The Shroud (Mods, Please Delete)

[Malachi Lemont]

I had a random idea for a D&D campaign setting, and I would like some help fleshing it out to make it better. Thanks.

The people refer to the living world as "the World Within the Shroud," or simply "The World Within." It is separated from the other, immortal world, or "World Beyond," by a magical barrier known as the Shroud. But strange creatures have been known to cross the barrier - creatures that few people have seen and lived to tell the tale. The world is populated by many non-human races. Humans are the focus of the story, no doubt, but the other races will be just as diverse and intricate.

I've got a magic system somewhat laid out already, which I can tell you more about later - but I'm not sure how to integrate magic into the plot. How much magic is too much? How much should be explained, and what should stay unexplained?

Mainly, I want this world project to convey two things: Fear and Beauty. If you can help me craft a setting that will be terrifying, yet glorious, and will make you want to live there, I'd appreciate your suggestions.

See the post below for information about the magic, geography, and fantasy races.


(I deleted a large portion of the original post because it is no longer relevant)

[Malachi Lemont]

I guess the main question is: what to do about the elves?

On the one hand, I have several reasons not to include them at all People will have certain expectations about elves such as magical powers, graceful beauty, affiliation with nature, skill with a bow, and all the rest. I desperately want to avoid making "elf" a shorthand for a dozen specific character traits. I also want to avoid the trap of making elves a "high and mighty race" who claim to be superior to humans despite the fact that...well...wait, they are superior to us. No, no, and no.

But on the other hand, there's a perfectly valid reason to include elves (or some other similar non-human). They're different enough from us that they fill us with fear and awe, yet they're similar to us that we can understand their culture after a bit of warming up to it. I'm having a really hard time expressing my thoughts in words, so perhaps you all could help me figure out what I'm looking for.

Basically, I want there to be several (2-12) intelligent races that are mostly human except for a few unique features. However, they will each have radically different cultures within each race, and between races. So, I'd like to have maybe 3 or 4 fully fleshed out races, including humans, and maybe 8 others that are "mysterious" and we only know a few things about them. I'd like to turn to world mythologies for guidance in creating these races. If you look past European myths, as I'm sure you already have, you discover some really great stuff.

So, where should I begin?

[Malachi Lemont]

Oh, and another thing.

My main concern, which is even more important than deciding what the elves will look like, is how the plot and setting will tie together. I want to be able to showcase a multiracial, multicultural setting without having the hero travel around on a predictable quest to convince all the good guys to work together to defeat the Big Bad Guy.

One option might be to have no quest at all. The hero simply stays in her hometown, and the foreigners come to her. Or maybe the villain is on a quest, and considers himself the hero of his own tale, and the hero is the destination rather than the traveler.

Another option would be that the protagonist (Gerda for now, though I'm not too attached to that name) would be a companion or sidekick on an adventure rather than the actual hero. Maybe she could be offered a leadership position and turn it down out of humility, even though the reader thinks she would have done a good job. Of course, the story has to revolve around her, so she's got to be pretty smart and tough and brave, but just not the epic savior of the universe that some might be expecting from a fantasy story.

So in other words, nothing's really set in stone yet. These are just the very humble beginnings of what I hope will be a nice fantasy story. I know you all have much to offer, so I'd appreciate your help.

[Waitingnomad]

I very much like the idea of the magical aspect of the world being separated from the mundane with the Shroud- it reminds me somewhat of the world of the demons in The Painted Man. I also see huge potential for expanding upon the origins of the Shroud- is it a magical barrier constructed aeons ago to protect the world from an ancient evil? (You mentioned George R. R. Martin, so this may bring to mind thoughts of the Wall) Is it a result of the deconstruction of barriers between two distinct worlds, now blending into one as those barriers fall down, perhaps as a result of years of arcane spellcasting and experimentation pulling away at the fabric of the Void. Is it in fact a path through the Void itself? Or the Plane of Shadow? There's a lot of room for expansion here, and the potential for racial fluff built into it, as you can justify the appearances of magical races through varying types of magical exposure- exposure to which humans were not exposed due to their origin in a mundane world.

This brings us onto elves; you said you wished, in a sense, to rewrite the racial stereotype of elf= graceful forest archers/ high and aloof ancient cultures, and so this vein of 'magical contamination' may provide avenue to do this. Depending on the way magics are implemented in your world (I don't know if this is incompatible with your model, however) elves may have once been humans that crossed the Shroud and set up home in the forests, exposing themselves and their children to forest magic and so, over many generations, their features were distorted and their lives extended. Alternately, if you wish to avoid the idea of 'forest elves' you could consider that upon discovering a world that gave them access to magic, they experimented with it to such an extend that their features were warped by it. Or perhaps the humans, struggling to adapt to a world so far beyond their understanding, were captured and experimented upon by an evil mage attempting to create a superior race with an affinity for magic- experimentation which resulted in twisted features and decreased physical strength, relegating them to second class citizens, cast into slums and used as a source of cheap labour.

[Malachi Lemont]

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. First I'd like to address the barrier between the magical and non-magical world.

Magic and Geography

I was thinking that there could be a large continent where humans originated, alongside other races, with alternating periods of peace and war. But after many centuries, the humans became frustrated with the expanding magical power of the other races, so they left in a mass exodus and founded a new empire on a new continent, originally uninhabited, across the sea.

It's in this "New World" where Gerda lives and has spend most of her life. Contact with the Old World is rare, and the leaders of the New World like to spread the myth that the Old World has fallen into decay and barbarism, where actually, the Old World is quite civilized. Most of the magic is on the Old World, so the ocean acts as a barrier between the two.

The New World Continent is much smaller, and is mostly non-magical, but magic has a way of finding its way in everywhere. I was thinking that in the New World, magicians would exist, but would generally be considered outcasts, and their powers are usually weak. Many people don't even believe in their powers at all. (More about the magic system later.) But in the Old World, some magic has become a normal part of society, while other, more dangerous magic remains the stuff of legend.

As for fantasy races, I'm still undecided about elves. I like your idea of having humans who "became" elves or "created" them. This could make for a much more interesting racial dynamic than if they had just lived side by side in bitter rivalry for centuries.

But I got to thinking about some other races I might use. The Jacklings, the Broge, and the Vay. All of them are quite similar to humans, but different enough to be called a separate species.

Races

The Broge: slightly shorter than humans, with short horns like goats and stout faces, the Broge are mostly farmers and herders who live in the hill country. They have few cities, and seem mostly content with their agrarian way of life. Many of their rituals are based entirely around food. The highest mark of honor for a Broge is to go a month without eating, although most only make it a week. They have designated feast days, where people gorge themselves in preparation for the next fast.

The Jacklings are a populous and ambitious race. They look mostly like humans except for the reddish tint to their skin and different body proportions. Their legs are quite long, but their torsos and arms are short, since they evolved to be constantly on the run. They reproduce quickly and have fast metabolisms. Humans, Broge, and Vay consider the Jacklings to be fiery and short-tempered, however, this is a stereotype that is not usually true.

The Vay are a tall, gray-skinned race that tend to shy away from the urban life. They instead congregate into tribes, usually with no more than 300 members. Some tribes are agricultural, but some are nomadic hunting bands. Others live on ships and make a living through fishing and trading, though these Vay are rare. The Vay elect Queens to lead each tribe, although the Queen is mostly a figurehead, as the men end up making the key decisions. Like all the other species, the Vay are quite patriarchal, but they claim to be kinder toward women than the Humans and Jacklings.


I might add some more races, or I could stop there. There's still room for some elves. What do you think?

[Waitingnomad]

A pleasure. I like the Broge a lot, and their association with agriculture and food as well as their goat-like appearance makes them seem like a very appealing, original and interesting race.

As for the Vay and the Jacklings, they seem as if they could be more distinct, both physically and culturally. Physically at least, they seem like two species that are lightly reskinned humans, and don't really seem distinctive enough in their own right to deserve their own race.
The Vay
Culturally, the Vay seem like they have a lot of potential for development that could be explored- I like the name, as it evokes the idea of a close-knit, insular society that are suspicious of outsiders and feircely protective of their 'Queen'. I do feel, however, that they Queen should play a more key role than just a figurehead- their species brings to mind the idea of spiders, and spider queens, and I would personally look toward taking them down the route of an established quasi-matriarchy, with a very strong focus on motherhood. This may manifest itself in the Queen representing an absolute authority in the tribe, but largely not playing a significant role in its management. Below her are 'old mothers', those women who have born children but are now too old, and below them being the 'mothers', who are those who have born children and are still of breeding age. These women would be looked to as figures of respect and authority within the tribe, and would take care of important social functions, such as trade negotiations and education. The men would deal primarily with the physical upkeep of the tribe, hunting, building and farming. 'Fathers' would hold positions of authority over men, with young women who have entered the age of majority but are yet to bear children being looked down upon by the rest of Vay society. The greatest honour within the tribe would thus to be to produce many children, for the glory of the tribe.

The Jacklings
I like the name, but again the species doesn't really seem to do anything beyond tweaking the human template. I like the name, and it is reflective of the fast metabolism, and make me think of a short-lived people that live their lives with vigor and intensity. They make me think in even measure of herd animals and dragonflies. Perhaps you could extend their physical differences beyond simply recolouring them to include more bug-like features, such as larger eyes, a thin layer of sensitive and rough body hair capable of picking up sensitive electromagnetic pulses in the air, warning them of incoming weather conditions and similar things- something to set them apart in a significant way.

As for the magic of the world, I really like it. The idea that the magicians left within the New World have weak magic is an interesting one- perhaps reflecting that magic power draws to some extent on the latent magic of the environment, and the 'atmosphere', as it were, of the new world is very low in this. The spreading of rumours that the Old World is barbaric is one of those tried-and-tested mechanics that leaves a lot of room for character and world development as Gerda discovers that all is not as she was told, so this is another good one. Perhaps the magicians of the New World are outcasts and magical criminals from the Old World, sent where their magic couldn't do harm by the judiciary of the Old World states- something that might serve to reinforce the purported sterotype of the barbarism of the Old World (as all visitors from it have proven to be cruel and dangerous).

Finally, thank you for your comments on my thread- the subject of different races roles in the setting wasn't something that had occurred to me to include, and I feel that including this dynamic has has helped to add depth to my world.

[Mx.Silver]

If I may be frank for a moment, you say this is being designed for a novel. The thing about that is that, in the vast majority of case, the world-building needs to serve the novel. If you want to 'showcase your setting' then that should be because your setting is built upon a thematic foundation and travelling around will show it. At the moment I'm not seeing that. All I'm seeing is plugging things you think might be neat into the 'generic fantasy template'. That can work, but not as the focus of a story. This is why it worries me when you start talking about changing your narrative to 'better showcase your setting', because that is probably not how you should be prioritising things.


Anyway, onto specifics.





On the one hand, I have several reasons not to include them at all People will have certain expectations about elves such as magical powers, graceful beauty, affiliation with nature, skill with a bow, and all the rest. I desperately want to avoid making "elf" a shorthand for a dozen specific character traits. I also want to avoid the trap of making elves a "high and mighty race" who claim to be superior to humans despite the fact that...well...wait, they are superior to us. No, no, and no.
The thing about elves is that they're something of a cliche at this point. Even the subversions on the stereotype are looking a bit tired.



I might add some more races, or I could stop there. There's still room for some elves. What do you think?
Firstly: how did these races pose enough of a threat to convince humanity to up sticks and more across an ocean? Because something had to drive them away from their ancestral homeland, and I'm not really seeing the Broge pulling that one off, somehow.

Waitingnomad's points about the Vey and Jacklings appearance are important. Particularly because there are humans that have a 'reddish tint' to their skin.

This also also brings us to another rather important question: what do your humans look like? Because if your humanity is largely one single empire, as you say it is, said empire is going to have to be pretty ethnically diverse if you want to avoid running into some rather unfortunate implications.

[Malachi Lemont]

I am so sorry for creating this thread. My ideas about fantasy races are clearly not going to work. I might keep the idea of the story and the magic, but you all are right that the Vay, Jacklings, and Broge make no sense in context. I promise not to use this setting for a novel. Ever.

But anyway, just for D&D purposes, here are some pictures I made of examples of the Vay, Jacklings, and Broge. Maybe they would work for a campaign if not for an actual book:


Vay:
http://images.wikia.com/conworld/images/d/d1/Vay.png

Jacklings:
http://images.wikia.com/conworld/images/5/5b/Jackling.png

Broge:
http://images.wikia.com/conworld/images/0/0b/Broge.png

Also, I will edit the original post to reflect this change in priorities. Thank you for bringing me back to common sense.


MODS: Please delete this thread at once if you find any problems with it. I will not be upset.

[Waitingnomad]

I think the main problem is in the idea of applying a D&D campaign world-building mechanic to a novel, rather than any of the ideas you have actually expressed. A setting like this would be an ideal basis for a campaign, as building a rich setting with many levels of complexity makes for a rich platform which which your players can interact with the world. Not to mention, that in such a setting the story is made by the players, and only guided by the DM.

As expressed by Mr. Silver, you are attempting to conform your narrative to the world, and making it of secondary importance. In a novel such as this, the focus is all in the narrative, with the world providing a framework on which to front it. A murder mystery, tends to be very character-driven, and so you would be unlikely to get the chance to explore the rich world you are creating for it. In fact, doing so would likely detract from the story as a whole, as it would be gratuitous. The Broge, Vay and Jacklings were not poor ideas, just ones inconsistent with your intention. Such peoples would valuable in a campaign setting, where they could be interacted with by PCs- not so much in a novel setting that only very lightly touches upon their existence, if at all.

The points I expressed in my earlier comments were establishing that if you create a new people then they should be sufficiently distinct in their own right to deserve a place in the setting. Providing a complex and engaging alien culture that can be explored in depth is much more interesting than providing a number of new races that provide only incremental variations from an established norm. I merely wished to elucidate the value of providing such a depth and distinction to your creations; you must ask yourself what they add to the setting, and what would be lost from it if they were not there- would your world be significantly different because of their absence, and if so, why?

Anyway, I hope that this has helped you focus your direction for your novel. I am sure that such an idea can find value in a campaign setting, and encourage that it be explored. Very few people ever strike off on the perfect idea first try- building an engaging world requires a lot of time dedicated to refining and editing ones world and you may not settle upon something you're happy with until the nth revision somewhere long down the line.

[Malachi Lemont]

Thank you so much for your kind words. I agree 100% with what you said. Novel writing and role-playing games belong in separate universes, even if they can sometimes overlap. My whole mindset going into this was wrong. Thanks for clearing things up. I think I will just let this thread slide off the comment board and be forgotten, but I will hold onto my ideas. I greatly appreciate your guidance.