Choosing Spells for a Sublime Chord

[Nettlekid]

In a low Epic (level 21, and no Epic Spellcasting) campaign I'm going to be in, I'm going to be an airship captain whose basis is Bard, going into Sublime Chord and then progressing it with Virtuoso. Because I'm known in my group for often optimizing, I thought a Half-Elf Bard was a silly choice that would make people drop their guard...before I leap at them with 9th level spells. However, being a Sublime Chord, I have the agony of choice between all Bard and Sorcerer/Wizard spells with so few spells known. I'd prefer not to buy Runestaffs and things, so what I pick is what I stick with. I want a nice and balanced spell list that would help me in combat and out-of-combat, keep me safe, and let me remain a dominant figure of power in this world. I'm going to be the only actual caster in the party, but I am allowed to have a Cleric cohort who won't come with the party but will be able to fill in a lot of the buffing requirements, like Energy Immunity and Astral Projection, so I won't have to take things like that.

This is my spell list so far. I know we'll be dealing with a lot of Dragons, but I don't want to take Shivering Touch because that's just too cheap. I'm a bit worried I have too many mind-affecting spells, but because many of my bardic abilities are also mind-affecting, I'd prefer to find some way to get rid of another creature's Mind Blank rather than not use any mind-affecting spells myself. (And I don't think a UMD/UPD item of Shatter Mind Blank would work.)

0: Prestidigitation, Summon Instrument, Ghost Sound, Open/Close, Light, Message
1: Improvisation, Inspirational Boost, Amplify, Cure Light Wounds
2: Alter Self, Dark Way, Entice Gift, Reveille
3: Glibness, Haste, Puppeteer
4: Orb of Force, Repair Critical Damage, Celerity, Assay Spell Resistance
5: Draconic Polymorph, Arcane Fusion, Wall of Stone, Greater Dispel Magic
6: Geas, Antimagic Field, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Contingency
7: Avasculate, Hide From Dragons, Greater Teleport, Reverse Gravity
8: Polymorph Any Object, Greater Arcane Fusion, Greater Plane Shift
9: Shapechange, Programmed Amnesia

[Talya]

Entice Gift

Replace that with Suggestion. Suggestion can do everything Entice Gift can, and more. Same spell level. Plus Suggestion is actually on the bard list. (Of course, I'm not particularly keen on using a precious spell slot on something you can already do with bardic music, even if less conveniently.)



4: Orb of Force

Odd choice. The lack of status effect makes this my least favorite of the orb spells, but ... it's still SR: No, and it has fewer resistant/immune creatures (including dealing with incorporeality), so I can understand it. I just tend to think I'd go Orb of [Energy] and grab Energy Substitution.

Repair Critical Damage
I assume this is for your airship?

I have comments on some others, but I'll get to them later.

[Nettlekid]

Replace that with Suggestion. Suggestion can do everything Entice Gift can, and more. Same spell level. Plus Suggestion is actually on the bard list. (Of course, I'm not particularly keen on using a precious spell slot on something you can already do with bardic music, even if less conveniently.)

Good call. I didn't put a huge amount of thought into the lower level spells, so there are going to be definitely better choices than the ones I picked. I don't actually have Suggestion in my Bardic repertoire, as I gave it up for Song of the Heart as per something in the ECS.


Odd choice. The lack of status effect makes this my least favorite of the orb spells, but ... it's still SR: No, and it has fewer resistant/immune creatures (including dealing with incorporeality), so I can understand it. I just tend to think I'd go Orb of [Energy] and grab Energy Substitution.

Yeah, I went with this because I didn't want it resisted. Because I'm going against Dragons, with enormous saves, I thought that damage reliability overruled rider effects. I have plenty of other debuff-ish spells that I'd use for status, so if I'm using an Orb I want to deal damage. The longer range is also good for me.


I assume this is for your airship?

Yeah, just to be safe. Probably don't need it, so if there's a much better use of a 4th level spell known, that'll be the one to go. But it made sense, flavor-wise, for a captain to be able to fix up his ship.


Some other spells that might need explanation are:
Geas. I know it's difficult to use well, but the no HD limit and no save is great, in my mind. I plan to use False Theurgy after maybe an difficult agreement, saying "Why don't we all sit around a nice Heroes Feast and discuss this further?" 10 minute casting time later, they're under my thumb.

Avasculate. Solid damage, for when I need to drain a lot of HP. This also has a nice rider effect, which isn't the focus but I'd rather have it on here than Orb of Fire.

Reverse Gravity. This is just fun, and I could imagine it being a very effective no save, get you where I want you sort of ability. I need to think of a way to use it effectively against a winged dragon, though. Maybe patches of regular gravity scattered among the reverse gravity, to mess up how it would fly?

Programmed Amnesia. Similar to Geas, but larger scale. Might considering it's one of my only two 9th level spells, it might not be worth it. I'd kind of like to use Geas and make people fail their save against Programmed Amnesia, then rewrite their memories to make them my ally forever.

But like I said, I'm open to changing a lot of it.


On another note, is there any way to either get my Sublime Chord spells to at least count as Divine, or get what would count as a (geez) 15th level spell slot? I have 14 Rebuke Fire Elemental attempts and 15 uses of Bardic Music that I would love to turn into Persistent spells, but DMM needs divine spells (assuming Rebuke Fire Elementals even counts for it) and Metamagic Song needs you to be able to cast a spell of the level the spell would normally be. I'd love to be able to have a Persisted Shapechange, to go all Beast Boy when the chips are down.

[Nettlekid]

Managed to get my DM to waive the requirement for being a Mulan Human for Southern Magician (he said that if an ancestor of mine was a Mulan Human it would work, and I'm a half-elf), so now I can DMM Shapechange and one other spell. I'm thinking Greater Blink, just because it's pretty useful. But now all my other 9th level spell slots will be used on the other spell I have, so Programmed Amnesia is probably a little too niche-y to work.

[lsfreak]

I am of the opinion every sorcerer/sorcerer-like list should include Limited Wish, because it gets you access to Psychic Reformation. Rechoosing all your spells is just too good to pass up.

[Talya]

I am of the opinion every sorcerer/sorcerer-like list should include Limited Wish, because it gets you access to Psychic Reformation. Rechoosing all your spells is just too good to pass up.

It's also a relatively cheap method of casting just about any lower level spell you need for emergencies.

[Stillplaying]

Are you playing primarily on the Prime Material or will you be wandering about the Planes?

[Nettlekid]

Eugh, that XP cost, though. I'm so stingy with XP. Although, my DM prefers to do away with XP, and instead level us up whenever the story suggests we should level up and then have a 5 GP=1 XP conversion for things like XP-based casting or LA buyoff. So I guess for 1500 GP, that's not too harsh. But using it for Psychic Reformation (which I'm not sure flies) would be pretty costly. I'd prefer to get my spells right the first time around.

Oh, and almost entirely on the Material. In fact, in this campaign there will be two Material planes, so we'll need to switch back and forth between them, but won't have to deal with a lot of planar effects. Did you have a better use in mind for that 8th level spell known, because I have other methods for Plane Shift.

Hey, what is the best way to use Time Stop? I mean, I guess you could take a round or two to buff, but it's pretty easy to get all the buffs you want on most of the time, if not all the time. And you can't hurt others. What do you do with it?

[Svata]

Set up delayed blast fireballs, buff, get to somewhere you can kill the enemy without dying, etc...

[A_S]

Have you checked with your DM about Greater Arcane Fusion's legality? It's a Sorc spell, not a Sorc/Wiz spell, which by my reading means you can't pick it as a Sublime Chord. On top of that, the spell description explicitly says the two spells you fuse with it have to be Sorc spells; I read that as "spells you know as a Sorc," though an argument could be made for "spells that are on the Sorc spell list." All in all, definitely not a given that you could pick it and make it work.

As for other suggestions:

Ruin Delver's Fortune is one of my favorite spells in the game.
Do you really expect to be casting Geas often enough to spend a spell known on it?
If you're starting at level 21, I probably wouldn't bother taking both Draconic Polymorph and Shapechange; pick one and use it.
If your DM rules that Moment of Prescience applies to Initiative checks, it's hard to beat MoP+Foresight for good ol' always-go-first cheese.

[Talya]

Ruin Delver's Fortune is one of my favorite spells in the game.

So much, this.


Do you really expect to be casting Geas often enough to spend a spell known on it?
If you're starting at level 21, I probably wouldn't bother taking both Draconic Polymorph and Shapechange; pick one and use it.

Both things I was thinking and didn't get back to. In the latter case, make your spell PAO. I don't like the specific polymorph spells. You can't introduce new spells that sorta suck and hope people take them instead of the overpowered spells that you want them to replace...

[A_S]

I don't like the specific polymorph spells. You can't introduce new spells that sorta suck and hope people take them instead of the overpowered spells that you want them to replace...

Although I agree in general, Draconic Polymorph isn't an example of that; it's strictly better than regular Polymorph, aside from being one spell level higher. I don't really know what's "draconic" about it; I guess maybe the improved Str/Con of your assumed form are because you're polymorphing into a draconic version of the target creature? But in that case I wonder why they didn't just use the Draconic template.

*edit* Oops, I didn't notice it's Personal rather than Touch. So, not quite strictly better. Still, the increased HD cap is nice.

[danzibr]

I'm huge fan of Evard's Tentacles and its fiery and negative energyey forms.

[Nettlekid]

I guess you're right about Geas, although I do think it's cool. Cooler than just to have a scroll or two of it lying around, but you're right, that's probably more useful. I'd like to have at least one spell per level that I could imagine using all my spell slots for, or else it wastes those spells per day.

As far as the polymorphing, I'm dropping Draconic Polymorph and managing to persist Shapechange, so not only does that free up the 5th level slot from Draconic Polymorph but also frees up things like Greater Plane Shift and Greater Teleport, since I can Shapechange into things with those. I'm keeping PaO though, because I love the ability to turn...anything into anything.

Ruin Delver's Fortune is pretty good. I'm just concerned about using up 4th level spell slots, because I do love Celerity and want to use it often.

And yeah, I'm not sure about Arcane Fusion and it's greater form, so I'll scrap those.

So this is my spell list now.

0:Prestidigitation, Summon Instrument, Ghost Sound, Open/Close, Light, Message
1:Improvisation, Nystul's Magic Aura, Amplify, Cure Light Wounds
2:Alter Self, Dark Way, Suggestion, Reveille
3:Glibness, Puppeteer, Sculpt Sound (I have Boots of Haste now)
4:Orb of Force, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Celerity, Assay Spell Resistance
5:Greater Blink, Wall of Stone, Hide From Dragons, __________
6:Geas(?), Otto's Irresistible Dance, Contingency, _________
7:Avasculate, Reverse Gravity, __________, ___________
8:Polymorph Any Object, _________, __________
9:Shapechange, Time Stop

So now I have quite a few spaces open, and I'm really not sure what to put in there.

[Talya]

I played a sorcerer for 5 years in a campaign, and my 4th level slots were by far my most heavily used. Ruin Delver's Fortune, Assay Spell Resistance, and Orb of {Energy.}

That said, my 5th level slots were underutilized, and so I ended up just using them to cast 4th level spells a lot.

[Nettlekid]

Okay, made some tweaks. Tell me if these are bad ideas.

In the 5th level slot, I put Cloudkill, because it's nice that it will always do Con damage, and it'll be good for clearing out dungeon rooms. I also have a fun image of warping into a Dragon's stomach, using Cloudkill, and then getting out of there.

For the 6th level slot I put Freezing Fog, because that's been a really helpful BC spell for me in the past.

For the 7th level slots I took your advice and took Limited Wish, because even if I don't plan to use Psychic Reformation, the versatility of any 6th level spell for the cost of 1500 gold isn't bad. I won't use it often, but when I need to, I'll want it. And then the other one I took was Greater Arcane Sight, which I plan to Persist (instead of Greater Blink, which I'll still have, just not persisted). It'll be great for telling me if someone has Mind Blank (because I guess nothing will show up, so it's conspicuous by its absence) and lets me know I'll need to do something about it.

For the 8th level slots I took Moment of Prescience, because that can be a lifesaver, and Greater Prying Eyes. The duration and number of eyes will make it great for scouting, and again, if I tell them to come back if they see a monster, but I don't see a monster when I review what they've seen, I'll know there was a creature with Mind Blank there.

And finally, I swapped out Time Stop for...geez, I can't believe I'm saying this, but Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Now, of course, I'll be smart about using it. Use it only on lootless monsters, like many dragons who'll have a pile of treasure off to the side but won't be wearing a lot. It's the only way I can think of to reliably get rid of Mind Blank, and level the playing field. Now, is there a good way to steal magic items from people while they're wearing them? It would be nice if I could steal their items and then MDJ with impunity.

[Draz74]

Ugh, Sublime Chords get so few spells ... it's downright painful choosing which ones to keep!


I know we'll be dealing with a lot of Dragons, but I don't want to take Shivering Touch because that's just too cheap.
IIRC, you can't actually take Shivering Touch anyway -- Sublime Chord only lets you access Sorc/Wiz-list spells of Level 4+.


Replace that with Suggestion. Suggestion can do everything Entice Gift can, and more. Same spell level. Plus Suggestion is actually on the bard list.
Consider Voice of the Dragon (SpC) instead. Gives you a large bonus to social skills as an hours-per-level buff, then you can expend it to gain a Suggestion effect when needed.


In the 5th level slot, I put Cloudkill, because it's nice that it will always do Con damage, and it'll be good for clearing out dungeon rooms. I also have a fun image of warping into a Dragon's stomach, using Cloudkill, and then getting out of there.
I've never been a fan. A couple points of CON damage don't help as much as you think they will; and the way the cloud moves around without your control in an open space is a pain. And lots of things are immune to poison.


For the 6th level slot I put Freezing Fog, because that's been a really helpful BC spell for me in the past.

For the 7th level slots I took your advice and took Limited Wish, because even if I don't plan to use Psychic Reformation, the versatility of any 6th level spell for the cost of 1500 gold isn't bad. I won't use it often, but when I need to, I'll want it.
These are good choices.


And then the other one I took was Greater Arcane Sight, which I plan to Persist (instead of Greater Blink, which I'll still have, just not persisted). It'll be great for telling me if someone has Mind Blank (because I guess nothing will show up, so it's conspicuous by its absence) and lets me know I'll need to do something about it.
Nice. It's a powerful spell effect, but I never manage to fit it into my builds (mostly since normal Arcane Sight has most of the same benefits and is much much cheaper to make permanent). Props to you for fitting it in.

[Nettlekid]

Funnily enough, I'm actually having trouble filling up all my spells known. If I had more spells known then it would be easier to just toss them all in, but because I know I have a limited list, I need to be clever about what I pick.

If I had really wanted Shivering Touch I probably could have spent a 4th (or even 5th) level spell known for it, but I'd prefer not to.

Voice of the Dragon is quite good for the buffs, but it's a precious 4th level spell, and that level has some of the best ones. Celerity, Orb of X, Assay Spell Resistance, Ruin Delver's Fortune, etc. Besides, I'm not gasping for Level 2 spells known anyway. I'll keep the magical Suggestion for when I need the full duration, but I'm planning to use Epic Bluffs when I just need little things.

You're right, poison is pretty well resisted at high levels. I was so blinded by "hurts even on the made save" that I didn't pay attention to that. I need a good 5th level spell. I kind of like Phantasmal Thief. Maybe? What are other good 5th levels?

And you're right, it might just be better to get a Permanencied Arcane Sight rather than a full Greater Arcane Sight. My first thought was that I wanted to see if my enemies had Mind Blank on them, and GAS would tell me that. But then I realized that Mind Blank would cause GAS to return "Nope, they've got nothing. Are you sure they're even there?" and so I'd know it was Mind Blank that way. But I now realize, regular AS would do that too. So maybe GAS isn't worth the 7th level slot.

[Nettlekid]

Made a couple of replacements. Here is my new new new list.

0:Prestidigitation, Summon Instrument, Detect Magic, Open/Close, Light, Message
1:Improvisation, Nystul's Magic Aura, Amplify, Cure Light Wounds
2:Alter Self, Dark Way, Suggestion, Reveille
3:Glibness, Puppeteer, Sculpt Sound
4:Orb of Force, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Celerity, Assay Spell Resistance
5:Greater Blink, Wall of Stone, Wall of Force, Hide From Dragons
6:Geas, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Contingency, Freezing Fog
7:Avasculate, Reverse Gravity, Control Weather, Limited Wish
8:Polymorph Any Object, Moment of Prescience, Greater Prying Eyes
9:Shapechange, Mordenkainen's Disjunction

I know that Wall of Stone and Wall of Force have quite a large overlap, so maybe that's not a very good idea. But I think that their differences could both prove useful. Since Wall of Stone lasts forever and can be shaped, it has greater versatility than Wall of Force and could be used in exploring, not just battles. Meanwhile, Wall of Force is totally unbreakable no matter the Strength score, which might be worth it against powerful dragons.

I still have Geas up there because I like it, and I can't think of what I'd prefer to have. I kind of want to add Project Image, and I would if it was 7th level for me (as it is for Sorc/Wiz), but it's 6th level for Bards (and Sublime Chord goes with Bard level if there's a difference) and I don't know if I want Project Image more than I want Geas.

I added Control Weather because part of the campaign is based on exploration, and I am an airship captain after all. Being able to control the nearby weather will be very helpful, I think. But it's kind of niche-y, and if there's a much better use for that 7th level spell known, I'd probably switch it out.

[Grim Reader]

Ugh, Sublime Chords get so few spells ... it's downright painful choosing which ones to keep!

I am a fan of sneaking in a level of Sand Shaper before going Sublime Chord. Forty-odd bonus spells known and no hit to SC casting progression.

[CRtwenty]

I'm a big fan of taking the Shadow line of Illusions, like Greater Shadow Evocation, Shades, Greater Shadow Conjuration and such, since you basically get a whole bunch of spells for the cost of one. They've always seemed like the perfect fit for a Sublime Chord.

[Grim Reader]

At the very least, get in a summoning spell. You can summon creatures with abilities you lack.

[Spuddles]

No Teleport? Overland Flight? Phantom Steed?

I know you may not be casting more than 2 of those a day, but they are so so so good. And Teleport spam is awesome for moving big parties or traveling to the moon.

[Nettlekid]

I'm unsure about Summons because my DM is getting rid of most of the outer planes, so demons and devils may be unavailable.

I'm persisting Shapechange, so I have all the Teleports and most other utility spells I need.

[Spuddles]

I'm unsure about Summons because my DM is getting rid of most of the outer planes, so demons and devils may be unavailable.

I'm persisting Shapechange, so I have all the Teleports and most other utility spells I need.

What form gets you Teleport?

[Nettlekid]

Any Archon gives you Greater Teleport at will as an Su ability, and something called a Bar-lgura allows you to take others with you.

[Spuddles]

Oh yeah, totally forgot about the Archon subtype. Baller.

[Draz74]

I'm persisting Shapechange, so I have all the Teleports and most other utility spells I need the rest of my spell list selection really doesn't matter much at all.

Fixed that for you. :smallwink:

[Nettlekid]

Haha, yeah, that's what makes me more comfortable with picking potentially suboptimal spells that I like the look of, like Geas. Still, there are certain effects (like Celerity, as always) that Shapechange either can't imitate or imitates ineffectively, and so I'd want those in my repertoire.

[Nettlekid]

I think I'll replace Control Weather with Arcane Spellsurge, and go the Invisible Spellsurge route for action economy. I've asked my DM things, and he's letting Invisible Spell work in all the best ways. For example, when I have an Invisible Shapechange persisted, I will always appear to be my normal form (except to a creature with See Invisibility or True Seeing) but I will in fact be different forms. Which is quite excellent. He's also said that Invisible Invisibility will make me visible to non-True Seers, but invisible to True Seers.

What are some other good, fun spells to combo with Invisible Spell? Definitely planning to use Wall of Stone a lot now.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

I do suggest the shades and shadow spells. However, shapechange lets you have so many spells, here are some possibilities:

Wonder how this would work:

Invisible Illusionary Pit. They don't see the fake pit, but their body subliminally realizes they're falling! But then they realize it's a normal floor! Illusion-ception!

Invisible Irresistible Dance. They look like they are standing still, but are actually dancing. Conjure an invisible mirror with Shadow conjuration and have the reflected light really confuse them.

Invisible Fell Orb of Force or something like that. Good for diplomacy; wave your hand at someone, they fall over and suddenly turn into a zombie.

[Menzath]

In my opinion Hide from dragons seems a little too.. specialized.
Also Contingency is for people who never prepare. does have some uses but tends to be the lazy way out.
AFB, i'll look up spells that are awesome later.

[Nettlekid]

Hide From Dragons is there because it's a dragon campaign, so it's kind of cheating to take it, but it's something that will definitely be useful for me.

Honestly, I agree, Contingency seems...I dunno, I can only ever imagine using Contingency to activate Celerity if I'm about to be killed. But if I can Shapechange into an Elemental Weird to use Foresight, and then not be flat-footed, I can use Celerity anyway. So yeah, I might leave Contingency.

[Inuzuka]

It's not a spell, but if I can make a suggestion, the Windsinger feat (http://dndtools.eu/feats/stormwrack--87/windsinger--3201/) would fit pretty well with your character story wise.

[3WhiteFox3]

Hide From Dragons is there because it's a dragon campaign, so it's kind of cheating to take it, but it's something that will definitely be useful for me.

Honestly, I agree, Contingency seems...I dunno, I can only ever imagine using Contingency to activate Celerity if I'm about to be killed. But if I can Shapechange into an Elemental Weird to use Foresight, and then not be flat-footed, I can use Celerity anyway. So yeah, I might leave Contingency.

Contingencies are for that one time that something goes horribly wrong. Look at Ravingdork's post here on the Paizo forums (the first one after the OP) to see a good one. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p548?What-spells-should-a-high-level-caster-ALWAYS#2) It's for pathfinder, but it works the same way in 3.5.