely occasion to remember to link this. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=74295) Also, the first stretch goal on the W20 Changing Breeds KS is a 5000 word boost for Beast Courts material, added onto the considerable 135,270 words available for free as a raw, text-only document, here. (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-w20-changing-breeds?ref=live)