Stoneskin Overpriced?

[Sylthia]

Why does stoneskin cost 250g every time you cast it? It's a nice buff, but it seems kind of odd to single it out, considering other buffs/spells are just as good or even better, but don't cost anything (i.e. time stop).

Stoneskin's not even a flat 10 DR, it expires once 10HP per caster level has been chipped away, so it's more like temporary HP than anything else.

[Barsoom]

I always viewed it as more of an NPC spell. You know, one of the buffs the BBEG has before he meets the PCs for a climactic confrontaiton. It is a bit overcosted for PC use. Maybe with Contingency....

[denthor]

Why does stoneskin cost 250g every time you cast it? It's a nice buff, but it seems kind of odd to single it out, considering other buffs/spells are just as good or even better, but don't cost anything (i.e. time stop).

Stoneskin's not even a flat 10 DR, it expires once 10HP per caster level has been chipped away, so it's more like temporary HP than anything else.

Ok the 250 gp is the cost of the diamond dust that is sprinkled thrown on the spell recipient. If you have scroll at minimum casting level. Your DM can say the money has already been spent or you still need the spell component cost.

Different versions of that spell in the past have said that one hit point or 200 hit points of damage were stop completely for ten hits of any weapon or spell (2.0 version). You can ask for research however I played in a game you are alseep a companion pokes you and wakes you up. This discharge one stone skin. Fall off a cliff bouce twice that is three stoneskins.

Four magic missle no damage four stone skins discharged. You get the idea.

I like this version a little better you take 10 hp off per hit till you hit 90 hit points then you only take 2 points if the opponent hits for 12 hit points.

[Just to Browse]

The minimum character level for casting stoneskin is 7th (if you're a wizard) at which point you've got like 20,000gp of loot--the 250gp to burn on diamonds is just flavor. It's less than what you'd get for selling a wand of cure light wounds.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The cost is to discourage you from wearing it 24/7 or throwing it up every battle.

And I seem to remember it being much worse. One of the standard spells that made Dispel Magic an absolute nessecity to do damage at all in old BG II. Fricken Liches.

[Barsoom]

The minimum character level for casting stoneskin is 7th (if you're a wizard) at which point you've got like 20,000gp of loot--the 250gp to burn on diamonds is just flavor.One-time may be peanuts, but it quickly adds up if you intend to have Stoneskin on for every battle.

Standard guidlines indicate ~13 encounters per level, so that's about 3,000 gp per level. For the record, the difference between 7th level and 8th level WBL is 10,000 gp, so you're blowing 30% of your income on Stoneskins. Definitely not peanuts now.

And even that is assuming even that you have enough foresight to match every casting of Stoneskin to a battle, and nothing is wasted. If you waste Stoneskin castings, it ends up a lot more.

[eggynack]

One-time may be peanuts, but it quickly adds up if you intend to have Stoneskin on for every battle.

Standard guidlines indicate ~13 encounters per level, so that's about 3,000 gp per level. For the record, the difference between 7th level and 8th level WBL is 10,000 gp, so you're blowing 30% of your income on Stoneskins. Definitely not peanuts now.

And even that is assuming even that you have enough foresight to match every casting of Stoneskin to a battle, and nothing is wasted. If you waste Stoneskin castings, it ends up a lot more.
Yeah, but that's also assuming that you have to cast stone skin every time you have an encounter if you want it up for every encounter. The cost is cut by half if you can fit in two encounters during the spell's 70 minute duration, and if you cast it right before a big dungeon, you might be able to get through the whole thing before you run dry. You're overestimating the cost a bit on that basis.

Edit: The minimum of 70 hit point duration is relevant as well, but you have to be hit seven times for that to come up.

[Sylthia]

I's rather have the polymorph cheese or even spells like Haste or Fly have material cost. They seem to be bigger game changers than Stoneskin.

[Just to Browse]

If you have to pop stoneskin to prevent 70 damage in every encounter, you are doing wizard wrong. Stoneskin should be a buff for fights where you're getting hit by a lot of people for a little damage each, and it will go on one character who tanks those enemies' hits. So the furthest reaches of likelihood have you casting this probably four times between level 7 and level 8, for 1000gp (5% of your WBL at level 7, or 10% of your total income). That's a bit more than how much one other guy in the party should spend on wands of cure light wounds (or lesser vigor), and yours has the benefit that you're preventing damage instead of healing it (decreasing the chance of dead party members).

And remember this is at the lowest possible level. Other casters get this at level 11 which is even smaller peanuts.

[Story]

You can also save a lot of money by using free buffs such as Heart of Earth. Most fights don't last long anyway, though it does cost you a swift action.

[TuggyNE]

Ok the 250 gp is the cost of the diamond dust that is sprinkled thrown on the spell recipient. If you have scroll at minimum casting level. Your DM can say the money has already been spent or you still need the spell component cost.

Note that scrolls contain the cost of material components in their market value, so that's not a way to save money.

[Coidzor]

If you have to pop stoneskin to prevent 70 damage in every encounter, you are doing wizard wrong. Stoneskin should be a buff for fights where you're getting hit by a lot of people for a little damage each, and it will go on one character who tanks those enemies' hits. So the furthest reaches of likelihood have you casting this probably four times between level 7 and level 8, for 1000gp (5% of your WBL at level 7, or 10% of your total income). That's a bit more than how much one other guy in the party should spend on wands of cure light wounds (or lesser vigor), and yours has the benefit that you're preventing damage instead of healing it (decreasing the chance of dead party members).

And remember this is at the lowest possible level. Other casters get this at level 11 which is even smaller peanuts.

My bigger issue is that it's a great buff for helping play nice with other classes, but the material component cost discourages using it in this manner.

[Silva Stormrage]

Seconding the use of heart of earth. MUCH better and safer and it gives some temporary hit points as well.

[eggynack]

Heart of earth is pretty sweet. Heart of water is the best one, so I suppose you'd use heart of earth instead of air, so that you can access the light fortification from that direction. You could always just go full captain planet too, because that line of spells is so frigging great. Heart of water is basically a better freedom of movement in a lower slot. Heart of stone is probably a bit better than stone skin in the same level slot, so it's not as good as water. Hours per level that can be expended for rounds per level is basically the best duration for a freedom of movement effect. It doesn't come up all that often, and when it does, you really need it.

[Darrin]

Note that scrolls contain the cost of material components in their market value, so that's not a way to save money.

Chaos Flask (100 GP, Planar Handbook) is a bit cheaper. Wis check DC 13 as a free action, and you have 250 GP of diamond dust.

[Tvtyrant]

Have a Dweomerkeeper make it as an SU Minor Schema? Then you can use it free forever!

[Eurus]

I always assumed it was a legacy thing. Like half of the material component things are. I also am under the vague impression that stoneskin was hilariously powerful in certain editions? Not entirely sure.

[Psyren]

The cost is to discourage you from wearing it 24/7 or throwing it up every battle.

This. More importantly, it can be cast on others - the party fighters, tanking pets, even the rogue before having him check on some physical traps - and provide protection that doesn't interfere with any of their armor, offense or mobility. It would be an expectation for every party that passes a certain level to have up continuously, and the DM would be forced to compensate.

[Raven777]

I always assumed it was a legacy thing. Like half of the material component things are. I also am under the vague impression that stoneskin was hilariously powerful in certain editions? Not entirely sure.

Ever played Bladur's Gate II?

[lightningcat]

Part of the reason is that expensive material components were used to balance spellcaster against mundanes. They use 50%+ of their wealth to cast spells, which means less gear, which means better balance.

It didn't work. I wonder why?

[Sylthia]

It would be a nice buff to cast on party members, but even if it wasn't so expensive, you likely wouldn't be spamming it as soon you your wizard hit level 7, because he's likely not going to want to spend his 2-3 4th level spell slots that is in many ways inferior to Haste, Fly, or even Improved Invisibility.

[eggynack]

I think the real reason is that the game designers believed that damage reduction was either crazy powerful, or should be inaccessible to players. Just look at some of the uses of player accessible damage reduction in the game. One of the barbarian's class features is damage reduction, except it goes up by one point each time, and tops out at 5. The monk's big level 20 capstone is basically DR 10/magic. One of the game's epic feats is damage reduction. It gives you 3/-. In the context of all of these things, paying 250 GP for stoneskin seems pretty reasonable.

[Psyren]

Part of the reason is that expensive material components were used to balance spellcaster against mundanes. They use 50%+ of their wealth to cast spells, which means less gear, which means better balance.

It didn't work. I wonder why?

Expensive mats are to counter spammability, nothing more. If wealth was truly meant to be a limiting factor on casters, every spell would have a gp cost and component pouches wouldn't exist. Even the WotC assumed standard of blaster wizard and healbot cleric have tons and tons of spells they were expected to use regularly, yet still have negligible material costs for. Cure spells would cost money, fireball and magic missile would cost money, Invisibility and Mage Armor and Magic Weapon would cost money etc.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I wouldn't say Stoneskin is overpriced. You just have to be intelligent about when, where, and on whom you cast it.

For those of you familiar with Red Hand of Doom, for instance, we cast Stoneskin on the party rogue and fighter right as the battle started, and it lasted them through a whole series of encounters. Indeed, the spell very likely saved the fighter's life.

It's the 10 minute/level duration that makes it a gem in my book. That will last you a whole dungeon, certainly a prolonged battle. It's a good spell to cast when things are about to get real. I wouldn't cast it every encounter; indeed, many encounters don't last long enough to justify the expense.

[Saph]

The time you use Stoneskin is when you're about to go into a serious battle, like about 3-4 tough encounters one after the other. Your frontliners are going to take hits and the question is surviving them. Heart of Earth is generally better for self protection, but Heart of Earth is self-only. Stoneskin can be thrown on the party fighter or rogue, and keep them alive when they'd otherwise have died. (The Battle of Brindol in Red Hand of Doom is an good example for when you really really want a spell like Stoneskin on the main frontliner.)

250 GP might seem like a lot, but by levels 7-10 it's not that expensive, really. What's going to boost the party fighter's survivability more in the long run – a 2000 GP ring of protection or amulet of natural armour, or eight castings of Stoneskin?

[Threadnaught]

By the time you get Stoneskin, it has a duration of 70 minutes. That's over an hour, 700 rounds in combat terms. If you Extend it, the duration is now longer than two hours, at 140 minutes. 1400 rounds, that's almost 10% of a 24 hour day.
No really, if a day were broken down and calculated into a single combat session, it would last 14400 rounds.

Every Level adds 10 minutes/100 rounds onto the duration, which of course can still be doubled with an Extends for a buff that lasts most of the day.

You don't cast it at the start of every combat, you generally just need the one cast at the start of the first combat of the day.


I know Extending it isn't the best strategy, but it's worth pointing out anyway.