Vorpal! Overrated or over-powered?

[Korivan]

Get alot of love for the vorpal from people. Don't consider it overpowered at all though.

Thoughts?

[Harrow]

Vorpal isn't anywhere near worth the price. It only works on a 20, so it's more rare than a critical hit, and it won't take out a large portion of very dangerous enemies.

[sonofzeal]

Obscenely expensive, and quintiscentially unreliable. Textbook "slap this on an artifact sword to make it seem uber-nifty without actually breaking the game".

The minimum list price for a Vorpal weapon is 72,000 gp. If you can't get a hell of a lot more power for a fraction of the price, you're doing something wrong.

[ArcturusV]

Artifact of older editions. Back with Called Shots being in the game it was more useful. But without them, decidedly less so.

[Korivan]

That's more or less what I was thinking. Sure, even after undead (except vampires), constructs, oozes, plants, incomporeal, some outsiders/aberations/monsters, there's still plenty of creatures out there to kill with it. You still only have 5% chance at working, assuming you get enough shots in to get up the odds of hitting, and have to confirm it.

Does it work against immunity to crits? If not, that makes it worse still.

[Emperor Ing]

Vorpal will only work 5% of the time, and that's assuming it's slapped on a compatible weapon and used against enemies that are vulnerable to crits at all. It is by no means overpowered, and even if you somehow have ridiculous luck and you're landing 20s at obscene rates, it's not difficult for GMs to counter this with oozes, constructs, undead, or any number of magic items or spells that can grant immunity to crits being relatively easy to get. The Greater Gem of Fortification from Draconomnomnomicon comes to mind.

For the same price you're better off with a Keen, Brilliant Energy weapon. And even then that's probably not the best bang you're gonna get with your buck. Put simply, Vorpal sucks. It might have been awesome in 3.0 (where it autokills when you land a crit, not just a 20) but in 3.5 (which is what i'm assuming you're playing) it's a newb-trap. Avoid these weapons like the plague, and if you get one from treasure, sell it at your earliest convenience.

[Ravens_cry]

Neither. I might possibly use it on a late game TWF build some time, but even then, not sure it is worth it.
A much cheaper idea would be to load up on sleep arrows and hope they roll a 1 on their save. Same chance as you rolling a 20.

[Der_DWSage]

Indeed. There are rare outliers I could see for Vorpal weapons (Halfling Machine-gun Master Thrower build with a boatload of Returning Vorpal Daggers) but on the whole? Underpowered for their price. If they were closer to a +3, then I could see it being worth it...for low-strength characters that rely more on the effects of their weapon than the actual damage dealt.

[Harrow]

Let's do a little thought experiment, shall we? Let's assume we have a first level character, either Fighter or Barbarian, and give him a +1 Vorpal Longsword. Does it make him appreciably more powerful than just a +1 Longsword? He sometimes autokills enemies instead of possibly getting a critical, which at level one would probably kill most enemies anyway. Could he charge something really strong and kill it in one hit? No. No he could not. It would have to not have reach, need a head, he would have to get a 20, it would be a single target attack... under optimal conditions, it may let a low level melee character kill something he isn't supposed to. More likely, he'll get himself killed trying.

Now, give him the +1 longsword and the gold difference (70,000 gold) in whatever other gear that he's free to choose. Does this make him appreciably stronger? Well, +4 STR, CON, AC, and to all saves leaves him 6,000 left, which makes him much stronger than he was before.

Now, this is playing with the numbers a bit. A character who can actually afford a Vorpal blade within WBL isn't going to benefit as much from an extra 70,000, as they are already expected to have many of the things the level 1 character would probably spend his money on. But, by this point, there are more defenses against it. Vorpal is just as unreliable as it is expensive, there are plenty of other things you could be spending money on to actually improve your chances of making it out of a fight alive.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Nitpick: since vorpal doesn't trigger unless you confirm the crit, it's only a 4.75% chance to activate if you could hit the target with anything but a natural 1. In the case of a low-op figther or a particularly tanky enemy, it only gets worse.

[Carth]

Better lucky than good pairs nicely with a vorpal weapon, one fell into my lap in a campaign once, and having a natural 1 turn into a natural 20 for decapitation is pretty nice, even if it's only once a day. :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

Nitpick: since vorpal doesn't trigger unless you confirm the crit, it's only a 4.75% chance to activate if you could hit the target with anything but a natural 1. In the case of a low-op figther or a particularly tanky enemy, it only gets worse.
I don't think this seems like a nitpick at all. If your character is hitting on everything but a natural one, then the fighter is probably doing way more damage on average by using power attack. While the fighter's super big +20 hit is probably going to confirm every time, his final +6 iterative is much less likely to do so. Also, the best way to have a high chance of vorpalling (totally a word) is by using two vorpal weapons with two weapon fighting. This has the combined effect of reducing your average damage from the first point, and further lowering your chance to confirm on the second.

[Tvtyrant]

I think the biggest problem with the vorpal weapon is that you are one shotting a lot of things anyways. If it was a health-bloat system like 4E it would be nice because it would significantly up your average damage. In 3.5 everything dies in 1-3 hits anyways, so it hardly matters if you have a 1/20 chance for instant death.

Even more so is the existence of Save or Die spells, which have a much better than 1/20 chance of success and do the same thing better. In the Wu Jen's case, they have a spell that literally does the same thing with a better success chance.

[Carth]

Eek, one vorpal weapon is expensive enough, but if one were just trying to fool around, I can actually see two weapon bloodstorm blade vorpal throwing build actually being fun.

[BWR]

Considering the number of 20s rolled in my games, I would say it is very good indeed, if my players ever get a vorpal weapon.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't think this seems like a nitpick at all. If your character is hitting on everything but a natural one, then the fighter is probably doing way more damage on average by using power attack. While the fighter's super big +20 hit is probably going to confirm every time, his final +6 iterative is much less likely to do so. Also, the best way to have a high chance of vorpalling (totally a word) is by using two vorpal weapons with two weapon fighting. This has the combined effect of reducing your average damage from the first point, and further lowering your chance to confirm on the second.

What this amounts to, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that vorpal is most likely to actually trigger when you least need it to remain a viable threat.

Unless you're built around the idea of making vorpal effective (by optimizing crit' confirmation, and finding ways to force a natural 20 <better lucky than good>) it's just not.

In any case, my point was that, in isolation, it's actually -less- than a 5% chance of triggering on any individual attack.

[Emperor Ing]

Unless you're built around the idea of making vorpal effective (by optimizing crit' confirmation, and finding ways to force a natural 20 <better lucky than good>) it's just not.
even if your crit range is 8-20 (which believe me is not that hard) you still need to roll a 20 to trigger a Vorpal decapitation. Really the best way to try and trigger Vorpal is to make as many attacks as you can per round, each of which has that 5% chance of rolling that sweet sweet Nat 20 nectar. This can be done by TWFing and getting a Pounce effect from Lion Totem Barbarian dip or Pouncing Charge maneuver from Tome of Weeaboo Fightan Magic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

even if your crit range is 8-20 (which believe me is not that hard) you still need to roll a 20 to trigger a Vorpal decapitation. Really the best way to try and trigger Vorpal is to make as many attacks as you can per round, each of which has that 5% chance of rolling that sweet sweet Nat 20 nectar. This can be done by TWFing and getting a Pounce effect from Lion Totem Barbarian dip or Pouncing Charge maneuver from Tome of Weeaboo Fightan Magic.

I sad crit'-confirmation; not crit'-range or general crit'-fishing (both range and confirmation)

E.G. Power critical (+4 to confirmation rolls) helps a vorpal build while imp' critical (double threat range) does not.

[Vaz]

It's a lovely upgrade but it's randomness is a bit of a killer, removing the randomness from the game is something I consider to be the core of min-maxing, and having an ability trigger on 1/2 hits is not a good thing, especially.

However, for loot, it's a very nice thing, but not something I'd especially go out of my way to purchase.

[Erik Vale]

As has been said. It's a Trap!

But when it works on the right enemy, it's a plot breaker.
"Oh, I'm sorry Bob, were you planning on running away last Tuesday."
*Finishes mounting stuff head on the mantle piece*
"There, just perfect. It's always nice when things go well."

[TuggyNE]

even if your crit range is 8-20 (which believe me is not that hard) you still need to roll a 20 to trigger a Vorpal decapitation. Really the best way to try and trigger Vorpal is to make as many attacks as you can per round, each of which has that 5% chance of rolling that sweet sweet Nat 20 nectar. This can be done by TWFing and getting a Pounce effect from Lion Totem Barbarian dip or Pouncing Charge maneuver from Tome of Weeaboo Fightan Magic.

Especially if you mix in some Thri-Kreen and Totemist/PsyWar natural weapon spam. Vorpal ALL the things!

Edit: Hmm, might be a little annoying to get slashing type weapons, I guess. Probably more shenanigans needed there.

[Vaz]

Insectile Thri-Keen Totemist Kensai. Vorpal Keen Returning Throwing Fists (finding a way to count Fists as Slashing)?

[Der_DWSage]

You'd be looking for the Versatile Unarmed Strike, PhB II, p.85. Technically it's for an unarmed strike, but...if you're going for cheese anyhow, why not go for the gouda?

[Chronos]

Wouldn't an insectile thri-keen totemist's relevant attacks be claws anyway, not fists? Those are already slashing.

[Fouredged Sword]

Vaporal is nasty in the hands of any cleric with 5th level spells.

Surge of fortune allows you to treat a roll as a nat 20.

You can spend a 5th level slot to trigger vaporal.

It gets silly. I had an assassin in a game with a vaporal arrow (the slashing kind) bought at 1 50th the price (buying just one) and a scroll of surge of fortune.

The DM banned that spell and forbid the purchase of magic arrow in units of less than 50.

[Ernir]

Posting in a Vorpal thread to mention Surge of Fortune. It's one of the more reliable ways I know to get a kill.

EDIT: Swordsage'd...


The DM banned that spell

I'd probably just ban Vorpal instead, if it's this combo that's the worry.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Vorpal is not something you buy, it's just something you hope to get on your weapon. It's so terrible because it works so rarely, but when it does work, it's the best thing ever.


E.G.
DM: The cleric walks up into melee distance to do a finger of death (I don't know why), after seeing you get launched via telekenesis into his friend. Make an AOO.

Player: I roll a... NATURAL 20.

DM: ... *rolls save* He's dead...

Those are the best moments at the table.

[Nagukuk]

Two sessions ago Vorpal killed a very very nasty deep dragon we encountered, in the first round, first attack of the 3rd pc in the init order.

[Callin]

I always thought the Sharpness Property was way better and should have been ported over into 3rd and not Vorpal.

[eggynack]

Two sessions ago Vorpal killed a very very nasty deep dragon we encountered, in the first round, first attack of the 3rd pc in the init order.
That doesn't make it good though. There are opportunity costs that must be considered here. You could be using another weapon that does its damage more consistently, or you could be using other items that do more. Basically, at any level where you can afford a vorpal sword, there's probably a build that could kill that dragon at the same rate of efficiency or higher. You're resting all of the hopes for your build on arbitrary random chance, and that's not something that I consider overpowered.

[Korivan]

It seems that if your getting your crit range to single numbers, and your multiplier up a few notches, you might as well just figure your gonna kill it with hp loss, then beheading. But that's if DM doesn't swap out things immune to crits/vorpal. And you kinda have to here and there as a dm, just to keep them on their toes.

[Metahuman1]

Make Vorporal a good property:

Step 1: Make it trigger on the weapons threat range coming up on an unmodified die roll. (Meaning Keen and Improved Crit and the like can make it happen more often.)

Step 2: Make it trigger regardless of weather an opponent is Immune to Crits. I roll my natural 17 on my +1 Keen Vorporal Longsword and make a confirmation roll, off with the head.

Step 3: Knock the Price down. +3 or +4 Property.

[137beth]

I've seen vorpal be effective in a homebrew system, where damage was significantly lower and NPCs got as many chances to avoid death as PCs (which was a lot). Anything which killed someone without death saves in that system was really nice, and negating their health 5% of the time was awesome.
In 4E I could see it being better, due to really high hp, but it isn't even an instant kill in 4E.

In 3.5, it has one use: when you find it in a treasure hoard, sell it--you'll get enough to buy a significantly better weapon for a fraction of the cost.

[ericgrau]

Simplification: Confirming a crit is the same chance as hitting, so 1/20 vorpal is worth it when your hits do damage that is less than 1/20th of the target's hp.

The average CR 20 monster has 410 hp. So if you're around level 18-22 and you do less than 20 damage, vorpal is worth it. You can get +17.5 damage with +5 worth of misc enchants.

Well... it might be worth it at epic levels.

Another consideration is high variance. High variance is good in desperate situations. Or with hit and run tactics until it finally lands. Or if you can get a reroll ability. There are also ways to boost your chance of crit confirmation by a lot, and then you set up a "flurry of misses" situation with a billion attacks since you only care about nat 20s anyway. It's not a good general purpose tactic on its own though.

[nedz]

Vorpal is over-priced if anything. There are better things you can buy for that sort of money. But the real question is: is it fun ?

There are cheaper ways of acquiring it: Get yourself a Razor Boar as an AC or something. Now would this be worth it ?

Razor Boar — Magical Beast (MM2 p220)

[137beth]

Well... it might be worth it at epic levels.
Sorry, I have to jump in with epic experience:
WBL increases really, really fast at epic levels. Contrary to what the developers seemed to suggest in the ELH, power increase actually speeds up. You should never be dealing less than 1/20th of a monsters hp total (oh, and eventually, everyone can cast all the nonepic spells they will ever need from items, and has cross-class ranks in UMD with an item giving at least +30 to UMD, so damage dealt with a melee attack is irrelevant...)

[Seharvepernfan]

This is why I made a vorpal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14873536&postcount=1) fix for my houserules.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Does it work against immunity to crits? If not, that makes it worse still.

Yes it does, note the description of the Vorpal special ability. "Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads." Normally such creatures are flat out immune to critical hits there is no reason to state that decapitation might not be fatal if it wasn't a threat to begin with.

"not subject critical hits" doesn't mean the critical hit doesn't happen you just don't feel the effects. And Vorpal weapon severs the head on the roll of a natural 20 followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit. It happens in conjunction of a critical hit not because of it.

[Carth]

Lord V is correct, I believe it's stated somewhere that you still roll to confirm criticals against crit immune creatures, because other things that fire on a critical hit but are not themselves 'part of the critical' can still trigger. This doesn't just apply to vorpal weapons.

[Ravens_cry]

Lord V is correct, I believe it's stated somewhere that you still roll to confirm criticals against crit immune creatures, because other things that fire on a critical hit but are not themselves 'part of the critical' can still trigger. This doesn't just apply to vorpal weapons.
For example, the 'burst' weapon properties I believe.

[StreamOfTheSky]

For PCs: Overrated
For NPCs: Overpowered

It's not worth the price for a PC, plain and simple.

For an NPC, it means any time you have one with it, all of his attacks have somewhere near a 5% chance (how close depends on how high he needs to roll to confirm, but it's probably at least a 3% chance in the end) of insta-killing a PC, no save or anything to resist, just pure dumb random luck on the NPC's part.

[TuggyNE]

For example, the 'burst' weapon properties I believe.

I know this is a thing in DDO, and I figured they got it from somewhere, but I haven't actually seen the rules for it in 3.5. Any idea where they are?

[ArcturusV]

Should be in the DMG. Flaming Burst, Icy Burst, Shocking Burst, Thundering. Page 224-225.

[TuggyNE]

Should be in the DMG. Flaming Burst, Icy Burst, Shocking Burst, Thundering. Page 224-225.

Well sure enough (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#magicWeaponsandCriticalHits). How handy.

[Andezzar]

Make Vorporal a good property:

Step 1: Make it trigger on the weapons threat range coming up on an unmodified die roll. (Meaning Keen and Improved Crit and the like can make it happen more often.)

Step 2: Make it trigger regardless of weather an opponent is Immune to Crits. I roll my natural 17 on my +1 Keen Vorporal Longsword and make a confirmation roll, off with the head.

Step 3: Knock the Price down. +3 or +4 Property.Ouch that makes it very powerful in the hands of NPCs. Being unaffected by losing one's head is much more difficult to achieve for PCs than for NPCs (which often are monsters).

[Fouredged Sword]

I would make a Vaporal enhancement that was +1, could olny be applied to a keen weapon, and increase the crit multiplier by one.

I dislike "and the target is dead" abilities. They are too easy to abuse.

[Vaz]

Auto-correct playing you up? I keep seeing mention of "Vaporal" not "Vorpal".

[Starbuck_II]

That's more or less what I was thinking. Sure, even after undead (except vampires), constructs, oozes, plants, incomporeal, some outsiders/aberations/monsters, there's still plenty of creatures out there to kill with it. You still only have 5% chance at working, assuming you get enough shots in to get up the odds of hitting, and have to confirm it.

Does it work against immunity to crits? If not, that makes it worse still.

It work against Crit immunity as it works vs Vampires.

[Augmental]

I would make a Vaporal enhancement that was +1, could olny be applied to a keen weapon, and increase the crit multiplier by one.

I dislike "and the target is dead" abilities. They are too easy to abuse.

Why should it only be applicable to keen weapons?

[Fouredged Sword]

Think of it as improved Keen. I guess that you could have it stand alone but I think it is worth more than a +1, but less that +2. Having it be a +1 with prereqs splits the difference.

[Nagukuk]

That doesn't make it good though. There are opportunity costs that must be considered here. You could be using another weapon that does its damage more consistently, or you could be using other items that do more. Basically, at any level where you can afford a vorpal sword, there's probably a build that could kill that dragon at the same rate of efficiency or higher. You're resting all of the hopes for your build on arbitrary random chance, and that's not something that I consider overpowered.

I'm not saying everyone should run out and buy one, but our main damage dealer did minor damage to the dragon, my character missed with 3 TOUCH attacks, and the only people that even knew there was a vorpal in play was the DM and the player who owned it. SO when the head came off it was an EXCITING SURPRISE!



Yes it is expensive, I agree with who ever posted above about the sharpness weapons being more "fun".


But if you were going to "fix" a vorpal perhaps making it work the "old school way" instead of chopping a head if you threaten a crit, which as we know can with the right setup threatening can easily be 50% or more some times.

Make the Vorpal range (like old school) based on the +magic value of the blade - there for a +1 vorpal kills on a 20 a +3 vorpal kills on a 17-20 etc

make it automatic or require confirmation, make a variance based on size of the target etc...

That really does not "fix" complaints about the cost but oh well.

[Andezzar]

make a variance based on size of the target etc...That would indeed be a good idea. a small or smaller creature severing the head of a colossal dragon in a single attack with its vorpal dagger is just plain ridiculous.

[Agincourt]

I'm not saying everyone should run out and buy one, but our main damage dealer did minor damage to the dragon, my character missed with 3 TOUCH attacks, and the only people that even knew there was a vorpal in play was the DM and the player who owned it. SO when the head came off it was an EXCITING SURPRISE!


Usually dragons are really easy to hit with touch attacks. They have low dexterity and are usually large or bigger. Maybe you build needs tweaking if you missed with three touch attacks? One or two could be unlucky, but three...

[Andezzar]

Usually dragons are really easy to hit with touch attacks. They have low dexterity and are usually large or bigger. Maybe you build needs tweaking if you missed with three touch attacks? One or two could be unlucky, but three...Or the dragon could have that spell that turns its natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I thought of an alternative to Vorpal.

On a successful critical hit using the weapons natural threat range.(no keen, no improved critical). The target must make a fortitude save DC 10+one half the damage dealt or die.

In essence is a coup de grace but a lower saving throw. Now quite sure of the power of it though....

[Ravens_cry]

I thought of an alternative to Vorpal.

On a successful critical hit using the weapons natural threat range.(no keen, no improved critical). The target must make a fortitude save DC 10+one half the damage dealt or die.

In essence is a coup de grace but a lower saving throw. Now quite sure of the power of it though....
Still pretty much instant death on all but a 20 at the level vorpal would be even remotely affordable.

[Augmental]

Think of it as improved Keen. I guess that you could have it stand alone but I think it is worth more than a +1, but less that +2. Having it be a +1 with prereqs splits the difference.

But two +1 weapon enchantments adds up to a +2 weapon bonus anyways. :smallconfused:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Make Vorporal a good property:

Step 1: Make it trigger on the weapons threat range coming up on an unmodified die roll. (Meaning Keen and Improved Crit and the like can make it happen more often.)

Step 2: Make it trigger regardless of weather an opponent is Immune to Crits. I roll my natural 17 on my +1 Keen Vorporal Longsword and make a confirmation roll, off with the head.

Step 3: Knock the Price down. +3 or +4 Property.

1. No. God no. Never. Way too broken. Instant death anytime you roll a 15-20 (and confirm, but there are ways to make that an utter certainty)? Lol, nope. Actually, I'm being too naïve... there's ways to get below a 15-20. *smacks forehead* Silly me, I forgot things like Disciple of Dis exist!

2. It already does this.

3. For what it does currently? Sure, I guess. I'd rather just remove it from the game entirely for being so unbalanced, but whatever. Along with your #1 *also* reduce the price? LOL, NOPE!


Think of it as improved Keen. I guess that you could have it stand alone but I think it is worth more than a +1, but less that +2. Having it be a +1 with prereqs splits the difference.

I'm not convinced a +1 multiplier is worth the same as doubled threat range, let alone more. I'd just make it a +1 with no pre-reqs that adds +1 to the crit multiplier. Maybe say a weapon cannot both be vorpal and keen / affected by keen edge or improved critical if you think it's unbalanced.

[Threadnaught]

Vorpal has it's uses.

First of all, it's an instant kill on the Jabberwock.

Secondly, if you manage to roll the .25-5% chance it takes to confirm/hit. Instant beheading. :smallbiggrin:


Thirdly, as a DM. I'm going to enjoy teasing my players with one of these. :smallamused:

[ericgrau]

Sorry, I have to jump in with epic experience:
WBL increases really, really fast at epic levels. Contrary to what the developers seemed to suggest in the ELH, power increase actually speeds up. You should never be dealing less than 1/20th of a monsters hp total (oh, and eventually, everyone can cast all the nonepic spells they will ever need from items, and has cross-class ranks in UMD with an item giving at least +30 to UMD, so damage dealt with a melee attack is irrelevant...)

Your total damage may not but your +5 equivalent damage from enchantments will deal less than 1/20th of a monster's hp at epic. No one in their right mind would wield measly +1 vorpals at epic, you throw on vorpal with whatever else. You do need to do better than break even because some things are immune, but eventually epic monster hp gets high enough.

With all the potential abuse people are already noticing on better vorpal, it may be that vorpal is intentionally underpowered and abuse is expected just to hit par.

[CosmicOccurence]

Not worth it. There are too many ways to bypass critical hits for it to be worth the price.

[137beth]

Your total damage may not but your +5 equivalent damage from enchantments will deal less than 1/20th of a monster's hp at epic. No one in their right mind would wield measly +1 vorpals at epic, you throw on vorpal with whatever else. You do need to do better than break even because some things are immune, but eventually epic monster hp gets high enough.

With all the potential abuse people are already noticing on better vorpal, it may be that vorpal is intentionally underpowered and abuse is expected just to hit par.
Assuming you optimize your build/items for dealing damage in melee (which is really, really bad, but whatever) it should be easy to deal more than 1/20th of a monster's hp in one hit, no matter how high you go, unless it is a wildly inappropriate challenge range.
And even if for some reason you couldn't deal enough damage, it would still be better to get an item to cast spells from--save-or-lose has a better chance of working than vorpal.