best lycanthrope template

[Immabozo]

Afflicted, or natural? I think its a matter of personal taste.

BUT, there are a few templates that you can put on the animal and have it still qualify for lycanthrope, without it affecting HD!

Paragon (from ELH), no additional LA or HD

+15 str, +15dex, +15 Con
+5 natural AC (another +2 from lycanthrope)
Your RHD are D12s and always max HP, +12
Speed: tripled
Any of the base animal's special attacks are made at a +13
SLA 3/day Haste, Greater Dispelling and see invisibility
Fire and cold resist 10
DR 20/+6
SR 10 + CR
Fast Healing 20
2 bonus feats

(depending on interpretation, +25 luck bonus to hit, +20 luck bonus on damage)

RAW argument against: Paragon gives +15 to all stats, raising the base animal's int to at least 16, making it a magical beast.

RAW argument for: Animals MUST have an int no higher than 2, so, since the template does not change type, it remains an animal and it's int cannot be raised above 2. Also, see Magebred below.

Magebred (ECS), no additional LA or RHD
Either str, dex or con +4, the others, +2
NA +2
+10' movement speed OR +2 more NA
Feats: either Alertness, Athletic, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack, or Multiattack

RAW argument with paragon template: "A magebred animal always has an intelligence score of 2", so if the above wasn't enough, now you can go fly a kite.

Thoughts?

[Immabozo]

BUMP

I rather like Phynixkin, mediocre bonuses, but only 1 RHD and pounce!

[Lightlawbliss]

My brain is throwing up a big fat "DM's call" sign on the paragon. Personaly, I wouldn't allow it simply to keep the person within manageable limits (or alter it beyond what they would ever want to use if the person isn't the type to take a solid no without rules backing it).

[Miranius]

Best in my opinion, without reverting to stacking templates that no sane DM would ever allow, is the Snow-Spider from Frostburn and the Entomanothrope (Lycanthrope for Vermin, found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a)
+2 effective CL (1 LA, 1 HD) but you get pounce and multiattack:smallbiggrin:

[Immabozo]

My brain is throwing up a big fat "DM's call" sign on the paragon. Personaly, I wouldn't allow it simply to keep the person within manageable limits (or alter it beyond what they would ever want to use if the person isn't the type to take a solid no without rules backing it).

Of course no DM would allow this in their games. I was trying to make a theoretical optimization of the template.

Can you please fix your sig? It's messing up the width of the thread and thus, easy of readability

[Urpriest]

Alternate Form ability says you can't take the form of a creature with a template.

Note that, oddly, this also means you can never return to your base form...

[Immabozo]

Alternate Form ability says you can't take the form of a creature with a template.

Note that, oddly, this also means you can never return to your base form...

However, hybrid form is not a creature with a template, but an entirely new creature whose natural stats are gotten from the templated creature, but it is it's own, new creature.

You would never be able to assume animal form, yes

[Vaz]

Template Shenanigans. In other news, air is required to breath.

1) Paragon doesn't have a listed template, but it can be extrapolated from the example creature.
2) You're dealing with the Epic Level Handbook. I personally don't allow even epic uses of skills in my games.

[Urpriest]

However, hybrid form is not a creature with a template, but an entirely new creature whose natural stats are gotten from the templated creature, but it is it's own, new creature.

You would never be able to assume animal form, yes

No, you're misunderstanding. Hybrid form is a creature with a template as well.

Let's say you're a Human with the Lycanthrope template. You have three options:

turn into Hybrid form, using Alternate Form. What creature are you assuming the form of? A Human with the Lycanthrope template in Hybrid form, since those are the creatures that have those stats. So you can't do it.

Same applies to your native form. Since you are a Human Lycanthrope, you can't return to your own form since your own form is a creature with a template.

[Immabozo]

Template Shenanigans. In other news, air is required to breath.

1) Paragon doesn't have a listed template, but it can be extrapolated from the example creature.
2) You're dealing with the Epic Level Handbook. I personally don't allow even epic uses of skills in my games.

In ELH, it is outlined as a template. Also, I never was assuming use in a game, just a thought.


No, you're misunderstanding. Hybrid form is a creature with a template as well.

Let's say you're a Human with the Lycanthrope template. You have three options:

turn into Hybrid form, using Alternate Form. What creature are you assuming the form of? A Human with the Lycanthrope template in Hybrid form, since those are the creatures that have those stats. So you can't do it.

Same applies to your native form. Since you are a Human Lycanthrope, you can't return to your own form since your own form is a creature with a template.

I see your point, but it breaks the rule in and of itself. It obviously doesnn't work like that seeing as it can work like that. Whats the opposite of an infinite loop? The character is stuck in an infinite loop of cannot be and thus ceases to exist?

But I disagree. You dont have the template, the animal does. You get your stats from the animals (newly modified) stats. As long as you never go in animal form, you are not taking the form of a creature with a template (other than lycanthrope) The hybrid for doesn't have set stats, its stats are a mix of the animal and the base creature, no set stats. What if you got bit by a natural baby werewolf? Your stats will be based off your and a baby wolf's!

[Vaz]

Meant to say LA, not template, sorry.

[Immabozo]

Meant to say LA, not template, sorry.

If I remember correctly, it's LA is "LA: -"

[Vaz]

In which case, it's not playable. Having checked the book, it actually doesn't have an LA entry, either; so by RAW, the lack of an LA in its entry means it's eligible; however, remember it's also grandfathered 3.0 material.

However, it's actually not mentioned in the 3.5 update to gain a Level Adjustment, and yet another monster did (Mercane); so by RAW, it's "explicit" (by omission) to be unchanged, and hence eligible to be the base for either the Humanoid part of a Tauric or the creature of the Lycanthrope.

It does state, however for Lycanthrope that it's alternate form cannot take that of a Templated creature; meaning that it's stuck in it's Hybrid Form forever. Which being fair is a reasonable trade off, for TO purposes.

[Immabozo]

It does state, however for Lycanthrope that it's alternate form cannot take that of a Templated creature; meaning that it's stuck in it's Hybrid Form forever. Which being fair is a reasonable trade off, for TO purposes.

My thoughts exactly!

(I believe it is, without looking at books) on magebred paragon werephynixkin

+21 str +19 dex +23 con
+9 NA
pounce
SLA 3/day Haste, Greater Dispell and See Invisibility
DR 20/+6
speed: 150'
Improved Initiative and 2 bonus feats of your choice,
minor save bonuses

For the cost of LA 2 and 1 RHD which is a D12 (which is always max hp) + con + 12

And incapable of taking animal, or human form, so no need for natural lycanthrope! But still able to qualify for Warshaper. Ironic.

Absolutely silly, but entirely fun to think about.

[Rijan_Sai]

Quick thought...

In regards to the "Lycanthrope cannot take its other forms because Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm)," does not Specific override General?


Special Qualities
A lycanthrope retains all the special qualities of the base creature and the base animal, and also gains those described below.

Alternate Form (Su)
A lycanthrope can assume the form of a specific animal (as indicated in its entry).

Changing to or from animal or hybrid form is a standard action.

A slain lycanthrope reverts to its humanoid form, although it remains dead. Separated body parts retain their animal form, however.

Afflicted lycanthropes find this ability difficult to control (see Lycanthropy as an Affliction, below), but natural lycanthropes have full control over this power.

As shown, the Alternate Form Special Quality of the Lycanthrope Monster Entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) states that you can change "to or from animal or hybrid form." Thus, you can.

That's all...

[big teej]

My brain is throwing up a big fat "DM's call" sign on the paragon. Personaly, I wouldn't allow it simply to keep the person within manageable limits (or alter it beyond what they would ever want to use if the person isn't the type to take a solid no without rules backing it).

oddly enough, a player of mine recently asked if they could take the paragon template as their class.

(i.e. break up all the niftiness over 20 levels, and no class features)

I loved the idea, as it jives well with how I handle people playing monstrous critters, but had to give him a raincheck because of how many newbies we have in the group.

[Tvtyrant]

A little off topic, but my favorite form of Lycanthrope is the Savanna Cat aka Serval from Sandstorm. It only gains one racial HD from the animal and nets the lycanthrope pounce, rake and improved grab. Goblin Were-Servals for the win!

[The Dark Fiddler]

Anybody who takes lycanthrope without going for a swarm form is missing out.

[Metahuman1]

A little off topic, but my favorite form of Lycanthrope is the Savanna Cat aka Serval from Sandstorm. It only gains one racial HD from the animal and nets the lycanthrope pounce, rake and improved grab. Goblin Were-Servals for the win!

I WILL PLAY THIS!!!!

Does this creature have LA of any sort?


Also, does anyone know if you can retrain the Racial HD into something useful with out loosing the Lycan Template?

[Vaz]

Yes, it has LA2 or 3 from Wereform (Afflicted or Natural).

Another 1HD creature with pounce is the Lynx, from one of the Forgotten Realms books, IIRC.

[Flickerdart]

But I disagree. You dont have the template, the animal does.
The animal is not distinct from you. This didn't work when you posted it last time, and it still doesn't work.

Magebred doesn't help you, because it can only be applied to animals, so either you apply it before and then Paragon's scored override it, or you try and apply it after and cannot because the creature is no longer valid as a target.

[Zombulian]

Vote goes for Dire Tortoise for actual Lycanthropy. Going first forever is nice.

Otherwise, Weresheep flaw for commoners is probably the best thing ever written.

[Metahuman1]

Yes, it has LA2 or 3 from Wereform (Afflicted or Natural).

Another 1HD creature with pounce is the Lynx, from one of the Forgotten Realms books, IIRC.

Huh, ok, that's a kill joy, but I think it can be worked around. Now, is there perhaps a way to get rid of the 1 racial hit die? Cause that would be Snazzy.

[Karnith]

If I remember correctly, it's LA is "LA: -"

In which case, it's not playable. Having checked the book, it actually doesn't have an LA entry, either; so by RAW, the lack of an LA in its entry means it's eligible; however, remember it's also grandfathered 3.0 material.
I'm a bit late, but actually the paragon template does have a level adjustment. WotC apparently didn't have a standard method of including LA at the time (3.0 being as slipshod as it is), so it's in a weird place. Page 156 of the ELH lists all monsters in that book by their Challenge Rating, and also includes ECLs where applicable. The ECL of a paragon Mind Flayer is given as 26. The ECL of a standard Mind Flayer is 15, so the LA of the paragon template is therefore 26-15=+11.

[Ruethgar]

Now I want a halfling were-cat mage bred paragon. Kneel before my fluffy fury!

Oh, and don't forget you can energy drain most racial HD away(have to leave 1 or die).


Magebred doesn't help you, because it can only be applied to animals, so either you apply it before and then Paragon's scored override it, or you try and apply it after and cannot because the creature is no longer valid as a target.

Paragon and Magebred are both applicable to the same animal as paragon does not change the type(even though it throws it far, far out of the normal ranges).


An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry) Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

Being that the Paragon template would be noted as part of the creature's entry and does not change the type, it would override the animal trait of requiring an intelligence of 1 or 2.

Also, it can assume animal form or hybrid form with the lycanthrope's alternate form ability since it specifically calls both forms out as viable transformations thus, as a more specific source of the ability in question, overriding the polymorph text prohibiting templated creatures.

Edit: Side note, if you are an afflicted lycanthrope, how the hell did you survive an encounter where you were bitten by a paragon creature?

[Immabozo]

I disagree on it not working. The animal of a lycanthrope, came from an animal, at some point. That animal spread a stronger vein of lycanthropy than another of it's kind. Then the man or woman whose lycanthropy that was contracted gets stats based off a more powerful animal. That is no reason it couldn't work.

As far as int goes, other templates sepecify animals with it are magical beasts. paragon specifies no type change, therefore, Int stays at two.

As far as surviving it, I'm sorry, i cannot share my secret, there can only be one highlander

[Flickerdart]

[QUOTE=Immabozo;15378820]I disagree on it not working. The animal of a lycanthrope, came from an animal, at some point. That animal spread a stronger vein of lycanthropy than another of it's kind. /QUOTE]
Except that's not how lycanthropy works.

Look, you can keep posting this half-baked idea of yours over and over again, but it's not suddenly going to flip from wrong to right. You cannot have a templated creature as your lycanthropic animal. End of story.

[TypoNinja]

Quick thought...

In regards to the "Lycanthrope cannot take its other forms because Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm)," does not Specific override General?



As shown, the Alternate Form Special Quality of the Lycanthrope Monster Entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) states that you can change "to or from animal or hybrid form." Thus, you can.

That's all...


I've always favored the interpretation of alternate form like so;

The forbiddance of taking a templated animal can reconciled as follows, You either shift to an animal of your type, which is fine. Or you switch to a Hybrid, a Hybrid is explicitly a half and half form, there is no living thing that exists as just a hybrid, as it doesn't exist without Alternate Form, it can't possibly be a form with a template attached. And finally your base form. You don't use Alternate Form to assume your base form, you stop using alternate form to assume your base form.

[Rijan_Sai]

Woks for me!
Satisfies fluff and mechanics to make it all work!

[Immabozo]

Except that's not how lycanthropy works.

Look, you can keep posting this half-baked idea of yours over and over again, but it's not suddenly going to flip from wrong to right. You cannot have a templated creature as your lycanthropic animal. End of story.

where does it say that isn't how it works? Or cant work that way? At some point there was a paragon lycanthrope, is the strain of lycanthropy that he spreads suddenly weaker than in him?

[Urpriest]

where does it say that isn't how it works? Or cant work that way? At some point there was a paragon lycanthrope, is the strain of lycanthropy that he spreads suddenly weaker than in him?

Animals don't spread lycanthropy, lycanthropes do.

[Flickerdart]

where does it say that isn't how it works? Or cant work that way? At some point there was a paragon lycanthrope, is the strain of lycanthropy that he spreads suddenly weaker than in him?
A paragon lycanthrope is not a lycanthrope of a paragon creature, it would be a paragon creature that is cursed with lycanthropy. It would pass on that curse, not its own paragon status. Pretty simple stuff.

[Immabozo]

A paragon lycanthrope is not a lycanthrope of a paragon creature, it would be a paragon creature that is cursed with lycanthropy. It would pass on that curse, not its own paragon status. Pretty simple stuff.

I see. Well where, other than the "cannot use alter self to take the form of a templated creature" where is it written that you cant do this?

[TypoNinja]

where does it say that isn't how it works? Or cant work that way? At some point there was a paragon lycanthrope, is the strain of lycanthropy that he spreads suddenly weaker than in him?


A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.

If you are a Lycanthrope of some variety you are one of an unmodified base creature of the appropriate variety.

If you want to be a Paragon Lycanthrope the Paragon must be applied to the Base Creature, not the Base Animal. This means you still pay the LA for it.

The wording of Alternate Form is specific enough that even if you found a regular Tiger, Magic'd it into a Paragon Tiger, Then Magic'd it up so that is spreads Lycanthropy, it would still only make an infected target turn into a base animal.

Lycanthropes Spread Lycanthropy, not Pargon-y or whatever ever template you want to try to attach to the base animal. A paragon lycanthrope is still going to turn you into a regular lycanthrope.

A Paragon were-tiger is going to be a Paragon were-tiger, not a were-paragon tiger.

[Immabozo]

If you are a Lycanthrope of some variety you are one of an unmodified base creature of the appropriate variety.

If you want to be a Paragon Lycanthrope the Paragon must be applied to the Base Creature, not the Base Animal. This means you still pay the LA for it.

The wording of Alternate Form is specific enough that even if you found a regular Tiger, Magic'd it into a Paragon Tiger, Then Magic'd it up so that is spreads Lycanthropy, it would still only make an infected target turn into a base animal.

Lycanthropes Spread Lycanthropy, not Pargon-y or whatever ever template you want to try to attach to the base animal. A paragon lycanthrope is still going to turn you into a regular lycanthrope.

A Paragon were-tiger is going to be a Paragon were-tiger, not a were-paragon tiger.

That was just mentioned. I am asking where such a thing is written.

[Flickerdart]

That was just mentioned. I am asking where such a thing is written.
Where is it written that Paragon can be applied to an animal, other than in the description of the Paragon template? Nowhere. QED, Paragon cannot be applied to animals.

[mattie_p]

All lycanthropes have the Alternate Form special ability. It usually looks like this:


Alternate Form (Su)
A werebear can assume the form of a brown bear or a bear-humanoid hybrid.

Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) has some special rules. d20srd.org helpfully has it hyperlinked.


Alternate Form
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

[TypoNinja]

That was just mentioned. I am asking where such a thing is written.

Ahh sorry guess I wasn't clear enough. The text I was quoting was rule text (from the SRD) Mattie gave a more in depth explanation as well.

Bluntly put, Lycanthrope shape shifting methods are specific and have rules, the rules specified under Alternate Form (the power that grants a lycanthrope shape shifting) forbid you from taking a templated form. This pretty clearly steps on the whole "stack templates on the animal" method of lycanthropy cheese.

[mattie_p]

This pretty clearly steps on the whole "stack templates on the animal" method of lycanthropy cheese.

Tauric and symbiotic, on the other hand....

[Immabozo]

We have already (in this very thread) gone over the technicality of Hybrids not having templates, even if the animal does. The hybrid does not exist outside it's use in lycanthrope. So it's natural stats are gotten from a blend of base creature, plus the animal. If the animal's stats are modified by a template, then the hybrid naturally has at least some of these stats.


Where is it written that Paragon can be applied to an animal, other than in the description of the Paragon template? Nowhere. QED, Paragon cannot be applied to animals.

Is this a serious argument? The description of the template says it can be applied "any creature" and "creature type is unchanged" that is pretty specific. Other templates will say "creature type is unchanged, animals become magical beasts" but not this one! So, since animals cannot have an int higher than 2, int stays at 2, since it's type was not changed.

There is nothing that says animals cannot have templates, there is nothing about these templates that change type away from animal, lycanthrope requires "any animal", then natural lycanthrope is not needed, because you cannot take animal form, because it is templated.

But like I said, hybrid is not templated because it's natural stats are a mix of animal and base creature. Not taking the form of a templated creature, technically.

[Flickerdart]

I'm going to explain this for the last time.

Just because there is no reminder that the animal becomes a magical beast doesn't mean that it doesn't become a magical beast. No animal can have Intelligence above 2, and the Paragon template does not counter that with a more specific rule.

However, that's irrelevant because you cannot gain the benefits of a template that you don't have. You either have the Paragon template on the entire character, or you have it on nothing. Adopting hybrid form does not bestow Paragon abilities upon you, because that would be transforming into a creature with a template (a Paragon Were-whatever). You cannot adopt a hybrid form that has the bonuses from Paragon but not the actual Paragon template because that doesn't make any sense by the rules.

I sincerely hope this is now clear to you.

[TuggyNE]

That is, you can have a Were-something that is also a Paragon, but you cannot have a Were-Paragon-something; the something that you are a were of cannot be templated in any way.

[Immabozo]

I'm going to explain this for the last time.

Just because there is no reminder that the animal becomes a magical beast doesn't mean that it doesn't become a magical beast. No animal can have Intelligence above 2, and the Paragon template does not counter that with a more specific rule.

However, that's irrelevant because you cannot gain the benefits of a template that you don't have. You either have the Paragon template on the entire character, or you have it on nothing. Adopting hybrid form does not bestow Paragon abilities upon you, because that would be transforming into a creature with a template (a Paragon Were-whatever). You cannot adopt a hybrid form that has the bonuses from Paragon but not the actual Paragon template because that doesn't make any sense by the rules.

I sincerely hope this is now clear to you.

The problem is that you and I are taking opposite interpretations of the "animal may have no more than 2 int. I see that, in this use, as a cap, the animal may not have 16 or 17 int, because it is limited to 2. Unless the type is changed, like to magical beast. I think this makes sense. If you read the fluff of the template, it does not make sense for a tiger, just because it is the epitome of that races evolutionary line, as the race was designed to be or just perfect breeding, to suddenly develop sentience higher than most humans.

You are taking the view that it becomes a magical beast. But the template specifies that type "is unchanged", therefore, application of the template may not change it to magical beast, because type doesn't change. So, the "int of 1 or 2" rule still applies and int may not be raised past 2.

Then, since no rule says that the animal cannot have templates, except you guys insisting it's so, which is not a rule, the animal has those 2 templates and it's animal type is unchanged. There is no rule that says it can only be an unaltered, or untemplated animal, the animal form is templated. The hybrid, is not templated. The base creature is not tempated. Which do you use? Well Alternate form says no tempates. So what are the hybrid form's natural statistics? base creature's str, dex, con, plus the base animal's str, dex and con, - 10 or -11 to each, speed, NA and such is the best value of the animal and the base creature (+2 for NA), animal form's feats are bonus feats to the base creature, all animal's special qualities are retained.

That is granted by the lycanthrope template. The template does not "transfer"

I understand your argument, so do not treat me like a child. If you do not feel up to maintaining a friendly intellectual debate between friends, feel free to leave the discussion. I don't wish to devolve into an over-the-internet screaming match or any sort of unpleasantness. This is an intellelectual debate, not an arguement, debate.

[Flickerdart]

You can continue to egregiously mis-interpret the rules, but given that literally nobody has agreed with any of your stances in the, what was it, three, four threads you made about this? I think it's safe to say you miiiiiight be wrong.

[Immabozo]

You can continue to egregiously mis-interpret the rules, but given that literally nobody has agreed with any of your stances in the, what was it, three, four threads you made about this? I think it's safe to say you miiiiiight be wrong.

People have agreed with me, one some points, but not others, others have agreed on others, but not some. But my grasp on the individual meanings of words is far above that of the normal American and on the points I am arguing, there is no question, but my arguement has been made over many posts, not all in the same thread and then some of them not worded properly, or in linear thought, kind of jumping around, as I seem to tend to do in writing long posts, often getting distracted and watching TV for two minutes and then not always keeping the same train of thought. What I have to do is thoroughly write out my thoughts, citing exact rules I am referencing, exact dictionary definitions of key words.

Because I will admit, the rules on this are very specific. But the downside of that is that once you get past that wall, although it may be hard or impossible, but once you do, the wiggle room is very large, because you just slipped past the very specific rules governing it.

The loophole is small, but it's there. Part requires knowing the exact definitions of important words, not something most people bother with, especially with the small words everyone sees all the time, like "a", "an", "the", "or", "to", etc.

[Vaz]

No. There is no wiggle room. There is looking at an exploit in the rules, something you have to specifically look for. This is not through bad phrasing but deliberately and obtusely deciding to hunt down and ignore what everyone else is saying.

That is the purpose of a TO, and not actually including it in normal play. You have to accept therefore that some some people have their 'RAW' different from yours, and that is to say that neither may be correct. I have come across the same thing with my Wu Jen/Archivist/Incantatrix/Geomancer/Archmage Build and several other TO 'exploits'. How your interpret that RAW is different to what others believe.

As you stand however, i see very little reason to go all this trouble when you can just go for a Tauric Humanoid/Paragon Animal Animal or whatever which gets the same results near enough.

[Immabozo]

No. There is no wiggle room. There is looking at an exploit in the rules, something you have to specifically look for. This is not through bad phrasing but deliberately and obtusely deciding to hunt down and ignore what everyone else is saying.

That is the purpose of a TO, and not actually including it in normal play. You have to accept therefore that some some people have their 'RAW' different from yours, and that is to say that neither may be correct. I have come across the same thing with my Wu Jen/Archivist/Incantatrix/Geomancer/Archmage Build and several other TO 'exploits'. How your interpret that RAW is different to what others believe.

As you stand however, i see very little reason to go all this trouble when you can just go for a Tauric Humanoid/Paragon Animal Animal or whatever which gets the same results near enough.

This is a total TO exploit and no DM would ever let it see play!

And you are quite right, lower LA too. I guess I just liked the lycanthrope flavor?