[PF] Bardadin

[Rhynn]

I'm extremely familiar with 3.5, but a total noob when it comes to Pathfinder, and I'm curious if there's a way to do a good bard/paladin multiclass? Pathfinder in general seems to reward single-classing heavily, but that might just be my inability to really assess the value of all those class abilities. (So many class abilities!) Kinda like the monk-blindness new 3E players get...

Any build at all, but obviously I'd love to see different kinds. Doesn't have to be completely optimized, either, but obviously it shouldn't suck.

Alternatives (using cavalier, etc.) are cool, too - it's more about the concept (a paladin of the Harmonious Order of Milil, from the Forgotten Realms) than about the mechanics/classes. Music, joy, championing good, etc.

Sidenote: Is it me, or is the Empyreal Knight archetype's Voice of the Spheres the worst alternative class ability exchange ever? Is the rest of it supposed to be so powerful that Divine Grace needs to be taken away?

[Stormageddon]

Calavier/bard can go into PrC Battle Herald.

There is also a cleric alternate class that increases Inspire courage that might be worth looking into for the holy warrior feel.

[Slipperychicken]

What's the concept you're going for?

[Rhynn]

Like I said, a Paladin of the Harmonious Order of Milil. Pretty much standard bard crossed with standard paladin; Milil is the Lord of Songs, god of poetry and eloquence, patron and protector of singers and musicians. They are paladins with an emphasis on Charisma who regularly quest to, say, recover lost songs, protect musicians, etc. A very specialized niche, obviously, but they also do your standard paladin stuff, and make sure songs are sung about quests for good.

The particular character also has an affinity for Lliira (Our Lady of Joy), the goddess of dance, happiness, and joy. She was originally trained as a bard, and later joined the Harmonious Order. She's all about leading with encouragement and optimism, keeping up morale, and not just defeating evil but actually making people happy, too.

Really, though, any builds that work for the basic bard-paladin concept (or alternatives with a similar feel) are cool.

[avr]

A holy tactician (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/holy-tactician) paladin might give you the bard/paladin feel without having to actually multiclass, which PF doesn't encourage as much as 3.5 does.

Another alternative is a oracle/paladin multiclass - you take the Life mystery and the Life Link revelation, then use Lay on hands to keep yourself and others alive. Again, avoiding the bard/paladin multiclass because there's little PF support.

A bard might pick some masterpieces (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/masterpieces) which look paladinish.

[Bhaakon]

A cleric with the evangelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/evangelist) archetype gains bardic performance. It's designed for perform (oratory), but I think a reasonable DM would let you substitute other performance types.

[Psyren]

Sidenote: Is it me, or is the Empyreal Knight archetype's Voice of the Spheres the worst alternative class ability exchange ever? Is the rest of it supposed to be so powerful that Divine Grace needs to be taken away?

It is - though I will also say that full Summon Monster is a pretty powerful addition to any Paladin's repertoire. Unfortunately, you also lose Lay on Hands and Channel (Turn Undead) so the cost is pretty high - even though the creatures you gain are very useful, the end result doesn't feel much like a paladin anymore to me. A martially-built Oracle with the SM line would probably be a better way to play an Empyreal Knight, and she could even dip into Paladin to get Divine Grace anyway.

The EK's mount is slightly better than the standard paladin's too, but that's nothing a few buff spellscan't duplicate at the appropriate levels. Or just use Planar Ally (either as the aforementioned martial Oracle, or as a Sacred Servant Paladin.)

[Kudaku]

Though the paladin and bard have some synergy, the build can get a bit MAD - either you can't take benefit of the bard's spellcasting since you're wearing heavy armor, or you need a decent dexterity to make light armor viable. Furthermore Bard is a full caster, so you'll want as many levels in the class as possible to keep your spellcasting up to date. Finally, Smite Evil and Lay on Hands are heavily level-dependent. That said, Divine Grace is amazing for bards.

Bards make quite good archers by default, so why not combine the two? 2 levels of Divine Hunter gives you precise shot as well as all the default paladin goodies, and you lose heavy armor (which you don't want anyway), fill the rest up with a bard archetype to your liking.

Alternately, bard/paladin can absolutely wreck face in melee. Two levels of Sacred Shield paladin means you lose out on Smite Evil (which you won't really need) but it gives you Bastion of Good, which is incredibly funny. Everyone within 10 feet of you get a flat 50% damage reduction to all damage from the target of Bastion for the duration of the encounter, while you get Charisma to AC as a deflection modifier. Stack up on defensive buffs like Mirror Image and Displacement and enjoy the flurry of misses while your party dismantles the suddenly very feeble arch-villain.
On the other side of the build, the Dervish of Dawn/Dawnflower Dervish archetype is technically designed for Sarenrae, but your GM might let you open the archetype up to other deities. If he turns you down, the Dervish Dancer is not religion-specific and a decent replacement. Dervish Dance (the feat, not the archetype) means you use dexterity for to hit and damage instead of strength in melee, meaning strength is no longer a concern for your build. Double Inspire Courage bonuses means you'll have melee bonuses that'll easily rival a full bab class and you still have the bard spells and skill points to boot.

None of the builds I have suggested so far rely on any particular race, but I'd consider Aasimar (muse-touched) for +2 dex/+2 cha, darkvision, Glitterdust 1/day, and +2 to all your performance (handy for versatile performer) skills - or Human for the bonus feat. The archer bard in particular is a bit strapped for feats in the early game and human helps out there.

[GeekGirl]

If 3.5 stuff is allowed you could try From Smite to Song, from Champions of Valor. It lets you use a smite per day as inspire courage. may help from multi-classing.

[stack]

Use oath of vengeance on the paladin if you want to turn those weak lay hands into more smites, since you'll have very few with only a couple paladin levels. It would still require paladin 4, so not ideal.

[Coidzor]

I was asking a similar question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284806) a bit earlier, might find some of the thread interesting.

As it stands, so far it seems the best bet is to pick an archetype or a couple of archetypes that are more friendly to multiclassing than default PF, which is about as hostile as one can get without banning it or putting huge hoops to jump through.

[Slipperychicken]

Really, though, any builds that work for the basic bard-paladin concept (or alternatives with a similar feel) are cool.

You could just be a Paladin who sings a lot. Your songs don't have to be magical.

[grarrrg]

Sidenote: Is it me, or is the Empyreal Knight archetype's Voice of the Spheres the worst alternative class ability exchange ever? Is the rest of it supposed to be so powerful that Divine Grace needs to be taken away?

It is - though I will also say that full Summon Monster is a pretty powerful addition to any Paladin's repertoire. Unfortunately, you also lose Lay on Hands and Channel (Turn Undead) so the cost is pretty high - even though the creatures you gain are very useful, the end result doesn't feel much like a paladin anymore to me.

Basically what he said.
Archetypes are 'balanced' based on the WHOLE archetype, not on every individual piece.
(whether any given archetype truly winds up a more-or-less fair trade-off is a different story, but Empyreal is balanced enough)