Knight vs Warblade

[PolloMark]

I'm in a campaign now where I am trying to make a non-magic character. I've been looking at the Knight and the Warblade (along with Totemist), and have trouble determining which class is better. By reading the handbooks posted on here, it seems that the Knight is better for defense (Test of Mettle, etc) and the Warblade (Maneuvers) is better for offense. Between the classes, is one really better than the other?

[SSGoW]

I'm in a campaign now where I am trying to make a non-magic character. I've been looking at the Knight and the Warblade (along with Totemist), and have trouble determining which class is better. By reading the handbooks posted on here, it seems that the Knight is better for defense (Test of Mettle, etc) and the Warblade (Maneuvers) is better for offense. Between the classes, is one really better than the other?

I once kicked a Alip's ass with a warblade who only had a +4 Con belt (everyone else had around 56K in gear...). The DM said my +1 blade wouldn't work so I pulled off my belt and used Ruby Nightmare Blade (or whichever one let's me attack FF). I essentially went granddad and whipped an Alip back to death....

So I may be a bit biased but I have to say Warblade, they have so many nifty Ex abilities.

[ArcturusV]

I'd say Warblade. It's a general truism in DnD that Offense > Defense. Not just because of things like a lack of control over the battlefield (Reactionary Actions and such), it's just the way the system scales. You're going to end up with something like +40 attack long before you'd ever end up with +40 AC. The ability to inflict harm grows much faster than the ability to defend oneself or others.

Which generally means you should side for Offense over Defense.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Technically? Assuming the same amount of optimization, I'd place them Warblade>Totemist>Knight.

But a Knight 4/Warblade 16 isn't a bad mix, especially if you stagger the Knight levels to ensure that you can take a 3rd level stance for your Warblade's second stance.

[AmberVael]

In terms of power, Warblade definitely beats out the knight. Though they have a nearly identical chassis, the abilities loaded onto that chassis strongly favors Warblade. A warblade gains more abilities, their abilities are broader in effect, and their abilities are stronger in power.

As a note, in the Tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=bc18425e5fa73d30e4a9a54889edf4 4e&topic=5293) the Knight is Tier 5, and the Warblade Tier 3. There's a clear gap between them.


PS: Totemist is a pretty rad class too, but a very different playstyle than Warblade. It's definitely less of a pure fighter class though, even if one of its main draws is that it can go crazy and rip people to shreds with a thousand natural weapons.

[PolloMark]

Okay, fair enough. So where would the Totemist fit in? Between Warblade and Knight?

[AmberVael]

My argument would be that a well used Totemist is about equal or a bit weaker than the Warblade, but definitely stronger than the Knight.

Incarnum is a wacky system though, and the strengths and capabilities of it are not readily apparent. And again, I wouldn't consider Totemist a fully combatant class, even if it excels in that role- namely because a fair amount of its power comes from non-combatant things.
Of course, those non-combatant things are why it is a decent class. It's nice to be able to do stuff outside of a fight.

[Waker]

Okay, fair enough. So where would the Totemist fit in? Between Warblade and Knight?

As AmberVael points out, a Totemist is weaker than a Warblade but stronger than a Knight. It has a flexible combat approach, mostly in the form of a large number of natural attacks to utilize. Out of combat it can make a rather effective scout due to it's various melds offering bonuses to Hide/Move Silently and sensory boosts like Scent. Totemists also have less dependency on attributes, really only needing Str/Con or Dex/Con depending on your build, whereas a Knight generally need Str/Con and a decent Charisma.

Warblade-T3
Totemist-T3
Knight-T5

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Pretty much, if you really want to tank, then go a warblade with a spiked chain and tripping builds with Attacks of Opportunity. That, and some roilar's gambit and karmic strike so you can damage enemies when they try to hit you, and then take stone power maybe. However, it is best to quickly end an opponent, not letting them hit you repeatedly. After all, an ounce of protection is worth a pound of cure, and a chain-tripper worth of prevention and shut-down is worth the DM getting pissed off. At least, I think that's how the saying goes...

[Flickerdart]

Knight is kind of rubbish - you get saddled with a code, you have mounted combat forced upon you but not in enough capacity to be good at it, the various Challenge abilities carry more restrictions than their actual text, and everything you get between levels 4 and 20 sucks. Oh, and Fighting Challenge only works vs one enemy, is typed the same as a bard's song, and scales slower without being able to boost it with items.