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TheDarkSaint
2013-06-02, 01:22 AM
I've been doing this DM thing for a while now. I've got a set of experianced players and we're actually going to start the Sunless Citadel adventure path and we plan on going through all the way to Ashardalon.

However, I have no desire to have random murder hobos saunter through town, grab some clues and then off to the Citadel. I don't want the mayor to meet them in a bar.

So, I'm going to try something very different for me and I'd like feedback. I'm not married to this idea, so anything you give me I'll take quite seriously.

(Party Composition)
Lesser Aasimar Cleric to Pelor
Human Crusader
Human Fighter
Human Rouge
Human Sorceror
Gnomish Bard

(what I'm going to read to them when we log on to play. Setting is in town, at night)

(cleric) You are pushed back a couple of inches as you try to hold the double wooden doors of the church closed. Your mentor, Corkie, pushes along with you, looking frightened. The howls of many goblins outside grate on your nerves as they bash into the door again with an improvised ram. The 5 terrified families huddle in the corner of the chapel.

(Crusader) Red eyes of the 6 goblins stare back at you as you wave a torch at them. The alley way is short and the two small children behind you whimper in fear. The the front goblins lower long spears to keep you at bay while the others ready nets. (He then needs to make a DC 9 listen check to hear the possibility of being flanked by another set of goblins behind him)


(Rouge) Your arms start to ache as you continue to push against the ceiling rafters to keep yourself aloft, out of the goblin patrols way. Your tiny niece clings to your back as the goblins toss around your belongings in the house. Make a DC 9 tumble check, then a DC 8 hide check to keep yourself out of view

(Fighter) The net around you tightens as 6 goblins pull hard on the line, almost dragging you off your feet. Suddenly, Sir Brandford is there, swinging Shatterspike and screaming for Pelor. Make a DC 12 balance check to stay on your feet. (list ways to get out of the net). Sir Brandford seems to be holding the goblins off your back. Another group of them chases after a family trying to escape them.

(Sorcerer) The fetid breath of the goblin on top of you makes you gag and the primal fear of the will survive surges through you body. The little horrid creature pushes down with all its weight on the dagger with your arm as the only thing keeping the blade from pushing into your lungs. Make a Str check at +2 due to size modifiers.

(Bard) The children in the barn with you huddle together as you peer out a keyhole at another band of goblins passing, dragging struggling villagers in nets. One of the little ones sounds like she is about ready to start crying, which would definitely give away your position. What do you do?



I'm trying to avoid the "let's line up and fight goblins who throw themselves helplessly on our blades" kind of scenario, where fighting isn't a good option since they have so many innocents to protect. And this just seems more goblin like to me, striking in darkness, overwhelming numbers and the advantage of surprise.


Good idea? Bad? Modifications? What would your thoughts as players be?

VeliciaL
2013-06-02, 01:33 AM
No comments off the top of my head except that this sounds REALLY cool, and I hope you let us know how it goes!

Rhynn
2013-06-02, 01:36 AM
Sounds good! In media res works well for RPGs, I feel. Although you might have the players decide what and who their character cares about: something like "list three things you care about, and three people you care about" is a pretty good idea for any campaign/character/game, anyway.

LokiRagnarok
2013-06-02, 04:04 AM
One minor comment about the rogue: the player might not want to have a niece, since that also implies a brother or sister, which might not fit into the character background. Maybe something like "little <generic girl name here> is clinging to your back" instead?

Otherwise, sounds pretty cool.

TheDarkSaint
2013-06-02, 04:13 AM
All character backgrounds have been submitted, so I double checked on the niece.

For a while, I did the "what three things did you want" question icewith my players, but this time, I asked them something new at creation. I had them take character archtypes from Star Wars.

Luke: Unhappy with boring life. Wants to see the world, get into trouble. Restless and bored. Feels current location 'isn't enough'

Leia: Fights hard against injustices. Believes in righting wrongs. May not want to risk life, but will do so because no one else will.

Han: Big debt to pay off and they need money now.

Chewie: Loyalty is everything. You go where your friends go, for whatever reason.


I have 3 lukes, 2 chewies and a Leia. After the initial goblin attack, the PC's should have enough internal motivation to want to go after the golins without having to be bribed or coaxed.

I also set the tone by saying they could only play good alignments.

mrzomby
2013-06-02, 08:23 AM
No one wants to be han? That's a first. : P

Good things in my opinion are that you aren't starting the group off knowing each other and already being a party, you are letting them form themselves, a small thing, but I do like getting a chance to roleplay meeting people.

TheDarkSaint
2013-06-02, 10:30 AM
Nobody wanted to start with a massive amount of debt

DMMike
2013-06-02, 11:12 AM
I usually see/feel resentment when characters are put directly in danger, without having the option (just the option) to avoid it. But I'm guessing the encounter is supposed to be a cakewalk, so they'll get over it.

Some of those DCs look a little high for an initial encounter. Let the PCs roll, and just let them succeed unless they roll something Mentally Handicapped. Also, you'll probably get more verisimilitude if you tell a player that the task is "fairly easy" instead of "DC 9."

Looks fun!

TheDarkSaint
2013-06-02, 12:10 PM
DDMIke,

I like the idea of hiding the numbers. (swipe)

Most of my guys are pretty well optimized, so skills that they would need for the encounter are at least +6.

I'm a little leery of starting them in danger, but every other game consists of them quickly closing ranks and fighting something with a great amount of effectiveness, rather unlike what people who tangentially know each other might really do.

I don't plan on doing this often, it just feels like a neat way of starting things off. Any suggestions how to simulate the adrenaline rush of a character in mortal danger without them being able to ginsu the encounter to shreds? The more ideas I've got, the better.

tasw
2013-06-02, 12:47 PM
cool idea. 2 ideas though.

1. I wouldnt start them in any seriously compromising positions like grappled or netted. Maybe when the knight helps the fighter he slashes the rope holding the net and the sorcerer throws the goblin off the top of him taking a minor cut (no hp damage) in the process. With a bad roll both of those situations could mess the character up pretty badly right off the bat and that can create negative feelings.

2. I would make the town smallish if possible so the characters have at least a passing acquintance with each other even if they arent friends. Something like that can grease the wheels of the initial meeting RP between characters.

TheDarkSaint
2013-06-02, 01:12 PM
I've set the town at pop 500. All the characters have backgrounds that currently interact with each other, so they are familiar.

The sorcerer one I'm the most worried about. I think it has great drama, but I'd like to find a way to keep all that drama and tension but give him a chance to get a spell off. Hostage situation maybe?

The fighter is the only one who will have armor and weapons, as he was on patrol with Sir Brandord. With the paladin creating a distraction, he'll have 3 uninterrupted rounds to get free of the net and then cue the family.

With no net, the fighter will carve through the goblins like a hot knife through runny cheese. Ideas beyond the net that can create dramatic tension?

Water_Bear
2013-06-02, 02:06 PM
You might want to reconsider starting PCs as Flanked Grappled or in Nets; that's really a good way to get them killed right away, especially since you're going for "overwhelming numbers" of goblins. This goes doubly for the Sorcerer, who likely doesn't have Still Spell and is thus at a massive disadvantage against even a single CR 1/2 enemy.

As for the intro, it's very punchy but I personally wouldn't like it. Babysitting civilians in a fight is obnoxious enough as it is, but kids are even worse because of how hard it is to shake loose from them. And I will eat my hat if the rogue doesn't jump down and start killing goblins on round 1; messing with the PC's **** is the surest way I've ever found to get them into a berserker rage.

If it was me running the adventure, I'd let the civilian carnage go on in the background and give the players less of a disadvantage at the start. If the gobbos open by burning the buildings to drive the civies out into a choke point, the PCs can start by fighting their ways out of burning buildings then meet up in the village square and then figure out what to do from there. Leave some NPC Guards for the Bard to coordinate, keep the civies moving and kill as many of them as quickly as possible, and don't worry about the Fighter/Crusader doing too well in combat (that's sort of their job). No lodestone children, that's just too mean.

GnomeFighter
2013-06-03, 03:55 AM
With no net, the fighter will carve through the goblins like a hot knife through runny cheese. Ideas beyond the net that can create dramatic tension?

Overwhelming numbers but always leaving a clear escape route. Never let anyone be trapped, and always give them a way to go with a big sign and flashing lights, but keep them running. Most of them won't have gear so don't give them chance to pick it up. I say get them to help everyone out of the town, hide in the woods and come back tomorrow finding that most of the place has been ransacked.

Remove the flanking and just have hundreds of goblins force him back down the street.

If they do decide to fight then give them a few rounds of just about holding the goblins off before more turn up. If they keep fighting they do so through there own fault of not knowing when to run.

TheDarkSaint
2013-06-03, 10:03 AM
So, I did what I should have done from the start and checked with my PC's.

Without giving away too many details to them, I vaguely outlined what would be going down.

Once the mock jokes of "NO MORE TAVERN QUEST GIVERS?!" died down, they gave me an enthusiastic thumbs up and are now chomping at the bit, nervous and excited for what may be coming up.

Full steam ahead. I might start doing a Campaign Log: Sunless Citadel if it turns out pretty good.

Water_Bear
2013-06-03, 10:31 AM
Without giving away too many details to them, I vaguely outlined what would be going down.

Did this include a "you will start out in extraordinarily tactical dangerous positions" warning?

Asmodai
2013-06-03, 11:02 AM
What's the party role of a Rouge? Does one of the characters have a strong Frank-N-Furter vibe? How does it prop up the rafters, and why does it have a family? Are they a part of the same production line?

Otherwise, it's a neat plan, but I'd try and flesh out the details with your players. You'd be amazed at what you can get when you ask them to build up their ties for a place you're designing.

TheDarkSaint
2013-06-03, 11:35 AM
I let them know full well that they will be starting at a disadvantage in most cases. I listed prone, grappled, hiding from superior force, flanked, captured, overrun, disarmed, weaponless, armorless, in darkness, escort duty and overran.

They were enthusiasitc. One of them said "If I die, my brother in my background is so going to avenge my death. This is gonna be sweet"

I think they are a wee bit tired of my standard "hire the party for the MacGuiffin" quest.

Xeratos
2013-06-03, 12:03 PM
Sounds interesting. I'm going to guess, based on context, that your players are starting at level 1. I'm also going to assume the tense scenario will devolve into "kill goblins, as many as you can reach" as soon as they get out of the situations you drop them into. Do you have new situations for them to stumble into after the initial ones?

TheDarkSaint
2013-06-03, 01:01 PM
I'm using the Sunless Citadel module path with some serious plot modifications to string all the pieces together. We'll be starting on this Saturday. I'll keep some notes and post how it went.

Felandria
2013-06-03, 01:17 PM
Yeah, I agree with the others, you might kill your sorcerer in the first five minutes.

Mordar
2013-06-04, 12:38 PM
Sounds good! In media res works well for RPGs, I feel. Although you might have the players decide what and who their character cares about: something like "list three things you care about, and three people you care about" is a pretty good idea for any campaign/character/game, anyway.

Stop stealing my comments. There's barely room enough in my head for me, let alone you :smallwink:


I usually see/feel resentment when characters are put directly in danger, without having the option (just the option) to avoid it. But I'm guessing the encounter is supposed to be a cakewalk, so they'll get over it.

Some of those DCs look a little high for an initial encounter. Let the PCs roll, and just let them succeed unless they roll something Mentally Handicapped. Also, you'll probably get more verisimilitude if you tell a player that the task is "fairly easy" instead of "DC 9."

Looks fun!

I strongly disagree with the first point - going in media res has always been well received by my groups (along with "Now tell me how/why you reached this point" elements, where the players have to explain to the group how they ended up naked in a barrel fighting with a haunch of mutton, for instance). Of course, YMMV - it depends ever so strongly on your players.

That being said, I strongly agree with your DC point and allowing idiom-specific routes of fairly easy escape/success for the characters.

- M

TheDarkSaint
2013-06-08, 07:55 AM
UPDATE:
As promised, I'm going to give the reactions the players had.

Overwhelmingly positive. they liked the new feeling of starting somewhere isolated and in possible danger.

Crusader: Used a flaming torch and intimidate to his advantage to scare off a smaller band of goblins.

Sorcerer: I changed this one to having him deal with a hostage situation. He was able to get a charm person off on the goblin who failed his will save spectacularly. He couldn't speak goblin, but managed to get the girl hostage away.

Rouge: He failed his tumble check, but did so well on a move silently check and strength check and hide check that I mitigated the disaster by having him play hide and seek with the goblins while getting his niece out of the house.

Lesser Aasimar Cleric: Quickly used his Daylight ability to drive off the light sensitive goblins and rescued an entrapped NPC from a net before she could be dragged off for dinner.

Bard: Utilized his fascinate ability on the children to get them to quiet down and then had them hide in the hay. Snuck out to join his friends when the children were safe.

Fighter: Had to come quite late to the game, so was already freed by the Crusader by the time he arrived.

The group didn't initiate a battle until 3 of them were able to support each other and used skills and abilities to get out of the jams they were in. I had the crusader tell me that's the first time he ever really felt he could use Intimidate for what it was meant for instead of just hoping for a combat bonus.

Once they had grouped up, the goblins fell or fled rather quickly. Seemed a very positive experience.