How to Handle "LA -" Templates [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

UmbralFox

2013-06-01, 10:14 AM

Is there any official ruling on how to treat templates with unlisted level adjustments, or level adjustments listed simply as "-"?

Along a similar line of questioning, is there any giant-type LA +0 base race or template?

Flickerdart

2013-06-01, 10:25 AM

Is there any official ruling on how to treat templates with unlisted level adjustments, or level adjustments listed simply as "-"?
The rule is "you can't play them". That's what LA-- means.

Vaz

2013-06-01, 10:25 AM

Templates with no listed LA do not change from the LA of the creature they are attached to.

Templates with an LA of - are unplayable for normal use.

Races without an LA, or LA of - with a template applied that does not state an LA change within its stat block does not change the base LA of the creature, it's still LA-.

An example is the Unseelie Fey; it doesn't have a listed LA for the template, and the rules for modifying monsters states that templates missing an entry do not change the base creature. QED, it can be applied to any viable race, and any race with it applied to does not change it's base LA (which may by 0, -, or +X).

Monsters without LA in their statblock are unplayable as PC's. Having a Template with LA+X does not make it LA0+X, it makes it Nothing+X, which is entirely different.

UmbralFox

2013-06-01, 10:32 AM

An example is the Unseelie Fey; it doesn't have a listed LA for the template, and the rules for modifying monsters states that templates missing an entry do not change the base creature. QED, it can be applied to any viable race, and any race with it applied to does not change it's base LA (which may by 0, -, or +X).

Please forgive my thickness on this subject, but I'm not sure I understand this part.

It sounds like you are saying that a race with +0 LA could still be played with the Unseelie Fey "-" LA, from level 1 as an ECL 1 character.

If so, then I'm confused by the apparent consensus that LA - templates cannot be applied to PCs.

Seer_of_Heart

2013-06-01, 10:41 AM

Please forgive my thickness on this subject, but I'm not sure I understand this part.

It sounds like you are saying that a race with +0 LA could still be played with the Unseelie Fey "-" LA, from level 1 as an ECL 1 character.

If so, then I'm confused by the apparent consensus that LA - templates cannot be applied to PCs.

Unseelie fey does not have LA - it has LA " "(blank).

UmbralFox

2013-06-01, 10:43 AM

Unseelie fey does not have LA - it has LA " "(blank).

Ah, I understand. Thanks much. :smallsmile:

137beth

2013-06-01, 03:49 PM

Keep in mind that many of the LA -- templates and races work perfectly fine for player characters, whether or not WotC says you can. Animated objects/plants are a good example.

Flickerdart

2013-06-01, 04:33 PM

Keep in mind that many of the LA -- templates and races work perfectly fine for player characters, whether or not WotC says you can. Animated objects/plants are a good example.
Except those types have a ton of immunities, and are frequently (all the time, in case of the animated objects) mindless. Even if you got around the mindlessness, you'd need a hefty LA for the immunities.

Fates

2013-06-01, 04:36 PM

Except those types have a ton of immunities, and are frequently (all the time, in case of the animated objects) mindless. Even if you got around the mindlessness, you'd need a hefty LA for the immunities.

Eh, they've not got more immunities than undead do, and there are loads of ways to play as one of those with little to no penalty.

TypoNinja

2013-06-01, 04:46 PM

LA - Templates are officially not suitable for use as a PC, typically for obvious reasons, like being mindless.

Some things, like awakened animals though could be fairly easily with just a little bit of DM judgement applied.

In my experience most things with no listed LA at all are simply that the creature would be higher than a 20 ECL if you trying to play one as a PC. Take all the True Dragons for example, their listed LA's all stop part way, right at the Epic levels threshold. So you couldn't play it in a normal game. That's just my feeling though, take it with a grain of salt.

The Viscount

2013-06-01, 04:54 PM

Eh, they've not got more immunities than undead do, and there are loads of ways to play as one of those with little to no penalty.

There are many weaknesses that undead have as well, many of them spells and ACFs to target them specifically. Constructs and plants do not have as many ways to exploit what few weaknesses they have. Constructs also actually do have an immunity that undead lack, immunity to mental ability damage.

Flickerdart

2013-06-01, 04:55 PM

Eh, they've not got more immunities than undead do, and there are loads of ways to play as one of those with little to no penalty.
Undead have their own weaknesses - they can be turned, they're a pain to heal, and a couple of spells are massively powerful against them. Plants are so rare that the few anti-plant spells are never prepared by anyone, and they enjoy all the benefits of being a living creature.

137beth

2013-06-01, 05:13 PM

Except those types have a ton of immunities, and are frequently (all the time, in case of the animated objects) mindless. Even if you got around the mindlessness, you'd need a hefty LA for the immunities.

Then give it some LA. There's still no reason that it wouldn't work for a PC.

TuggyNE

2013-06-01, 05:41 PM

Then give it some LA. There's still no reason that it wouldn't work for a PC.

Yes, but how much? The rules don't tell you that, so we're in "active DM fiat and judgement needed to even try this" territory.

Steward

2013-06-01, 05:57 PM

Yes, but how much? The rules don't tell you that, so we're in "active DM fiat and judgement needed to even try this" territory.

I agree, that's probably the meaning of "LA -". Obviously the developers aren't going to send cops busting down your door if you let a player play as an LA - character, but they don't provide any help in managing such a character either.

Vaz

2013-06-01, 06:38 PM

To which I point you back to the original post.

The Viscount

2013-06-01, 06:41 PM

Then give it some LA. There's still no reason that it wouldn't work for a PC.
Sometimes they do, as with Volodni. It's an LA +2 plant from Unapproachable East. Talontar Blightlord changes your type to plant without any LA, but requires a 10 level investment.
Being a warforged juggernaut brings you pretty close to being a full construct.

These types aren't always forbidden, but when a template or race doesn't allow you to play as them, it's usually for a reason.

Vaz

2013-06-01, 07:25 PM

Sometimes they do, as with Volodni. It's an LA +2 plant from Unapproachable East. Blightspawned lord changes your type to plant without any LA, but requires a 10 level investment.
Being a warforged juggernaut brings you pretty close to being a full construct.

These types aren't always forbidden, but when a template or race doesn't allow you to play as them, it's usually for a reason.
Like how fighters are meant to go up against Wizarsds by virtue of BAB 20?

137beth

2013-06-01, 08:11 PM

Yes, but how much? The rules don't tell you that, so we're in "active DM fiat and judgement needed to even try this" territory.

Shouldn't you get DM approval to play anything with a high LA?

Vaz

2013-06-01, 08:14 PM

Why? With high LA comes the fact you are 6 or more (dead) levels behind the curve.

137beth

2013-06-01, 08:17 PM

Why? With high LA comes the fact you are 6 or more (dead) levels behind the curve.

Because I assume the DM should be aware of the biggest character choices your are making upon character creation. Especially if it includes "optional" rules, which happens to encompass all non-core, which includes most high LA races, so...

But yes, having a high LA can significantly alter the power level of your character (for the worse). That's something the DM should know before hand.

Cog

2013-06-01, 08:22 PM

Why? With high LA comes the fact you are 6 or more (dead) levels behind the curve.

Exactly. Your character is likely so far behind the curve that you really ought to check if your DM wants to put up with it.

Vaz

2013-06-01, 08:30 PM

That is a difference in styling of DMing. Not actually answering the question however. A DM can introduce any number of house rules to reduce the LA, from advanced Buy off, to faster experience for the la player.

A template will come with of 4 forms for LA

1) stated increase/decrease in LA: add this to base creature's if it has one. If not, it is unplayable.
2) LA- : unplayable as PC template
3) LA unchanged from base: doesn't change
4) no mention of la: doesn't change

Flickerdart

2013-06-01, 08:56 PM

4) no mention of la: doesn't change
What? No. Unless LA is mentioned or the creature is a base race, you can't play it. The LA rules are explicitly worded as "you need this number here to play it".

The Viscount

2013-06-01, 11:29 PM

If LA isn't mentioned, there's a good chance it's 3.0 and you hope for an update giving it an LA.
But Flickerdart is right. You must treat something without a mentioned LA as LA-.

Vaz

2013-06-02, 04:41 AM

What? No. Unless LA is mentioned or the creature is a base race, you can't play it. The LA rules are explicitly worded as "you need this number here to play it".

For a monster, not a template. A monster is not a template. It explicitly states in the Monster Manual in the section detailing how to apply templates that if an entry is missing, it does not change it from the base creature; if the base creature has no mentioned LA, then sure, it is still unplayable. Otherwise a LA0 monster applying a template which doesn't mention LA is still LA0.

TypoNinja

2013-06-02, 05:03 AM

For a monster, not a template. A monster is not a template. It explicitly states in the Monster Manual in the section detailing how to apply templates that if an entry is missing, it does not change it from the base creature; if the base creature has no mentioned LA, then sure, it is still unplayable. Otherwise a LA0 monster applying a template which doesn't mention LA is still LA0.

Out of curiosity, are there any templates with no listed LA? I can't actually recall seeing any.

questionmark693

2013-06-02, 05:20 AM

It's a web published template I think, but Vampire Lord has no LA listed, though it does have some entry requirements.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-06-02, 05:27 AM

Most of the first chapter of savage species is guidelines for assigning ad-hoc LA to creatures that don't have one listed. They're pretty reasonable, at that, especially since they advise running an acid test to make sure you got it right.

Vaz

2013-06-02, 08:27 AM

It's a web published template I think, but Vampire Lord has no LA listed, though it does have some entry requirements.

Such as being a Vampire already, which is LA+8.

Unseelie Fey (Dragon Compendium) is a template which is usually involved in these situations.

I will suggest however, that it's not balanced one little bit; and that the Dragon Mag guys didn't actually know what they were doing; so that *should* be used with DM's discretion; after all free flight at twice normal speed is a lovely little thing, and then you get things like Winters Chill or whatever it is.

I will however have a quick scout through my books to see any which aren't mentioned.

killem2

2013-06-02, 09:04 AM

It's fairly obvious if you have been around these boards longer than a month, and played d&d 3.5 for at least 6 months that you really start to understand how the game was balanced.

It was balanced with quite a bit of ignorance is bliss idealism going on. You have it based around a party of 4, it doesn't recognize any differences in versatility of each class or race either.

Lets not forget the atrocious variance between effort needed to kill something the CR label.

It's really cute and all to play the "Big Boy, I can read DM" and **** block your players from using these LA "_" races merely out of R.A.W, but if you are going into it blindly every time with the assumption that LA "_" creature is going to be some sort of game breaking monstrosity, you are still a novice regardless of time you've DM/played.

The Viscount

2013-06-02, 03:39 PM

Spellstiched also never received an LA IIRC.

TypoNinja

2013-06-02, 05:11 PM

Such as being a Vampire already, which is LA+8.

And requiring 10HD. you need a ECL 18 character to even apply this template to, and its gained powers are clearly worth more than enough to pass it into Epic levels. Hence no published LA, There really is very crappy support for play past 20th level.