Need Help Dealing with Antisocial PC's

[Paperback]

So, I am running my first ever campaign on the Pathfinder system, with a core party of five people (and two others who pop in and out).This party consists of: Our regular dungeonmaster who is letting me control a game, an experienced player who shows up but will spend half of the time sleeping on the floor, one player who's only played D&D for a few months and wants to min-max everything, one brand new player who is making an effort to understand the rules as we show him them, and another brand new player who is still struggling to add up modifiers.

I have one problem with this group. None of them are comfortable or experienced enough with the idea of roleplaying with NPC's. While part of this might be my own fault for character portrayal, I have tried to ease them into contact with a few NPC's who I can get them to talk to for ten minutes or so. However, if it is not directly relevant and crucial to the current plot I cannot get them to talk to any NPC's. It got to a point a session or two ago where, instead of walking into a town to make a special order, they wanted to sneak in and steal the supplies they needed. (They only didn't follow through with this because I threatened to remove their lawful and good alignments from them.)

Now, I have been able to work around this so far, but I have come to a hill that they must cross. One of the so importantly plot relevant NPC's is... an enemy. (Gasp!) My group has been following the "Punch First, then realize that a dead person can't answer questions" philosophy, or the "Run away really fast" philosophy when it comes to enemies. This one particular NPC has been chasing them all around the continent for a MacGuffin that the characters got in an early session. I require my party to face this NPC so that he can drop bits of plot information and move the group away from the rinse-and-repeat session plans that I've been throwing at them to get to this encounter. I know exactly how I want them to face him, too, but I need a way to get them to the location in space I want them.

The location that I want to get them to is the top of a skyscraper in the center of the city, so that they can see the city get besieged from all directions as The plot-important boss NPC bursts down the door behind them, leaving them with no way to escape. Thus FORCING them to have a conversation, even while they battle!

My problem now is getting them up there. How to Railroad the Party without them realizing that they are being Railroaded? I know the common answer from this forum is to steal something from them and they'll go after it, but the MacGuffin in this case is a bracer which won't come off without taking the arm with it. (I would think about stealing the person, but the party has grown paranoid enough about me that they all now sleep in the same room. I haven't even tried anything yet!)

The idea that I am toying around with in my head is this; There is another NPC villain (stereotypical CE Joker expy) that they met before who they couldn't kill, and they absolutely hate his guts. They would run into some of the lackeys that are preparing to siege the city above (they are currently in the sewers), and interrogation would take them to this NPC. This NPC would then gleefully lead them on a chase through the sewers and up to the top of the building, where he'll claim he brought them to the "Best seats to watch the show start!" The siege would begin, the plot-relevant NPC would break down the door, and the Joker expy would jump off the roof laughing like a madman. (He, unlike the party, makes use of spells like feather fall).

Before I follow through on this course of action,I would like to ask the playground if they have any other ideas, original or generic, that could help me face them off against my Boss NPC (The rooftop battle being completely discard-able). If prompted, I could go into more information about my campaign and the nuances involved.

((tl;dr How do I railroad a party without them hating me for it, discarding the "Steal something from them" bit?))

[Sith_Happens]

"Punch First, then realize that a dead person can't answer questions"

Nitpick: Yes they can (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/speak-with-dead).

[Waar]

How do I railroad a party without them hating me for it, discarding the "Steal something from them" bit?))
Generally you don't :smalltongue:
The easiest way would probably be to aquire their ooc coooperation :smallwink:
Also take it easy with the "require" and the "FORCING", stuff like that can easily go wrong. additionally talking 10 minutes with the same NPC (in a row that is) is hardly that short :smallsmile:

[HuskyBoi]

There are a couple of ways to deal with this, perhaps the best of which is an out-of-character solution. Have a good chat with your players, and try to make them understand that sometimes they NEED to listen to NPCs or they will miss out on important information that may be crucial to their survival.

As for railroading- oh, never do that. If the PCs decide to stab and kill the plot-crucial villain before he can get out important exposition, they have to deal with the consequences (especially if you've already had a chat with them). I wouldn't recommend a straight-up "rocks fall, everyone dies" consequence, but this is fairly easy to set up.

For example: the PCs discover a map leading to a mysterious cave, supposedly full of monsters and treasure. So far, so normal. But have an NPC around to lend some important information, such as a password, a warning about particular monsters and their weakness, or tunnel to avoid, or some form of preparations the PCs should take. If he's killed before he can get out information, the PCs are suddenly facing a tough fight which they will have to run from (leaving all that lovely treasure and XP) because they aren't equipped with the information necessary to win. After the session you can explain (calmly and politely- don't make it sound like an accusation) that the NPC they just skewered had the relevant information and had they not killed him, the adventure might have been more successful.

This is all part of learning to play the game. I've actually just finished a campaign with a group of new players, one of who played a rogue who kept stealing from other party members- until he learned that if he does that, the other party members will tie him to a pole and he has to sit out of all the encounters with foes he could be happily sneak-attacking. The character was indignant (which is fine roleplaying), but the player understood that he can't keep stealing from other party members because if done excessively, it annoys people.

I hope that helps somewhat!

EDIT: I should point out, we also discussed with that player out of character why he couldn't keep stealing from party members. Always introduce out-of-character solutions before in-character ones, otherwise players can feel they're being punished for (in their opinion) good roleplaying.

[Paperback]

Nitpick: Yes they can (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/speak-with-dead).
My group didn't have all that much foresight back in the early levels. Now most of them deal nonlethal damage in case this comes up again.


Also take it easy with the "require" and the "FORCING", stuff like that can easily go wrong. additionally talking 10 minutes with the same NPC (in a row that is) is hardly that short :smallsmile:
This is the first, and hopefully the only, time that I will absolutely require them to speak with a certain character etc. I just need to give them more options on who to go to so the plot can branch out more.

And ten minutes with an NPC in real time might not seem like much, but when your group constantly breaks out into chatter and arguing it seems like it could have gone a bit shorter.

There are a couple of ways to deal with this, perhaps the best of which is an out-of-character solution. Have a good chat with your players, and try to make them understand that sometimes they NEED to listen to NPCs or they will miss out on important information that may be crucial to their survival. Funny, I never considered the direct approach like this. I suppose I will have to talk to them about their paranoid desire to not talk to anyone.


As for railroading- oh, never do that. If the PCs decide to stab and kill the plot-crucial villain before he can get out important exposition, they have to deal with the consequences (especially if you've already had a chat with them). I wouldn't recommend a straight-up "rocks fall, everyone dies" consequence, but this is fairly easy to set up.I actually do have a contingency set up in case this happens, using a homebrewed magic item called a "memory orb" which the NPC will have on him. Put into this campaign for the express purpose of this encounter and my group's predilection to murder anything that moves and isn't stronger than them. The tiny bit of pushing in the right direction is just to hopefully get them to fight him finally, as my way of saying "Yes, you are strong enough to kill him now."


I should point out, we also discussed with that player out of character why he couldn't keep stealing from party members. Always introduce out-of-character solutions before in-character ones, otherwise players can feel they're being punished for (in their opinion) good roleplaying.I think I may have actually broached the issue in-character in just the past week, during a "dream sequence" one character had while passed out. (I had typed it up on the computer and sent it to him after the session. He's the only one who has read it so far, and it's up to him if he wants to share it with the rest of the group) We talked about the dream sequence for a little bit and he was actually the one who brought up that they weren't talking to many NPC's, brought on by something I typed in the sequence. While this wasn't something I was trying to accomplish in the dream, I did mention that I was having some trouble with that too. He seems more inclined to talk with NPC's when next session comes around, and he'll likely back me up when I bring this to the attention of the rest of the group.

I thank you for your advice and the example, I'll be sure to remember them when the next situation like this comes up.

[Angel Bob]

Goodness me, this group is worse than mine. You're telling me your players are a) too paranoid to talk to NPCs, b) too dumb to use spells like Speak with Dead or Feather Fall, and c) too cowardly to engage enemy NPCs in combat?

The way I see it, the only way you'll get your plan to work and the game to run smoothly is if you talk to them OOC and point out they're approaching the game all wrong. My group is spastic, out of control, and doesn't give a care in the world about the game's plot, but they still talk to NPCs (even though most of the ones they've talked to have later betrayed them), use utility spells (I recall they once used Feather Fall to literally jump off a city floating in the sky, which was pretty much their finest hour), and have enough bravado to take on pretty much anything I throw at them (including a mob of twenty-something kobolds, whom they defeated with an ingenious trick involving drugs).

[Rhynn]

I require my party to face this NPC so that he can drop bits of plot information and move the group away from the rinse-and-repeat session plans that I've been throwing at them to get to this encounter.

Well, there's your problem. You shouldn't create adventures where something must, or more specifically the PCs must do a specific thing. You can't control the PCs, that's the whole point.

Don't take this personally: probably every GM does this at some point. Many never realize they shouldn't. Many even manage to muddle through. But the problem is...


I know exactly how I want them to face him, too, but I need a way to get them to the location in space I want them.

Ouch. Seriously, you don't, can't, and shouldn't control the PCs. You (like many GMs) should probably relax and try not to decide ahead of time how the game is supposed to run. Don't plan such a linear campaign, going from point to point or scene to scene.


How to Railroad the Party without them realizing that they are being Railroaded?

Don't. Railroading isn't good. Every GM who does it justifies it, but it's not truly necessary (unless you write yourself into a corner with a linear plot and no hooks).

You can lay down clues, a trail of bread-crumbs, lead them on a chase, but you should not railroad them. You can't force the players to do anything specific.


The way to avoid these problems is to design a more open campaign. Create a setting, key players (the villains, the supporting good guys, etc.), key locations (the villain's hideout, the resting place of the MacGuffin, etc.), and come up with a general sequence of events if the players do not intervene. Come up with key points for intervention. Come up with clues and trails of clues (with at least double redundancy; that is, 3+ clues/options for every "connection") to keep the players on track. Plan fewer grand encounters atop setpieces at climactic moments - I'm not saying you can't do them, but at least do less of them, and preferrably don't plan them out so far in advance that you end up in this situation, wondering how to even get the PCs there. Once the players decide to storm the villain's castle, you can decide to have a final confrontation atop a crumbling tower as the flying castle slowly plummets towards the ground, or whatever, but you need to be flexible.

Plot-based campaigns are fine, but there are IMO too many problems inherent to the "go from pre-planned scene to scene" route to be worth it.


For your specific situation: you have to think about motivation. What do the PCs want? What hooks them into this? If you've already got a secondary villain they hate and want to kill, have them chase him to the big bad, for instance.

Be very careful here; again, leading PCs from scene to scene is hard. They may be capable of stopping or overtaking the villain, completely negating this lead, in which case you need those redundancies: as he lays dying, the villain cackles and looks at the skyscraper, where an airship/dragon/recognizable mode of transport alights to unload the main villain; some of his straggling minions, fleeing in different directions, scream at each other to meet at the skyscraper; etc.


Can't really help with your players' issues with talking. I've found players just get better at that stuff slowly, which requires GM patience. Frankly, I'd just dump them in situations where they have a goal, something they need, and there's no way to approach it except by seeking in certain NPCs and talking to them... but they don't know, exactly, which NPC it is, and have to find even that out.

[TheDarkSaint]

I think....you might already be rail-roading them.


I'd like a moment to share my perspective on DMing.

Our job in the game is to describe how the world reacts to player actions. Notice that word, react. We should be reactive in our story telling.

How do you do this so you don't have bored players staring at you, waiting to be told what to do next and then trying to sabotage the 'plot'?

Create your world. Create your villains. Lots of villians. Give those villians goals that will surely cross paths with bungling adventurers who mess everything up.

Now, you simply get to sit back and have things react to what the players do. Did the players kill off the bad beastie eating up all the commoners? Well, it was sent by Ursar the Mad for retribution for not paying taxes and finding good pets is so hard these days.

I try not to think of "plots" for my PC's because every red herring they totally jump on and refuse to let go and will blindly miss the 'plot' if it hits them in the face with a dead fish. But if they keep screwing up the plots of the villains, that turns into Drama and you get to spend your planning time thinking "OK, what would villain B do in response to the party burning the forest down?"

[Rhynn]

I try not to think of "plots" for my PC's because every red herring they totally jump on and refuse to let go and will blindly miss the 'plot' if it hits them in the face with a dead fish. But if they keep screwing up the plots of the villains, that turns into Drama and you get to spend your planning time thinking "OK, what would villain B do in response to the party burning the forest down?"

Yeah, this is pretty much what I'm talking about, too. I was enlightened to the joys of not needing to plan things out scene by scene while still creating a deep and engrossing setting for the PCs to rampage in when I ran my first Artesia campaign. The PCs did basically nothing I expected; instead of siding with one of three royal princes vying for succession, they killed one (an "accident" at a tourney), became witches, and ran off into the magic forest to escape the Inquisition (after ambushing and killing a bunch of templars). It was enormous fun - after each session, I'd just look at what they'd done, and think about the consequences for all of that. Next session, I'd bring a few of those consequences into play, and maybe some for older actions.