vow of poverty and tomes

[geekintheground]

if i take vow of poverty, could i use a tome of clear thought (or any of the tomes/manuals) to increase my ability score?

[Flickerdart]

if i take vow of poverty, could i use a tome of clear thought (or any of the tomes/manuals) to increase my ability score?
Using a magic item is not allowed by the Vow, even if it's a consumable.

[Gavinfoxx]

Sidenote, you really really really really really don't generally want to take Vow of Poverty (it's a feat that dramatically nerfs your character), unless you are perhaps a class that doesn't need items, like Druid or if you are using the Easy Bake Wizard build, or perhaps if you are a Totemist. You certainly don't want to take it if you are an item dependent class like Monk. You might possibly want to take it if your DM ignores the wealth by level guidelines (which are really closer to rules in how important they are) and never gives you any value in items whatsoever.

[ArcturusV]

Of course, if you took your vow AFTER you read your Tome of Clear Thought, you're fine.

[geekintheground]

thanks guys. is there a non-magical way to increase ability scores for those who did take the vow?

[Flickerdart]

thanks guys. is there a non-magical way to increase ability scores for those who did take the vow?
Not really, but nothing is stopping you from having magic cast on you. Find some genies and wish up better ability scores.

[questionmark693]

Somebody else could use Wish on you, I believe that's ok.

[Emperor Tippy]

Have someone else Wish for you. If they use Ring's of Three Wishes the market price is only 5,250 GP more for +5 from the Ring.

[KillianHawkeye]

thanks guys. is there a non-magical way to increase ability scores for those who did take the vow?

Yeah. Gaining levels in multiples of 4 should do the trick, albeit slowly. Totally non-magical.

[Talya]

Using a magic item is not allowed by the Vow, even if it's a consumable.


This is not necessarily true (see the note on potions and similar items.) There's some gray areas there.



Of course, even if the DM rules in your favor, good luck finding someone to just give you a tome for immediate reading.

[geekintheground]

thanks guys, youve given me some thinking to do :)

[Deophaun]

It should be noted that under the Vow of Poverty, you can't even read (use) a non-magical tome. And let's not get into opening doors...

[Talya]

It should be noted that under the Vow of Poverty, you can't even read (use) a non-magical tome. And let's not get into opening doors...

Again, VoP has a specific exemption for expendible items given to you for immediate use (with potions used as an example). So it will be up to individual DMs...

[Deophaun]

Again, VoP has a specific exemption for expendible items given to you for immediate use (with potions used as an example). So it will be up to individual DMs...
But no exception for door handles or toilet paper (unless it's magic toilet paper, in which case, maybe).

Edit: Plus I believe the potion example is of another character giving you a potion (as in, you're in negative hit points, and they're force feeding it to you). Seeing as you can't be given a scroll of cure serious wounds and allowed to cast it on yourself (or anyone else), it seems that was the intent of the passage.

[Talya]

Hmm. Prestidigitation-enhanced toilet paper could be very convenient.

[KillianHawkeye]

Hmm. Prestidigitation-enhanced toilet paper could be very convenient.

But if you have prestidigitation, you don't even NEED toilet paper!

[Talya]

But if you have prestidigitation, you don't even NEED toilet paper!

The paper is for non-casters.

[Flickerdart]

This is not necessarily true (see the note on potions and similar items.) There's some gray areas there.



Of course, even if the DM rules in your favor, good luck finding someone to just give you a tome for immediate reading.
You can't "immediately" read a Tome. It takes a long time.

[GreenSerpent]

You can't "immediately" read a Tome. It takes a long time.

Have a very small tome made.

[Deophaun]

Have a very small tome made.
Naw, that won't do it. You need the CliffsNotes version.

[ShriekingDrake]

It should be noted that under the Vow of Poverty, you can't even read (use) a non-magical tome. And let's not get into opening doors...

I think Talya is correct (as usual) that there is ambiguity here (once again necessitating the admonition that play with this book is for mature players).

The text says: "You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf—you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion’s ebony fly. You may not, however, “borrow” a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand, or staff."

While I think that it's unlikely that someone would permit you to read his or her tome, the RAW make this a decision for the DM.

[Talya]

You can still do it immediately, just not instantly (they mean different things). You just start reading the moment it's given to you and don't put it down.

Potions aren't quaffed instantly either. A few seconds, a few minutes, a few hours. It's all the same thing.

[Deophaun]

I think Talya is correct (as usual) that there is ambiguity here (once again necessitating the admonition that play with this book is for mature players).
Where is the ambiguity here? Why are you quoting the text for magic items when I mention mundane tomes and regular doors?

[Phelix-Mu]

The pertinent issue about wishes, regardless of the method of acquiring them is "can the equivalent of money be invested in permanent, non-material enhancements to the body of someone with VoP?"

The debate is likely to break down as follows:

1.) Wealth is wealth, regardless of how it's spent or where the benefit from it's investment ends up manifesting. The VoP character gave up wealth, and thus gave up any ability to benefit from it in any way ever. This is kind of an extreme interpretation of the intent of the vow, but taken to it's logical conclusion, the character can't even receive buffs from friends for free, since spells cast on the character can be assigned value as per the PHB. One might beg for buffs, but some DMs might prefer that the line not exist, and just ban any improvements at all.

Such DMs would do well to improve VoP to make it relevant, and might start by offering more and more relevant/powerful Exalted Feats, and scaling up the resistance bonus to saves, among other things.

2.) Boons granted by friends that don't involve possession of items and the like are fine, even if they are permanent and might otherwise have value. Such a ruling would allow wishes, and might even allow permanent spells to be placed on the VoP character. Taken to it's extreme, this gets dangerously close to abusing the intent of VoP, as things like Craft Contingent Spell, psionic/magical tattoos, and perhaps even grafts don't technically involve items. Such things probably aren't within the spirit of the vow, but, then again, even substantial exploitation of these "items" is unlikely to make such a character unbalanced.

[Talya]

(snip)... but taken to it's logical conclusion, the character can't even (...snip...) Taken to it's extreme, this gets dangerously close to abusing the intent of (...snip)


Yes, see... this underscores something everyone would do well to remember.

Reductio ad absurdum is a legitimate tactic in philosophical debate, but when used in D&D, breaks everything. Don't take anything to its logical extremes.

Vow of Poverty was supposed to allow a character to play an ascetic type without sacrificing too much (if any) power. They are supposed to be as effective as a character without VOP.

Of course, we all know it didn't work. Rather than focusing on interpretation of ambiguous wording and the spirit/intent of the flaw, perhaps just consider that even if it were outright stated that characters with VOP could use tomes without violating their oath, they'd still suck. For VOP to work the DM has to work with the player taking it to ensure they are rewarded in ways that are useful to them despite their lack of ability to use gear, and that they continue to be as or nearly as effective as they would be if they had not taken those feats. This can be rather difficult.

[Phelix-Mu]

Y For VOP to work the DM has to work with the player taking it to ensure they are rewarded in ways that are useful to them despite their lack of ability to use gear, and that they continue to be as or nearly as effective as they would be if they had not taken those feats. This can be rather difficult.

Indeed, I could not agree more. I find all the talk of "you can't touch x" or "but he caught that arrow, now he loses VoP" to be nonsense. It's essentially a feat that has built in role play requirement and DM adjudication (not unlike Leadership), and people that try to hold it up to some kind of litmus test for x or y eventuality are missing the point of the feat (to encourage a manner of play that rewards an inherently role play heavy player choice, foregoing and donating WBL to npcs or whomever). If it was the DM's intent to screw the player on the first bit of RAW violation ever, then this probably isn't the campaign in which the player should be looking to borrow from BoED.

I was merely trying to demonstrate that there are generally two positions on the matter, and while each is at some points a sensible position, each position can also become absurd if there is too much rules lawyer about it or being silly about interpretations.

Again, Talya, your position on the matter is more or less as mine. If there was a tome, and the VoP character wanted to use it, just have it "belong" to another character and have the VoP character read it. It's not a huge deal to not make a distinction between the tome and the wishes if one is going to allow the wishes.

[Gavinfoxx]

Personally, I prefer this vow of poverty fix:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4030.0

[questionmark693]

That looks like a really nice fix :) *bookmarked*

[Telonius]

thanks guys. is there a non-magical way to increase ability scores for those who did take the vow?

Certain PrC's will increase ability scores. Dragon Disciple comes to mind; the Racial Paragon classes would work as well.

[ArcturusV]

Course there's also Template stacking once you take the Vow. Nothing stopping a guy who's taken a Vow of Poverty from becoming a Saint, for example. In fact it'd make darned good sense. Similarly throwing out stuff like Ghoul templates and such that you can gain during play.

[ShriekingDrake]

Where is the ambiguity here?
Res ipsa loquitur. In the end, its OK if you don't see ambiguity here; I do.


Why are you quoting the text for magic items when I mention mundane tomes and regular doors?
By all means, contemplate mundane items all you like. It's worth pursuing. You could even start a thread about it. I thought this thread, however, was focused on magical tomes, which was why I quoted from that section of BoED. But, again, I think this book is for mature players, which means that it provokes confusion and counts on the maturity of the players to introduce its mechanics into the game. Hence, there are lots of disagreements about the content, along a variety of fronts.



Indeed, I could not agree more. I find all the talk of "you can't touch x" or "but he caught that arrow, now he loses VoP" to be nonsense. It's essentially a feat that has built in role play requirement and DM adjudication (not unlike Leadership), and people that try to hold it up to some kind of litmus test for x or y eventuality are missing the point of the feat (to encourage a manner of play that rewards an inherently role play heavy player choice, foregoing and donating WBL to npcs or whomever). If it was the DM's intent to screw the player on the first bit of RAW violation ever, then this probably isn't the campaign in which the player should be looking to borrow from BoED.

. . .

Again, Talya, your position on the matter is more or less as mine. If there was a tome, and the VoP character wanted to use it, just have it "belong" to another character and have the VoP character read it. It's not a huge deal to not make a distinction between the tome and the wishes if one is going to allow the wishes.

Well said.