Sell Sword (Mundane 3.5 Base Class) (WIP) [Archive]

undead hero

2013-06-02, 10:05 PM

Sell Sword

"Throw copper my way and I have your back in a bar brawl, throw silver my way and a common man is dead, throw enough gold my way and I'll take out a king."

-Khrin, Sell Sword of Waterdeep

Alignment: Any, most Sell Swords tend to favor the Lawful Alignments and there are about equal number of Good and Evil Sell Swords.

Hit Die: d10

Starting Gold: 200 GP

Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int Mod) X4
Skill Points every other Level: (4 + Int Mod)

Class Skills: The Sell Sword's Skills are as follows.

Balance (dex), Bluff (cha), Climb (str), Craft (int), Decipher Script (int), Diplomacy (cha), Disguise (cha), Escape Artist (dex), Forgery (int), Gather Information (cha), Heal (wis), Hide (dex), Intimidate (cha), Jump (str), Knowledge (Geography) (int), Knowledge (Local) (int), Listen (wis), Move Silently (dex), Profession (wis), Ride (dex), Sense Motive (wis), Speak Language, Spot (wis), Survival (wis), Swim (str), and Tumble (dex).

Armor Proficiency: Light Armor, Medium Armor, Light Shields, Heavy Shields.

Weapon Proficiency:All Simple and Martial Weapons.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Sell Sword, Stances, Repair Kit

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus Feat, Rapid Metabolism

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Poison Use, Track

4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus Feat

5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Trackless Step, Create Poison

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Bonus Feat

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Leadership

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus Feat

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Sell Sword Movement

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Improved Stances, Bonus Feat

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3| Sell Sword Resistance

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus Feat

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Steal Heart

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus Feat

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Greater Stances

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus Feat

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Steal Heart (Improved)

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus Feat

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Leadership (Improved)

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Perfect Stances, Bonus Feat

[/table]

{table=head]
Sell Sword Stances
{table=head]Level | Stances Known | Stances Activated
1st |
2 |
1 |
2nd |
2 |
1 |
3rd |
3 |
1 |
4th |
3 |
1 |
5th |
4 |
2 |
6th |
4 |
2 |
7th |
5 |
2 |
8th |
5 |
2 |
9th |
6 |
3 |
10th |
6 |
3 |
11th |
7 |
3 |
12th |
7 |
3 |
13th |
8 |
4 |
14th |
8 |
4 |
15th |
9 |
4 |
16th |
9 |
4 |
17th |
10 |
5 |
18th |
10 |
5 |
19th |
11 |
5 |
20th |
12 |
6 |
[/table][/table]

Class Features

Sell Sword: You are branded a Sell Sword, a man for hire. When negotiating a contract you always get [Sell Sword Level * 3%] more money for your services. Even the most greedy and evil will pay this higher wage since they know they will get their gold's worth.

Total increase at level 20 is 60%.

Note: This increase is to the total worth of the contract thus all party members share in the increase.

Stances (Ex)

Stances Known: Due to your training you have learned a series of physical and mental abilities. The Sell Sword learns a number of stances based on his level as shown in the table above. At 10th level the numerical values to ability scores increase by +2. At 15th level the numerical values to ability scores increase by +4. At 20th level the numerical bonuses to ability scores increase by +6.

Example: Empowered Stance
1st Level: +4 to Strength
10th Level: +6 to Strength
15th Level: +8 to Strength
20th Level: +10 to Strength

Stances Activated: This is the number of stances a sell sword can have activat with a swift action. The Sell Sword may switch stances as a swift action (changing to any stance the Sell Sword knows) any number times per day.

Bonus Feats (Ex): Choose a feat that you meet the requirements for. You may reselect these feats after 6 hours of sleep and 1 hour of practice. For the purposes of meeting requirements you may add 1/2 your Sell Sword level to your mental scores to determine if you meet the prerequisites.

A 6th level Sell Sword with 10 Intelligence may select feats that require "Intelligence 13" when selecting bonus feats.

The Sell Sword may take feats that her Stances give her the prerequisite feat. Thus a Sell Sword with the Archery Stance can take the feat "Many Shot". However the Sell Sword can't use "Many Shot" unless the Archery Stance is activated. (If I need to explain this better then please let me know)

Rapid Metabolism: Sell Swords keep their bodies at peak physical condition and tend to heal faster than most. The Sell Swords gains the feat "Rapid Metabolism" as a bonus feat at 2nd level. The hit points gained by this feat return to the Sell Sword one minute before midnight even if he isn't resting.

Use Poison (Ex): You may apply poison to any item without any chance of poisoning yourself.

Track (Ex): Gain bonus feat "Track" and Survival is always a class skill for you.

Create Poison (Ex): You can create poisons at a reduced cost as long as you have the components to do so. (fix later)

Trackless Step (Ex): You can't be tracked via your footsteps or via scent ability. This also negates scent from finding you in combat.

Leadership (Ex): Gain a level 4 Cohort (Any class that doesn't gain full casting, including classes like Binder) who may never become higher than your [Sell Sword Level - 1]. Your cohort must be within one step of your alignment. No cohort can have a leadership or leadership like ability.

Leadership (Improved) (Ex): As the Leadership class feature. The Sell Sword gains 4 additional cohorts, however the Cohorts you gain are the same level as the Cohort you currently have. These cohorts can be of any class that doesn't gain full casting (including classes like the Binder). No cohort can have a leadership or leadership like ability.

Sell Sword Speed (Ex): Constant Freedom of Movement.

Resistance (Ex): Your Mind and Body have been trained to withstand magic thrown your way. You gain SR equal to 13 + Sell Sword Level.

Steal Heart (Ex): You have become a minor legend. Once per day in a city (or local region) you can use your ability to Charm a creature that would normally be attracted to you. The target gains a Will Save with a DC equal to 10 + Sell Sword Level. If the target fails the save then they are [Fascinated] by you for 24 hours. At level 17 the target is considered [Dominated] instead of [Fascinated]. (this is mostly for LOL but come on, you must admit this is highly realistic... Got to seduce the prince/princesss or even the bartender or bar wench!)

====

Special thanks to WyvernLord for supplying fantastic fluff!

Cause god knows I'm horrible at it. :smallannoyed:

undead hero

2013-06-02, 10:06 PM

Stances

Basic Stances

Empowered Stance

+4 Strength or +4 Dexterity.
Special: This does not stack with any other ability score increase from Sell Sword stances.

Maximized Stance

-4 Attack/+100% Damage

Stance of Mercy

While in this stance, all damage is Non-Lethal.

Dirty Stance

While the Sell Sword is in this stance the Sell Sword fights dirty. One creature per round when hit with a weapon (natural, unarmed, or manufactured) by the Sell Sword must make a Fort Save DC 10 + Weapon Damage Dealt (original damage) or be Dazed, Blinded, Slowed, Sickened, Deafened, or Silenced (chose one before the attack roll is made) for 1 round. If the Sell Sword has iterative attacks then he must declare the Dirty Attack before each attack roll that he decides to perform a Dirty Trick. Any damage to the target is at -50% (this doesn't reduce the Fort Save DC).

Special: At level 10 the Sell Sword may target 2 creatures, at level 15 the Sell Sword may target 3 creatures, and at 20th level the Sell Sword may target 4 creatures.

"Meh, so I fight dirty. I got the job done so what do you care?"

Diplomatic Posture

The Sell Sword has learned to look nonthreatening. While in this stance the Sell Sword gains a -4 Attack/-50% Damage/+4 Diplomacy

Intimidating Posture

The Sell Sword knows that sometimes the best way to be intimidating means to not be in the the correct fighting position. While in this stance the Sell Sword takes -4 Attack/-50% Damage/ +4 Intimidate.

Special: May demoralize as a move action.

Opening Stance

While in this stance the Sell Sword opens up his defenses to gain the attention of an enemy. This is not a mind effecting ability. *Needs Updated*

Skillful Posture

The Sell Sword knows that fighting isn't the only answer to a job. While in this stance the Sell Sword gains the following feats. Open Minded, X4 (20 Skill Points). These extra skill points only go toward physical ability skills (Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity based Skills) and disappear when the Sell Sword isn't in the Skillful Posture.

Note: The Sell Sword can't go over the maximum skill ranks for each skill (Level + 3 for Class Skills) (Level +3/2 for Cross Class Skills) then using this Posture.

Advance Stances

Impervious Stance

While in this stance the Sell Sword gains the following feats as bonus feats. Steadfast Determination, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude. The Sell Sword also gains Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and Mettle. Te Sell Sword gains a +4 Con while in this stance.

Battle Veteran Stance

While in this stance the Sell Sword gains a +4 to Constitution and Gains the following feats as bonus feats. Endurance, Die Hard, Blind Fight, Weapon Focus (any), Weapon Specialization (any), and Improved Toughness.

Mobility Stance

While in this stance the Sell Sword gains a +4 Dexterity and gains the following feats as bonus feats. Skill Focus (Tumble), Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack and Shot on the Run.

Bull Stance

While in this stance the Sell Sword gains a +4 Strength, Powerful Build, Dungeon Crasher Fighter ACF and the feat Improved Bullrush feat.

Power Stance

While in this stance the Sell Sword Gains the following feats as bonus feats. Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and Improved Bullrush. The Sell Sword also gains a +4 to Strength.

Slayer Stance

While in this stance the Sell Sword Gains the following feats as bonus feats. Blind Fight, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, and Pierce Magical Protection.The Sell Sword also gains a +4 to Constitution.

Primal Stance

While in this stance the Sell Sword gains Pounce and Scent along with the feats Skill Focus (Listen) and Skill Focus (Intimidate). The Sell Sword also gains a +4 to Strength.

Fluid Form Stance

While in this stance the Sell Sword gains the following feats. Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting.The Sell Sword also gains a +2 to Strength and +2 to Dexterity.

Monk Stance

While in this stance the Sell Sword uses unarmed martial arts to destroy their opponents. The Sell Sword gains the following feats while in this stance. Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Improved Grapple, Snatch Arrows, and Stunning Fist. The Sell Sword also gains Flurry of Blows. The Sell Sword also gains a +4 to Strength or Dexterity.

Special: A Sell Sword’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a Sell Sword may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a Sell Sword striking unarmed. A Sell Sword may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes. Also the Sell Sword gains the monk's unarmed damage bonus.

All abilities take the Sell Sword Level = Monk Level for effectiveness.

Note: ok ok so this one is just to spite the monk class....

Archer's Stance

While in this stance the Sell Sword gains the following feats. Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot On The Run. The Sell Sword also gains a +4 to Dexterity.

"Yeah I'm the Sell Sword you hired. What? What do you mean "why do I have a bow".

Deceptive Stance

"The man who is standing in front of you is striking quick. His movements are hard to predict and he smiles at you. As you move to block him his blade shifts and moves high. The blade cuts your forehead leaving blood coming down clouding your vision. His smile hurts your pride more then the sword hurt you. Your strikes are wilder and he just keeps landing hits..."

~WyvernLord

While in this stance the Sell Sword gains the following feats. Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Improve Feint, Pack Feint, and Skill Focus (Bluff). The Sell Sword also gains a +4 to Strength.

Special: When you make an AoO on a creature you may also (as part of the same action) make a Bluff check to feint.

==============
*NOTE* Completely still working on this. I need a lot of editing on the fluff and mechanics.

So I think I figured out what I want the difference between Basic Stances and Advance Stances to be.

Basic Stance: They give numerical bonuses only. This will be bonuses like bonus skill points, bonus damage, bonus to attack, penalty to damage, penalty to attack, and the like. Perhaps give status effects... Daze, Slow, Blind, and the like. Essentially these won't be feats but may be based off feats.

Advance Stances: These give multiple feats (usually feat trees) that give more options than a basic stance.

I'll fix all this later

undead hero

2013-06-02, 10:07 PM

Repair Kit (Ex)

The Sell Sword has a repair kit for repairing items, weapons, and armors. The Sell Sword has 100 RP (repair points) that are replenished when the Sell Sword makes her way back into town (10 gp to replace?). As the Sell Sword gains levels they know how to use better items to repair weapons and armor. This ability works even if the weapon/armor was broken down on purpose.

Level 1: 100 RP
Level 5: 200 RP
Level 10: 400 RP
Level 15: 600 RP
Level 20: Unlimited RP

Depending on the Sell Sword level she may repair an item, weapon, or armor by expending the repair kit.

At level 1 the Sell Sword can expend a number of Repair Points from his repair kit equal to the mundane price of the item he wishes to fix. A Master work dagger cost the same as a normal dagger to repair.

To Repair a weapons it cost 20 for simple weapons, 25 for martial weapons, and 30 for exotic weapons.
To repair armor it cost 25 RP for Light, 30 RP for Medium, and 35 RP for Heavy.

At level 5 the Sell Sword can repair enhanced weapons/armor. Add the normal price above with the price below to figure out the total price to fix the item.

+1 weapons/armor cost 40 RP to fix
+2 weapons/armor cost 75 RP to fix
+3 weapons/armor cost 100 RP to fix
+4 weapons/armor cost 125 RP to fix
+5 weapons/armor cost 150 RP to fix

At level 7 when the Sell Sword fixes an enhanced weapon/armor they now can allow a mage to change the magical properties of the item on a + for + basis. If the mage has the spells they could change a ghost touch weapon to a frost weapon without expending XP or GP.

Mighty_Chicken

2013-06-03, 09:55 AM

undead hero

2013-06-03, 11:32 AM

Well, I like it.

Skill points, class skills? This is important since the class has some skill-related abilities.

I like the concept of the stances, but I'm afraid it comits the good old sin of "substituting all melee classes at the same time". Or doesn't it?

The class seems to have a niche, the skilled, lonely wolf. I don't see it getting tank or party-buffing stances, for example... But I think it does step a little over the barbarian's toes, for example.

Add a spoiler under each stance, with a short description of all bonuses and abilities each stance gives. It's hard to remember what all the feats do at once.

I like how simple the class is. Keep it simple, if you can. I think stances with drawbacks would add a lot of flavor but would detract from the class' simplicity.

Overall, nice job :)

Thanks!

I just posted most of what I had on my computer last night and I'm still debating on how to do the skills. What I thought was to give like 4 - 6 basic skills that all Sell Swords will have (4 or 6 skill points base) and then have specialist skills (2-3) that are class skills based on what type of Sell Sword you want to be. Sort of how the Psion gets a discipline and adds a couple more skills. You won't have to bar anything with the Sell Sword it will just be a bit of fluff to go along with your character (and you know, free skills).

The stances will have two types. Simple and Advanced. The simple stances will be like...

"Empower Stance: The Sell Sword takes a -2 to attack rolls but gains a +50% damage increase on all weapon attacks."

"Silent Stance: The Sell Sword strikes silently to keep from alerting guards or other creatures nearby. The Sell Sword takes a penalty on all damage equal to -50% but his strikes are completely silent. The Sell Sword still must make move silently skill checks when he moves."

The +/- 50% is calculated after the total damage for an attack is calculated. 1d8 (2) + 5 + 2 = 9 (4 damage)

I want to keep them simple but useful. Any drawbacks I give these stances will be minor if at all...

Whereas the more advance stances will give you a string of feats. We all know that feats are awesome but not really broken.

I'm also not worried about stepping on the toes of the core classes because I hate the mechanics of the core classes haha. I might want to put cleats on this class and slam the foot down on the hole foot. Hopefully a player can use the Sell Sword to play any sort of class he wants, from a swashbuckler to a barbarian.

Thanks for some tips, I'm going to keep editing this thing till it looks a bit better.

WyvernLord

2013-06-03, 11:50 AM

undead hero

2013-06-03, 01:01 PM

This is interesting and even fits into a character concept that I'm working on. I'll keep an eye on this.

Are you looking for abilities to fill the dead level? If so a pounce ability would be useful. Unless you are going to have it as a stance.

Awesome.

Pounce and a few primal type abilities will go into a stance eventually.

I haven't really thought of later levels but I want to put class features there that aren't just filler... I hate filler.

WyvernLord

2013-06-03, 02:50 PM

We need hit die, skills, and proficiencies. We need to check the chassis.

Agreed filler just makes it tedious to got though the classes abilities.
You're making it hard to suggest stuff though because you already have stances that do a lot of it. Or you already added it in on the class features.

You have ways to manipulate economy, and some resistance to magic. And action economy is easy when you have a second person under your control.

This class is already in a strong position. Nothing else that could be added, without magical abilities, that wouldn't fit stances better. It is a challenge. :smallconfused:

Also can't wait to see the basic stances.
And ranged stance too. (Quick suggestion add shot on the run to mobility stance. Archers need some love.)
Edit: Maybe some kind of improved crafting ability. You are so good that you just make awesome swords by doing it normally.

You know that old dwarven smith on Mount Das'kruth? The one that makes Adamantine weapons.
He used to be an adventurer. Delving deep under the earth to find the old holds of dwarves. There he sought the secrets to the ancient crafts. He took them to the mountain and there he lives, making weapons fit for gods.

Mighty_Chicken

2013-06-03, 05:10 PM

I'd just like to point that as wizards don't have dead levels because they're always learning new spells, a Sell Sword wouldn't have dead levels because she'd be always learning new stances...

Maybe some kind of improved crafting ability. You are so good that you just make awesome swords by doing it normally.

That's great, though there could be an option to choose one other skill. So one sell sword could be a great climber, another one the greatest rider... I think it fits the archetype pretty well, and if this mastery is restricted to one skill or two you're not disturbing party balance by, uh... you know, the ugly expression? "Stepping on" skillmonkeys' "feet"? Being better at fighting than other fighters is one thing, but being awesome at more than one party role is exactly what makes people complain about full casters.

eftexar

2013-06-03, 05:34 PM

If you want it to be somewhat skill monkey-ish something like the Rogue's skill mastery would be useful. You might even want to fold the Exemplar into this class entirely.

I always thought the Pathfinder fighter would be decent if it could choose an ACF in addition to it's abilities (instead of in place of). Some of the abilities here seem too specific for a broader minded class right now, so if maybe you mimicked the sort of structure I was suggesting with Pathfinder...

undead hero

2013-06-03, 06:30 PM

Chassis is added though I think hit die or skill points may go up or down depending.

Starting Gold is based off the idea that the Sell Sword has been selling their services at a higher price or their master was able to give them more money before sending them off into the world.

We need hit die, skills, and proficiencies. We need to check the chassis.

Agreed filler just makes it tedious to got though the classes abilities.
You're making it hard to suggest stuff though because you already have stances that do a lot of it. Or you already added it in on the class features.

You have ways to manipulate economy, and some resistance to magic. And action economy is easy when you have a second person under your control.

This class is already in a strong position. Nothing else that could be added, without magical abilities, that wouldn't fit stances better. It is a challenge. :smallconfused:

Also can't wait to see the basic stances.
And ranged stance too. (Quick suggestion add shot on the run to mobility stance. Archers need some love.)
Edit: Maybe some kind of improved crafting ability. You are so good that you just make awesome swords by doing it normally.

You know that old dwarven smith on Mount Das'kruth? The one that makes Adamantine weapons.
He used to be an adventurer. Delving deep under the earth to find the old holds of dwarves. There he sought the secrets to the ancient crafts. He took them to the mountain and there he lives, making weapons fit for gods.

Shot on the Run has been added. I wanted to start with martial and then add in the archery after I got my basics down.

Hmmm I like the idea of the improved crafting... Hmm..

I'd just like to point that as wizards don't have dead levels because they're always learning new spells, a Sell Sword wouldn't have dead levels because she'd be always learning new stances...

That's great, though there could be an option to choose one other skill. So one sell sword could be a great climber, another one the greatest rider... I think it fits the archetype pretty well, and if this mastery is restricted to one skill or two you're not disturbing party balance by, uh... you know, the ugly expression? "Stepping on" skillmonkeys' "feet"? Being better at fighting than other fighters is one thing, but being awesome at more than one party role is exactly what makes people complain about full casters.

I would love if all the classic archetypes (big stupid fighter, skill monkey, waste of space, etc...) would step up their games... I would love to see the Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue be awesome. If I'm making a class I don't want to step on the feet of the tier 4 - 5 classes, I want to crush them. Making a tier 3 or higher class that is purely mundane or Ex should be my goal.

I don't know if my finished product will be this, but a person can hope.

If you want it to be somewhat skill monkey-ish something like the Rogue's skill mastery would be useful. You might even want to fold the Exemplar into this class entirely.

I always thought the Pathfinder fighter would be decent if it could choose an ACF in addition to it's abilities (instead of in place of). Some of the abilities here seem too specific for a broader minded class right now, so if maybe you mimicked the sort of structure I was suggesting with Pathfinder...

No, Pathfinder is not a structure I would like to copy. Pathfinder is just 3.5 with a bunch of extra crap thrown at the mundane classes. I want to put some actual meat with the potatoes.

Thanks for the suggestion but Pathfinder is the exact opposite direction than I want to go.

eftexar

2013-06-03, 06:40 PM

I think you're misunderstanding what I meant when I pointed out pathfinder, but I suppose I should have been more specific. I mostly meant using archetypes like Gnorman's e6 classes and the idea of weapon training (to eliminate the need for weapon focus).

undead hero

2013-06-03, 06:45 PM

I think you're misunderstanding what I meant when I pointed out pathfinder. I mostly meant using archetypes like Gnorman's e6 classes.

Yeah even then most of the archetypes for mundanes are horrible.

Also you don't need ACFs/Archetypes if you make your class correctly. Think of it like a 3.5 Warblade or Swordsage. You have so many options with their maneuvers and stances that you don't need ACFs or Archetypes since you can make a different sort of Warblade or Swordsage without taking away from the core class features.

eftexar

2013-06-03, 06:56 PM

Point taken. I wasn't sure which direction you were taking this and the deluge of bonus feats made me wary.

undead hero

2013-06-03, 07:21 PM

Point taken. I wasn't sure which direction you were taking this and the deluge of bonus feats made me wary.

Before the Sell Sword goes out on a job she will train for the job. If the job requires stealth and cunning then the Sell Sword will most likely take feats such as Skill Focus (Hide), Skill Focus (Move Silently), and possibly something like Run. The Sell Sword would train up and focus more toward that.

If the Sell Sword has to go out into a battle on the front line, the Sell Sword will more likely eat properly and work out to improve his health... The feats she would choose Toughness, Toughness, and Improved Toughness as her feats.

The Stances will be the Sell Sword's main feature and won't be exchangeable as much though they won't need them to be.

WyvernLord

2013-06-03, 08:03 PM

undead hero

2013-06-03, 08:30 PM

Suggestions about crafting.
Start early with a field repair ability. Add an ability that lets you save gear from being completely destroyed by rust monsters or disintegrate. Then add legendary crafting, if you feel like it.
These would help a warrior out and make rust monsters annoying but not game over go find new gear.
Also archer is now somewhat better. Maximized stance helps archery's (and TWF's) main problem in 3.5. Though watch out for optimized power attackers with that.
Also stance ideas.
Deceptive stance
Feint as a free action once a round with no AoO (Improved Feint feat?). No idea if a penalty would be appropriate. Possibly scaling sneak attack somewhere.

Marksman stance.
Precise shot, improved precise shot, and far shot. Add Dex mod to damage if within first range increment.

Love the ideas! The field repair will be getting into this class somehow since that is just awesome.

I'm not to worried about the optimizers since really I'm not giving people anything they don't already have. They want to do 10048575.50 damage? They can do that already. What this class will help with is that you won't need to go through 50 splat books just to make a half competent mundane character. :smallsmile:

I'm still working on some of the names for the Stances and Postures ... Some of them are kinda lame haha.

@Everyone

Does anyone have a problem with the Diplomacy or Intimidate Postures? I really like the idea of some guy in the middle of battle waving his sword around all crazy like just to scare some enemies. OoTS (Elan and Tarquin) have given me a bit of an appreciation for thematic :smallbiggrin:

undead hero

2013-06-03, 09:25 PM

Here is my rough draft for the Field Repair.

Repair Kit (Ex):

The Sell Sword has a repair kit for repairing items, weapons, and armors. The Sell Sword has 100 RP (repair points) that are replenished when the Sell Sword makes her way back into town (10 gp to replace?). As the Sell Sword gains levels they know how to use better items to repair weapons and armor. This ability works even if the weapon/armor was broken down on purpose.

Level 1: 100 RP
Level 5: 200 RP
Level 10: 400 RP
Level 15: 600 RP
Level 20: Unlimited RP

Depending on the Sell Sword level she may repair an item, weapon, or armor by expending the repair kit.

At level 1 the Sell Sword can expend a number of Repair Points from his repair kit equal to the mundane price of the item he wishes to fix. A Master work dagger cost the same as a normal dagger to repair.

To Repair a weapons it cost 20 for simple weapons, 25 for martial weapons, and 30 for exotic weapons.
To repair armor it cost 25 RP for Light, 30 RP for Medium, and 35 RP for Heavy.

At level 5 the Sell Sword can repair enhanced weapons/armor. Add the normal price above with the price below to figure out the total price to fix the item.

+1 weapons/armor cost 40 RP to fix
+2 weapons/armor cost 75 RP to fix
+3 weapons/armor cost 100 RP to fix
+4 weapons/armor cost 125 RP to fix
+5 weapons/armor cost 150 RP to fix

At level 7 when the Sell Sword fixes an enhanced weapon/armor they now can allow a mage to change the magical properties of the item on a + for + basis. If the mage has the spells they could change a ghost touch weapon to a frost weapon without expending XP or GP.

***NOTE***

Obviously I need to work on this, the math may be off since I eye balled it... And possibly not very well. I wanted a way for the Sell Sword to be able to fix stuff but I didn't want it to be "Oh no my sword is broken....:smallsigh:"

I'll work on this more tomorrow....

WyvernLord

2013-06-03, 09:25 PM

undead hero

2013-06-03, 09:50 PM

Diplomacy stance is just giving them plus ten to diplomacy. With homebrew allowed you are now part of the diplomancer. A proper diplomancer doesn't attack anyway. Diplomatic stance is to easy to just get the benefit without a drawback. It is spending one of your twelve stances but man a 1 level dip is perfect for a diplomancer.
Intimidating posture.
-2 to attack, -50% damage, +4 intimidate may demoralize as a move action.
That is useful without being a ridiculous skill boost.
Field repair looks good. The level seven ability is really cool. I can just imagine the scene, a warrior and a wizard in the forge together changing the very soul of the weapon.

Bold by me...

Awesome! That is what I was going for.

As for the diplomancer... I see your point with this. I'm also thinking of giving the Sell Sword a different multiclass mechanic...

Sell Swords are free to multiclass as they will, however if they ever gain a number of levels in other classes equal to or greater than [Sell Sword Levels - 3] then they lose all Sell Sword abilities except for the Bonus Feats, Trackless Step, Poison Use, Create Poison, and Track.

So it gives you some leeway to multiclass but it prevents dipping for the stances.

I'm not 100% on it but I may be biased since I hate the multiclass mechanics in 3.5

undead hero

2013-06-04, 09:18 PM

I finally figured out the class feature for the last level.

I wanted it to be something strong but nothing that is just filler or anything that comes to late (like Mettle on the Crusader).

I think the Leadership (Improved) class feature is quite powerful though not so much as the Wizard chain gating of course.

5 cohorts (level 16 - 18 ish) + Level 19 Sell Sword... would be quite an army!

I now will be putting a special note that no cohort can have leadership in any way.... That might get to be a bit ridiculous...

Small Change Log:

Skill Points were cut down to 4. If they want to play a more skill monkey the player can take "Skillful Posture".

Stances: I've changed some stuff in the stances. I've changed Empower Stance to Empowered Stance since everyone will take Maximize Stance. Plus it gives players using just the basic stances a way to increase their Dex or Str score.

Also began to add more stances.... One of which says "screw you monk".

Leadership: Yeah I went there. I need to make an ACF in case a DM thinks gaining cohorts makes this class more powerful than a wizard or something stupid like that. Do note that the cohorts can't get more cohorts and that no cohort can have a class level in a full casting (or binder) class.

Note:

As of right now you could with this class play...

Scout
Fighter
Ranger
Barbarian
Monk
Knight (once "Come at me Bro!" errr "Opening Stance" is completed)

Which reminds me to add a few things..

WyvernLord

2013-06-04, 09:59 PM

SSGoW

2013-06-04, 10:26 PM

4 + Int Mod Skills AND Full BAB!

The madness!

:smallbiggrin:

And actually, once this guy gets "Steal Heart" he even replaces the Bard in a way...

You Spooney Sell Sword!

Edit: Now for some constructive idea time...

Give this guy "Rapid Metabolism" (or whatever the feat is called). This will allow the Sell Sword to heal faster from injury faster. I think you gain (without rest) 1hp/HD + Double Con Mod hp / day...

This could be taken as a bonus feat but I think it would make a great class feature.

undead hero

2013-06-05, 01:27 PM

This is still looking good. Finish opening stance, hurreeeey. :smalltongue:

I still say it should be deceptive stance though.

The man who is standing in front of you is striking quick. His movements are hard to predict and he smiles at you. As you move to block him his blade shifts and moves high. The blade cuts your forehead leaving blood coming down clouding your vision. His smile hurts your pride more then the sword hurt you. Your strikes are wilder and he just keeps landing hits...

This could be motivation or an example for deceptive stance.

No worries, deceptive stance will be added. I've been working on a basic and advance version.

I like it as a basic skill boost stance.

I'm horrid as a fluff writer, but with your permission I would like to use what you wrote for the deceptive stance's fluff.

If you want to do more fluff be my guest. Credit will be given to anyone who writes fluff for a stance.

WyvernLord

2013-06-05, 02:08 PM

No worries, deceptive stance will be added. I've been working on a basic and advance version.

I like it as a basic skill boost stance.
Okay, this class is part of my character in a high power campaign. I wanted to play a warrior that can keep up with mages. We are starting low enough to use this class. I'll post my first impressions of how it plays soon.

I'm horrid as a fluff writer, but with your permission I would like to use what you wrote for the deceptive stance's fluff.

If you want to do more fluff be my guest. Credit will be given to anyone who writes fluff for a stance.

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
Permission given.
I might write more.

undead hero

2013-06-05, 03:33 PM

Okay, this class is part of my character in a high power campaign. I wanted to play a warrior that can keep up with mages. We are starting low enough to use this class. I'll post my first impressions of how it plays soon.

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
Permission given.
I might write more.

Fantastic!

I doubt this guy will keep up, I feel it will be more of a... "Hey I'm mundane and not easily replaceable... Screw you clericzilla, polymorphed wizard, and druid."

But I'm flattered that you're playing this class! DMs that I know haaaate homebrew so I'm also jealous :p

I can't wait to hear about your experience!

WyvernLord

2013-06-05, 06:04 PM

Fantastic!

I doubt this guy will keep up, I feel it will be more of a... "Hey I'm mundane and not easily replaceable... Screw you clericzilla, polymorphed wizard, and druid."

But I'm flattered that you're playing this class! DMs that I know haaaate homebrew so I'm also jealous :p

I can't wait to hear about your experience!

Yeah my group knows how much of a mess 3.5 is, so we play with it as a way of doing crazy things in a fantasy setting.
We did a RAW tournament, it was a really funny kind of stupid.

And I didn't mean like I can fly by being awesome. I meant more like, oh the caster did something, who cares? I can deal with it.

undead hero

2013-06-05, 07:05 PM

Yeah my group knows how much of a mess 3.5 is, so we play with it as a way of doing crazy things in a fantasy setting.
We did a RAW tournament, it was a really funny kind of stupid.

And I didn't mean like I can fly by being awesome. I meant more like, oh the caster did something, who cares? I can deal with it.

Oh you lucky lucky grue! Way to many people still don't get 3.5 yet haha.

About keeping up...

Fantastic, I like the way you think! My problem with mundanes in 3.5 isn't that wizards/clerics/druids are insanely powerful... It is that mundanes become useless at level 7 or so... :(

I want my mundane to be able to kick ass, chew gum, and be all out of bubblegum when the BBEG comes around.

In other news

On what this class is "missing"...

A: Healing: Not doing anything about this, seriously. I may add in SSGoW's idea of "Rapid Metabolism" but healing other people is not what this class will be doing.

B: Fly: I won't be giving the class flight. However what I will do is allow the Sell Sword to ignore the vertical cap on jumping... Perhaps through a stance. So when a creature is 30 - 60 feet up in the air? Pshaw! Perhaps a jump check to land safely too... Or else jumping might kill this guy.

Can you say "My Sell Sword is a god dang Dragoon!"?

C: I had something else here... I forgot what is was haha

Qwertystop

2013-06-05, 07:36 PM

undead hero

2013-06-05, 07:40 PM

I decided that since the stances ability score increases don't stack... I'm giving all the advance stances a +4 increase to either Strength or Dexterity.

Why? Because this stops people from having a "Stance Tax" for a basic stance (Empowered Stance) or a stance that people don't really want to take. I really hate feat tax sooo not creating a Stance Tax makes me happy.

undead hero

2013-06-05, 07:54 PM

Um... seems to me you took a bunch of general-purpose mundane-can-too-get-good-things abilities, stuck them together so the guy can solo in a usually-team game, and then added on a you-get-paid-extra ability when there aren't actually standardized prices for getting hired and it'd come down to RP and in-character stuff anyway. So apparently everybody ever knows you'd be a really good choice and pays extra irrelevant of whether anyone else would get paid at all or just threatened or where you came from or how long you've been in the area?

I don't think I made a Ex Wizard or Ex Druid. I doubt this guy could solo a game, he has no ability to use the classic AoE (which reminds me, this is what I was trying to remember before! The closest he gets is an archer build.) abilities. Sure this guy is strong but he is no where near the "solo the game" types. There are many spells that he just can't replicate without actually becoming magical.

Also with the Contracts it is the total price. Thus everyone in the party benefits. Perhaps I worded the ability wrong...

This actually does happen in real life you know. If certain contractors are working on a project then the client will happily pay more because they know they will get a better product. Also they know if they throw in a bit more then the contractors will do a better job since they are being taken care of.

If the party Bard gets someone to pay 10,000 GP to escort his pet dog to the park so it can poo... And the Sell Sword boost that by 5, 10, 15, or 20%... Then I'm not sure where the problem is. Really this ability works very very well with a Party Face kind of character.

Edit: Also the paid extra thing came first :smallbiggrin: the rest kinda fell into place.

Qwertystop

2013-06-05, 08:08 PM

undead hero

2013-06-05, 08:40 PM

What I mean is that the paid-extra bit is completely separate from any actual capability, and in any case you're forcing rules onto something that isn't normally rule-based. The end result is you get paid what you would get paid anyway, because it's all DM-determined, and the class feature just says that they'd have paid less otherwise.

Class abilities are normally not in-game constructs, and this guy isn't actually automatically better at everything such that he'd get paid better no matter what.

It isn't that he is actually better or not. It is that the perception is that he is better because he has a fancy name. This is the hole concept of Brand Name items versus Off Brand Items.

In this case it is Sell Sword (Kleenex) versus Fighter (Generic Cold Tissues). You are willing to pay more because you believe you are getting the better product even if the products are exactly the same.... Though in this case the Sell Sword > Fighter of course.

Sure the DM can choose whatever he wants to have an NPC pay. That doesn't matter. Take the ability as pure fluff at that point. But I could bet my weight in salt that the DM will forget that the Sell Sword has this ability and say "The NPC will pay you 1,000 GP to deliver this letter in the next town" and the Sell Sword player can say "He has to raise that by 40% and is willing to when he finds out I'm a Sell Sword".

Of course the Sell Sword could always give them a discount *shrug*

I get where you are coming from but I don't see how this is a problem... If it doesn't matter (via DM fiat or whatever people wanna call it) then the fluff idea of it is still awesome. At least in one part of the game a Mundane beats out the Tier 1 casters.

Old cryptic man giving out quest for 200 gp? Screw you wizard I'm getting 206 gp! mwuahahaha!

Qwertystop

2013-06-05, 09:03 PM

It isn't that he is actually better or not. It is that the perception is that he is better because he has a fancy name. This is the hole concept of Brand Name items versus Off Brand Items.
It's just that that's not actually something anyone can tell. Class levels are an OOC construct to handle rules, not something visible to anyone (except a few PrCs that are specific organizations). You can't tell the difference between a Fighter and a Warblade, or a Sorcerer who gets mostly Enchantments and a Beguiler, unless you see one do something the other can't. This position is actually specifically supported in the rules - things like Magic Mouth and Glyph of Warding can key to alignment, visible traits, race, etcetera, but not class levels or HD.

undead hero

2013-06-05, 09:24 PM

It's just that that's not actually something anyone can tell. Class levels are an OOC construct to handle rules, not something visible to anyone (except a few PrCs that are specific organizations). You can't tell the difference between a Fighter and a Warblade, or a Sorcerer who gets mostly Enchantments and a Beguiler, unless you see one do something the other can't. This position is actually specifically supported in the rules - things like Magic Mouth and Glyph of Warding can key to alignment, visible traits, race, etcetera, but not class levels or HD.

Sell Sword is an actual term... Like mercenary. It isn't just a class but a job and way of life.

There is the Fighter class and a fighter (boxer, wrestler, or whatever).

The Sell Sword is a sell sword. It keeps players from abusing craft(basket weaving). You could change the name of the class feature to "haggler" on your character sheet if you want.

*Edit*

Totally did all that on my phone and it is horribly written.

Qwertystop

2013-06-05, 09:43 PM

Sell Sword is an actual term... Like mercenary. It isn't just a class but a job and way of life.

There is the Fighter class and a fighter (boxer, wrestler, or whatever).

The Sell Sword is a sell sword. It keeps players from abusing craft(basket weaving). You could change the name of the class feature to "haggler" on your character sheet if you want.

Yes, but the thing is, a Fighter can be a mercenary too. A Wablade might be able to do it better, even. Class name and job name are not locked to each other - a Rogue could be a thief or con artist, yes, but also a pretty good diplomat. A Swordsage does better at Monk-ing than a Monk does. A Barbarian has no actual incentive to act like a crazy maniac - and Raging works just as well fluffed as a disciplined focus.

undead hero

2013-06-05, 10:12 PM

Yes, but the thing is, a Fighter can be a mercenary too. A Wablade might be able to do it better, even. Class name and job name are not locked to each other - a Rogue could be a thief or con artist, yes, but also a pretty good diplomat. A Swordsage does better at Monk-ing than a Monk does. A Barbarian has no actual incentive to act like a crazy maniac - and Raging works just as well fluffed as a disciplined focus.

Edit:
A Sell Sword who is a sell sword (mercenary) can be a con artist, thief, diplomat, raging maniac, or a whatever. I don't see how being able to make a bit more GP stops that... Or how being in a guild or job somehow causes a problem. I could totally see my first Sell Sword being a basket weaver in his spare time since he can actually afford to take up Skill Focus (Craft Basket Weaving).

EDIT: A lot of this is either Role Playing or Feats which this class gets tons of to deal with.

A Fighter can be a sell sword if he wishes, nothing is stopping him. However I had the foresight to actually give my class some actual class features to go along with its main theme.

Really the 3.5 Fighter should be called the Feater though...

Deaxsa

2013-06-06, 12:13 PM

1. there is no "Leadership class feature"
2. why on earth are you giving something the leadership feat? for free?
3. no one is about to take intimidating/Diplomatic stance, you subtract too much damage. besides, it's much more diplomatic to simply keep your weapon sheathed than to have it drawn and act all nice. people can increase diplomacy/intimidate other ways. and someone who can barely harm you is not very intimidating, so when they learn about your horrible damage, they will probably get a huge circumstance bonus.
4. while bonus feats are nice, you are already giving a bunch of class features. additionally, the ability to retrain them would be a complete headache. i suggest some combination of A) lowering the quantity of bonus feats, B) removing the ability to retrain them, and C) buffing class features (for instance, at X level, an active stance becomes an aura to creatures within L feet, upgrades to M feet at Y level, and N feet at Z level.

why did you give this class so many random abilities? this class has no theme. they are assassins (poison use), leaders/speakers (leadership/speaking postures), and trackers all rolled into one. you should at least have to pick and choose, not just get the whole shebang.(especially because the whole shebang is a thematic nightmare.. it would make more sense if all these abilities that were off kilter were intuitively tied to a core concept. which they are not. i mean, poison use? really?)

if i were trying to go for the same thing this class is going for, i'd just play as a marshal.

edit: i would like to point out that "guy who goes out and does bloody stuff for money" is also the theme of almost every class and prestige class in DnD. and so it does not count. in other words, i guess i'm asking the question "what is the point of this class supposed to be?" (not to be rude, but to get a grasp on what exactly the goal is. also, if i am being rude, i'm sorry, i don't mean to be)

undead hero

2013-06-06, 02:01 PM

Deaxsa

2013-06-06, 02:58 PM

I'll give a longer response later but what this class has became is a mundane master.

Like many athletes they don't need to specialize, they are pretty awesome at multiple sports...they just specialize to male money. Why should my fantasy Sell Sword specialize? I like the real world martial artist that know dozens of hand to hand styles plus multiple weapons...that is what this class gives.

"Hey I'm here to get paid and with a little practice I'll have the skills necessary for the job."

Please do note that this is a Work In Progress so don't expect perfect editing just yet.
first of all, if i'm coming off as rude, please let me know, and also how i can be less insulting, i aim to critique, not to bash.
second, i think that specializing is a thing you should have because it adds flavor. heck, even athletes are specialized in this thing called sports. they could have been soldiers, or rangers, or muscle men, etc, but they chose sports. additionally, you are not building a "martial master" class. you are building a "Martial master +leadership capabilities+other capabilities". as far as having someone that can do a lot of things goes, yea, it's cool, but in DnD it's covered by one of two things: multiclassing (so you want to be a sneaky guy who is ALSO good at tracking? multiclass ranger/rogue!), and being good at multiple things as a function of the same ability. take for instance the druid ability wild shape: the core concept is that it lets you turn into animals, but you are good at stealth, grappling, escaping, you can fly, and many other things, all tied to one mechanism. or take the wizard: it's good at everything, but all because of ONE ability, not because of 6.

so yea... i mean, it feels like as soon as you decide you want HiPS as a shadowdancer on this class, you'll stick it on, because this class is "good at stuff", without thinking about whether or not it actually ties to the core concept of this class (because there is no core concept to this class).

my suggestion to you is to narrow this class down to one or two signature abilities, and do as much as you can with them. as an excercise, name the things that make classes in the PHB what they are:

Druid=Nature spells+Wild Shape
Rogue=Skill points+Sneak Attack
Ranger=Weapon Style+Track
Barbarian=Rage
Cleric=Turn/Rebuke Undead+Divine Spellcasting
Wizard=Spellbook
Sorcerer=Spontaneous Spells
Monk=Flurry of blows
Bard=Knowing everything, social fu, helping teammates
(Fighter, monk and paladin are poorly conceived IMO, especially paladin)

edit: for your class, let's break down the abilities you have.

1. stances. basically, self-buffs. cool. kinda feels like the core ability of this class.

2. bonus feats. also a cool idea, but the retraining bit seems more like a fighter fix than something that belongs here. also, if this class had JUST the fighter feats and the ability to retrain, every fighter would be this class instead. other than the fact that it breaks the fighter, this and stances seem like the core concept.

3. leadership capabilities. this is where we go off the beaten path. why does someone who is a physical force suddenly have the ability to have a bunch of friends?

4. repair kit, cool idea, but in practice, when was the last time you heard of a party going back to get their armor and weapons repaired? and before that? (Macguffins don't count). yea, we're not playing oblivion or far cry 2. this is scrappable (no pun intended).

5. sell sword. good concept, but not the best idea for a couple of reasons. first of all, sometimes there just isn't any more money, whether you have a class ability or not. money does not multiply (unless you want to start dealing with inflation). second, you are setting yourself up to break WBL with this. and that is a very, very dangerous thing to do. ESPECIALLY if you spread the wealth you get with your party members. maybe, instead of a multiplier, make this class feature "Sell sword: beginning at 1st level, a sell sword will add his/her class level to any charisma-based checks to bargain the price of his/her services"

6. Rapid metabolism. cool. this makes sense. people in better condition heal faster. sweet.

7.poison use/Create poison. um.. what was that? poison use? i thought this guy was about self-buffing and beating things into the dirt (and getting well-paid for it). so... why does this guy now have a stealth ability? i'd get rid of this. his fluff (as far as i'm aware) is not about backstabbing people, either literally or metaphorically.

8. Track/Trackless step. again: what? why is this guy looking to be a scout(CAdv)? complete thematic split (three-way split if you include poison use)

9. freedom of movement at 9th level as an (Ex) is overpowered, and not even thematically appropriate. to compare, the scout gets it at level 18, and it's not anywhere as good as this. this. needs. to. go.

10. Spell resistance. not only does this guy gain spell resistance, it gains spell resistance which is pretty damn high, too. to compare, monks, who get a similar ability two levels later, only gets 10+level. besides, why does a martial guy have SR all of a suddden? i thought his thing was tracking/poisoning/stances/feats. yea, seriously. you need to tone this thing down and stop adding random abilities at pretty low levels.

11. Steel Heart. ok, so not only is this NOT realistic, "for teh lulz" is never a good idea to make a class feature exist. additionally, who says you're famous in every single town ever? heck, you might be INfamous. this is a ridiculous ability. i mean, you could probably refluff it and make it work (thinks of Jayne from firefly.. but then he didn't have swift tracker and freedom of movement and poison use and leadership...), but that would require some work. additionally, it kinda breaks the rules for save DCs everyone is used to? save DCs should be 10+stat mod+1/2 something(or 1*something is the cap is low, or spell level if it's a spell). so maybe, make the DC 10+1/2 SellSword Level+Cha mod?

so, yea. my advice to you is to pick a thing or two that define this class, and go with them all the way, see how awesome you can make that. not to add all these things to try and make them more powerful. (i'm surprised you didn't give them evasion/uncanny dodge too)

edit: why has this class got the following skills: balance, decipher script, disguise, forgery, Hide, Move Silently, and speak language?

also, why hasn't it got use rope?

edit: oh and if the goal is to make something that has got a bunch of capabilities and allows for playing a game with one player... just play gestalt instead.

undead hero

2013-06-06, 04:05 PM

first of all, if i'm coming off as rude, please let me know, and also how i can be less insulting, i aim to critique, not to bash.
second, i think that specializing is a thing you should have because it adds flavor. heck, even athletes are specialized in this thing called sports. they could have been soldiers, or rangers, or muscle men, etc, but they chose sports. additionally, you are not building a "martial master" class. you are building a "Martial master +leadership capabilities+other capabilities". as far as having someone that can do a lot of things goes, yea, it's cool, but in DnD it's covered by one of two things: multiclassing (so you want to be a sneaky guy who is ALSO good at tracking? multiclass ranger/rogue!), and being good at multiple things as a function of the same ability. take for instance the druid ability wild shape: the core concept is that it lets you turn into animals, but you are good at stealth, grappling, escaping, you can fly, and many other things, all tied to one mechanism. or take the wizard: it's good at everything, but all because of ONE ability, not because of 6.

so yea... i mean, it feels like as soon as you decide you want HiPS as a shadowdancer on this class, you'll stick it on, because this class is "good at stuff", without thinking about whether or not it actually ties to the core concept of this class (because there is no core concept to this class).

my suggestion to you is to narrow this class down to one or two signature abilities, and do as much as you can with them. as an excercise, name the things that make classes in the PHB what they are:

Druid=Nature spells+Wild Shape
Rogue=Skill points+Sneak Attack
Ranger=Weapon Style+Track
Barbarian=Rage
Cleric=Turn/Rebuke Undead+Divine Spellcasting
Wizard=Spellbook
Sorcerer=Spontaneous Spells
Monk=Flurry of blows
Bard=Knowing everything, social fu, helping teammates
(Fighter, monk and paladin are poorly conceived IMO, especially paladin)

edit: for your class, let's break down the abilities you have.

1. stances. basically, self-buffs. cool. kinda feels like the core ability of this class.

2. bonus feats. also a cool idea, but the retraining bit seems more like a fighter fix than something that belongs here. also, if this class had JUST the fighter feats and the ability to retrain, every fighter would be this class instead. other than the fact that it breaks the fighter, this and stances seem like the core concept.

3. leadership capabilities. this is where we go off the beaten path. why does someone who is a physical force suddenly have the ability to have a bunch of friends?

4. repair kit, cool idea, but in practice, when was the last time you heard of a party going back to get their armor and weapons repaired? and before that? (Macguffins don't count). yea, we're not playing oblivion or far cry 2. this is scrappable (no pun intended).

5. sell sword. good concept, but not the best idea for a couple of reasons. first of all, sometimes there just isn't any more money, whether you have a class ability or not. money does not multiply (unless you want to start dealing with inflation). second, you are setting yourself up to break WBL with this. and that is a very, very dangerous thing to do. ESPECIALLY if you spread the wealth you get with your party members. maybe, instead of a multiplier, make this class feature "Sell sword: beginning at 1st level, a sell sword will add his/her class level to any charisma-based checks to bargain the price of his/her services"

6. Rapid metabolism. cool. this makes sense. people in better condition heal faster. sweet.

7.poison use/Create poison. um.. what was that? poison use? i thought this guy was about self-buffing and beating things into the dirt (and getting well-paid for it). so... why does this guy now have a stealth ability? i'd get rid of this. his fluff (as far as i'm aware) is not about backstabbing people, either literally or metaphorically.

8. Track/Trackless step. again: what? why is this guy looking to be a scout(CAdv)? complete thematic split (three-way split if you include poison use)

9. freedom of movement at 9th level as an (Ex) is overpowered, and not even thematically appropriate. to compare, the scout gets it at level 18, and it's not anywhere as good as this. this. needs. to. go.

10. Spell resistance. not only does this guy gain spell resistance, it gains spell resistance which is pretty damn high, too. to compare, monks, who get a similar ability two levels later, only gets 10+level. besides, why does a martial guy have SR all of a suddden? i thought his thing was tracking/poisoning/stances/feats. yea, seriously. you need to tone this thing down and stop adding random abilities at pretty low levels.

11. Steel Heart. ok, so not only is this NOT realistic, "for teh lulz" is never a good idea to make a class feature exist. additionally, who says you're famous in every single town ever? heck, you might be INfamous. this is a ridiculous ability. i mean, you could probably refluff it and make it work (thinks of Jayne from firefly.. but then he didn't have swift tracker and freedom of movement and poison use and leadership...), but that would require some work. additionally, it kinda breaks the rules for save DCs everyone is used to? save DCs should be 10+stat mod+1/2 something(or 1*something is the cap is low, or spell level if it's a spell). so maybe, make the DC 10+1/2 SellSword Level+Cha mod?

so, yea. my advice to you is to pick a thing or two that define this class, and go with them all the way, see how awesome you can make that. not to add all these things to try and make them more powerful. (i'm surprised you didn't give them evasion/uncanny dodge too)

edit: why has this class got the following skills: balance, decipher script, disguise, forgery, Hide, Move Silently, and speak language?

also, why hasn't it got use rope?

edit: oh and if the goal is to make something that has got a bunch of capabilities and allows for playing a game with one player... just play gestalt instead.

Actually if you be rude/jerkish it might held light the fire in my responses :smalltongue: so don't worry bout that. Its the internet if I can't deal with a bit of it I need to hit the power button.

Though I didn't think you was being rude at all.

But two problems I see with your argument. 1 you base it off 3.5 being fair to mundane (freedom of movement at lvl 18 is horrid) and you seem to be stuck under the impression I want to balance this guy with other mundane classes. I want a fun mundane class that is easy to use and won't fall off the useful scale at lvl 7.

If that means combining a ton of mundane classes then so be it. What's the worst that can happen? I break 3.5?

Also leadership will be explained as taking on a sidekick and then later having a weaker group to support your party since you took them all under your wing... You need a strong heir to carry on your legacy.

Wait? I shouldn't put things in for lulz? Then why did they make the monk the way they did? Had to be for the Lol.

Qwertystop

2013-06-06, 04:12 PM

Also leadership will be explained as taking on a sidekick and then later having a weaker group to support your party since you took them all under your wing... You need a strong heir to carry on your legacy.

Wait? I shouldn't put things in for lulz? Then why did they make the monk the way they did? Had to be for the Lol.

Then that person should take Leadership as a feat, or just roleplay getting an ally. In-character decisions haven't been mandatory parts of base classes (except for general things like alingment) since either First or Second Edition, to my knowledge.

And they made the Monk the way they did for the same reason as all the other problems: lack of playtesting, and bad ideas about relative values. One big thing was overvaluing full BAB, for example, and another was undervaluing magic armor and weapon properties, and magic in general, especially the limited-per-day sort of things.

undead hero

2013-06-06, 04:56 PM

Then that person should take Leadership as a feat, or just roleplay getting an ally. In-character decisions haven't been mandatory parts of base classes (except for general things like alingment) since either First or Second Edition, to my knowledge.

And they made the Monk the way they did for the same reason as all the other problems: lack of playtesting, and bad ideas about relative values. One big thing was overvaluing full BAB, for example, and another was undervaluing magic armor and weapon properties, and magic in general, especially the limited-per-day sort of things.

Ummm well I guess I can be a core paladin and kill puppies and burn down the hospitals....while retaining my class features.

And yeah the monk thing was a jab at 3.5 for that.

Deaxsa

2013-06-06, 05:04 PM

Actually if you be rude/jerkish it might held light the fire in my responses :smalltongue: so don't worry bout that. Its the internet if I can't deal with a bit of it I need to hit the power button.

Though I didn't think you was being rude at all.

But two problems I see with your argument. 1 you base it off 3.5 being fair to mundane (freedom of movement at lvl 18 is horrid) and you seem to be stuck under the impression I want to balance this guy with other mundane classes. I want a fun mundane class that is easy to use and won't fall off the useful scale at lvl 7.

If that means combining a ton of mundane classes then so be it. What's the worst that can happen? I break 3.5?

<snip>(this was replied to very well by qwertystop)

i'm not trying to make your class weaker, i'm trying to make it thematically sound. i'm not suggesting you only remove things, i'm suggesting you pick some thing that allows for quite a bit of versatility and go all the way with it. why are swordsages so great? because they have a (single)feature which lets them do a bunch of things. not 8 features which let them do 8 things.

also, if you combine a bunch of class features, what person would NOT play this class?
bystander: "oh, look, it's a party of 3 sell-swords and a cleric. again."

finally, i am of the opinion that mundane is fine in 3.5. they are not UP. casters are OP. besides, who said you character would fall off at level 7? where are you, in a party with a bunch of ultra-optimized druids/clerics/wizards with access to all 3.5 material?

so i guess, what i'd ask you now is:
A) what do you define as being "Fun"?
B) what is the goal of this class? to have "Fun", to make something that stands up to optimized casters in power, to make something that pounds other mundanes into the dust, or something else?

it almost seems like this class is more of a statement against caster than a real class. yes, 3.5 is unbalanced. yes, if you only have one encounter a day, casters will be overpoweringly strong. yes, casters will usually have something to deal with the current problem. but no, it does not mean that mundane classes should be given biscuits until they are fat little doggies to compensate. if anything, play mundane as a challenge, and see if you can stay up to par, or at least how long you can stay up to par. people who optimize skirmish are people who are really god at the game. not people who play a druid as chaotic stupid and call it a day(because i'm only looking after myself, i'm true neutral! i swear!).

i am balancing this class according to the rules 3.5 gives me. i am also making the assumption people are not squeezing every point out of casting classes, and that people are willing to let me do my thing every once in a while, no matter what class i play(as long as my character actually HAS a thing, and is mildly good at it).

Qwertystop

2013-06-06, 05:23 PM

Ummm well I guess I can be a core paladin and kill puppies and burn down the hospitals....while retaining my class features.

Fine. Other than the two or three classes that have a strict moral code, there's no actual class-based mandating of in-character decisons.

And I think that still falls under "other than general things like alignment." The Paladin's Code and others like it don't mandate, they prohibit. You're free to be Lawful Good in whatever way you please, you just can't be Evil.

This class, on the other hand, says "Okay, whatever your character is like, you have to have five slightly-weaker-than-you allies/helpers/people you employ."

I mean, even the one class (that comes to mind) that actually does have a things-you-must-do rule, the Binder, lets you pick which ones you're going to be pegged with, only makes you do it if you do badly in a bargain (or voluntarily accept it), and doesn't actually force you into it - you just get a minor penalty whenever it isn't convenient to go along with it.

Deaxsa

2013-06-06, 05:38 PM

Ummm well I guess I can be a core paladin and kill puppies and burn down the hospitals....while retaining my class features.

And yeah the monk thing was a jab at 3.5 for that.

what on earth..? who is your DM? a robot? does (s)he not understand how to counter casters? the basic idea that EVERYONE ought to be having fun and feeling like they are doing things? also, who plays you casters? people who have to be the center of attention all the time? who need to rob other people of their roles? (i mean, as a wizard, i guess i COULD prepare a bunch of invisibility, knock, summon monster I, etc spells... or i could let the rogue actually be a rogue)

undead hero

2013-06-06, 05:51 PM

i'm not trying to make your class weaker, i'm trying to make it thematically sound. i'm not suggesting you only remove things, i'm suggesting you pick some thing that allows for quite a bit of versatility and go all the way with it. why are swordsages so great? because they have a (single)feature which lets them do a bunch of things. not 8 features which let them do 8 things.

also, if you combine a bunch of class features, what person would NOT play this class?
bystander: "oh, look, it's a party of 3 sell-swords and a cleric. again."

finally, i am of the opinion that mundane is fine in 3.5. they are not UP. casters are OP. besides, who said you character would fall off at level 7? where are you, in a party with a bunch of ultra-optimized druids/clerics/wizards with access to all 3.5 material?

so i guess, what i'd ask you now is:
A) what do you define as being "Fun"?
B) what is the goal of this class? to have "Fun", to make something that stands up to optimized casters in power, to make something that pounds other mundanes into the dust, or something else?

it almost seems like this class is more of a statement against caster than a real class. yes, 3.5 is unbalanced. yes, if you only have one encounter a day, casters will be overpoweringly strong. yes, casters will usually have something to deal with the current problem. but no, it does not mean that mundane classes should be given biscuits until they are fat little doggies to compensate. if anything, play mundane as a challenge, and see if you can stay up to par, or at least how long you can stay up to par. people who optimize skirmish are people who are really god at the game. not people who play a druid as chaotic stupid and call it a day(because i'm only looking after myself, i'm true neutral! i swear!).

i am balancing this class according to the rules 3.5 gives me. i am also making the assumption people are not squeezing every point out of casting classes, and that people are willing to let me do my thing every once in a while, no matter what class i play(as long as my character actually HAS a thing, and is mildly good at it).

See if you use a scale that isn't calibrated then you get faulty readings.

Also there is a problem with mundane in 3.5 outside of ToB and that is after lvl 7 they are useless and not needed. The are to restricted with what they can do to the point it makes no sense. Why can't my tripper build stop practicing tripping without waiting a level which could be a day, year, or never again? Perhaps I should just call this Sell Sword (replacing ranger fighter monk barbarian and other mundane)

This class is less about hating casters and more about hating mundanes.

undead hero

2013-06-06, 05:56 PM

what on earth..? who is your DM? a robot? does (s)he not understand how to counter casters? the basic idea that EVERYONE ought to be having fun and feeling like they are doing things? also, who plays you casters? people who have to be the center of attention all the time? who need to rob other people of their roles? (i mean, as a wizard, i guess i COULD prepare a bunch of invisibility, knock, summon monster I, etc spells... or i could let the rogue actually be a rogue)

Monks don't counter wizards... The word you are looking for is wizard

Deaxsa

2013-06-06, 06:04 PM

See if you use a scale that isn't calibrated then you get faulty readings.
sigh. did you miss the part where i said that imo casters are the problem, not mundanes? also, what experience with casters have you had that points you in this direction? (remember that your scale, as well as being different than other people's, may not be accurate itself)

Also there is a problem with mundane in 3.5 outside of ToB and that is after lvl 7 they are useless and not needed. The are to restricted with what they can do to the point it makes no sense. Why can't my tripper build stop practicing tripping without waiting a level which could be a day, year, or never again? Perhaps I should just call this Sell Sword (replacing ranger fighter monk barbarian and other mundane)
why are you so mad about mundanes? seriously? read my other post, and try and challenge yourself.

This class is less about hating casters and more about hating mundanes.
you're simply feeding the flames! you're not trying to put the fire out, you are trying to build a house next door.. out of wood.

additionally, you still haven't answered my questions:
A) what do you define as being "Fun"?
B) what is the goal of this class? to have "Fun", to make something that stands up to optimized casters in power, to make something that pounds other mundanes into the dust, *to allow for a certain theme to be played out easily, or something else?

*added as another suggestion

but really, you have to answer that first question.

Monks don't counter wizards... The word you are looking for is wizard

are you playing a strategy game or a role-playing game?

hint: the role-playing game is a bit more fun

Qwertystop

2013-06-06, 06:53 PM

Monks don't counter wizards... The word you are looking for is wizard

The post you quoted doesn't say anything about monks. It just says that Wizards are only really a problem if the person playing them doesn't get that it's not a game where you're competing against the other players.

eftexar

2013-06-06, 07:29 PM

Before I start pointing out all the bad game design Deaxsa seems to be spouting off, I'd like to point out how right he is about the in-cohesiveness of this class.
The abilities are far too specific to lend to a generalist build. All of them make it impossible to make any cohesive characters.
For example, I don't want leadership if I'm playing a lone vigilante, poison crafting is way out of place for a knight, and a barbarian smashing through the woods mightn't be so trackless.

Here's where I get a little confused undead hero. You argue mundanes are underpowered in core and, then, simultaneously, use that same core, referencing an underpowered class, to support your view that straitjacketing players into a rule, which indirectly limits power, is fine.
Both tie directly into each other so your two supporting arguments directly conflict with one another.

But Deaxsa why do you think mundanes are balanced? Have you seen the tier system at all? The only way spellcasters might function equally with the fighter is to drop them to 4th level spells. At which point the game is no longer High Fantasy (which D&D is).

This is just bad game design. A game should encourage players to play without being easy or unbalanced. Simply being 'challenging' is a shallow game that lacks depth.

The biggest flaw in your argument is the assumption that because the player's don't face each other inter-class balance doesn't matter is a logical fallacy. Just because A and B exist does not mean A + B = C.
Monsters are balanced to face players. So because they are balanced to face players then each player should be able to face those monsters equally. So I could just as easily argue it's more like A -> B <- C.

Deaxsa

2013-06-06, 07:57 PM

But Deaxsa why do you think mundanes are balanced? Have you seen the tier system at all? The only way spellcasters might function equally with the fighter is to drop them to 4th level spells. At which point the game is no longer High Fantasy (which D&D is).

hmm... let me see. i think that mundanes are balanced because i need a starting point, and why not use the bottom instead of the top? besides, the tier system is not really about ability, it's about versatility. barbarians are pretty amazing when it comes to melee combat... yet they are tier 4. which is one other reason i don't think using the low end of the spectrum is such a bad idea: because the low end can still be good at what it does. (that said, i'm not about to balance something around the commoner). i guess we just have different game goals? mine is to make sure every character has their niche. that's what i'm balancing around. it's just my preference. so yea, i'd say i balance around tier 3 or 4.

This is just bad game design. A game should encourage players to play without being easy or unbalanced. Simply being 'challenging' is a shallow game that lacks depth.

you lost me a bit here.. i'm not saying that this is the ideal way a game should play out, or that i, personally, am satisfied, with the 3.5 system. it's an imperfect system. but it's the system we are using, and as a player, why not challenge myself(or others) to make something effective out of the classes that are harder to play effectively?

The biggest flaw in your argument is the assumption that because the player's don't face each other inter-class balance doesn't matter is a logical fallacy. Just because A and B exist does not mean A + B = C.
Monsters are balanced to face players. So because they are balanced to face players then each player should be able to face those monsters equally. So I could just as easily argue it's more like A -> B <- C.

I'm not saying it does not matter. i'm saying that it only matters if you're paying with a bunch of people who are meaner rather than nicer. that's what i meant when i made this statement:

(i mean, as a wizard, i guess i COULD prepare a bunch of invisibility, knock, summon monster I, etc spells... or i could let the rogue actually be a rogue)

look, i'm not a very competitive person. i have always enjoyed working with people to succeed than working against them to succeed. and i just think that if you take DnD 3.5 with a grain of salt (okay, maybe a large block of it) and work with your friends rather than against them, you end up playing a game where everyone is much closer to balanced than one where you're a fighter archer, you're playing with 2 CoDzillas and a conjurer, and everyone is trying to achieve everything first.