Gestalt Soulbow build/Feats (3.5)

[RebelRogue]

I'm making a character for a secondary campaign (what is planned to be the "oh, we're a few players short today, let's play this instead" campaign of my gaming group).

We're talking 3.5 gestalt, level 12 (most sources allowed). Stats are rolled using a custom system (and are therefore fixed at the values shown on the sheet). Optimization level is rather low, even if the players are rather experienced: broadly speaking we use gestalt more as a way to make things that otherwise suck into something worthwhile, rather than stack two tier one classes for ultimate power.

In that spirit, my build uses soulknife with a side of monk getting into soulbow (an actually decent PrC). I wanted a full BAB class on the other gestalt side, and ended up with ranger for the archery focus, which meshes well with soulbow. Since several of the other characters in the campaign will have some sneak attack, I opted for distracting shot instead of an animal companion.

Realizing that the character basically needs no items, I decided to choose another, usually suboptimal strategy: that of Vow of Poverty. Yeah, I guess I could probably squeeze more out of the corresponding WBL with some work, but I like the flavor and I get to skip the (imo) somewhat tedious shopping procedure.

Sheet so far is here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=582126). There's a lot of details missing still.

So, I'm aware this isn't a crazy powerful build by any means, but here's a few things I'm wondering:

- Is there a way for me to get to treat my mind arrows as monk weapons? Or, if that's not possible/practical is there a good ACF that trades away flurry of blows which I have absolutely no use for otherwise? (I couldn't seem to find anything usable with a quick googling).
- The Psionic Shot line of Feats (which the character has atm) seems somewhat suboptimal (two feats for 4d6 damage once pr. combat (unless I spend a full-round action focusing) is pretty steep). Am I right thinking this, and if yes, any ideas for replacements?
- The available Exalted Feats (which the character gets in spades from the VoP) from the BoED seem a little limited. Any alternate sources for those?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter levels would make for a much stronger character than Ranger, though a bit less useful when not in combat. Ranger is typically taken with Swift Hunter for an archer, but it relies on Greater Manyshot to get skirmish damage which isn't usable with Mind Arrows.

(Cloistered) Cleric with DMM: Persist Divine Power has full BAB, but probably a little higher on the optimization scale than you'd prefer.

Keep in mind you can use TWF with Mind Arrows, or even Multiweapon Fighting if you go with something like a Thri-Kreen. The nonpsionic variant of that from MM2/Shining South gets its +2 LA reduced to +1 in exchange for the psi-like abilities and naturally psionic trait.


To answer your specific questions:
Mind Arrows cannot be treated as Monk weapons, consider using (Unarmed) Swordsage instead of Monk.

Psionic Shot is worthless if you're full attacking, I wouldn't even bother taking it. Speed of Thought and Up The Walls are better choices for psionic feats on this type of character.

You cannot substitute the bonus exalted feats for other types of feats, though you can use shenanigans like the Dark Chaos Shuffle to switch them out.

[INoKnowNames]

Fighter levels would make for a much stronger character than Ranger, though a bit less useful when not in combat. Ranger is typically taken with Swift Hunter for an archer, but it relies on Greater Manyshot to get skirmish damage which isn't usable with Mind Arrows.

If you don't mind me asking, where does it say you can't Skirmish with Mind Arrows? Nothing in the description of Skirmish notes a need for anything other than being within 30 ft. for ranged weapons to be able to Skirmish. And nothing in the Mind Arrow description notes being unable to apply precision damage with them. If you can do it with a Composite Longbow, you should be able to do it with a Mind Arrow, given that they're the same...

I ask because I just helped a friend make a Soulbow//Swift Hunter, and there was little hang up over doing so. Even did Two Weapon Fighting with the Ranger Levels, because firing energy blasts from both hands while running around is cool.

Also, other than the slightly higher hit dice (which if I recall, Soulknifes and Soulbows have the same of), the only advantage a Fighter gets over a Ranger are a couple of Feats, and the Ranger's Skirmish and Style Feats, along with spells (especially keyed off of Wisdom) seems like it makes up for that quite a bit.

[Callin]

Mystic Ranger ACF could go really well with this. Also if you take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat after lvl 4 you could get Wiz spells as well. Of course you would only get 4th level Wiz spells because of the 14 int. All in all I think it would give your character just a tad more power but not over do it and give you more versatility in general.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you don't mind me asking, where does it say you can't Skirmish with Mind Arrows? Nothing in the description of Skirmish notes a need for anything other than being within 30 ft. for ranged weapons to be able to Skirmish. And nothing in the Mind Arrow description notes being unable to apply precision damage with them. If you can do it with a Composite Longbow, you should be able to do it with a Mind Arrow, given that they're the same...

I ask because I just helped a friend make a Soulbow//Swift Hunter, and there was little hang up over doing so. Even did Two Weapon Fighting with the Ranger Levels, because firing energy blasts from both hands while running around is cool.

Also, other than the slightly higher hit dice (which if I recall, Soulknifes and Soulbows have the same of), the only advantage a Fighter gets over a Ranger are a couple of Feats, and the Ranger's Skirmish and Style Feats, along with spells (especially keyed off of Wisdom) seems like it makes up for that quite a bit.

I was saying you can't use Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) with Mind Arrows, because this is the standard method of getting skirmish damage on more than one attack with an archer. This feat is used because you can't move and also full attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions).

If you move and attack, you get one shot. If you want to make more than one shot, whether by having a high BAB, using TWF, Rapid Shot, Haste, etc., you have to take a full attack action. You cannot combine a full attack with a move action, so you cannot skirmish on a full attack without limited-use abilities like Travel Devotion.

[INoKnowNames]

This feat is used because you can't move and also full attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions).

If you move and attack, you get one shot. If you want to make more than one shot, whether by having a high BAB, using TWF, Rapid Shot, Haste, etc., you have to take a full attack action. You cannot combine a full attack with a move action, so you cannot skirmish on a full attack without limited-use abilities like Travel Devotion.

All of this, I understand entirely (Though, since Two Weapon Fighting is recommended, which can't be done on Greater Many Shot, I'd actually sooner recommend a Cloistered Cleric dip on the Ranger side for Travel Devotion and the Undeath Domain (I think it's Undeath... whichever one grants Extra Turning), to be able to get Full Attacking Skirmish quite a few times a day, before magic items or other feats).


I was saying you can't use Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) with Mind Arrows


Ranger is typically taken with Swift Hunter for an archer, but it relies on Greater Manyshot to get skirmish damage which isn't usable with Mind Arrows.

It is these two parts here that I'm not seeing where the incompatability is. What is it that I'm not seeing that says you can't do this?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It is these two parts here that I'm not seeing where the incompatability is. What is it that I'm not seeing that says you can't do this?

It appears I was mistaken, I'd been thinking Manyshot included a requirement that it be used with a bow (as opposed to a crossbow, or the mind arrows which don't use an actual bow). While it is implied that it's not usable with a crossbow (arrow vs bolt), it appears that it can be used with Mind Arrows after all. Manyshot and the greater version are even specifically listed among those that can be taken as Soulbow bonus feats, so it would make sense that they can combined with the class's signature attack.

[RebelRogue]

I went with ranger over fighter for a bit more utility, yes. I also don't exactly feel starved for Feats. Mystic ranger looks pretty neat: even more utility and great synergy with the high Wisdom.

I'm looking in to the Swordsage option. I haven't really used ToB much (no dislike for it, I've just never actually played a martial adept myself), but it looks like I need two levels to get the AC bonus. That's one Souknife level less, which is no great loss. Any suggestions for stances/maneuvres?

[INoKnowNames]

It appears I was mistaken, I'd been thinking Manyshot included a requirement that it be used with a bow (as opposed to a crossbow, or the mind arrows which don't use an actual bow). While it is implied that it's not usable with a crossbow (arrow vs bolt), it appears that it can be used with Mind Arrows after all. Manyshot and the greater version are even specifically listed among those that can be taken as Soulbow bonus feats, so it would make sense that they can combined with the class's signature attack.

Heh. I should have checked the Soulbow Bonus feats; that would have straightened that out entirely. Thanks for making that clear for me; I didn't want to have messed up my friend, which is why I asked so persistently.

As for this thread, I'd like to remind that unless you've -really- into the fluff, you'll probably want to stay clear of Vow of Poverty. Few characters really benefit from it, and at such a high level you're already about the point where you're not getting quite as much for your buck. Nemesis is interesting, but otherwise I'm not sure you're getting all that much for it. Trading a tedious shopping procedure for tediously looking for feats that are worth it.... I think my point is clear. Your character, though. You might be able to get some use of it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Definitely get Child of Shadow, as long as you stay on the move you'll have concealment, as long as you have concealment you can hide (at a -20 penalty due to sniping). I'd also get Hunter's Sense, and Sudden Leap and Counter Charge can come in handy.

See if you can swap your Wild Talent feat from Soulknife for Hidden Talent, XPH p67, and pick Chameleon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/chameleon.htm). This is so you can use a Dorje (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/dorjes.htm) (wand) of Chameleon to get +10 Hide for 10 minutes per charge, at 15 gp per charge. The Ranger spell list will allow you to use a Wand of Camouflage (SC), which is also +10 Hide for 10 minutes per charge, at 15 gp per charge. Chameleon is an Enhancement bonus, Camouflage is a Circumstance bonus, so they'll stack and that will counteract the -20 Hide penalty for sniping. Opponents will have to beat your Hide check with a Spot check to know where you're standing unless they carry a bag of flour.

Just to point out, Vow of Poverty is not an ideal choice for this character by any means. A Swordsage can wear light armor and still get his Wis bonus to AC. As you can see from the previous paragraph, magic items have unique benefits that VoP bonuses cannot replace (another example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101)). Sword of the Arcane Order involves preparing spells from a spellbook, a valuable object that you cannot have if you take VoP.

In light of the compatibility between Greater Manyshot and Mind Arrows, I'm going to strongly recommend you switch Ranger 12 to Scout 4/ Ranger 8, and take the feat Swift Hunter from Complete Scoundrel. This will allow you to move and Greater Manyshot, adding 3d6 damage per arrow and granting +3 AC at level 12, and Child of Shadow will give you concealment permitting you to always be hiding despite sniping penalties. Also note that opponents will be denied their Dex bonus to AC if they can't spot you.

For your feats, move Zen Archery to one of your Soulbow bonus feats, and get rid of (Greater) Psionic Shot and Improved Rapid Shot. If you're going to take Sword of the Arcane Order, then pick up Magical Training (PGtF) at 1st level to get a spellbook and the ability to scribe spells into it. You can get Point-Blank Shot at your Scout 4 bonus feat. Be sure to get Swordsage at 1st level because it gives you x6 skill points instead of the standard x4, but get the second Swordsage level after at least two Soulknife to get a 2nd level maneuver (Shadow Jaunt). You can get more Swordsage later on for some higher level maneuvers and stances.

Edit: Take the feat Woodland Archer from Races of the Wild. It's a game changer for archers.

[Frozen_Feet]

How about taking a little Monk, then using Soulknife and Psychic Warrior as gestalt while stacking in Tashalatora to essentially advance three classes worth of abilities?

[INoKnowNames]

Definitely get Child of Shadow, as long as you stay on the move you'll have concealment, as long as you have concealment you can hide (at a -20 penalty due to sniping). I'd also get Hunter's Sense, and Sudden Leap and Counter Charge can come in handy.

See if you can swap your Wild Talent feat from Soulknife for Hidden Talent, XPH p67, and pick Chameleon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/chameleon.htm). This is so you can use a Dorje (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/dorjes.htm) (wand) of Chameleon to get +10 Hide for 10 minutes per charge, at 15 gp per charge. The Ranger spell list will allow you to use a Wand of Camouflage (SC), which is also +10 Hide for 10 minutes per charge, at 15 gp per charge. Chameleon is an Enhancement bonus, Camouflage is a Circumstance bonus, so they'll stack and that will counteract the -20 Hide penalty for sniping. Opponents will have to beat your Hide check with a Spot check to know where you're standing unless they carry a bag of flour.

Just to point out, Vow of Poverty is not an ideal choice for this character by any means. A Swordsage can wear light armor and still get his Wis bonus to AC. As you can see from the previous paragraph, magic items have unique benefits that VoP bonuses cannot replace (another example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101)). Sword of the Arcane Order involves preparing spells from a spellbook, a valuable object that you cannot have if you take VoP.

In light of the compatibility between Greater Manyshot and Mind Arrows, I'm going to strongly recommend you switch Ranger 12 to Scout 4/ Ranger 8, and take the feat Swift Hunter from Complete Scoundrel. This will allow you to move and Greater Manyshot, adding 3d6 damage per arrow and granting +3 AC at level 12, and Child of Shadow will give you concealment permitting you to always be hiding despite sniping penalties. Also note that opponents will be denied their Dex bonus to AC if they can't spot you.

For your feats, move Zen Archery to one of your Soulbow bonus feats, and get rid of (Greater) Psionic Shot and Improved Rapid Shot. If you're going to take Sword of the Arcane Order, then pick up Magical Training (PGtF) at 1st level to get a spellbook and the ability to scribe spells into it. You can get Point-Blank Shot at your Scout 4 bonus feat. Be sure to get Swordsage at 1st level because it gives you x6 skill points instead of the standard x4, but get the second Swordsage level after at least two Soulknife to get a 2nd level maneuver (Shadow Jaunt). You can get more Swordsage later on for some higher level maneuvers and stances.

Edit: Take the feat Woodland Archer from Races of the Wild. It's a game changer for archers.

I have two notes: Swordsage x6 skill points is seen by many as a typo, so you should approve that before you get away with is.

Secondly, I'd always been under the assumption you couldn't Full Attack while Sniping for some reason. Isn't that the case? If so, then why is the above strategy so stellar? If it isn't... then I need to write this down.


How about taking a little Monk, then using Soulknife and Psychic Warrior as gestalt while stacking in Tashalatora to essentially advance three classes worth of abilities?

I'm not sure if you can stack Soulknife & Psychic Warrior, and even if you choose to Tashalatora the Soulknife doesn't mean you can add Soulbow Bonuses as well. That sounds a bit DM dependant.

And since you can't add unarmed strike damage to Soulbow (as far as I know), I'm not sure about trading it over Swift Hunter or sacrificing some Soulbow strength to do so.

[RebelRogue]

Lots of food for thought. I will look into it. Thanks for the suggestions.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I have two notes: Swordsage x6 skill points is seen by many as a typo, so you should approve that before you get away with is.

Secondly, I'd always been under the assumption you couldn't Full Attack while Sniping for some reason. Isn't that the case? If so, then why is the above strategy so stellar? If it isn't... then I need to write this down.

Swordsage x6 skill points at 1st level is RAW. The errata passed over that page before it went sideways, so the reasoning goes if it was supposed to get fixed then it would have been.

I recommended sniping with Greater Manyshot.

[INoKnowNames]

Swordsage x6 skill points at 1st level is RAW. The errata passed over that page before it went sideways, so the reasoning goes if it was supposed to get fixed then it would have been.

I recommended sniping with Greater Manyshot.

True, but the errata missed a lot of things, and it's possible for a mistake to be made twice. Not everything that is Rules is Written is Rules as Intended, or even "Rules as the GM might not try to patch". Nick Fury puts it better than I can. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywkzQTGkPFg) I'm just saying either hide it well or be upfront about it, as I've personally seen it contested in game, and if it happens to one player, with 7 billion people on the planet it might happen again.

Hm... Greater Manyshot Sniping.... whether or not Manyshot counts as "One Ranged Attack" seems questionable as well, but on this, again, I'm talking out of my ass, so fire away if it works.