How much is one ability point? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

G.Cube

2013-06-01, 10:32 AM

Simply an abstract thought, for each individual ability score, how much of a difference is there between one point less or more? Strength I'm assuming you could figure out Strength simply by finding the encumbrance limit and doing the math, but I'm AFB right now. How much faster and how much stronger a sense of equilibrium and ambedexterity does one one point of Dexterity make? How heartier and resistant does one point of Constitution make? How much more aware and logical is one point of Wisdom make? How much does one point of Intelligence increase one's IQ score? How much more influential and socially adapt does one point of Charisma make one?

Note that this thread is purely out of curiosity and only for fun.

Alleran

2013-06-01, 10:51 AM

Well, as far as the game mechanics are concerned, you need two points to make a measurable difference.

Emperor Tippy

2013-06-01, 10:53 AM

10 is human average, 19 is absolute real world max (5th level being peak human, 18 being max starting attribute, 1 point from level up).

14 Int is roughly 140 IQ (certified genius) while 16 is roughly 160 IQ (top .003% of the human population)

19 Strength is lifting 350 pounds over your head, the world record for the Snatch is 472 pounds; which is between 21 and 22 Strength. Remember however that this is a man who has made a career of lifting weight over his head, accounting for feats and the like he is probably the 19 or so strength person.

When you are throwing out a 30+ in an ability score you are firmly into the level of comic book superheros.

HowlingWolf

2013-06-01, 10:54 AM

Try ExtremeIntellect.com :-) It seems only 1% of the population as 135 or over. In my opinion, Intelligence is one of the most difficult abilities to gauge in any capacity. Strength can be measure by an individuals capability to lift heavy weight or objects. Dexterity is hand-eye coordination, plus reflexes, plus agility (too much in one.) Constitution measures fitness, as well as overall health.

Strength is the easiest to measure. Dexterity can be measured fairly easily as well.

Avid gamers often demonstrate high levels of hand-eye coordination, balance, initiative, and reflex. Why is this? Play a game on a high difficulty,
it reguires you to be alert, ready, and to react. Often times, this means using a controller which is sloppy and requires you to make up for this to succeed. The best gamers in the world, very much likely, have a high level
of dexterity. (Of course, this also means that they are likely less physically
active, in which cause Con suffers).

Constitution measures stamina, overall bodily health, etc. This can range from the immunity system, to the lungs/heart/etc, to even white and red blood cell count. Aerobic activity improves this, and those athletes whom rely more on this are often very healthy.

Intelligence, is by far, the most difficult.

Wisdom measures determination, confidence, common sense, experience,
and will power. Like intelligence, it is difficult to gauge.

HowlingWolf

2013-06-01, 10:57 AM

I always thought sixth would be the highest level attainable. Taking into account the speed of an Olympic or Champion Boxer. :-)

Hand_of_Vecna

2013-06-01, 11:27 AM

14 Int is roughly 140 IQ (certified genius) while 16 is roughly 160 IQ (top .003% of the human population)

Do you have a source for 14 Int being 140 IQ? I ask because 140 is the top 1 percentile while a roll of 15+ on 3d6 is just a little less likely than 1 in 10. While a natural 18 is a one in 200 far more numerous than .003%. That seems more like the one 17-18 that actually makes it to 6 and takes the E6 stat advancing feat.

Emperor Tippy

2013-06-01, 11:50 AM

I could be mistaken but I was almost positive that WotC had said somewhere that each point of Int was roughly 10 points on the IQ scale.

Flickerdart

2013-06-01, 11:58 AM

18 is the most you can roll, but

Venerable people may have an Int as high as 21
The Prodigy template (DMG2) gives +2 to an ability score

Therefore, the highest actual possible Intelligence, if we take 6th level to be the absolute maximum, is 24.

Do you have a source for 14 Int being 140 IQ? I ask because 140 is the top 1 percentile while a roll of 15+ on 3d6 is just a little less likely than 1 in 10. While a natural 18 is a one in 200 far more numerous than .003%. That seems more like the one 17-18 that actually makes it to 6 and takes the E6 stat advancing feat.
What is the percentage chance that somebody with a roll of 15+ on a 3d6 assigns that score to Intelligence though?

Der_DWSage

2013-06-01, 12:21 PM

In the Tippyverse? 9 out of 10. :smalltongue:

So far as the 1 INT = 10 IQ goes...actually, I'm kind of in the same boat as Tippy. I've heard that everywhere, but I can't track down an actual source. I think it's an extrapolation from the fact that 'average human' is 10 INT, which should equal 100 IQ...

Anyway. I found a chart that does a good job of converting it. If 3 INT is actually 62 IQ, then assume each point of INT adds roughly 5 IQ.

http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/4008/converting-rpg-intelligence-values-into-iq

Eslin

2013-06-01, 12:33 PM

Hand is correct - it's not about assigning, any stat has a 1 in 216 chance to have an 18 in it.

Under the 10 IQ = 1 point thing, a little under 2% of the population has an IQ over 170, which doesn't make sense, and it doesn't even match up to the 5 IQ = 1 point thing.

Frozen_Feet

2013-06-01, 12:43 PM

As far as Intelligence goes, it's much more reasonable to match the 3d6 Bell curve with IQ bell curve. That way, each score maps to a certain range of IQ. 18 is roughly IQ 145, or 99.5 percentile.

Constitution is easy to test through endurance running and spirometry, though mapping it to D&D scores is a bit harder. Strenght is easy to measure and map to D&D scores as it uses real weight values. Intelligence is easy to measure - the whole field of IQ is dedicated to just that. IQ isn't the whole truth, but it's useful enough for this purpose, and to top this off IQ uses a bell curve distribution, which is trivially easy to map to the 3d6 roll. Dexterity is easy to measure as there are many tests dedicated to just that, but is extremely hard to map to the 3d6 roll because D&D uses no real world values for it.

Wisdom is extremely hard to measure, because while there are tests for sensory ability, sensory ability doesn't correlate with any contemporary definition of wisdom in real life.

Charisma is hard to directly measure, but it's possible to give estimates based on how social or leadership-inclinced a person is.

Eldan

2013-06-01, 12:44 PM

I could be mistaken but I was almost positive that WotC had said somewhere that each point of Int was roughly 10 points on the IQ scale.

That doesn't quite work out, if you fit the bell curves, I think. Someone did a table once, but I can't find it, and I'm too lazy to go curve fitting myself.

Der_DWSage

2013-06-01, 12:45 PM

Except...it kinda does. Hold on, lemme transcribe the table so people don't have to click the link.

{table]Int| IQ
3| 62.0
4| 67.0
5| 72.1
6| 77.2
7| 82.3
8| 87.3
9| 92.4
10| 97.5
11| 102.5
12| 107.6
13| 112.7
14| 117.7
15| 122.8
16| 127.9
17| 133.0
18| 138.0[/table]

It doesn't hold up 100% to average statistics, but it's still a pretty good general meter. 18 Intelligence is pretty rare. Your TO venerable prodigy? That's definitely a one-in-a-billion chance...but hey, we've had our share of Einsteins and Stephen Hawkings who kind of break the IQ chart at 168-ish IQ, which is where they'd be on this scale.

Seer_of_Heart

2013-06-01, 12:50 PM

18 is the most you can roll, but

Venerable people may have an Int as high as 21
The Prodigy template (DMG2) gives +2 to an ability score

Therefore, the highest actual possible Intelligence, if we take 6th level to be the absolute maximum, is 24.

What is the percentage chance that somebody with a roll of 15+ on a 3d6 assigns that score to Intelligence though?

We can get to 26 with a human paragon.

Eldan

2013-06-01, 12:53 PM

No, see, that table proves my point. One point of INT is not ten points of IQ. It's about 5.

Der_DWSage

2013-06-01, 12:55 PM

Apologies-there were some ninja before I got my chart posted. That was in response to Eslinn, who said that even the 5 IQ chart didn't match up.

Gavinfoxx

2013-06-01, 12:56 PM

22 is the real world max for mental ability scores...

18 start, +1 from leveling, +3 from age.

Edit: Okay okay, Prodigy and Human Paragon... sheesh...

Spiryt

2013-06-01, 01:04 PM

Constitution is easy to test through endurance running and spirometry, though mapping it to D&D scores is a bit harder.

Well, not really. Constitution covers way too many things.

130 pounds Kenyan long distance runner will have absolutely stunning endurance and spirometry results, but one one punch from more solidly built human will fold him, and his resistance to, say, poisons will be generally lower than heavier people. Certainly not better, without some individual genes/characteristic completely unconnected to endurance.

Strenght is easy to measure and map to D&D scores as it uses real weight values.
.

Similarly, D&D strengths covers both dynamic and static strength uses, all mixtures of those, of all body parts etc.

There are people with absolutely obscene bench presses or snatches, who have trouble with solid pull-ups, let alone weighted ones.

Rower won't generally have the muscle and nerve appropriate for javelin throwing.

And so on.

Even 'simplest' D&D scores are in fact very abstract.

Flickerdart

2013-06-01, 01:09 PM

We can get to 26 with a human paragon.
Ah yes, I forgot about that. Shame you have to waste those spellcaster levels though.

So the ultimate human badass will have up to 26 in a mental stat. Can we justify Magic-Blooded in our world to push that up to 28?

Emperor Tippy

2013-06-01, 01:12 PM

Ah yes, I forgot about that. Shame you have to waste those spellcaster levels though.

So the ultimate human badass will have up to 26 in a mental stat. Can we justify Magic-Blooded in our world to push that up to 28?

So we are at what now? One in a hundred billion or so odds?

Frozen_Feet

2013-06-01, 01:13 PM

Well, not really. Constitution covers way too many things.

But all of those things are relatively easy to test, from stamina, to lung capacity, to tolerance to damage etc.. The problem is matching those combined results on the 3d6 roll.

In case of Intelligence, this is relatively easy, because different intellectual abilities have very high correlation with each other. This is why IQ is used in the first place.

In case of constitution, it's less so. Lung capacity and stamina correlate, but not to the same degree as memory and spatial reasoning, to give an example.

Flickerdart

2013-06-01, 01:16 PM

So we are at what now? One in a hundred billion or so odds?
I wouldn't go that far - a Venerable character with max Int, three class levels, and a template isn't so uncommon that one or more could not have arisen in Earth's history already. This would be the territory of those absolute ridiculous polymaths that pushed the limits of knowledge to unexpected depths in their lifetimes. Einstein, Netwon, Leonardo, Tesla level geniuses, and some of those might not even qualify for this level.

Emperor Tippy

2013-06-01, 01:20 PM

I wouldn't go that far - a Venerable character with max Int, three class levels, and a template isn't so uncommon that one or more could not have arisen in Earth's history already. This would be the territory of those absolute ridiculous polymaths that pushed the limits of knowledge to unexpected depths in their lifetimes. Einstein, Netwon, Leonardo, Tesla level geniuses, and some of those might not even qualify for this level.

Honestly, out of who you listed Da Vinci is probably the only one who qualifies. The rest you listed were highly intelligent but none of them were the generalized savant that Da Vinci was (which is what we are basically discussing at this point, what with Prodigy, Human Paragon, and a natural 18 on the Int roll; that is a pure Int it of 22 basically at birth).

Spiryt

2013-06-01, 01:26 PM

But all of those things are relatively easy to test, from stamina, to lung capacity, to tolerance to damage etc.. The problem is matching those combined results on the 3d6 roll.

In case of Intelligence, this is relatively easy, because different intellectual abilities have very high correlation with each other. This is why IQ is used in the first place.

In case of constitution, it's less so. Lung capacity and stamina correlate, but not to the same degree as memory and spatial reasoning, to give an example.

Yeah, in "Constitution" case, way too many thins won't correlate. In fact will be contradictory.

Huge, overgrown muscle mass will be very helpful in surviving all kinds of damage. Fat can also help as well...

But they will be also detrimental to any kind of stamina, and endurance oriented activities, no way around it.

Cirrylius

2013-06-01, 01:26 PM

So far as the 1 INT = 10 IQ goes...actually, I'm kind of in the same boat as Tippy. I've heard that everywhere, but I can't track down an actual source. I think it's an extrapolation from the fact that 'average human' is 10 INT, which should equal 100 IQ...

It coincides with or pre-dates 2nd Edition; I heard this same comparison in the late 90's. Since Once Upon A Time 18 was the very top of the line, roughly 10 points of IQ equalled 1 point of Intelligence.

Flickerdart

2013-06-01, 01:34 PM

Honestly, out of who you listed Da Vinci is probably the only one who qualifies. The rest you listed were highly intelligent but none of them were the generalized savant that Da Vinci was (which is what we are basically discussing at this point, what with Prodigy, Human Paragon, and a natural 18 on the Int roll; that is a pure Int it of 22 basically at birth).
Getting to level 5 (since Prodigy is LA+2) would be an achievement of practically a lifetime without adventuring, so it's only Int 20 at Young Adult. Still really freakin' good (this guy has an even chance of figuring out a basic principle of a field he's never heard of until someone asked him the question) but I think a couple of other historical geniuses can match that level.

Gavinfoxx

2013-06-01, 01:35 PM

How about Pascal?

Cirrylius

2013-06-01, 01:49 PM

How about Pascal?
Also had a high Wisdom. It's a good thing, too; guy was under a lot of pressure :smallbiggrin:

AAAAAHAHAHAHhhhhhhh stop me before I kill again.:smallfrown:

Jack_Simth

2013-06-01, 02:14 PM

18 is the most you can roll, but

Venerable people may have an Int as high as 21
The Prodigy template (DMG2) gives +2 to an ability score

Therefore, the highest actual possible Intelligence, if we take 6th level to be the absolute maximum, is 24.

What is the percentage chance that somebody with a roll of 15+ on a 3d6 assigns that score to Intelligence though?
Don't forget Human Paragon-3!

Int, Wis, or Charisma max human, no higher than 5th level:
Roll an 18.
Get to 4th level (+1)
Get to Venerable (+3)
Human Paragon-3 (+2)
Prodigy (+2)
=26, with no magic. Just *really* intense training and some natural ability, over a long period of time.

Hand_of_Vecna

2013-06-01, 02:23 PM

What is the percentage chance that somebody with a roll of 15+ on a 3d6 assigns that score to Intelligence though?

The odds I stated are of getting a 15+ on any particular roll (the organic method), not the odds of getting at least one 15+ rolling a character and the completely unknowable odds of stat priority.

It's probably best to ignore build elements like Prodigy, equating a natural 18 Prodigy to a IQ so rare that it's statistically insignificant.

Tragak

2013-06-01, 02:30 PM

IQ: Mean 100, SD 15

3d6 INT: Mean 10.5, SD 2.958

Increase in 1 INT = increase in 15/2.958 IQ (≈ 5.071)

Spuddles

2013-06-01, 02:31 PM

So we are at what now? One in a hundred billion or so odds?

Modern society rewards extreme specialization to a ludicrous degree. Sure if you are just rolling everything randomly, it's rare, but how many people actually have levels in warblade or swashbuckler in the modern era? Pretty much none.

There are what, 32 million people who have rolled an 18 int? There's been a solid 500 years of academy science. Venerable super-geniuses don't seem like they should be especially rare, considering the cultural, economic and social niche that has been around for 25 generations. Also considerr that 7% of people who have ever existed are alive today, so that bumps the number of 18 ints to have ever existed up like 400 million.

Seharvepernfan

2013-06-01, 02:50 PM

18 is the most you can roll, but

Venerable people may have an Int as high as 21
The Prodigy template (DMG2) gives +2 to an ability score

Therefore, the highest actual possible Intelligence, if we take 6th level to be the absolute maximum, is 24.

I was gonna say this.

Anyway, in response to the OP, I have always imagined each point representing a noticeable difference. Of course, this can be obscured by a hundred different things, but all else being equal, somebody with 13 Int is going to be noticeably smarter than somebody with 12 Int. The key word here is "noticeably", as in: can be noticed - not "very", not "obviously", just "noticeably".