Druid Vermin Build

[Tychris1]

Alright, so i'm going to be playing a 3.5 game soon, and i've decided to break my mold and try a class i've never tried before. Druids. We're starting at level 2, and I want to build my Druid around using Vermin and transforming into Vermin. My current build is this:

Druid Level: 2

Stre: 10
Dex: 8
Con: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 18
Cha: 14

Feats: Natural Spell
Child of Winter

From there i'm not sure where to go, on the one hand I plan on using the Vermin Keeper Prc, but is it any better then just using this Web based (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a) alt system for Vermin companions, and then take the Vermin Shape build? This is my first time playing a Druid, so I honestly have no idea on how to distribute feats. I'm guessing Improved Natural Attack would be good, but i'm honestly at a lost.

[geekintheground]

i could be wrong, but i dont think a lvl 2 druid can have natural spell because you need to have the wild shape class feature which you dont get till lvl 5...

[The Viscount]

If you're taking vermin keeper, child of winter is mostly squandered, unless you got it for the SNA options.

[Tychris1]

i could be wrong, but i dont think a lvl 2 druid can have natural spell because you need to have the wild shape class feature which you dont get till lvl 5...

See! I'm Druid inept! Alright.... So I guess i'll take Exchew Material Components instead. Anything else?

[geekintheground]

youll need a feat or something if you want to become a vermin since druids normally dont get that ability (dire rat is a possibility though)

[Waker]

I do not have the book that Vermin Keeper is from, so I can't add as much to this thread as I would like. Not sure how it compares, but there is the Master of the Flies PrC from Savage Species that would let you Wildshape in a Swarm of vermin as well as Awaken and a few other little powers. It is strictly weaker than going straight Druid, but most PrCs are.

[Tychris1]

If you're taking vermin keeper, child of winter is mostly squandered, unless you got it for the SNA options.

Yes, that's why i'm trying to figure out whether to go with Vermin Keeper or not.

Removed. On the one hand, the size of the Companion is not to my lacking (Due to the web source allowing me to have capstone Vermin of colossal size), but it does seem to save me feats in that I won't have to get Vermin Shape.

I'll be changing around my stats, but currently I want to be a big front line fighter, smashing things up to the best of my abilities. Is the saved feat for Vermin Keeper worth it? It lets me get Natural Spell sooner, but I don't know what to think of it since it splits up my class base by a bit.

[eggynack]

See! I'm Druid inept! Alright.... So I guess i'll take Exchew Material Components instead. Anything else?
You should probably skip that one. It's pretty mediocre on a wizard, and those guys get a bunch of material component requirements. Druids have a really small number of spells with material components, and a good number of those are priced components. If you're trying to summon stuff, ashbound summoning and augment summoning are always neat. I don't think that ashbound and child of winter are mutually exclusive. Extend spell is always neat too. I don't know how good vermin companion and vermin shape are, but they're there if you want thematically relevant stuff.

[Urpriest]

Yes, that's why i'm trying to figure out whether to go with Vermin Keeper or not.

Here is the aforementioned Vermin Keeper (http://dndtools.eu/classes/vermin-keeper/). On the one hand, the size of the Companion is not to my lacking (Due to the web source allowing me to have capstone Vermin of colossal size), but it does seem to save me feats in that I won't have to get Vermin Shape.

I'll be changing around my stats, but currently I want to be a big front line fighter, smashing things up to the best of my abilities. Is the saved feat for Vermin Keeper worth it? It lets me get Natural Spell sooner, but I don't know what to think of it since it splits up my class base by a bit.

Vermin Keeper doesn't allow you to get Natural Spell any sooner, seeing as you can't enter it till level 6 anyway.

Edit: Misunderstood your point. Vermin Keeper's Vermin Wild Shape is way worse than Vermin Wild Shape for a bruiser-type, since you get Large a lot later as a Vermin Keeper and Medium vermin won't be worth much to you. Especially if you're starting at level 2 you probably don't want to wait until 12th level to gain a decent combat form.

Provided you can get both Ashbound and Child of Winter, I'd go for those two feats at first level. With them as a 2nd level character your summons will last for 4 rounds, which is ample, and they'll have a much easier time hitting. Monstrous Spiders have Tremorsense and Webs, and the other two are at least decent combatants, so you're picking up some good options with your feat to tide you over till Wild Shape.

If you want Vermin forms to be your primary Wild Shape combat forms, then essentially the only option for you is Vermin Wild Shape, since all the other options I'm aware of (City-Shape, Vermin Keeper) give Large really late. Yeah, that means picking up either Natural Spell or Vermin Wild Shape at 9th (the latter is probably a better option since Medium Vermin aren't all that great as combat forms anyway), unless you want to dip to get a bonus feat earlier. Another option is to focus on vermin-esque Aberration forms with Aberrant Blood and Aberration Wild Shape, these will probably be more potent but might not fit your desired theme.

Vermin Companion would give you a one level discount on Giant Ant Soliders and Giant Bombardier Beetles and a three-level discount on Giant Praying Mantis and Giant Wasp. Unless you were going for those in particular, better to stick with the Vermin Druid Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a).

[CyberThread]

may want to remove that link, before a mod comes down on yeah. One of those things on protecting the site from WOTC lawyers, although that is a great even if not legitimate site.


What sort of animal companions are open for a vermin?

[Vaz]

It doesn't cover transforming into a Druid, but this ACF;

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a

allows you take vermin in place of animals. They aren't as good or varied, but increasing the level up becomes much better (the exception being you cannot Awaken them). Scorpions and Centipedes (take from the A+EG the collar of shrinking) become quite effective.

One of the biggest things when I was playing mine as a Vermin Druid (mad zookeeper) was that my players tried to influence them, but they're mindless.

[Tychris1]

Yes, that ACF is what made me second guess taking Vermin Keeper.

Ashbound in conjunction with Child of Winter seems good, so i'll take that instead of Eschew Materials. Hmmmm..... On second thought, i'll just ditch Vermin Keeper and go for the feat Druid instead.

Alright, so this should be my feat progression?

3rd:(Whatever)
6th: Natural Spell
9th: Vermin Shape
12th: Improved Natural Attack
15th: (Whatever)
18th: (Whatever)

Using the ACF, are there any particular Vermin I should be looking out for as I progress in level? I'm thinking my Vermin Companion progression would be something like:

1st: (Toss up between Spider and Centipede)
4th: Spider/Centipede
7th: Giant Stag Beetle
10th: Spider
13th: Spider
16th: Centipede

Is that about right? Taking the Aberration path for Wild Shape doesn't mesh with my desired theme too well, but what are some example of Vermin-esque Aberration forms? The only one I can think of is the Vermiurge and that's an epic level monster. Still, if they are superior enough (And not a giant stretch, like, say a Grick) I would definitely consider it.

[Vaz]

What race are you planning on going as?

Venerable Dragonwrought Jungle Kobold with Embed Spell Focus (3), Natural Spell (6), and Eschew Materials (9) with Vermin Shape (12 - gets you Monstrous Scorpion for 23 Strength, and Poison for Venomfire/Poison to deal a DC18 1d6 Con damage). Wild Cohort can be used in conjunction with the ACF to have two Vermin Companions, while Shapechange is a Polymorph spell, and when you get access to it, you can gain free Temporary HP equal to your character level, AS A SWIFT ACTION.

[Tychris1]

I was planning on going as a Human.

[Urpriest]

What race are you planning on going as?

Venerable Dragonwrought Jungle Kobold with Embed Spell Focus (3), Natural Spell (6), and Eschew Materials (9) with Vermin Shape (12 - gets you Monstrous Scorpion for 23 Strength, and Poison for Venomfire/Poison to deal a DC18 1d6 Con damage). Wild Cohort can be used in conjunction with the ACF to have two Vermin Companions, while Shapechange is a Polymorph spell, and when you get access to it, you can gain free Temporary HP equal to your character level, AS A SWIFT ACTION.

What's Eschew Materials in there for? Natural Spell covers material components.

In terms of forms, Monstrous Scorpion does look decent. The Master of Many Forms Bible suggests Giant Stag Beetle, Knell Beetle, Leechwalker, and Sword Spider, while the handbook on MinMaxBoards (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940.msg26080#msg26080) has more suggestions. Note in particular that That Damn Crab is a Vermin.

In terms of insectoid Aberrations, Chuuls sort of fit the bill, as do Rust Monsters/Folugubs. Harpoon Spiders definitely work. Driders and Scorrow are a little weird but doable. But yeah, the list will be more limited.

As a frontliner Wildshape Druid, unless you're planning to rely on Mouthpick weapons the feat Improved Unarmed Strike will eventually be essential. Beyond that, I'd pick a general combat style (BFC, grappling, grappling via BFC, raw damage...) and make the rest of your feats key off of that.

[Vaz]

Had a brainfart. Derp.

[Tychris1]

That guide is very useful, thanks Ur Priest.

Alright, so thanks to that I have a better understanding of my feat progression/Wild Shape progression. My build would focus on Grappling the opponet to death, with poisons/stat drains thrown in, and a dash of Raw Damage.

Feats;
3rd Level: Improved Unarmed Strike
6th Level: Natural Spell
9th Level: Vermin Shape (I know the guide says it's bad, but I plan on only using Vermin anyway)
12th Level: Multiattack
15th Level: Improved Natural Strike
18th Level: Beastial Charge

Forms;
9th (7th): Monstrous Crab
10th: Monstrous Toebiter
12th: Chelicera
13th: Widowmaker
15th: Bonespear

And once I get Megalodon empowerement, well, that's a whole different ball game. Anyway, is this about right? If I can pick up a Vestment of Verminshape i'll move all the feats down their levels, but it's supposed to be a anti magic setting so I think I might have to go with Vermin Shape when I hit level 9.