Takhisis versus Tiamat

[Starwulf]

So, this is my first attempt at a versus thread. I'll readily admit I"m not to terribly familiar with Tiamat and her abilities, so I can't give a direct opinion on who I think would win.

So, the set-up is this: The two meet in a divine battleground, of neutral choosing(neither has the advantage in terms of terrain). Both can use their full range of abilities, and can summon any number of minions, both dragons that are under their command, and any clerics/priests or mages that worship them. Both are, to my knowledge, 5 headed dragons, and both are gods. Takhisis is from Dragonlance lore, and Tiamat is from general D&D lore.

Who wins, how close is the fight, and why do you think your pick would be the victor in this encounter?

[Kyberwulf]

Aren't they suppose to be the same god?

[SiuiS]

Aren't they suppose to be the same god?

Nope.

Takhisis may have been based on Tiamat, but as I recall they originated with different alignments and portfolios. A lot of Takhisis' pull and clout got lumped into Tiamat, though.

[Killer Angel]

Tiamat is well known across almost all D&D universes.
Takhisis belongs to a single setting.

Tiamat wins.

[Forum Explorer]

Aren't they suppose to be the same god?

Not exactly, Takhisis is heavily based on Tiamat and is incredibly similar but they are pretty different when it comes to their role in the total cosmology of their respective universes.

So on that note Takhsis. She commands the loyalty of all chromatic dragons, the draconian species, an army of fanatical knights, lots of clerics, and of course her own vast magical powers. (Oh demons and undead as well which are both much more powerful then their counterparts in Faerun) She's one of the Big 3 leader gods in the Parthenon while Tiamat is a minor god who doesn't even have her own plane of existance.

[Hopeless]

Not exactly, Takhisis is heavily based on Tiamat and is incredibly similar but they are pretty different when it comes to their role in the total cosmology of their respective universes.

So on that note Takhsis. She commands the loyalty of all chromatic dragons, the draconian species, an army of fanatical knights, lots of clerics, and of course her own vast magical powers. (Oh demons and undead as well which are both much more powerful then their counterparts in Faerun) She's one of the Big 3 leader gods in the Parthenon while Tiamat is a minor god who doesn't even have her own plane of existance.

Tiamat has her own animated tv series that was actually done properly enough that you know she'll wipe the floor with that pretender...:smallwink:

And to many of us the dungeons and dragons cartoon series has yet to be bettered... I excuse the Lord of the Rings because it has no multi-headed dragon and the Hobbit because we haven't seen Smaug properly and that has to be better if only to be worth watching!:smallbiggrin:

[BWR]

I remember annoying DL fans no end by saying the two were one. Ah, good times.

Given the idea that amount of belief = power, I'd give it to Tiamat, since she has lots of worlds while Takhisis has one. Takhisis also died in a rather ridiculous way. Tiamat is still going strong. OTOH, Tak has a lot of non-dragon worshippers while Tia is pretty much exclusivly dragons, so she may make up for belief-power there.

If belief =/= power, I honestly don't know. Tiamat could probably call on more dragons than Tak, which might help. Tak could probably force the DL Gods of Evil to help her, which would tip the scales in her favor.

Stat wise Tak is listed as a Greater Power while Tia is a Lesser Power, so that would obviously favor Tak.

So who would win?
Listed power level: Tak
Allies: undecided (how many allies does Tia have? enough to counter Krynn's evil gods?)
Minions: Tia

[Fjolnir]

Besides Takhisis and the black moon, what evil gods are there in Krynn?
Takhisis is worshipped by the minotaurs...

[Eldan]

I'll agree with the belief=power argument. Takhisis is a single-sphere power. Tiamat is universally revered by several races across many settings, including dragons. She has a pact with the 'yanki. She can probably call on favours from the Forces of Hell, even if she doesn't rule a layer anymore. She'll wipe the floor with Takhisis.

Now, neutral ground is difficult with gods. After all, they are only as powerful as the number of worshippers they have a in a sphere. Tiamat isn't worshipped in Krynnspace, as far as I know, and Takhisis isn't worshipped out of it. Something like the Astral might be neutral.

[Kyberwulf]

I think there are 9 Evil Gods, 9 Good Gods, and 9 Neutral gods. I can't remember. I know there had to be a balance between the Evil ones and the good ones. That is why Paladine had to step down.

[Eldan]

Ultimately, gods can only die if they have no worshippers left. So, this will be decided if Tiamat invades Krynnspace in full force. I'm thinking Githyanki pirates as a first strike, with a multiverse's worth of evil dragons and dragonspawn and some of Bel's armies close behind.

Tiamat can probably wipe out a good deal of Krynn, if she has to. Takhisis can never clean the multiverse of Tiamat worshippers.

[BWR]

Powers can be killed by other Powers, no matter how many worshippers they have.
Sometimes, though, the Powers don't die easily (just ask Orcus).

[Kyberwulf]

She may not be able to clean out all the followers of Tiamat. She can however take over as their god, without them really noticing. She and Tiamat are basically the same god. In the end, I don't think the followers really care about who gives them power. Just that they get power in the first place.

Besides. If Tak is a Greater Deity, and Tiamat is a Lesser one. It depends on who has the higher Divine rank. They would win.

[BWR]

I don't think either of them was officially stat'ed for 3.x.
But yeah, as I said before, if we are going by PS power levels, Tak will probably win, barring some sort of Last Word level shennanigans.

[Eldan]

She may not be able to clean out all the followers of Tiamat. She can however take over as their god, without them really noticing. She and Tiamat are basically the same god. In the end, I don't think the followers really care about who gives them power. Just that they get power in the first place.

Besides. If Tak is a Greater Deity, and Tiamat is a Lesser one. It depends on who has the higher Divine rank. They would win.

I'm pretty sure Tiamat's rank has changed over time. Currently, I think she's intermediate officially, but ranks can change from sphere to sphere.

[Foeofthelance]

Ultimately, gods can only die if they have no worshippers left. So, this will be decided if Tiamat invades Krynnspace in full force. I'm thinking Githyanki pirates as a first strike, with a multiverse's worth of evil dragons and dragonspawn and some of Bel's armies close behind.

Tiamat can probably wipe out a good deal of Krynn, if she has to. Takhisis can never clean the multiverse of Tiamat worshippers.

That's actually a very unlikely outcome. If Tiamat tried an open invasion of Krynn to dethrone Takhisis she wouldn't be dealing with one god, she'd be dealing with closer to thirty. Tak's one real big advantage in the Dragonlance series is that Balance must be maintained. In order for her to die, Paladine has to become mortal as well. So every Good and Neutral aligned force would come down on Tak's side, if only to protect Paladine. So the Githyanki pirates are going to be facing not one, but all three of Krynn's knightly Orders, the dragon's Tiamat brings with her are going to be facing all the Evil and Good dragons and their riders, and Bel's army is going to be facing off against everything the Dark gods can drag out of the Abyss to fight him. They'd be on foreign soil, and the longer they stay there the more chance anyone back home has to seize her allies' territory and hoards, so they're not going to want to stay long. Krynn has a heavy advantage defensively in that sort of situation.

[Fjolnir]

Indeed, they are charged by the High God who can unmake them all to keep the world in balance and will certainly toss their particular fight aside to go all out on divine invaders from beyond their sphere of influence.

[Thialfi]

If you went by the 1st edition statistics, a dozen Tiamats would not be a match for Takhisis.

[Eldan]

That's actually a very unlikely outcome. If Tiamat tried an open invasion of Krynn to dethrone Takhisis she wouldn't be dealing with one god, she'd be dealing with closer to thirty. Tak's one real big advantage in the Dragonlance series is that Balance must be maintained. In order for her to die, Paladine has to become mortal as well. So every Good and Neutral aligned force would come down on Tak's side, if only to protect Paladine. So the Githyanki pirates are going to be facing not one, but all three of Krynn's knightly Orders, the dragon's Tiamat brings with her are going to be facing all the Evil and Good dragons and their riders, and Bel's army is going to be facing off against everything the Dark gods can drag out of the Abyss to fight him. They'd be on foreign soil, and the longer they stay there the more chance anyone back home has to seize her allies' territory and hoards, so they're not going to want to stay long. Krynn has a heavy advantage defensively in that sort of situation.

Ah. That's what I get for not knowing Dragonlance. Where is Takhisis' divine realm located?

And could Tiamat be smart about it? Offer to take Takhisis' position and be a more reasonable queen of evil?

[Tork]

Who wins, how close is the fight, and why do you think your pick would be the victor in this encounter?


Neither, close, neither. They are both the same. They are both Greater Powers, they are both Gods. So it is an equal fight.

Though you could go in circles forever...like what rules do you use? Takhisis is listed as a Greater Power, but is a Single Sphere Power. So she only has a couple thousand worshipers at most. Tiamat is most often listed as a Lesser Power(or Intermediate) but is known and worshiped throughout the entire Multiverse. And then it depends on if your talking about Tiamat the Dragon God OR Tiamat the Mesopotamian God.

[lord_khaine]

If this challenge was done while Takhisis was still alive, then i would say the outcome would stronge favor her, being a major power. :smalltongue:

[Callos_DeTerran]

Takhisis is listed as a Greater Power, but is a Single Sphere Power. So she only has a couple thousand worshipers at most. Tiamat is most often listed as a Lesser Power(or Intermediate) but is known and worshiped throughout the entire Multiverse.

This matters less then you think. If a Lesser/Intermediate power goes up against a Greater power, the greater power will almost always win in a confrontation between the two. Especially since Tiamat has never shown an over-abundance of intelligence, being unable to rule her own plane and 'makes do' with renting out a part of the first layer of hell.

[Eldan]

Very few gods outside the abyss rule their own layers, though. Ruling all of an infinite space is near-impossible, unless the layer cooperates.

[Forum Explorer]

Very few gods outside the abyss rule their own layers, though. Ruling all of an infinite space is near-impossible, unless the layer cooperates.

Which Takhisis does. She rules over the entire Abyss and all of it's residents are under her command. (Except Raistlin)

[Eldan]

That must be some different Abyss, then, as she's never mentioned in any non-Krynn books. Probably a layer?

***

On Hallowed Ground gives us this:

Recently, however, the powers have abandoned their responsibility on Krynn, leaving the mortals to find their own fate (see the novel Dragons of Summer Flame). The gods moved on to the planes, taking the gamble that they'd be accepted fully by the powers already there. That's not an uncommon move for deities who've suffered under despotic overpowers, but it's a big risk - more pantheons have died that way than most powers'd care to admit.

and

Takhisis
Greater Power, "Queen of Darkness"
Lawful evil
AoC: Night, evil, hatred
Realm: Baator/Avernus/Absalom, the Nether Reaches

The same book gives Tiamat as a lesser power, ruling "Tiamat's Lair" on Avernus.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Very few gods outside the abyss rule their own layers, though. Ruling all of an infinite space is near-impossible, unless the layer cooperates.

Yet other gods do, but even those that don't rule an entire plane/demiplane (not all planes are infinite after all) at least rule their domain 'absolutely' and have almost the final word in that place. Tiamat is, to my knowledge, the only deity who can be evicted from hers at the whim of the arch-dukes/Asmodeus.

[BWR]

That holds true of any god in Baator, really.
The Lords of Nine are called such because they are the lords.

And no one outside the Abyss rules entire layers, much less entire planes, except IIRC Primus.

[Eldan]

Primus is probably restricted to the Modron domains of Regulus.

[Winter_Wolf]

All of the following is based on two things: memory, and editions before 3E. Takhisis and Tiamat are mutually exclusive and cannot exist in the same space. And yet, (per Spelljammer) one CAN travel between the crystal spheres that hold Krynn, Greyhawk (Oerth), and the Forgotten Realms (Abeir-Toril). Also, Krynnish Abyss is not the same thing as the Nine Hells or the Abyss.

Because gaping plot holes caused by Spelljammer.

That being said, I think Tiamat would take it, since Takhisis and all the other Krynnish deities "moved on" or whatever and aren't really there anymore. Based on memory or reading something somewhere in which all the gods up and left (after completely ignoring mortals for hundreds of years) after it became apparent that they couldn't not screw with mortals and each other and generally make things worse.

[Eldan]

Again, On Hallowed Ground says they moved on to the Planes of the Great Wheel and tried to make it on their own there, without an Overpower limiting them. No further mention of how that worked out for them.

[Forum Explorer]

That must be some different Abyss, then, as she's never mentioned in any non-Krynn books. Probably a layer?

***

On Hallowed Ground gives us this:

Recently, however, the powers have abandoned their responsibility on Krynn, leaving the mortals to find their own fate (see the novel Dragons of Summer Flame). The gods moved on to the planes, taking the gamble that they'd be accepted fully by the powers already there. That's not an uncommon move for deities who've suffered under despotic overpowers, but it's a big risk - more pantheons have died that way than most powers'd care to admit.

and

Takhisis
Greater Power, "Queen of Darkness"
Lawful evil
AoC: Night, evil, hatred
Realm: Baator/Avernus/Absalom, the Nether Reaches

The same book gives Tiamat as a lesser power, ruling "Tiamat's Lair" on Avernus.

Yeah it's a different Abyss. Dragonlance wasn't meant to mesh up with the other wizards products.

Problem is that they didn't abandon Krynn. It was a gamble on Takhisis part to gain sole control over Krynn which worked for a while til Paladin pulled a literal deus ex machina and by sacrificing himself made Takhisis mortal.

[ShadowFireLance]

Tiamat, The one true Dragon Queen.
:smallcool:

[Starwulf]

I have to say, you guys are awesome. I've actually learned quite a bit from the discussion this has brought forth. I never knew Takhisis was considered a "Greater Power" and that Tiamat was only a "Lesser/Intermediate" power. For some reason I always thought Tiamat was a Greater power as well, hence why I made the match up.

I will say though, I disagree that they are the same being. Yes they are both 5-headed Dragons, but Tiamat is strictly leader of the dragons basically, and while(from what I recall) has some followers, Takhisis isn't just the leader of the Chromatic Dragons, she is also the Goddess of Evil in general, and has Clerics and Mages alike who greatly worship her(though evil mages are split, as some worship her, and some worship the Black Moon God(I can't remember his name, it's been so freaking long since I've picked up a Dragonlance novel). From what I've been able to glean from this thread, Takhisis, if anything is a Hyper Competent version of Tiamat, or Tiamat is a joke version of Takhisis, LOL.

Also, the gamble of Takhisis being mentioned was part of a three part series iirc, "Dragons of a Lost Moon, Dragons of a something Sun, and one other". Also further detailed in Amber and Iron(I think that's the name). It was a good read, I kept hoping for Raistlin to come crashing down and banish Takhisis away from Krynn again, LOL. But he had to give up all of his powers in order to move onto the after-life, so bleh.

[Forum Explorer]

I have to say, you guys are awesome. I've actually learned quite a bit from the discussion this has brought forth. I never knew Takhisis was considered a "Greater Power" and that Tiamat was only a "Lesser/Intermediate" power. For some reason I always thought Tiamat was a Greater power as well, hence why I made the match up.

I will say though, I disagree that they are the same being. Yes they are both 5-headed Dragons, but Tiamat is strictly leader of the dragons basically, and while(from what I recall) has some followers, Takhisis isn't just the leader of the Chromatic Dragons, she is also the Goddess of Evil in general, and has Clerics and Mages alike who greatly worship her(though evil mages are split, as some worship her, and some worship the Black Moon God(I can't remember his name, it's been so freaking long since I've picked up a Dragonlance novel). From what I've been able to glean from this thread, Takhisis, if anything is a Hyper Competent version of Tiamat, or Tiamat is a joke version of Takhisis, LOL.

Also, the gamble of Takhisis being mentioned was part of a three part series iirc, "Dragons of a Lost Moon, Dragons of a something Sun, and one other". Also further detailed in Amber and Iron(I think that's the name). It was a good read, I kept hoping for Raistlin to come crashing down and banish Takhisis away from Krynn again, LOL. But he had to give up all of his powers in order to move onto the after-life, so bleh.

Speaking of Raistlin
I love that scene where the gods are like "We don't know where the world is wah!" And Raistlin shows up and just goes "It's right over there."

[Otomodachi]

A couple things mentioned-

The black moon god is Nuitari, the the god the minotaurs worship is Sargas (properly Sargonnas) who is sort of a angry might/wrath god.

Sargas and Takhisis are actually fairly evenly matched. The two of them actually created Nuitari, and the minor evil sea deity Zeboim.

Takhisis is a grade-A BMF and if I were Tiamat, I would stay the heck away. :D

[SoC175]

being unable to rule her own plane and 'makes do' with renting out a part of the first layer of hell.This actually applies to Takhisis as well, the krynnisch are just to stupid to realized the first layer of Baator is not the Abyss

[BWR]

Yeah, that's what I told the DL-fans back in the day, and that's what Planescape says. I've grown up a little since then.

I prefer PS to DL, but when it comes right down to it, DL was created as its own setting with its own cosmology. Sure, since TSR owned the rights they could shove it into whatever super-setting they wished, but that's not how it was created or how the authors intended it to be. I am more than willing to accept Tak as living in the Abyss, which is not the same as the PS Abyss.
If you are going to argue versus in this manner you should take the parties on their own terms if at all possible. Otherwise you are just artificially stacking the deck in the other party's favor.

[Starwulf]

Yeah, that's what I told the DL-fans back in the day, and that's what Planescape says. I've grown up a little since then.

I prefer PS to DL, but when it comes right down to it, DL was created as its own setting with its own cosmology. Sure, since TSR owned the rights they could shove it into whatever super-setting they wished, but that's not how it was created or how the authors intended it to be. I am more than willing to accept Tak as living in the Abyss, which is not the same as the PS Abyss.
If you are going to argue versus in this manner you should take the parties on their own terms if at all possible. Otherwise you are just artificially stacking the deck in the other party's favor.

My OP did state they meet in a Neutral Divine Battleground(divine as god realm).

[BWR]

That's not the point of my post, nor was it directed at you.
The point was in versus scenarios one should try to interpret each party in the terms of their own universe as much as possible and not on on the basis of other universes.
After all, we are discussing the D&D Tiamat, not the 'real' Tiamat. By the same token we should use the Takhisis as portrayed in Dragonlance, not in Planescape.
If we were to discuss "me versus Tiamat", it would be pointless for me to say "I win because I'm real and Tiamat isn't".

[Killer Angel]

The point was in versus scenarios one should try to interpret each party in the terms of their own universe as much as possible and not on on the basis of other universes.

Usually, in Vs scenarios, everone tend to pick the most favoreable conditions to support his side... :smalltongue:

[BWR]

Unfortuntely, yes. I'm one of those who thinks that the only interesting and meaningful (for a given value of 'meaning') way to do it is to try to do it fairly and based on as objective stuff as possible.
The morons who just spout off "X is super because he's awesome and can't be beat" or whatever variants just pollute the discussion.

[Eldan]

Well, I see two "objective" ways to measure god power.

One is divine rank. Tiamat loses, she's intermediate or even lesser.

The other is number of worshippers. Takhisis loses, she only has one world to draw on.

[Starwulf]

Well, I see two "objective" ways to measure god power.

One is divine rank. Tiamat loses, she's intermediate or even lesser.

The other is number of worshippers. Takhisis loses, she only has one world to draw on.

This is going to be horrifically cliche, but!!!!!, lol, Raistlin. That's the only worshiper Takhisis needs to summon. Raistlin with his power managed to take down Takhisis in the alternate timeline, as well as every other god out there, several of which were "Greater power" tier. Don't think Tiamat has anyone that can match up to him.

/endfanboism

Realistically, while Tiamat has worshipers across an entire multi-verse, iirc a Gods power is derived from their worshipers. So if Tiamat is still considered ONLY an intermediate power at best, she must not have very many worshipers at all.

Then again, you have Ao, who is basically an Overgod, but doesn't really have many worshipers at all considering he is not very well known, and he could trounce Tiamat and Takhisis with both hands tied behind his back, so I'm not really sure how much of an effect worshipers have on a gods over-all power level.

[Forum Explorer]

This is going to be horrifically cliche, but!!!!!, lol, Raistlin. That's the only worshiper Takhisis needs to summon. Raistlin with his power managed to take down Takhisis in the alternate timeline, as well as every other god out there, several of which were "Greater power" tier. Don't think Tiamat has anyone that can match up to him.

/endfanboism

Realistically, while Tiamat has worshipers across an entire multi-verse, iirc a Gods power is derived from their worshipers. So if Tiamat is still considered ONLY an intermediate power at best, she must not have very many worshipers at all.

Then again, you have Ao, who is basically an Overgod, but doesn't really have many worshipers at all considering he is not very well known, and he could trounce Tiamat and Takhisis with both hands tied behind his back, so I'm not really sure how much of an effect worshipers have on a gods over-all power level.

I don't think you can count Raistlin as a worshipper of any god. (Except perhaps the gods of magic)

[Eldan]

Overgods specifically never have worshippers, though some theorize the gods may worship them.

[Starwulf]

Overgods specifically never have worshippers, though some theorize the gods may worship them.

Where do they get their power from them? How does one become an overgod anyways? Do you just reach a certain threshold/age as a powerful, but regular, god, and "evolve" like a pokemon?

[Eldan]

As far as I know, the answer is "Who the heck knows, they just are".

[Cheesegear]

I don't think you can count Raistlin as a worshipper of any god. (Except perhaps the gods of magic)

As a Wizard of Krynn, he specifically has to worship one of the Moon Gods, first with Red Robes, then Black.

[Starwulf]

As far as I know, the answer is "Who the heck knows, they just are".

Bah. Why do the creators of D&D not give more information on stuff like that? That's the kind of stuff I enjoy reading/learning about! So many things that are just left unexplained that shouldn't be. For example, at the end of the Avatar series, Ao is talking to HIS superiors about the whole thing, it was basically a "test". Who or what could be the superior to a freaking Overgod? Why don't we get to find out more about them?? Why even bother mentioning them if they don't even play a role in any future events? So frustrating :-(

[Forum Explorer]

As a Wizard of Krynn, he specifically has to worship one of the Moon Gods, first with Red Robes, then Black.

Didn't stop Raistlin
From murdering their faces off in the alternative timeline.

[Eldan]

Bah. Why do the creators of D&D not give more information on stuff like that? That's the kind of stuff I enjoy reading/learning about! So many things that are just left unexplained that shouldn't be. For example, at the end of the Avatar series, Ao is talking to HIS superiors about the whole thing, it was basically a "test". Who or what could be the superior to a freaking Overgod? Why don't we get to find out more about them?? Why even bother mentioning them if they don't even play a role in any future events? So frustrating :-(

Hm. A few reasons I can see.

First, there's always questions you don't answer, if you go further up. Unsatisfying, I know.

Second, grey spaces are intriguing. They give you something to fill in yourself.

Third, grey spaces are important. The Lady of Pain is a good example. A backstory or even defined abilities would destroy her. Some things should not be defined, because every definition would be disappointing.

Not that I don't agree with you, mind you.

[Cheesegear]

First, there's always questions you don't answer, if you go further up. Unsatisfying, I know.

It's turtles all the way up, too, don't you know?

[Eldan]

Nono, up is squirrels. The lady proves that.

[Metahuman1]

Nono, up is squirrels. The lady proves that.

So does Squirrel Girl, when she beats the planet Conquering new herald of Galactus (Terrax, if I'm spelling that right.) Dr. Doom (Yes, took over the world twice and gave it up cause he got board guy.), and Thanos WITH the Infinity Gauntlet (The dude that the entire rest of the combined marvel universe couldn't beat.), each in a one on one confrontation.

[Forum Explorer]

Regarding that power derived from worshippers thing; that doesn't hold true in DL. The Gods were just as powerful as they always were even when almost no one was worshipping them. It's just their ability to affect the mortal world that is determined by their worshippers since they generally have to act through them.

[Eldan]

Hm. I see. That is rather an exception in D&D lore, then. In that case, Takhisis can probably win this, as she doesn't have an easily targetable weakness in her worshippers.

[Hopeless]

This is going to be horrifically cliche, but!!!!!, lol, Raistlin. That's the only worshiper Takhisis needs to summon. Raistlin with his power managed to take down Takhisis in the alternate timeline, as well as every other god out there, several of which were "Greater power" tier. Don't think Tiamat has anyone that can match up to him.

/endfanboism

Tiamat looks down at Raistlin.
"Seriously?" she rasps raising a single one of her dragon head eyelids.
Raistlin tries a few spells only to discover Tiamat is indestructible.

(Please note this is stated in the cartoon and Venger has tried to defeat Tiamat on numerous occasions and are you seriously suggesting Raistlin is more powerful than the guy whose patron is quite possibly Cthulhu?
Feel free to point out any errors but please remember this isn't an attempt at flame war, ok?)

Waiting him out she lurches suddenly and says, "Wait here a moment there's someone I want to introduce to you.." she says taking flight as Raistlin ducks.

Tiamat disappears for a few minutes before all of a sudden she reappears and drops a large man with a black cape and what seems like one horn on his head.

"Here this is Venger, the human in the black robes says he's more powerful than you feel free to confer, I could use a good laugh and since those children aren't available I guess that leaves you two!" Tiamat laughs.

Raistlin vs Venger any takers?:smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Besides Takhisis and the black moon, what evil gods are there in Krynn?
Takhisis is worshipped by the minotaurs...
Hiddukel (god of greed), Morgion (god of disease), Zeboim (the Sea Queen), Chemosh (god of the undead)...
And actually the minotaurs' patron is Sargonnas, Takhisis' consort. I don't remember if there are others, but they shouldn't be hard to google anyway.


That must be some different Abyss, then, as she's never mentioned in any non-Krynn books. Probably a layer?

Actually, it's not even part of the Abyss. The D&D material for Dragonlance clarifies that anyone from Krynn who goes to "the Abyss" looking for Takhisis gets rerouted to her actual domain in Baator, without ever knowing they didn't arrive at the Abyss.

This is going to be horrifically cliche, but!!!!!, lol, Raistlin. That's the only worshiper
Raistlin is not a worshiper of Takhisis, or of any god at the point where he has universe-shaking power.

As a Wizard of Krynn, he specifically has to worship one of the Moon Gods, first with Red Robes, then Black.
Those rules are for PCs. Being a rogue wizard, not subject to any of the Gods of Magic, is NPC only--in part because it means every standard mage will treat you as a criminal to be apprehended or killed on sight, and it also makes you strictly weaker than a Tower mage unless you're actually powerful enough that having to worry about the dictates of distant gods is a poor trade for the power the gods of magic give their worshipers--but that doesn't mean it's a physical impossibility.

[Forum Explorer]

Tiamat looks down at Raistlin.
"Seriously?" she rasps raising a single one of her dragon head eyelids.
Raistlin tries a few spells only to discover Tiamat is indestructible.

(Please note this is stated in the cartoon and Venger has tried to defeat Tiamat on numerous occasions and are you seriously suggesting Raistlin is more powerful than the guy whose patron is quite possibly Cthulhu?
Feel free to point out any errors but please remember this isn't an attempt at flame war, ok?)

Waiting him out she lurches suddenly and says, "Wait here a moment there's someone I want to introduce to you.." she says taking flight as Raistlin ducks.

Tiamat disappears for a few minutes before all of a sudden she reappears and drops a large man with a black cape and what seems like one horn on his head.

"Here this is Venger, the human in the black robes says he's more powerful than you feel free to confer, I could use a good laugh and since those children aren't available I guess that leaves you two!" Tiamat laughs.

Raistlin vs Venger any takers?:smallbiggrin:

I don't know who Venger is but I do know that Raistlin
Literally managed to kill every living thing in the universe. Oh and destroyed the stars as well. Something even Cthulhu has never been able to do.

Basically? I'd say Raistlin is more powerful then Cthulhu. Well at his absolute height which does admittedly involve becoming a god. But becoming a god basically needed him to wage war on all of the gods, and he won.

[BWR]

The other is number of worshippers. Takhisis loses, she only has one world to draw on.

There are a few problems with this.
1) is belief the same? Is the belief of a dragon as powerful as the belief of a human? Does it grant the same benfit? Does strength of personal belief enter in? (probably but never actually specified, IIRC. I would have a hard time thinking that the 20th level cleric of some god gives the same amount of belief as Johnny the 1st level commoner who goes to church once a month or so.)
Is a little worship on weekends as filling as prayers five times a day?

2) how many dragons actually worship Tiamat? Dragons are rather rare and we really have no idea how many there are or how many worship Tiamat. If you have a total 100 000 worshippers spread out over 1000 planets you are still less worshipped than someone with a million followers on one planet.

I agree gray areas are fun, but I'm always pushing to find out what's inside then.

[Fjolnir]

1)didn't raistlin also wear the white at some point?

2)I doubt you can call him a proper worshipper of any god, but especially not takhisis, whom he betrays a few times in a few ways...

[Forum Explorer]

1)didn't raistlin also wear the white at some point?

2)I doubt you can call him a proper worshipper of any god, but especially not takhisis, whom he betrays a few times in a few ways...

1) not really. His very very first teacher was a white robed wizard and as one of his students Raistlin was expected (and did) wear white out of respect. However he was never one of the white wizards.

2) Too true.

[lunasmeow]

Well, for all those naysayers who denied it based on foolish licensing reasons (because that was the only REAL reason it was done originally anyway) now that WotC owns TSR, they have fully come out and flat out said that Takhisis IS Tiamat, just on another world, as I have always insisted.

Fizban's Treasury of Dragons (Page 52 of the PDF):

On many worlds, Humanoids worship Bahamut and Tiamat as gods. On Krynn, they are the greatest among the gods, though they are known there as Paladine and Takhisis and are not always pictured as dragons.

Also, apparently a ton of people in this thread know literally NOTHING about Tiamat (Faerun specifically). She is not "primarily worshipped by dragons" there. She may be a Dragon God, but she is primarily worshipped by non-dragons. Dragons in Faerun, specifically stopped worshipping their gods for a very long time, and only recently started up again. Furthermore, Tiamat was offered to rule her own level of Hell, but turned the offer down becasue she didn't want to. She preferred only guarding the gate to the second layer to running the entire first layer. The duty that went with it wasn't something she enjoyed. Also, strength of Gods varies on different Crystal Spheres. Some places she is Lesser, others Intermediate, Others Greater. It varies by both time and place. Finally, since Takhisis is Tiamat... any claims of what Takhisis can do just goes back to Tiamat anyway, as they're the same God.

Weiss and Hickman literally asmitted it was "licensing" issues keeping them separate before, and with that out of the way Wizards did something right for once, and merged the two as they always should have been. Just looking at not only the design of the characters, but their alternate names in Krynn could (and should!) have told you that.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Even coastal wizards don't have power over Thread Necromancy.