Though experiment.

[Metahuman1]

So, I've been thinking about this for awhile now and I figured this was a good place to throw it out there and get some ideas.

If one wanted to build a 3.5 character who's primary weapon was a quarter staff, but was also a reasonably competent unarmed combatant to reflect the idea that in a lot of martial arts schools you have to demonstrate a certain level of ability in unarmed combat before they will begin teaching you any armed combat, and one wanted this character to be a highly effective combatant and able to funtion in one or more aspects out of combat, how would you go about it?


I'd like to see what people have in the way of builds to get this done. So, thoughts?

[eggynack]

Well, druids get a few spells that make them good at using quarter staffs. If you count being a bear, they can also combat folks unarmed. That sounds about like how I'd do it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Unseelie Fey Gray Elf Rogue 1/Monk 1/Factotum 17/Mindbender 1

Feats:
Vow of Poverty (Chaos Shuffled away at level 20 for 11 extra feats, otherwise don't take)
Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Int to HP)
Kung Fu Genius (Int to Monk abilities)
Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)
Shadow Blade
Weapon Finesse
Snap Kick
Craven
Darkstalker
Superior Unarmed Strike
Mindsight
Keen Intellect
Font of Inspiration 12 times (78 additional IP)

---
Every time you take an attack action you gain an unarmed strike thanks to snap kick. With 4 IP spent on each attack you gain Int to attack and damage on both of them along with 3d6 sneak attack and +20 damage from craven on both attacks. Use Cunning Surge to make 11 of those in a round (and one for Wraithstrike so that they are all touch attacks).

Even when you can't sneak attack you still get the two attacks with +Int to Attack and Damage on each.

Is it the best? No, but it gives you what you want and lets you fill lots of other possible roles thanks to Factotum.

The only attributes that you need to worry about are Int and Dex, which should be 36 and 32 (18/17 base with 11 Str) at level 20.

Use a +3 Tome to get your strength up to 10 (and probably to improve your 4 Con as well, although that is less important).

[Jett Midknight]

Monks are both proficient with Quarterstaffs and Unarmed Strike, although they are a really underpowered class. That being said I also find them really fun, so it comes down to if you like power of flavor.

[Emperor Tippy]

Monks are both proficient with Quarterstaffs and Unarmed Strike, although they are a really underpowered class. That being said I also find them really fun, so it comes down to if you like power of flavor.

No, technically Monks aren't proficient with Unarmed Strikes.

[Jett Midknight]

No, technically Monks aren't proficient with Unarmed Strikes.

Ah, my mistake. They are just really good at hitting things with their fists

[eggynack]

Ah, my mistake. They are just really good at hitting things with their fists
No, technically speaking they're terrible at hitting things with their fists. Tippy was just being pedantic, because they're inexplicably listed without unarmed strike proficiency. I don't think anyone really plays that way.

[Jett Midknight]

No, technically speaking they're terrible at hitting things with their fists. Tippy was just being pedantic, because they're inexplicably listed without unarmed strike proficiency. I don't think anyone really plays that way.

Sorry, all the intricacies of the rules are lost on me. I'm used to playing casually. What would the difference be if they were given Unarmed Strike proficiency?

[eggynack]

Sorry, all the intricacies of the rules are lost on me. I'm used to playing casually. What would the difference be if they were given Unarmed Strike proficiency?
Well, you take a -4 on attack rolls. It's not relevant to real play, because no one really plays as though they lack unarmed strike proficiency, because that'd be crazy. I'm saying that they're terrible at punching folks, even with unarmed strike proficiency. You can optimize the hell out of them, and they do alright in that case, but they tend to be absolutely awful at everything if you don't.

[Emperor Tippy]

Sorry, all the intricacies of the rules are lost on me. I'm used to playing casually. What would the difference be if they were given Unarmed Strike proficiency?

Not taking -4 to every attack roll made with their Unarmed Strike.

[nedz]

Sorry, all the intricacies of the rules are lost on me. I'm used to playing casually. What would the difference be if they were given Unarmed Strike proficiency?

Everyone who plays Monks assume that they have Unarmed Strike proficiency — it's just common sense — but Unarmed Strike is not listed under their weapon proficiencies in the PH/SRD. In any real game it should make no difference whatsoever.

[Jett Midknight]

Well, you take a -4 on attack rolls. It's not relevant to real play, because no one really plays as though they lack unarmed strike proficiency, because that'd be crazy. I'm saying that they're terrible at punching folks, even with unarmed strike proficiency. You can optimize the hell out of them, and they do alright in that case, but they tend to be absolutely awful at everything if you don't.

Wow, seriously? That's awful. I guess whenever I DMed people who played Monks I just assumed Monks were proficient with their main attack

[Emperor Tippy]

Wow, seriously? That's awful. I guess whenever I DMed people who played Monks I just assumed Monks were proficient with their main attack

Virtually everyone makes that same assumption.

[eggynack]

Wow, seriously? That's awful. I guess whenever I DMed people who played Monks I just assumed Monks were proficient with their main attack
You should just continue doing that. It's basically a universal house rule. I can't even really imagine a table where it wouldn't be in place. Monks suck nearly all the time, so you're really really far from taking balance from the game by throwing them a bone.

[nedz]

It's one of the more famous of a small number of 350+ Rules Dysfunctions. Basically it's a compulsory house-rule.

[Xervous]

There is also the option of the monk who gets wisdom to lots of things (man I'm really hooked on this one...)

monk gives you wisdom to AC
Intuitive Attack (feat) from BoED gets you wisdom in place of strength for attack rolls with natural and simple weapons (unarmed strikes and quarterstaves for example)

1 level of shiba protector from OA gets you wisdom to attacks and damage on top of this.

2 levels of paladin and the feat Serenity from dragon compendium get you wisdom to all saves.

Pick up the saint template if you want even more AC, because it gives you wisdom to that again...

Pack on some dex to go with your maxed out wisdom and you should make a decent scout, not to mention you do fine in combat. Your touch AC will simply read "NO", your saves will be a minimum of good (will save is "LOL NOPE"), your standard AC might actually give higher level monsters pause, and you actually have a little bit of oomph in the damage department.

for added silliness, you can pick up two weapon fighting, wield your quarterstaff and flurry with snap kick. At later levels this will generate upwards of seven attacks on a full attack, most with a decent chance of hitting.

[Metahuman1]

Hmm, ok, So i've got Wis SAD and Int SAD builds, which is neat. How might I work in some martial maneuvers for some extra tricks?

And how might I work in access to some key druid spells and the sorcerers ever awesome greater mighty wallop to boost the weapons damage out put?

[Callin]

If you want to toss in Maneuvers just play the Unarmed Swordsage Variant.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think there was a Familiar ACF that let's you enchant a staff with special abilities in one of the dragons magazines. A nice feat was designed to go with the ACF that lets the wielder add their Wisdom to damage instead of strength with their imbued staff. It costs a couple feats, and may require a dip in a class that grants familiar, but it dovetails well with the Shiba Protector Setup (especially if you're only dipping a little Shiba Protector). The main problem is getting the familiar.

I'm sure that someone else can iron out the details. It seems that the ACF is called Imbued Staff, and I believe it's Dragon Mag 338. It might be hard to get both Wisdom synergy, arcane casting, and these feats into the same build.

Anyway, the Imbued Staff can make for a pretty awesome staff.

[questionmark693]

If I wanted that build, I'd take a level of monk and go swordsage. Take the feats weapon finesse, the one in ToB that gives you Dex to damage when using a Shadow Hand favored weapon (including unarmed strike) and then go from there.