PDA

View Full Version : HELP! New to Gestalt: Lvl 18;Sweet rolled stats; now what?



DreamQuestin
2013-06-01, 10:28 PM
Greetings folks!

Twice in as many months I am left at a loss what to create for a character. Not bad for 32 years of playing, but still daunting :).

So the rolls I have for stats: 17, 16, 16, 16, 14, 13

*Double standard (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) feats. Bonus feats are not doubled.
Monsters will have the same addition and may have their feat selection built anew.

*Whenever an ability score boost is gained (4, 8, 12, 16, 20) two (instead of one) abilities go up by 1.

*Two extra skill points per level. Eight bonus for first level.

*Starting gold is: 530,000 . No epic items.

Gestalt. Level 18. Home-brewed post-apocalyptic Faerun (overtaken by evil beings). No Eberron/Dragon Lance sources but most other official sources allowed (not online or Dragon Magazine).

I would really like to play an elf, I believe.

That's as far as I get. I have spent hours pouring over the forums with various character build ideas but none have spoken to me per se.

Part of the problem is that I always create characters to role, I've never focused on the mechanics but I suspect this time I need to. Can I have both? Character flavour and some "pop, Pop, POP"?

My favoured class is probably Bard or Paladin though I play a lot of clerics (mostly out of necessity for a game). I would like to be able to do some melee and magic, something I can build a good story with.

I welcome suggestions because this is really beyond my usual scope.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-01, 10:56 PM
Do you want to be able to turn anyone to your cause, manipulating dozens or hundreds of people to serve your own goals? Do you want to slay the Pit's greatest demons (or Celestia's greatest angels) with your own hand? Or would you become your god's most powerful avatar on the Material Plane?

I find, with high-level characters, it's always best to start with the awesome and then work down to the mechanics.

Some of my favorite gestalt builds in no particular order, are

Sorcerer/Favored Soul. Like the Mystic Theurge on steroids, you can know 8 different 9th-level spells and cast them all spontaneously, and both sides cast off CHA, which saves you money.
Beguiler//Rogue. It speaks for itself (pun completely intended). Sneak all the things!
Swordsage//Cleric. WIS synergy, and you never need to deal with refreshing maneuvers (because you can fill actions with cleric spells).

Waker
2013-06-01, 11:06 PM
Do you have any idea of what the rest of the party is considering? Knowing what they play may help narrow down what would be good to add to the mix. Remember also that a good rule to follow in gestalt games is to mix one active class with a passive class.

Anyways, since you seem to like Bards and Paladins, how about a mix of the two (almost)? Bard//Crusader would let you be a character with good HD, BAB, Skills, Saves, access to buffing effects (Music, White Raven) as well as access to magic and maneuvers. In combat, most of your active abilities would revolve around the Crusader, with Inspire Courage being a supplement. Outside of combat, your magic and ample skills make you useful. If you were really trying to drive home the feel of a divine champion you could use the Bardic Sage or Divine Bard variants.

DreamQuestin
2013-06-01, 11:07 PM
Thank you for your quick reply Attila! Such a gentleman coming to the aid of a lady :)


Do you want to be able to turn anyone to your cause, manipulating dozens or hundreds of people to serve your own goals? Do you want to slay the Pit's greatest demons (or Celestia's greatest angels) with your own hand? Or would you become your god's most powerful avatar on the Material Plane?

I find, with high-level characters, it's always best to start with the awesome and then work down to the mechanics.
Fair enough. The thought of being able to destroy evil in droves is most appealing. I suspect a lot of this campaign will be fighting evil to save the world kind of thing. I also like the notion of an elf coming to save the shorter lived races (as well as her own people/lands of course :) )



Some of my favorite gestalt builds in no particular order, are

Sorcerer/Favored Soul. Like the Mystic Theurge on steroids, you can know 8 different 9th-level spells and cast them all spontaneously, and both sides cast off CHA, which saves you money.
Beguiler//Rogue. It speaks for itself (pun completely intended). Sneak all the things!
Swordsage//Cleric. WIS synergy, and you never need to deal with refreshing maneuvers (because you can fill actions with cleric spells).


Sorceror/Favoured Soul sounds interesting. Read someone postulating a Bard/favoured Soul, but Sorceror sounds nice. Would have to keep far from melee.

DreamQuestin
2013-06-01, 11:14 PM
Thank you Waker :) for the fast response too. I am giving myself a headache working on this :)


Do you have any idea of what the rest of the party is considering? Knowing what they play may help narrow down what would be good to add to the mix. Remember also that a good rule to follow in gestalt games is to mix one active class with a passive class.

Sadly, no. Though the DM says that he builds the campaigns around the characters, so we should play something we like not something that will pigeon hole a niche.



Anyways, since you seem to like Bards and Paladins, how about a mix of the two (almost)? Bard//Crusader would let you be a character with good HD, BAB, Skills, Saves, access to buffing effects (Music, White Raven) as well as access to magic and maneuvers. In combat, most of your active abilities would revolve around the Crusader, with Inspire Courage being a supplement. Outside of combat, your magic and ample skills make you useful. If you were really trying to drive home the feel of a divine champion you could use the Bardic Sage or Divine Bard variants.

A Crusader really is quite like a Paladin, isn't she? I've never really looked at the class. Should have done...not a huge fan of the Lawful Good. Chaotic Good is more my style.

This could be a fun combo...but does it really fit with an elf?

Jeff the Green
2013-06-01, 11:23 PM
First, are you okay with being evil? Because one of the niftiest melee-magic combos in gestalt is paladin of tyranny//sorcerer. You get Charisma to saves and charisma-based casting. You could even be a bard/paladin of tyranny/bard//sorcerer, using the Devoted Performer feat (CA) to get back into bard after becoming lawful to enter PoT.

Another fun one is Gloura//Sorcerer. Gloura's a 7 hd +2 LA fey from Underdark. It's also available online here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e). They cast as 7th-level bards and get Charisma to AC and saves, plus some really nice stats. Combine that with sorcerer for more versatile casting, a martial build (crusader would be nice), or something else. Since you're starting at 18th, you could even combine that with the above idea, making a gloura/paladin of tyranny//sorcerer.

Another option for is a factotum//beguiler. Intelligence synergy up the wazoo, nifty spells, and, with all the feats you have, a metric ****ton of inspiration points to get you extra standard actions to cast your spells.

The biggest problem with two casting classes is that while you'll have great stamina, you will have the problem of not being able to cast any more than a non-gestalt class. And at level 18, you have so many spells from any one class you probably won't run out anyway. So you usually want to pair an active class (casting, ToB, etc.) with a passive class (Incarnum, factotum, binder). Incarnum's good on a build that doesn't dump Constitution (i.e. any build) and while the book's layout is horrible, it's fairly easy to learn from guides online.

Also, FYI, the convention for gestalt combinations is class x//class y. It's less confusing for when there's multiclass on both sides, like a cleric/thaumaturge//wizard/archmage.

Waker
2013-06-01, 11:23 PM
Sadly, no. Though the DM says that he builds the campaigns around the characters, so we should play something we like not something that will pigeon hole a niche.
I meant more along the lines of reducing redundancy, like if the party wound up with several rogues.


A Crusader really is quite like a Paladin, isn't she? I've never really looked at the class. Should have done...not a huge fan of the Lawful Good. Chaotic Good is more my style.

This could be a fun combo...but does it really fit with an elf?

Crusaders don't have a restricted alignment like a Paladin. You choose your alignment and become a champion of it. So you could be a Crusader of Chaos or Good. Thematically they are very similar to Paladins, you are a divine champion that relies on maneuvers rather than spells. You get sorta Divine Grace (Cha to will svs), Smite, as well as the usual armor and weapon proficiencies.
Mechanically they also mesh very well with Bards because of the White Raven school, which focuses around team buffs. Between Devoted Spirit and the Bard's spell list, you can make a rather competent healer as well. Elves can do fine as Crusaders and of course as Bards. If you went this route you could be a "Paladin" of Corellon Larethian.


There's actually a PrC specifically for that—Eternal Blade.Eternal Blade is rather cool, but it seems like it would be a better fit for Warblade, what with the various Int bonus effects.

Jeff the Green
2013-06-01, 11:25 PM
A Crusader really is quite like a Paladin, isn't she? I've never really looked at the class. Should have done...not a huge fan of the Lawful Good. Chaotic Good is more my style.

This could be a fun combo...but does it really fit with an elf?

There's actually a PrC specifically for that—Eternal Blade.

DreamQuestin
2013-06-01, 11:30 PM
Greetings and thank you for your suggestions Jeff!


First, are you okay with being evil? Because one of the niftiest melee-magic combos in gestalt is paladin of tyranny//sorcerer. You get Charisma to saves and charisma-based casting. You could even be a bard/paladin of tyranny/bard//sorcerer, using the Devoted Performer feat (CA) to get back into bard after becoming lawful to enter PoT.

Evil is not allowed. We are meant to combat evil :)





The biggest problem with two casting classes is that while you'll have great stamina, you will have the problem of not being able to cast any more than a non-gestalt class. And at level 18, you have so many spells from any one class you probably won't run out anyway. So you usually want to pair an active class (casting, ToB, etc.) with a passive class (Incarnum, factotum, binder). Incarnum's good on a build that doesn't dump Constitution (i.e. any build) and while the book's layout is horrible, it's fairly easy to learn from guides online.

Also, FYI, the convention for gestalt combinations is class x//class y. It's less confusing for when there's multiclass on both sides, like a cleric/thaumaturge//wizard/archmage.

I think I would be wise to keep it a bit simpler, not so many dipping in this and that as this is a lot to get used to.

I am finding the Crusader/Bard or Crusader/Divine Bard maybe starting to take root in the appeal category :)

DMVerdandi
2013-06-01, 11:34 PM
Greetings folks!

Twice in as many months I am left at a loss what to create for a character. Not bad for 32 years of playing, but still daunting :).

So the rolls I have for stats: 17, 16, 16, 16, 14, 13

*Double standard (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) feats. Bonus feats are not doubled.
Monsters will have the same addition and may have their feat selection built anew.

*Whenever an ability score boost is gained (4, 8, 12, 16, 20) two (instead of one) abilities go up by 1.

*Two extra skill points per level. Eight bonus for first level.

*Starting gold is: 530,000 . No epic items.

Gestalt. Level 18. Home-brewed post-apocalyptic Faerun (overtaken by evil beings). No Eberron/Dragon Lance sources but most other official sources allowed (not online or Dragon Magazine).

I would really like to play an elf, I believe.

That's as far as I get. I have spent hours pouring over the forums with various character build ideas but none have spoken to me per se.

Part of the problem is that I always create characters to role, I've never focused on the mechanics but I suspect this time I need to. Can I have both? Character flavour and some "pop, Pop, POP"?

My favoured class is probably Bard or Paladin though I play a lot of clerics (mostly out of necessity for a game). I would like to be able to do some melee and magic, something I can build a good story with.

I welcome suggestions because this is really beyond my usual scope.

Hmm...
So all we know is that you want to be an elf, who can do melee and magic...
18 levels.



Since I don't quite know if you can use TOB or not, I am going to start with a generic as possible build. Fighter//Archivist 20. It is going to be a bit more MAD than a cleric, BUT, the ability to gain ANY divine spell is just too awesome to miss up. It's really good.
Since you can double down on ability increases, Spend ALL of them on INT-WIS.

Build your prayer-book on any theme you like.
I would also suggest either creating a high level spell, or wishing that you can prepare any spell without a book. The whole book thing disturbs me to no end. You can turn into a monster, but you can't give yourself eidetic memory? Bullcrap.


If that isn't tickling your fancy, let's say you DO have access to TOB.
Wizard//Warblade for some INT goodness. Pick up arcane strike.

Finally, Warblade//STP erudite is best gestalt of all if you can get it. DO IT.
Best spells, best variety, Psionics, Maneuvers, INT focus, and great flavor.


One thing about all of the things I have presented you with is most of them use INT as a main stat to focus on. THAT is where you will get your character from. The quality that embodies him.


Now, if it's intelligence, there will be a calculating factor to the elf. It doesn't have to be crazy deductive reasoning (Though it can). It COULD be knowledge of subjects studied, local lore, or anything of the sort.


I think a cool concept for an elf whom is good at magic and weapons is grizzled mercenary. No pretty-boy legolas here. Instead make him a street-tough. Perhaps a Criminal Mastermind or something. Definitely a scoundrel though. I would dump charisma, just so everyone doesn't start drooling over the guy.
Make him a lovable jerk-off. Like a mafioso or something. A tough-guy who's got brains, brawn, but somehow is scary. Maybe he isn't a strong and silent type. Maybe he talks TOO much. Maybe the way he talks is what is intimidating about him. Like someone who profiles people at first glance and makes them cry, just so he can feel good about himself.


I say make this guy an old vet, turned to mercenary work. Part of the REALLY dangerous group of guys who weren't mages, weren't fighters, but better than both. A guy who did push-ups while reciting magical/psionic formulas. A KILLER. And best yet, he only cares about profit. Money, glory, women, booze.
And him being an elf, he is willing to work patiently and dilligently to get what he wants. He has a long time to enjoy the reward, as well as the task.

Hell, lets say he is a grey elf from the elven cities, and is an ex-special ops hitman, so that he can have a group of tough as nails elves right there with him.

Think Expendables+Elves.:smallcool:

Jeff the Green
2013-06-01, 11:38 PM
I think I would be wise to keep it a bit simpler, not so many dipping in this and that as this is a lot to get used to.

I am finding the Crusader/Bard or Crusader/Divine Bard maybe starting to take root in the appeal category :)

That works fine, but you might consider crusader/bard//something. I'd actually go bard 4/crusader 16. Pick up Song of the White Raven. You can now activate Inspire Courage as a swift action and your crusader levels stack with bard to determine the bonus you give.

For the other side, binder is nice, but has an, if not exactly evil, unsavory flavor. Incarnum's always good, and Incarnate would shore up your Will saves.

DreamQuestin
2013-06-01, 11:50 PM
There's actually a PrC specifically for that—Eternal Blade.
I was looking at that as I explored Elf PrC, not sure how I would like having an 'alter ego' visiting me all the time :). Or if the DM would like it.

Still, it has a LOT of flavour.

Waker
2013-06-01, 11:52 PM
I think I would be wise to keep it a bit simpler, not so many dipping in this and that as this is a lot to get used to.

I am finding the Crusader/Bard or Crusader/Divine Bard maybe starting to take root in the appeal category :)

Well, if you want a nice simple build, you could go Bard/Virtuoso//Crusader. With that combination you would have D10 HD, All Good saves (+Cha to Will), Best BAB, 6 Skill Points per lvl, Mettle (Evasion for Fort/Will), Bardic Music, Nearly Full Bardic Casting, 9th Maneuvers and so on. Virtuoso is added because it gives access to several very nice performances and loses very little.
Feats to consider:
Battle Caster- Getting this would allow to medium armor not interfere with your casting. Mithril Fullplate is nice when you can afford it.
Song of the Heart- Increases the effect of your Bardic Music. Very swanky.
Melodic Casting- You can maintain your performance while activating magic items and use perform in place of concentration. Handy to have.
Song of the White Raven-Less useful in gestalt, but activating Inspire Courage as a Swift Action is still good.
Dragonfire Inspiration- You know it and love it. Boosting allies is what you do.
Lingering Inspiration- Effects from your performances last longer.
Adaptive Style- Being able to swap out maneuvers on the fly can save your bacon if you find yourself in need of DR Piercing Attacks or something else.
Extra Granted Maneuver- Having more maneuvers ready is never a bad thing.

DreamQuestin
2013-06-01, 11:57 PM
Thank you DM Verdandi! I do appreciate your advice.


Hmm...
So all we know is that you want to be an elf, who can do melee and magic...
18 levels.

Sources:
Book of Exalted Deeds
Book of Vile Darkness
Champions of Ruin
Champions of Valor
Cityscape
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Champion
Complete Divine
Complete Mage
Complete Prestige Classes
Complete Psionic
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior
Desert Heroes
Draconomicon
Dragon Magic
Drow of the Underdark
Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5
Dungeon Master's Guide II 3.5
Dungeonscape
Elder Evils
Exemplars of Evil
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Faiths and Pantheons
Fiend Folio
Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss
FR Anauroch, The Empire of Shade
FR Campaign Setting
FR Grand History of the Realms
FR Lords of Darkness
FR Lost Empires of Faerun
FR Mysteries of the Moonsea
FR Power of Faerun
FR Serpent Kingdoms
FR Silver Marches
FR The Shining South
FR Underdark
FR Waterdeep, City of Splendors
Frostburn
Ghostwalk
Hell's Foes
Heroes of Battle
Heroes of Horror
Libris Mortis, The Book of the Undead
Lords of Madness, The Book of Aberations
Lost Dragons of Faerun
Magic Item Compendium
Magic of Faerun
Magic of Incarnum
Miniatures Handbook
Monster Manual 3.5 - Monster Manual V 3.5 (Including MM II)
Monsters of Faerun
Planar Handbook
Player's Handbook 3.5
Player's Handbook II 3.5
Races of Destiny
Races of Faerun
Races of Stone
Races of the Dragon
Races of the Wild
Sandstorm
Savage Species
Spell Compendium
Stormwrack
The Mind's Eye
Tome of Battle, the Book of Nine Swords
Tome of Magic
Unearthed Arcana
Way of the Rogue

I think a cool concept for an elf whom is good at magic and weapons is grizzled mercenary. No pretty-boy legolas here. Instead make him a street-tough. Perhaps a Criminal Mastermind or something. Definitely a scoundrel though. I would dump charisma, just so everyone doesn't start drooling over the guy.
Make him a lovable jerk-off. Like a mafioso or something. A tough-guy who's got brains, brawn, but somehow is scary. Maybe he isn't a strong and silent type. Maybe he talks TOO much. Maybe the way he talks is what is intimidating about him. Like someone who profiles people at first glance and makes them cry, just so he can feel good about himself.



I say make this guy an old vet, turned to mercenary work. Part of the REALLY dangerous group of guys who weren't mages, weren't fighters, but better than both. A guy who did push-ups while reciting magical/psionic formulas. A KILLER. And best yet, he only cares about profit. Money, glory, women, booze.
And him being an elf, he is willing to work patiently and dilligently to get what he wants. He has a long time to enjoy the reward, as well as the task.

Hell, lets say he is a grey elf from the elven cities, and is an ex-special ops hitman, so that he can have a group of tough as nails elves right there with him.

Think Expendables+Elves.:smallcool:
Replace guy with gal and that could be most interesting lol. I may consider that for my next character :) LOTs of flavour there :)

Have you any thoughts on a (Divine)Bard/Crusader build?

DreamQuestin
2013-06-02, 12:00 AM
Well, if you want a nice simple build, you could go Bard/Virtuoso//Crusader. With that combination you would have D10 HD, All Good saves (+Cha to Will), Best BAB, 6 Skill Points per lvl, Mettle (Evasion for Fort/Will), Bardic Music, Nearly Full Bardic Casting, 9th Maneuvers and so on. Virtuoso is added because it gives access to several very nice performances and loses very little.
Feats to consider:
Battle Caster- Getting this would allow to medium armor not interfere with your casting. Mithril Fullplate is nice when you can afford it.
Song of the Heart- Increases the effect of your Bardic Music. Very swanky.
Melodic Casting- You can maintain your performance while activating magic items and use perform in place of concentration. Handy to have.
Song of the White Raven-Less useful in gestalt, but activating Inspire Courage as a Swift Action is still good.
Dragonfire Inspiration- You know it and love it. Boosting allies is what you do.
Lingering Inspiration- Effects from your performances last longer.
Adaptive Style- Being able to swap out maneuvers on the fly can save your bacon if you find yourself in need of DR Piercing Attacks or something else.
Extra Granted Maneuver- Having more maneuvers ready is never a bad thing.
I think we are onto something here - this one is speaking to me :))

I have seen reference to these maneuvers, but I confess I am not sure exactly what they are? They sound kind of like Karate stances or something :).

Randomguy
2013-06-02, 12:01 AM
Have you considered going into the War Chanter prestige class? There's also the Paladin of Freedom variant, which is basically paladin but Chaotic Good instead of LG.

Put the War Chanter levels on the same side as the melee character levels so you don't interfere with your bard casting progression, so something like Bard 20//Paladin of Freedom 4/War Chanter 10/Paladin of freedom 6 or alternatively Crusader instead of Paladin of freedom.

DreamQuestin
2013-06-02, 12:08 AM
Thank you Randomguy, I do very much appreciate your help.


Have you considered going into the War Chanter prestige class? There's also the Paladin of Freedom variant, which is basically paladin but Chaotic Good instead of LG.

Put the War Chanter levels on the same side as the melee character levels so you don't interfere with your bard casting progression, so something like Bard 20//Paladin of Freedom 4/War Chanter 10/Paladin of freedom 6 or alternatively Crusader instead of Paladin of freedom.

As this is my first real foray into gestalt, I think it best to keep the build as simple as can be and still hold some optimization :). Two PrC will just start to confuse me, I think. I will certainly look at the Chanter for future characters tho, haven't looked at it before this.

Waker
2013-06-02, 12:12 AM
I think we are onto something here - this one is speaking to me :))

I have seen reference to these maneuvers, but I confess I am not sure exactly what they are? They sound kind of like Karate stances or something :).

Maneuvers are special moves and combat forms introduced in Tome of Battle. They come in a few different forms.
Strikes-Standard Action Attacks that usually deal damage and have a carrier effect. This may include things like healing yourself or others, stunning the enemy, knocking them over or something else entirely.
Counter-These are Immediate Actions in response to something else. This may include counterattacking, taking the blow for an ally or something else.
Boosts-These are Swift Action options that grant you some special effect, like making a jump as a swift action.
Stances- Are continuous effects that grant some bonus or ability. You can maintain one stance at a time.

Each Style also has a different focus on what it does. White Raven for instance is a Style that emphasizes aiding allies in some fashion, such as granting them bonuses to AC or letting them take extra actions.

DreamQuestin
2013-06-02, 12:25 AM
Maneuvers are special moves and combat forms introduced in Tome of Battle. They come in a few different forms.
Strikes-Standard Action Attacks that usually deal damage and have a carrier effect. This may include things like healing yourself or others, stunning the enemy, knocking them over or something else entirely.
Counter-These are Immediate Actions in response to something else. This may include counterattacking, taking the blow for an ally or something else.
Boosts-These are Swift Action options that grant you some special effect, like making a jump as a swift action.
Stances- Are continuous effects that grant some bonus or ability. You can maintain one stance at a time.

Each Style also has a different focus on what it does. White Raven for instance is a Style that emphasizes aiding allies in some fashion, such as granting them bonuses to AC or letting them take extra actions.
Ah! Thank you :). I will go read through the ToB. Wonder why so many DMs dislike that book so?

This build was on another thread, not as simple as I had asked, but with all the changes on one side of the equation and all related...maybe I can cope.

Do you agree with this combo?
Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8 // Crusader 20

(I will only be 18 so shy two virtuoso levels)

Waker
2013-06-02, 12:35 AM
Ah! Thank you :). I will go read through the ToB. Wonder why so many DMs dislike that book so?
Various reasons. Many feel that it seems too much like magic. Or they claim that ToB is OP. Or they dislike the flavor and say it's too anime/wuxia.




Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8 // Crusader 20

Do you mean is this a good build? Sure, it works just fine. You would lose a tiny bit of skills and saves in exchange for more powerful spells, which more than makes up for it. I didn't suggest it earlier as it is more cluttered than what I thought you wanted.

DreamQuestin
2013-06-02, 12:42 AM
Do you mean is this a good build? Sure, it works just fine. You would lose a tiny bit of skills and saves in exchange for more powerful spells, which more than makes up for it. I didn't suggest it earlier as it is more cluttered than what I thought you wanted.

I am trying to be brave here LOL.

I thank you so very much for your guidance. I am going to go try and do some math. Well, mostly let Heroforge do math with a lot of pointing :)

Thank you Thank you Thank you :)

Douglas
2013-06-02, 12:45 AM
I have seen reference to these maneuvers, but I confess I am not sure exactly what they are? They sound kind of like Karate stances or something :).
That's kind of what they are. They're special combat moves, so a fighter-type can say "I execute such-and-such overhand sweep" (or whatever) instead of "I attack". They are the core mechanic of Tome of Battle, and critically important to it.


Wonder why so many DMs dislike that book so?
A combination of knee-jerk reaction to a resemblance to certain types of anime and the fact that a low-optimization ToB character will thoroughly outclass a similarly low-optimization core melee character. The potential for high optimization is about the same, but the base almost-no-op level of power is substantially higher.


This build was on another thread, not as simple as I had asked, but with all the changes on one side of the equation and all related...maybe I can cope.

Do you agree with this combo?
Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8 // Crusader 20

(I will only be 18 so shy two virtuoso levels)
That's a pretty good bard side, yes.

Is your concern about simplicity centered on the build process, or in-play handling? If it's for building, we can break things down and explain in detail as we go. If your DM will allow 2 PrCs at the same level, you could address Crusader's biggest limitation (low number of maneuvers readied/granted) without losing anything significant (I'd recommend Crusader 13/Master of Nine 5).

You will definitely want to pick up the Arcane Strike feat. Dump a level X spell for +X attack and +Xd4 damage all round long any time you need it, and it doesn't even cost an action.

Oh yeah, are flaws (Unearthed Arcana and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)) allowed?

Jeff the Green
2013-06-02, 12:48 AM
Ah! Thank you :). I will go read through the ToB. Wonder why so many DMs dislike that book so?

There was a thread that either died or was locked a few days ago (I wasn't paying attention after the first couple pages, but I'd bet locked). A general summary is that for some people it feels too much like magic, it's a new system people have to learn, it has a very high optimization floor relative to most other things so can seem overpowered less optimized parties, and the fluff is kind of stupid. The first one I was willing to grant, but then someone who was familiar with old schools of martial arts (like swordfighting, not fist and foot) pointed out that it's actually very similar to old styles. The new system and high floor can definitely be problems in some groups, particularly those that are more casual. The last one I really don't understand, since it says right in the DMG (PHB?) that refluffing's fine. You're welcome to rename maneuvers and stances IC, or even not refer to them at all.


Do you agree with this combo?
Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8 // Crusader 20

(I will only be 18 so shy two virtuoso levels)

That looks pretty good to me. I'd recommend picking up mostly buffing spells with a few good utility ones. Shapechange is the obvious, but may be overkill. Wands are your friend; with the double feats you can spare Quicken spell and Metamagic Spell Trigger feat to apply buffs as swift actions. Stick them in wand chambers. I'd also recommend picking up a runestaff, which will let you cast spells you don't know and/or aren't on your list.

Waker
2013-06-02, 01:13 AM
If you go the route of Sublime Chord, you might consider Extra Spell to be a useful feat, especially since you have so many. Grabbing extra spells from the Sorc/Wiz spell list is nothing to be scoffed at.
For amusement sake, you could also get Obtain/Improved Familiar to get a Hippogryph for a mount. That will further confuse the issue and make everyone think you really are playing a Paladin.

Jeff the Green
2013-06-02, 01:29 AM
For amusement sake, you could also get Obtain/Improved Familiar to get a Hippogryph for a mount. That will further confuse the issue and make everyone think you really are playing a Paladin.

Also, familiars have half your HP. Normally this is lousy, but not so for crusaders, especially when a bunch of your maneuvers will let you heal him. Plus, since most maneuvers are standard actions, you don't have the standard problem for mounted combat of not being able to do full attacks.

DreamQuestin
2013-06-02, 01:30 AM
Greetings douglas and thank you for your assistance :)




That's a pretty good bard side, yes.

Is your concern about simplicity centered on the build process, or in-play handling? If it's for building, we can break things down and explain in detail as we go. If your DM will allow 2 PrCs at the same level, you could address Crusader's biggest limitation (low number of maneuvers readied/granted) without losing anything significant (I'd recommend Crusader 13/Master of Nine 5).

My DM says: "Prestige classes MAY be taken simultaneously. But each side must meet prerequisites independently pertaining to class derived requirements. Meaning if you take Monk on side A, and Fighter on Side B. Your Drunken master MUST be on the Monk side, since you need flurry of blows and evasion. No class crunching! You can't take the same class or PrC on two sides to maximize your class choices. I'm already being generous."

Honestly, the building is terrifying for me with all these options, even with a good character generator. And once it is done, I need to understand what it means for me to play her :). I would very much appreciate step by step with building her, mostly because I don't want to mess it up and cause problems in the game. I usually start level 1 characters and games usually fizzle long before I get any real levels of interest :( so I don't have a good grip on the high level stuff.



You will definitely want to pick up the Arcane Strike feat. Dump a level X spell for +X attack and +Xd4 damage all round long any time you need it, and it doesn't even cost an action.

Oh yeah, are flaws (Unearthed Arcana and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)) allowed?
I have asked, though with
*Double standard (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) feats. Bonus feats are not doubled.
Do I need to take a flaw for more? The only flaw I would consider really is "Frail" as we have max HP for all levels.

I have asked the DM though :)

DreamQuestin
2013-06-02, 01:35 AM
There was a thread that either died or was locked a few days ago (I wasn't paying attention after the first couple pages, but I'd bet locked). A general summary is that for some people it feels too much like magic, it's a new system people have to learn, it has a very <deleted for brevity> (PHB?) that refluffing's fine. You're welcome to rename maneuvers and stances IC, or even not refer to them at all.
[/QUOTE>
It doesn't seem overpowered to me (especially as I am building IMHO an Overpowered character for gestalt :) ) but new scares people, I guess.

[QUOTE=Jeff the Green;15352751]
That looks pretty good to me. I'd recommend picking up mostly buffing spells with a few good utility ones. Shapechange is the obvious, but may be overkill. Wands are your friend; with the double feats you can spare Quicken spell and Metamagic Spell Trigger feat to apply buffs as swift actions. Stick them in wand chambers. I'd also recommend picking up a runestaff, which will let you cast spells you don't know and/or aren't on your list.
Thank you for the tips! This character is going to be amazing and I have the kind folks here to thank for it :)

Thank you :)

DreamQuestin
2013-06-02, 01:36 AM
If you go the route of Sublime Chord, you might consider Extra Spell to be a useful feat, especially since you have so many. Grabbing extra spells from the Sorc/Wiz spell list is nothing to be scoffed at.

That is for sure! Thank you for the advice, it is solid!



For amusement sake, you could also get Obtain/Improved Familiar to get a Hippogryph for a mount. That will further confuse the issue and make everyone think you really are playing a Paladin.
LOL I really like that idea! Will have to sweet talk to my DM :)

DreamQuestin
2013-06-02, 01:38 AM
Also, familiars have half your HP. Normally this is lousy, but not so for crusaders, especially when a bunch of your maneuvers will let you heal him. Plus, since most maneuvers are standard actions, you don't have the standard problem for mounted combat of not being able to do full attacks.

So my mount could be my familiar too? Holy Hogwash batpig! ;) Now that is most interesting :)

Waker
2013-06-02, 02:06 AM
Though I generally do not care to aid too much in character creation, as it is a great deal of work, I will make a few specific suggestions. I'm sure other posters will make more detailed builds afterwards.

So the rolls I have for stats: 17, 16, 16, 16, 14, 13
*Whenever an ability score boost is gained (4, 8, 12, 16, 20) two (instead of one) abilities go up by 1.
My suggestion for stats are as follows. This includes the initial numbers as well as the result after race and leveling are applied. I simply added the last point to Wisdom simply because it was an odd number.
Str-16=16
Con-16 (-2 +4)=18
Dex-16 (+2)=18
Int-14=14
Wis-13 (+1)=14
Cha-17 (+5)=23

*Double standard (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) feats. Bonus feats are not doubled.
That is a lot of feats. Ok, some of the ones I suggested earlier will come into play. Battle Caster, Melodic Casting, Lingering Song, Dragonfire Inspiration, Extra Song, Adaptive Style, Extra Granted Maneuver, Song of the White Raven, Obtain Familiar, Improved Familiar (Hippogryph), Improved Initiative, Extra Spell (X/times).
Song of the Heart is one I brought up earlier. It is from the Eberron Campaign Setting, but seeing as how it has no mechanical or fluff aspects tied to the setting, you could try to wheedle your DM into allowing it. Not absolutely necessary, but it is a good feat.
If you decide to use a shield, Somatic Weaponry may come in handy to allow you to cast a spell in combat while still wielding a shield and weapon.

*Starting gold is: 530,000 . No epic items.
Ugh, I hate getting into the details of equipment. The only thing that I will suggest is that if you do grab Battle Caster, wear a suit of mithril full plate including whatever enchantments appeal to you. I am rather fond of the Called property, allowing you to don your armor when needed and walk about in normal clothes outside of combat. A light mithril shield may be a good investment since several maneuvers make use of one. Vest of Legends is also useful, giving you a boost to some skills and making your Bardic Music stronger. See also about grabbing a Crystal Echoblade and asking your DM to let your PrC levels count as Bard for the purposes of the Sonic Damage.
Putting Wand Sheathes in your weapon and shield is a good idea.

Douglas
2013-06-02, 02:11 AM
At the level of power and optimization we seem to be heading for, nothing short of either building your character around it or getting another character to be the mount will get your mount to be anything more than a glorified target and showpiece. Pretty much, either devote an entire side of the gestalt to it (and give up bard or crusader in exchange), or forget about it because it will die in a stiff breeze compared to what you can face. Unless Leadership is allowed and you get to build your cohort, in which case go nuts with a Master of Many Forms/War Shaper or something.

I'll try to put a build together tomorrow.

Kristinn
2013-06-02, 04:42 AM
You should really squeeze in two levels of Paladin of Freedom (necessitating a Chaotic Good alignment) to get the Charisma mod to all Saves. Your charisma mod is likely to be in the range of 7 or 8, which is a huge boost to saving throws.

dspeyer
2013-06-02, 02:57 PM
I'd recommend against *starting* in crusader. The first level of crusader gives 5 maneuvers known. If you're initiator level is 1, that means you get 5 level 1 maneuvers. They're not very powerful and you get very little choice. Something Else 4 / Crusader X is generally better. The most obvious choice for Something Else would be Paladin of Freedom, which packs its best class features into its first four levels anyway, and is cha-based. Another option is Duskblade, since Arcane Channeling isn't limited to Duskblade spells.

Douglas
2013-06-02, 03:11 PM
I'd recommend against *starting* in crusader. The first level of crusader gives 5 maneuvers known. If you're initiator level is 1, that means you get 5 level 1 maneuvers. They're not very powerful and you get very little choice. Something Else 4 / Crusader X is generally better.
That would get a better low level selection, but at the cost of losing 9th level maneuvers.


Another option is Duskblade, since Arcane Channeling isn't limited to Duskblade spells.
Arcane Channeling is not compatible with strike maneuvers.

Goby
2013-06-02, 05:55 PM
Ah! Thank you :). I will go read through the ToB. Wonder why so many DMs dislike that book so?

This build was on another thread, not as simple as I had asked, but with all the changes on one side of the equation and all related...maybe I can cope.

Do you agree with this combo?
Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8 // Crusader 20

(I will only be 18 so shy two virtuoso levels)

If you're going with an Elven Bard/Crusader build, and since you have the bonus feats to spare, I would look at the champion of Corellon Larethian PRC from Races of the Wild. Basically it's a heroic elven warrior, similar to a paladin, with class features that mix well with your Charisma and Dex. The flavor seems to fit with what you're looking for, and it gives some permanent abilities outside your Tome of Battle tricks. Healing, Dex to Damage, and especially if you already take Battle Caster to get that Mithral plate, you can increase your dex bonus and even get back to 30 ft. speed.

I would go Crusader 7 to qualify for Champion, and then take an even number of champion levels, how many depends on what higher stance & maneuvers you want.
Champion 4 / Crusader 6 / Champion 1: +1 AC, +10 ft, 8th level maneuver, 5th level stance
Champion 2 / Crusader 8 / Champion 1: +1 AC, 8th level maneuver, 8th level stance
Champion 2 / Crusader 9: 9th level maneuver, 8th level stance

Every 2 non-crusader levels gives you +1 initiator level for learning new, or replacing old, maneuvers known.

DreamQuestin
2013-06-02, 06:47 PM
If you go the route of Sublime Chord, you might consider Extra Spell to be a useful feat, especially since you have so many. Grabbing extra spells from the Sorc/Wiz spell list is nothing to be scoffed at.
For amusement sake, you could also get Obtain/Improved Familiar to get a Hippogryph for a mount. That will further confuse the issue and make everyone think you really are playing a Paladin.
I get to do one better ;). My DM is allowing me to have a Huge Griffon as mount/familiar ;). Hehe does that make me a Grey Warden? (Dragon Age reference)

LOL

Douglas
2013-06-02, 07:49 PM
I'm working on a full build right now, will post later tonight.

DreamQuestin
2013-06-02, 07:58 PM
Thank you for the assistance Goby :))


If you're going with an Elven Bard/Crusader build, and since you have the bonus feats to spare, I would look at the champion of Corellon Larethian PRC from Races of the Wild. Basically it's a heroic elven warrior, similar to a paladin, with class features that mix well with your Charisma and Dex. The flavor seems to fit with what you're looking for, and it gives some permanent abilities outside your Tome of Battle tricks. Healing, Dex to Damage, and especially if you already take Battle Caster to get that Mithral plate, you can increase your dex bonus and even get back to 30 ft. speed.

I would go Crusader 7 to qualify for Champion, and then take an even number of champion levels, how many depends on what higher stance & maneuvers you want.
Champion 4 / Crusader 6 / Champion 1: +1 AC, +10 ft, 8th level maneuver, 5th level stance
Champion 2 / Crusader 8 / Champion 1: +1 AC, 8th level maneuver, 8th level stance
Champion 2 / Crusader 9: 9th level maneuver, 8th level stance

Every 2 non-crusader levels gives you +1 initiator level for learning new, or replacing old, maneuvers known.

That does sound good! And I really like the flavour (having chosen Correllion Lathian as her deity already.

Still wrapping my brain around the maneuvers, but they seem to be very nice buffs!

Thank you again

DreamQuestin
2013-06-02, 08:01 PM
You should really squeeze in two levels of Paladin of Freedom (necessitating a Chaotic Good alignment) to get the Charisma mod to all Saves. Your charisma mod is likely to be in the range of 7 or 8, which is a huge boost to saving throws.

She is Chaotic Good anyways, so that wouldn't be an issue. I am not sure I liked the expected edicts though for that class of knight. I have no problem helping those in need and such, but it had something to say about not being able to help the cause of Law, which while isn't a priority, if the law is just she would do.

Thank you for the assistance, though. I will consider it.

DreamQuestin
2013-06-02, 08:04 PM
I'm working on a full build right now, will post later tonight.

That is really AWESOME of you, Douglas! Thank you very very much! :)

I hope I can return the favour some day. This really is above and beyond.

Jeff the Green
2013-06-02, 08:08 PM
She is Chaotic Good anyways, so that wouldn't be an issue. I am not sure I liked the expected edicts though for that class of knight. I have no problem helping those in need and such, but it had something to say about not being able to help the cause of Law, which while isn't a priority, if the law is just she would do.

Thank you for the assistance, though. I will consider it.

It's not all that restrictive:

A paladin of freedom must be of chaotic good alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin of freedom's code requires that he respect individual liberty, help those in need (provided they do not use the help for lawful or evil ends), and punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty.

So you could certainly follow, and even enforce, just laws, as long as they don't threaten or curtail personal liberty. Which just laws usually don't.

Waker
2013-06-02, 09:23 PM
One bit of advice for when you actually play the character, make up some flashcards with your maneuvers on them. Put your readied maneuvers in one pile, your expended maneuvers in another and your non-readied in a third. That will help you keep track of what moves you have available to use at any given time.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-02, 09:43 PM
One bit of advice for when you actually play the character, make up some flashcards with your maneuvers on them. Put your readied maneuvers in one pile, your expended maneuvers in another and your non-readied in a third. That will help you keep track of what moves you have available to use at any given time.

Yeah, this is super helpful. It's difficult to play a Crusader, especially at high level, without making cards.

Teal
2013-06-02, 11:44 PM
I'd personally be partial to a Bard 20//Marshal 1-2/Rogue 3-6/Legendary Leader 7-11/Dread Pirate 12-20 build. It's more of a roleplay centric build, pumping out buffs as much as possible, and with double feats you could easily pull off some rather interesting aura combinations, plus with a high Charisma rolled you're putting out some decent figures to all allies. It is, however, very limited in that it requires Leadership (which I don't believe you've said is allowed or not?) and multiple combat allies to really shine (since you, by yourself, aren't very combat focused, and are rather vulnerable, although you will probably have very good hiding skills via Bard casting.)

Since you have double prestige classing, you can also swap the Bard out for Inspire Courage-progressing prestige classes, however I'm not familiar with those. By end game, you can be adding +5d6 Fire damage (Dragonfire Inspiration feat) to all allies; I don't know for sure, but I believe there's feats or prestige classes that allow you to do two Bardic Musics at the same time (or effectively two at the same time, through prolonged lingering effects) which will allow you to do both versions of Inspire Courage (the regular and Dragonfire Inspiration versions.) Alternatively, you can swap the Dread Pirate prestige class levels onto the Bard side (to avoid any potential double dipping accusations) and add in Legendary Captain instead (more leadership score; it is, however, a heavily sea-based class.) Doing so would also make you lose out on Bard casting progression.

This would be a very support-focused build, with a backstory of being a sea-born king or equivalent, evidenced by a following of allies. For the most part, the class would work without Leadership, however losing Legendary Leader's auras would reduce the vision of inspiration incarnate.

Douglas
2013-06-03, 02:03 AM
Ok, here goes.

Ability score placement:
Strength and charisma are your top most important stats, followed by dex and con. Wis takes last place, leaving int in fifth.
Str 17 +4 levels
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 13
Cha 16 +4 levels

Bard side:
Level 1: Bard

This is here rather than with the rest to make best use of level 1 skill point multiplication.

Levels 2 and 3: Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures)

The chaotic good version of Paladin. You're going to have a nice high charisma score, and this will make good use of that by applying it to all saves. That's pretty much the whole reason for taking it in this build. The other class features you can write down, but you don't really need to pay attention to them.

Levels 4 - 7: Bard 2-5

More Bard. By the time you finish this, you need 4 ranks of Diplomacy, 4 of Intimidate, and 10 of Perform for prerequisites.

Levels 8-10: Virtuoso 1-3

This gets you to level 7 Bard casting, just enough to get 3rd level spells and qualify for Sublime Chord. Virtuoso also advances Inspire Courage, the only bard song you really care about, and gives some nifty other songs.

At this point, you need Knowledge (Arcana) 13, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, and Spellcraft 6.

Level 11: Sublime Chord

This supercharges your casting. You'll be at 8th level spells, with access to the sor/wiz list, thanks to this.

Levels 12-18: Virtuoso 4-10

Have these all advance Sublime Chord instead of Bard. The result is high Inspire Courage, great casting, and all the Virtuoso songs.

End result:
Spells per day and known as Bard 7 and Sublime Chord 8 (caster level 15 for each)
Inspire Courage as Bard 15 (so +3, but we'll adjust this later for more)
Bardic Music 15 times per day
Bardic Lore as Bard 6
Charisma to all saves
All Virtuoso songs

There are some miscellaneous other things, but they aren't important.

Crusader side:
Levels 1-13: Crusader

Aside from the maneuver stuff, which I'll go over in detail later, the important things here are:
20 points of delayed damage (which gives you +4 attack and damage when it's full)
1/day reroll a save with no action cost
Mettle

You need a bunch of feats here for prereqs, along with some skills.

Levels 14-18: Master of Nine

The really important part of why I'm recommending this is the extra maneuvers readied. Why this is so important will become apparent when I explain maneuvers.

Dual Stance, Counter Stance, and Mastery of Nine are also very good.

Skills:
14 int plus the special 2 from house rules means base +4 skill points. We're going to have at least 4 base at all levels, and 6 for most, so that's 8 to 10 skills worth.

You have important prerequisites in:
Spellcraft
Knowledge (Arcana)
Listen
Perform
Diplomacy
Intimidate
4 discipline key skills
Profession (Astrologer)
Concentration

Aside from the last two, where you only need 5 or 6 and more serves little purpose, you might as well max them out. Diplo and Intimidate can serve as two of the discipline skills, let's go with Tumble and Sense Motive for the other two (your other options are Hide, Balance, Jump, and Concentration - normally I'd take Concentration, but you'll be using Perform for everything you need it for thanks to Melodic Casting).

So, primary skills are: Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), Listen, Perform, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Tumble, Sense Motive.

Level by level:
Level 1: Bard is 6, so 10 maxed skills. All primary skills are in-class for either Bard or Crusader, so max them all at 4, and we have 8 points left. Dump 4 in Profession (Astrologer) to work towards that prereq, and 4 in Concentration for that one.

Level 2 and 3: Paladin only has 2, so Crusader's 4 is what we get. 8 points per level. Sadly, only Diplo, Intim, and Sense Motive of our main 8 are in-class for these levels. Spend 4 per level on those 3 plus Profession (Astrologer), bringing it to the 6 needed for the prereq. The other 4 points per level can keep 2 of the other skills at max.

Levels 4-7: Back to Bard with 6+4, and everything is in-class. 8 skills to push, 3 of them are 2 points behind. We have 2 spare skill points per level, 4 levels, 8 spare points, 3 * 2 = 6 needed to bring the falling-behind skills back up to max. All main skills are maxed again, the profession prereq is already met, and we have 2 points left over. 1 of those brings Concentration to the 5 needed for a prereq, the other can go wherever.

Levels 8-10: Virtuoso has 6 base just like Bard, but is missing Knowledge (Arcana) and Listen as class skills. It's also missing Sense Motive, but one of your Martial Study feats makes that permanently in-class regardless. 8 skills, 2 of them cross-class, takes 10 points per level to keep maxed, which is exactly what we have.

Level 11: Sublime Chord gets Knowledge and Listen in class, but drops Tumble in exchange. However, one of your Martial Study feats makes Tumble permanently a class skill regardless, so it doesn't matter. It also drops to 4 skill points, so net no change - we still have exactly enough to continue maxing things out.

Levels 12-13: Virtuoso//Crusader again, keep maxing the mains.

Levels 14-18: Virtuoso//Master of Nine. Skills-wise, this works out the same as Virtuoso//Crusader.

Net result: All 8 main skills are maxed at 21 ranks each. Profession (Astrologer) is at 6 ranks as needed for prereq, and Concentration is at 5 as needed for another prereq. You have 1 spare point to put in whatever random thing strikes your fancy. Class skill restrictions for that are from level 7.

Feats:
Unfortunately, Master of Nine requires a ton of feats, especially for a Crusader. Fortunately, you have a ton of feats.

Level 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Blind-Fight
Level 3: Adaptive Style, Dodge
Level 6: Improved Initiative, Martial Study (Counter Charge)
Level 9: Martial Study (Rapid Counter), Martial Study (Burning Blade)

Ok, that takes care of Master of Nine prereqs, and works towards prereqs for some excellent maneuvers later. You probably won't actually want to use the maneuvers gained by Martial Study here, but there aren't many options for maneuvers that don't require other maneuvers as prereqs.

I'll go into Adaptive Style and the maneuvers later, and the rest is core stuff you should be pretty familiar with.

Flaw (Frail): Dragontouched
Level 12: Song of the Heart, Melodic Casting
Level 15: Dragonfire Inspiration, Arcane Strike
Level 18: Extra Granted Maneuver, Somatic Weaponry

From here, we have:
Inspire Courage gets an extra +1
Spellcasting doesn't interrupt Inspire Courage
Inspire Courage can give +Xd6 fire damage instead of +X attack and damage. If you have time, you can spend two rounds getting both effects up.
Any time, drop a level X spell as a free action for +X attack and +Xd4 damage on all attacks for a round.
Your maneuvers refresh faster.
Having your hands full (with a weapon and shield) doesn't interfere with somatic spellcasting components.

Spells known:
Bard casting:
Level 0: You get 6. Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, and Light are hard to beat for utility. For the other 3, I'd go with Dancing Lights, Mage Hand, and Summon Instrument.

Level 1: You get 4. Inspirational Boost and Improvisation are excellent, take them. If you expect to be leading large armies at any point, Amplify could let your Inspire Courage and/or Dragonfire Inspiration reach more people. There are several good options for the remaining 1 or 2.

Level 2: You get 4. Bladeweave is incredible for gishes. Glitterdust is spectacular, as always. The rest I will leave to you.

Level 3: Only 2 for this. Wounding Whispers is a great defense, and Haste is a superb buff for the whole party. There are several other good choices, but that's what I'd go with.

Sublime Chord casting:
At this point, the sor/wiz list opens up in addition to the bard list.

Level 4: You get 4. Ruin Delver's Fortune and Sirine's Grace are top choices. Dimensional Anchor will prevent teleport-capable foes from fleeing, which is very likely to be relevant with demons and devils typically having at-will Greater Teleport. There are quite a few other good choices at this level, especially with access to both Bard and Sor/Wiz lists.

Level 5: You get 4. Greater Dispel Magic is important utility against spellcasting foes, and Bards get it a level lower than everyone else. Dragonsight gives some excellent perception abilities, and you can cast it in the morning to last all day. Greater Blink is a very powerful defensive buff, and can let you walk through walls. Wall of Stone can be a very versatile battlefield shaping/control spell.

Level 6: You get 4. Bards get Irresistible Dance at this level, which is great when your spell slots go up to sor/wiz heights. If detective-style investigative work is ever relevant, Hindsight is crazily good at that. Disintegrate has a lot of barrier removal potential (and I'd save it primarily for that, it's not so good as a damaging attack). In the same vein as Dimensional Anchor, Greater Anticipate Teleportation makes teleport-based ambushes suicidal against you (cast it in the morning, it lasts all day). Freezing Fog is a frankly ridiculous area disable spell unless your opponents have Freedom of Movement. Sadly, that makes 5 so you'll have to pick 1 to drop.

Level 7: You get 3. There are no Bard spells from this point on, so Sor/Wiz only. Elemental Body. Cast it in the morning, pick air, and enjoy your various immunities and perfect fly speed all day long. Spell Turning is superb anti-caster defense, and lasts a good 2 and a half hours at your level. Greater Teleport gives you ultimate long range mobility.

Level 8: You get 2. Greater Plane Shift, in case you have any extraplanar travel needs. There are a few good choices here, but I'd recommend Moment of Prescience - good for an "oh ****" situation, and doesn't take an in-combat action. I'd avoid Mind Blank, because its immunity applies to your Bardic Music buffs too.

Maneuvers:
First, a general explanation of how things work. You have a grand total of 22 maneuvers known - 11 from Crusader, 8 from Master of Nine, and 3 from Martial Study feats. 11 of those can be "readied" at any given time.

You also have 5 stances known. You can only use one stance at a time, but you can keep it active indefinitely for free, and you can switch which one is active as a swift action. Handling maneuvers is a bit more complicated.

Go here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a), download the relevant documents, print out the pages with your maneuvers on them, and cut them up to make maneuver cards. Select your 11, and make a miniature deck out of them.

At the start of combat, shuffle and draw 9 maneuvers from your deck (leaving only 2 not drawn). These maneuvers are your "granted" ones, which are available for use. When you use a maneuver, put it in a discard pile of "expended" maneuvers.

At the end of your turn, draw one new maneuver from the deck. This maneuver is now granted along with any remaining in your hand. If you can't draw a new maneuver because the deck is empty, shuffle all 11 cards together again, both granted and expended, and draw a new set of 9. Continue this cycle until combat ends.

If at any time you decide you really need a maneuver you didn't ready, your Adaptive Style feat allows you to spend a full round action to re-choose the set of 11 readied maneuvers. When you do this, treat it like the beginning of combat - shuffle them all and draw 9.

For learning maneuvers, in addition to the levels when you get new maneuvers known there is a swap mechanic at even-numbered Crusader levels. The swap is explicitly allowed to upgrade to higher level maneuvers, unlike the Sorcerer or Bard spell known swap, so it's important to track even when starting at high level. You can also select lower level maneuvers in place of higher level ones any time you want, and this is sometimes desirable to get something of a different nature than what's available at the highest level. Most maneuvers require that you already know a certain number of maneuvers from the same discipline, and this may also force you to learn lower level maneuvers in order to increase your prerequisite count.

I'm filling this out by starting with the highest level maneuvers I really want, then going down a chain of maneuvers with progressively lower prerequisite counts in the same discipline.

Diamond Mind:
Time Stands Still. Because who doesn't like full attacking twice in the same round? Level 9, prereq count 4.
Stance of Alacrity. Swift and immediate actions are precious for ToB characters, and you have a few swift or immediate spells competing for them too. This effectively gives you an extra one, usable only for counters. Level 8 stance, prereq count 3.
Quicksilver Motion. You are somewhat reliant on full attacks for best effect. This lets you move and still do that. Level 7, prereq count 3
Pearl of Black Doubt. Stance, +2 AC every time someone misses you, resets 1/round, here primarily for prereqs. Level 3, prereq count 1.
Diamond Defense. +18 to any save at no notice. Level 8, no prereq.
Rapid Counter. The best no-prereq maneuver I could find in this discipline at a level low enough for when you take Martial Study.

Setting Sun:
Fool's Strike. Negating an attack? Good. Hitting the attacker at the same time? Great. Getting to say "stop hitting yourself"? Priceless. Level 8, prereq count 3.
Mirrored Pursuit. Try to run away? You follow, even when it's not your turn. Level 5, prereq count 2.
Feigned Opening. Can make AoOs less bad, but here primarily for prereqs. Level 3, prereq count 1.
Counter Charge. Someone's charging you? Not any more. Level 1, no prereq.

Desert Wind:
Flashing Sun. Flurry-like attack with any weapon, and you get to add Mastery of Nine bonuses. For use when Time Stands Still is either not granted yet or already expended. Level 2, prereq count 1.
Burning Blade. 1d6+18 fire damage on all attacks for 1 round. With a hasted Time Stands Still, that can seriously add up, but unfortunately is severely reduced by fire resistance. Level 1, no prereq.

Devoted Spirit:
Strike of Righteous Vitality. Attack and get a Heal spell at the same time. Level 9, prereq count 3.
Shield Counter. Shield bash someone to cancel their attack. Level 7, prereq count 2.
Thicket of Blades. Stance, 5' steps don't work against you any more. Level 3, prereq count 1.
Martial Spirit. Stance, every time you hit you heal someone within 30' (possibly yourself, if you want) for 2. Level 1, no prereq.

White Raven:
Order Forged From Chaos. You spend a move action, and the whole party (yourself included) gets to move. Level 6, prereq count 2.
Covering Strike. A boost despite the name, anything you hit in the round you use it can't make AoOs for 3 rounds. Level 4, prereq count 1.
White Raven Tactics. Swift action, set an ally's initiative to 1 less than yours, letting them act immediately after you. Level 3, prereq count 1.
Leading the Charge. Stance, all allies within 60' get +18 damage on charge attacks. Level 1, no prereq.

Stone Dragon:
You need something from this to qualify for Master of Nine, but it's not particularly important what. The discipline as a whole is lackluster and handicapped by not being usable while flying.

By level gained:
Level 1: Swap, Swap, Swap, Swap, Swap, Martial Spirit
Level 2: <pick something> Leading the Charge
Level 3: <pick something>
Level 4: <pick something>
Level 5: White Raven Tactics
Level 6: (Counter Charge), <pick something>
Level 7: Covering Strike
Level 8: Thicket of Blades
Level 9: (Rapid Counter), (Burning Blade), <pick something>
Level 10: <pick something>
Level 11: <pick something>
Level 12: Order Forged From Chaos
Level 13: Shield Counter
Level 14: Flashing Sun, Feigned Opening
Level 15: Diamond Defense, Pearl of Black Doubt
Level 16: Quicksilver Motion, Mirrored Pursuit
Level 17: Stance of Alacrity, Fool's Strike
Level 18: Time Stands Still, Strike of Righteous Vitality

Stances:
Stance of Alacrity, Pearl of Black Doubt, Martial Spirit, Thicket of Blades, Leading the Charge

I recommend readying: White Raven Tactics, Burning Blade, Order Forged From Chaos, Shield Counter, Flashing Sun, Diamond Defense, Quicksilver Motion, Mirrored Pursuit, Fool's Strike, Time Stands Still, and Strike of Righteous Vitality.

Note: Without Master of Nine, that list would be half as long and would be much less flexible, being constrained to only the 3 Crusader disciplines.

If you know you'll be fighting highly fire resistant enemies, replace Burning Blade with Counter Charge.

You will usually want to be using Stance of Alacrity.

Major Equipment:
Vest of Legends (DMG2)
Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium)
Belt of Magnificence (Miniature's Handbook) +6. You benefit from enough ability scores that you might as well.
+5 Soulfire (Book of Exalted Deeds) Nimble (Magic Item Compendium) Mithril Breastplate
+5 large shield
One-handed magic weapon of choice.
Ring of Evasion
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Amulet of Natural Armor
Vest of Resistance
Banner of the Storm's Eye (Magic Item Compendium)

Ring of Protection is of debatable value - it's superseded by Sirine's Grace, but you may not always have time to cast that. In any case, you'd have to combine it with one of the other rings.

I'm sure there's plenty of other stuff, but that plus your spells handles most of the basics I think.

One nifty combo it has goes like this: swift action to use Quicksilver Motion. This gives you a bonus move action. Use that to use Order Forged From Chaos to move the entire party (including you) into flanking position. Now everyone gets to full attack on their turns without needing to spend movement getting in position first - except you, who gets to full attack twice with Time Stands Still. Oh, and all of those 8 attacks (10 if you have Haste up) get +8 attack and +8d4 damage from spending an 8th level slot on Arcane Strike and +2 attack and +5 damage from Mastery of Nine.

The Vest of Legends boosts your effective Bard level for Inspire Courage to 20, making it +4. Song of the Heart bumps that to +5. Cast Inspirational Boost before-hand and it's +6. Activate your Badge of Valor immediately after too, and it's +7.

You have both evasion and mettle, along with high saves thanks to Divine Grace applying your +8 charisma bonus. You can boost them further by casting Ruin Delver's Fortune to apply that +8 again as a luck bonus, and if you're really worried you can use Diamond Defense to add +18 on top. Pretty much, if it allows a save you will pass - and if you pass, you ignore it entirely even if it normally still has a reduced effect on a save.

And I need to go to bed soon. I'll be back on tomorrow evening to answer questions and explain the rest of the build's highlights, if other people don't beat me to it.

Feint's End
2013-06-03, 03:54 AM
That is a lot of feats. Ok, some of the ones I suggested earlier will come into play. Battle Caster, Melodic Casting, Lingering Song, Dragonfire Inspiration, Extra Song, Adaptive Style, Extra Granted Maneuver, Song of the White Raven, Obtain Familiar, Improved Familiar (Hippogryph), Improved Initiative, Extra Spell (X/times).
Song of the Heart is one I brought up earlier.


Hmm you really missed some of the best feats for bards there.

Since you got so much feats I heavily recommend taking not only Dragonfire Inspiration (That itself is a pretty awesome buff ... still it's fire damage and that won't help you at Level 18) but take Dragontouched (or one level as sorceror) and Draconic Heritage (Amethyst)
Now your Dragonfire Inspiration deals Force damage instead of fire ... Pretty awesome right? Yes ... now we need more inspire courage.

At Level 18 (depending on how high your Level for inspire courage is) you either have +2 or +3. +3 would be great but you can work with +2 too.

Another feat comes into play now. Words of Creation. For taking 3d4 damage you double the bonus of inspire courage. Now we just need more inspire courage right?

Take Song of the Heart (as mentioned) and buff yourself with Inspirational boost before you start the music. Now you have +4 (or +5) inspire courage which gets doubled to +8 (or +10)

Now add Dragonfire Inspiration and you got 8d6 force damage on every attack for you and all allies (they gonna love you) ... go to town.

Anyways you really should take Words of Creation just because it's too awesome to pass by on any bard (even without the whole dragonfire thing). Hope I could help.

Emperor Tippy
2013-06-03, 04:31 AM
Hatchling Phaerimm (Lost Empires of FR page 188, +2 LA and no racial HD) casts as a Sorcerer equal to your character level (and casts its spells as spell like abilities)

Monk 1 with Ascetic Mage (Cha to AC)
Paladin 2 (Cha to Saves)
Favored Soul 13

//
Wilder 5/ Thrallhead 10/Wilder 3

---
You cast as a level 18 Sorcerer (cast as SLA's as well), a 13th level Favored Soul (6th level divine casting), manifest as a 17th level Wilder, gains Cha to AC, and gains Cha to saves.

All of it is based on Cha

DreamQuestin
2013-06-03, 08:35 PM
Greetings Emperor Tippy!

Thank you for your assistance, I am learning leaps and bounds with this lol


Hatchling Phaerimm (Lost Empires of FR page 188, +2 LA and no racial HD) casts as a Sorcerer equal to your character level (and casts its spells as spell like abilities)
---
You cast as a level 18 Sorcerer (cast as SLA's as well), a 13th level Favored Soul (6th level divine casting), manifest as a 17th level Wilder, gains Cha to AC, and gains Cha to saves.

All of it is based on Cha

That is pretty wild indeed! It is definitely on my list of must play :) next time

DreamQuestin
2013-06-03, 08:37 PM
Greetings Feint's End!

Thank you very kindly for taking the time to help me out :)! I do appreciate the assistance.


Hmm you really missed some of the best feats for bards there.

<great stuff deleted for brevity>

Another feat comes into play now. Words of Creation. For taking 3d4 damage you double the bonus of inspire courage. Now we just need more inspire courage right?

Anyways you really should take Words of Creation just because it's too awesome to pass by on any bard (even without the whole dragonfire thing). Hope I could help.

Some great advice there, I will certainly read them over and consider adding them!

DreamQuestin
2013-06-03, 08:44 PM
douglas, I really don't know what to say! Wow seems insufficient! This gal will kick some evil butt!

Thank you so very much. I will be spending time tonight getting this into a character sheet :)

Wow...thank you again...