Leadership

[SouthpawSoldier]

My group has had only one campaign get to level 6, and Leadership didn't make sense for my character, so I don't know much about the feat. I've read the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm), but it doesn't explain HOW a PC gains cohorts. It lists tables for modifiers; so a PC simply rolls d20 to recruit someone? I would think that if a cohort makes sense to the story (like the "Jedi" : http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284559 getting an apprentice) then it happens, and the feat just gives the guidlines on the cohort's stats; if not, then why bother? Treat it as a hired NPC. Either way, the tables and d20 rolls seem superfluous. It really seems something that's more DM fiat than anything else.

Can someone give me a "Leadership 101" on how PC's gain cohorts, how to track reputation, etc?

[CaladanMoonblad]

I've been running Leadership in my group's campaign, and there is no d20 involved. You just get them between sessions at appropriate times (and the GM may stat them, or may let the player stat them, that's all in negotiation territory). The mechanics are sparse because this feat is very much a negotiable type of thing; some GMs outright ban it.

The calculated Leadership Score corresponds to the Followers table, to see how many mooks/henchmen/loyal vassals the Leader can attract. The cohort is always 2 levels below (and gets a mirror of the leader's experience at (leader level -2) / (leader level) ).

The tables include the SRD's suggestions for how having a stronghold, an animal companion, and reputation impact the number of followers.

As an addition, I tend to use Circumstance modifiers (+4 to -4) depending on how populous the environ that the Leader is trying to attract followers. As a GM, I also allow players to advertise positions (hiring a bard) and conduct interviews between scenario sessions to fill out their followers (I will sometimes use Donjon's Random Generator (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/random/#npc) if my players try to get a follower during the session and ad hoc a Diplomacy check modded by the calculated Leadership score vs. DC 25).

So far, one player has used it to populate his Temple in their homeland in order to produce a steady stream of minor healing potions. Another player travels with his cohort but leaves his Followers in his new Island Stronghold to protect his lands. Another player has the feat, but has yet to acquire a cohort or followers (but they took it since they are the party's main Face).

The Leadership feat is another reason to attempt great deeds; the PHB has a section on Reputation bonuses, of which, our game adds any Reputation bonuses/penalties to their ability to attract followers.

When it comes to statting my group does the following; We give Followers the same Ability Point Pool as the PCs but at -10. The Cohort is similar but at -5. This means that the feat is not giving you a 2nd heroic character, but a real henchman, who might have been a less talented hero but latched onto the Player/Leader to learn and help.

Does this help?

[Nich_Critic]

The reason that leadership was printed in the DMG rather than the players handbook is because it's a fundamentally game changing feat. It gives the party the makings of a small army. Certainly, that can be an enjoyable thing to roleplay, but it warps the game away from the typical dungeon crawling experience to more of a world building focus. You definitely shouldn't just allow it blindly. If you're running a module, I would strongly consider not using it at all. It will vary between useless and gamebreaking, depending on how much you limit it as a DM, and will generally make the game unfun.

That said leadership has some nice properties that make it desirable for modeling the situation where a PC begins to get famous and attract attention. First is that it's charisma based, which is a dump stat for many classes, but makes sense in the context of the world. Second, there are mechanisms for the leader to lose followers when he does bad things, and the rules spell out exactly how that happens so that the DM isn't perceived as just taking the player's toys away. If the PC is a bad leader, s/he will lose followers in a fairly sensible way.

As for gaining cohorts and followers, I would treat it like a druid's animal companion. Sure, you can rule by DM fiat that the fighter has an animal companion too, but when you're trying to decide what animal he should have, you're probably going to glance at the druid rules. I see leadership the same way. You're essentially recruiting a lieutenant. Someone not as competent as you, but good enough to be relied upon.

With this kind of feat, all it's really doing is giving you the numbers, and letting you decide what they mean. For example, I once gave all of my PC's the leadership feat, so that they could have a crew to run their pirate ship. Mostly we ran it in an abstract way, where the PCs would give orders and the crew would attempt to carry them out, but I didn't tract each individual pirate by name and character sheet. I let the PC's deign their cohorts, which lead them to be used almost as often as the PC's to solve problems (essentially I had 8 PC's to 4 characters), but that seemed to work ok. I also let them try to recruit certain types of NPC for their higher level characters, but success wasn't guaranteed.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Ok. Modifiers change leadership score. Makes sense now that I pay attention to what I'm reading. Usually when I see "modifier", I think roll modifier.

So a CHA-heavy PC can have a cohort that's of a higher level? Kind of gets away from a Bardic Master or a Sorc having an apprentice or similar fluff. Doesn't make sense for a caster to have a sword&board cohort/bodyguard; that's more of a hireling role. Doesn't work if they're the same class, either. Only seems to work if the Cohort relationship is a Druid/Ranger or Cleric/Paladin relationship; a Bard Cohort following a PC promoting them; something along those lines. How do you treat the Master/Apprentice relationship? Does it not fall under Leadership?

[Cirrylius]

So a CHA-heavy PC can have a cohort that's of a higher level? Kind of gets away from a Bardic Master or a Sorc having an apprentice or similar fluff.
No, it says that the Cohort can never be more than two levels less than you.



Doesn't make sense for a caster to have a sword&board cohort/bodyguard; that's more of a hireling role.
Keep in mind that most hirelings aren't very high level, usually, and like as not are Warriors instead of Fighters.


Doesn't work if they're the same class, either. Only seems to work if the Cohort relationship is a Druid/Ranger or Cleric/Paladin relationship; a Bard Cohort following a PC promoting them; something along those lines. How do you treat the Master/Apprentice relationship? Does it not fall under Leadership?
Also keep in mind that the Leadership feat is a roleplaying convention as well as being useful for optimization. Right now I'm playing a character (young CG rogue, low Wisdom) who's trying to get into politicking, business ownership, and covert intelligence; rather than stretch her every which way trying to buff up necessary skills/feats for that (also she's kind of irresponsible and wants to have a lot of her time to herself) I'm getting her an experienced Rogue/Spymaster/Expert/Chameleon/Idon'tf*****gknowyet cohort who can handle the everyday organizational issues while she continues to drink and letch and adventure part-time.


How do you treat the Master/Apprentice relationship? Does it not fall under Leadership?
...nnnnnot really. An "apprentice" under the Leadership feat would be kind of high level to fit that archetype. Of course, if you want an unusually butch apprentice for your story, knock yourself out; archetypes aren't mandatory. There are rules in the DMG2, I think, that cover that particular relationship more in-depth.

If you want more bang for your buck with your followers, I found this (http://community.wizards.com/rumbletiger/blog/2012/12/18/maximizing_leadership-_followers)and this (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?503065-3-5-Optimizing-leadership-Followers)just two days ago:smallsmile:

[SouthpawSoldier]

I just came across leadership and actually read it today. For the "jedi" build I referenced in the OP, it makes sense for him to eventually have an apprentice at some point. Maybe a combat focused build like I tried to avoid with the original character. Imagine Dooku with a Maul-like apprentice. Pretty similar to the whole Druid-Ranger mix or Cleric-Paladin (skilled fighter looking for spiritual guidance). That's how it piqued my curiosity. Make up for my character's focus on mental abilities to have a thuggish student who has raw potential, but needs refinement and maturity.

[Coidzor]

How do you treat the Master/Apprentice relationship? Does it not fall under Leadership?

There's actually a separate set of Mentor/Apprentice feats that act differently until after 5th level where Apprentice turns into Mentor and when the apprentice hits 5th level at which point it becomes a cohort, IIRC.

That said, the cohort could definitely be an apprentice or something.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Well, I couldn't find via Google the Master/Apprentice feats you mentioned. Searching for "DnD Apprentice" just pulled up things like Precocious Apprentice. But thanks to input, and from digging more into how Leadership works, I think it'd work pretty well for what I have intended. No if I only had a group to try it.

[Talya]

In a campaign I played for 5 years, my sorceress/heartwarder of Sune (that eventually built a massive, "wonder of the world" Basilica in Calimport, patterned after Babylon's Hanging Gardens) was offered the leadership feat by the DM. She received an angelic bodyguard (and eventual lover) from Sune as her cohort. Her followers ended up being the junior clergy in the basilica.

Nothing says they need to be standard PC playable races/classes. (And in fact, there are several monsters that have a level adjustment listed as a cohort only, which means they aren't playable, but are compatible with the leadership feat.)

[137beth]

Well, I couldn't find via Google the Master/Apprentice feats you mentioned. Searching for "DnD Apprentice" just pulled up things like Precocious Apprentice. But thanks to input, and from digging more into how Leadership works, I think it'd work pretty well for what I have intended. No if I only had a group to try it.

It is in the DMG 2. Which is not open-gaming-content, so it should not show up on Google.