question for urpriest

[Vellus]

My friend and I are looking up dragons and we aren't quite understanding where all these gigantic ability score bonuses are coming from. Could you help?

[Flickerdart]

My friend and I are looking up dragons and we aren't quite understanding where all these gigantic ability score bonuses are coming from. Could you help?
They're coming from being a dragon. As dragons advance age categories, they gain increases to all of their ability scores (except Dexterity, usually). They don't get these from gaining size categories or from extra HD, or from feats, or anything. They get them from being older dragons.

[Emperor Tippy]

My friend and I are looking up dragons and we aren't quite understanding where all these gigantic ability score bonuses are coming from. Could you help?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases

That is where a lot of it comes from. Remember that monsters get +1 attribute point per 4 HD as well, so in the case of a Great Wyrm Red that is +10.

But most of it just comes from being dragons, they get much more powerful as they age.

[Vellus]

So, do they still get size modifiers to their abilities in addition to just being older dragons?

[Flickerdart]

So, do they still get size modifiers to their abilities in addition to just being older dragons?
The numbers listed in the entries for each age category are the totals. How much of each bonus is what isn't really important.

[Vellus]

We just checked the size increase table and it doesn't fit. A gold wyrmling (medium size) thatbecomes a very young dragon its str goes up only by 4 but size increase from med-large according to the table should be an increase of 8.

[ddude987]

The numbers listed in the entries for each age category are the totals. How much of each bonus is what isn't really important.

were trying to make a homebrew and the racial ability is a rage that grants the medium sized creature a bonus to ability scores based on what a dragon of the same hd would get

[Flickerdart]

were trying to make a homebrew and the racial ability is a rage that grants the medium sized creature a bonus to ability scores based on what a dragon of the same hd would get
So like Bear Warrior except Dragon Warrior? Considering that dragons tend to have tons of HD for their CR, even if there were standard bonuses (which there are not) the numbers are not all that impressive. I'd recommend settling on set values rather than scaling them by an arbitrary metric like the stats of some dragon.

[ddude987]

So like Bear Warrior except Dragon Warrior? Considering that dragons tend to have tons of HD for their CR, even if there were standard bonuses (which there are not) the numbers are not all that impressive. I'd recommend settling on set values rather than scaling them by an arbitrary metric like the stats of some dragon.

We were going to have the rage bonuses scale based on her hit dice.

[KillianHawkeye]

What's this thead have to do with the Urpriest class? :smallconfused:

[Invader]

What's this thead have to do with the Urpriest class? :smallconfused:

I would imagine it was directed at Urpriest here in the forums as he is the go to guy for questions about monsters.

[KillianHawkeye]

I would imagine it was directed at Urpriest here in the forums as he is the go to guy for questions about monsters.

Then it should be a PM instead of a poorly-named thread. :smallannoyed:

[Malak'ai]

What's this thead have to do with the Urpriest class? :smallconfused:

I'm thinking they wanted Ur-Priest the Person to answer them, though I couldbe wrong.

Swordsage'd :smallfrown:.

@OP: Summon Ur-Priest is a 9th level spell with maerial componants to horrible to be mentioned in polite company.
And I don't know how you managed it, but you were somehow able to cast Summon Tippy which is an Epic spell wth a huge Spellcraft DC :smallwink:

[Invader]

Then it should be a PM instead of a poorly-named thread. :smallannoyed:

Question for Urpriest =/= question about Urpriest. I assumed that it was directed at the person from the title. And perhaps he wanted other playgrounders opinions as well but respects his opinion and specifically wanted to know what he thought? :smallamused:

[KillianHawkeye]

perhaps he wanted other playgrounders opinions as well but respects his opinion and specifically wanted to know what he thought? :smallamused:

There's no indication of that in the OP, and (as mentioned) the thread's title is quite inadequate for that purpose. The title should at least make some passing mention of the SUBJECT of a thread in order to avoid precisely this type of confusion.

[Xervous]

And I don't know how you managed it, but you were somehow able to cast Summon Tippy which is an Epic spell wth a huge Spellcraft DC :smallwink:

Also, that spell is best not cast, as it dramatically increases entropy in the multiverse as even some of the RAW gets put on holiday for a bit.


Though why don't you just refluff bear warrior as dragon warrior? Remove the dexterity gain if you want it to feel more dragon-like. Bears get bite-claw-claw, which is the standard dragon attack routine up until they get wings.

[Urpriest]

For the OP:

First, there's a way to send private messages, and all you need is the poster's name! It should be accessible via the User Control Panel in the top-right corner.

Second, there are two answers to your question, a simple answer and a complicated answer:

The simple answer is, that's what their race gets! Those Dragons are a particular monster, and those monsters have those ability score bonuses. Asking why Dragons have such high ability scores is a bit like asking why Elves have such low ones: it's just how the creature is built!

The more complicated answer comes when, like Tippy tried earlier, you want to justify the scores in terms of other things. Tippy suggested that you look at the size increase tables and ability score increases for every 4HD. This only sort of works. Those bonuses are only supposed to apply when a creature advances in Racial Hit Dice. (By the way, as I mention in my handbook, monsters don't get the +1 per four levels ability bonuses for old hit dice, only for new ones, since they're already included in their ability scores and there's no way to disentangle them).

The thing is, Dragons don't advance (much) by RHD. A Gold Wyrmling can indeed advance from 8HD to 10HD. It can't increase any farther, however. The 11HD Gold Dragon is an entirely different creature, the Very Young Gold Dragon, with its own completely unrelated ability adjustments. Were it not for the rules in Draconomicon, we wouldn't even know if the Dragon retained class levels when it advanced in age category. It's simply a different race, with the gapless advancement between the highest HD of one age and the lowest of the next masking that fact.

As for making a "Dragon Warrior" like Bear Warrior...I agree that you should focus on making a balanced set of bonuses, rather than basing them on any particular monster. The only reason things like Bear Warrior and Primeval (and to a lesser extent Lycanthrope) can get away with adding to ability scores like that is because animals are intentionally kept under a comparative level of balance and consistency since they are all potential Wild Shape forms. Dragons don't have the same strictness to their design, so you could get a lot of corner cases if you opened things up indiscriminately to them.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Seems like the Epic Seed of Summoning Ur-Priest has succeeded.

On to phase 2...

[Larkas]

There's a lot of epicness going on in these boards lately. I suspect that some sort of apocalypse might be coming. :smalleek:

On topic, you could base it on some dragons, I suppose, but not on true dragons. These guys' stats are all over the place!

[Fyermind]

Stat modifiers progress at roughly +2 str, +2 con +3 NA and +2 to mental ability scores every other level. Some dragons are particularly buff and get larger bonuses to their physical ability scores or faster increases in mental ability scores.

As for what these "come from" they are all racial bonuses. They scale with HD because the dragon becomes a "new" monster when it grows to the next age category.

If you want to make something scale with HD like a dragon, I'd consider having the rage increase Strength and constitution by +2 / three levels, and +1 NA per three levels (offset from other bonuses) I then give abilities based off frightful presence, maybe spell resistance, and flurries of attacks.

Precisely, I'd build it as:
D12 HD, 4+int skill points, good fort save, prerequisites designed to be entered after six levels of barbarian.
1) Rage of the Dragon (+1 NA while raging), +1 rage/day
2) Rage of the Dragon (+2 STR +2 CON while raging stacking), +2 dodge VS Dragons
3) Rage of the Dragon (Frightful Presence while raging), immunity to frightful presence of dragons
4) Rage of the Dragon (+1 NA while raging stacking, 1d6 bite while raging), +1 rage/day
5) Rage of the Dragon (+2 Str, +2 con while raging stacking), DR 2/- (stacks with existing DR)
6) Rage of the Dragon (SR Con bonus + class level), evasion vs. breath weapons
7) Rage of the Dragon (+1 NA while raging stacking), +1 rage/day, Penalty for using bite as secondary attack removed
8) Rage of the Dragon (+2 Str, +2 con while raging stacking), DR 4/- (upgrade to existing stacking DR)
9) Dragon's Fury (When raging may make one extra attack at full BAB)
10) Rage of the Dragon (+1 NA while raging stacking, once per rage as a full round action make two full attacks)

[Vellus]

Apologies for confusion, KillianHawkeye. I could have made it quite a bit more clear what I was after! As was stated earlier, I was informed that Urpriest(the user) is a very reliable source when it comes to monsters. I was also interested in seeing if any other playgrounder could offer insight, as you never know what might crop up!

That said, there seems to be another confusion I could clear up (though the answers I've received so far have indeed been quite helpful!) - the homebrew in question was to build a new race that would follow true dragon progression, but be always-medium sized. I was wondering if size bonuses and such could be calculated, to see what I would have to exclude.

Urpriest's answer helped clear up why the differences in dragon age category stats don't seem to follow a coherent progression - they don't! They simply are different bonuses because it's, mechanically anyway, a different 'race.' Thanks!

Apologies again for confusing wording on my part.

[Urpriest]

Apologies for confusion, KillianHawkeye. I could have made it quite a bit more clear what I was after! As was stated earlier, I was informed that Urpriest(the user) is a very reliable source when it comes to monsters. I was also interested in seeing if any other playgrounder could offer insight, as you never know what might crop up!

That said, there seems to be another confusion I could clear up (though the answers I've received so far have indeed been quite helpful!) - the homebrew in question was to build a new race that would follow true dragon progression, but be always-medium sized. I was wondering if size bonuses and such could be calculated, to see what I would have to exclude.

Urpriest's answer helped clear up why the differences in dragon age category stats don't seem to follow a coherent progression - they don't! They simply are different bonuses because it's, mechanically anyway, a different 'race.' Thanks!

Apologies again for confusing wording on my part.

In terms of brewing up a True Dragon that's always Medium, take a look at the Steel Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) for inspiration. They don't just stay one size, but they're a much more restricted set of sizes than most True Dragons.