Questions about Low-Magic Campaigns

[BowStreetRunner]

I've been intrigued by a number of threads out there discussing the idea of running a low-magic campaign. From what I have seen, there are multiple reasons people are interested in doing this. Also, while everyone seems to agree it is very challenging to pull this off in 3.X or Pathfinder, there have been different arguments made about what are the major problems with such a campaign.

I would like to poll the playground to see what the prevailing views are about this subject. If you have an opinion, please try to answer any or all of the following questions for me:


What reason would you give for wanting to be part of a low-magic campaign instead of the default level of magic in the game?
What exactly does the idea of a 'low magic' campaign actually mean to you? How would it be different from a normal campaign?
What do you see as the biggest challenges to making a low-magic campaign work using 3.x, pathfinder, d20 rules?


I think I already know what some of the answers are going to be, but have tried to keep the language of my questions neutral so as not to sway anyone's response.

[Xervous]

1. I like to avoid the christmas tree effect, where most players are defined in near totality by what gear they have equipped. By not feeding the players a steady IV drip of magic items, these things become special because they are not the norm.

2. Low magic campaign vs. normal campaign. Fewer magic items, fewer spellcasters, specific creatures with magical origins are going to be harder to find. And then there's the way NPCs will react to magic; since its rare, superstition and the like will show up. Extraplanar stuff is unlikely unless this is some sort of "once in a thousand years" sort of plot.

3. Two biggest problems:
A: The game is designed with the bonuses characters get from items taken into account as part of their progression, remove this and you run into serious trouble with mundanes. This is why I like a fix that gives you bonuses as you level up like this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1003.msg6651#msg6651).
B: Magical healing is the only healing worth anything. A properly implemented house rule on the heal skill can alleviate this. Its INCREDIBLY easier to pitch if you are treating HP as stamina/coolness-points/etc instead of meat.

[Arc_knight25]

1) I like low magic campaigns because it makes the players rely more on what spells they have and to optimize there characters more. You'll need your casters to buff your fighters to get through that magic DR rather then just having the +1 sword to do it. I think Low Magic campaigns are good for those trying to learn the game as well as those more experienced to challenge themselves as opposed to just buying items that can make a campaign set to easy mode.

2)To me a low magic campaign is one that lacks magical items of any kind. Means your going to need a balanced party, and not just Magic your way through with items. Casters will still be powerful just have to be better prepared with there spells. The party will rely heavily on there casters for the support to get through encounters.

3)Combat for none casters. They are going to rely on the casters to buff their weapons. Classes with good skill will still be useful outside of combat.

All of this doesn't really take effect till later when creatures begin to have DR of the magic or alignment variety. Metal DR's can be managed through Masterwork weapons and the like. Of course even in a low magic campaign there will be some magical weapons available, but not in the abundance as a normal or high magic campaign.

[Eldariel]

What reason would you give for wanting to be part of a low-magic campaign instead of the default level of magic in the game?

I'm playing one right now. The primary incentive was to try out the smaller details of the system. If you look sharply, between DMG and PHB there are rules for heat hazards, cold, all manners of mundane movement and so on; things that never come up are modeled very carefully (with varying degrees of accuracy).

Those actually work somewhat decently. However, I'd still use another system for low magic play if it weren't for one thing: Tome of Battle. Expanded Tome of Battle is one of the most functional and frankly, fun combat systems I've ever played in any pen'n'paper (and I've played WoD, Paranoia, Fudge, GURPS, various indie systems, basically all editions of D&D).

Now, the primary incentive for me to play no-magic/low-magic games is to highlight the best part of 3.5, Tome of Battle, while removing all the chaff. Sure, you gotta throw CR and such out of the window, but whatever, experienced DMs did that already anyways since the system is only barely functional and you inadvertedly fix the Christmas Tree effect while at it (though I do recommend Class Defense Bonus of some kind and more detailed system for mundane craftsmanship if removing magic weapons). Oh, and PF poison rules are pretty good.



What exactly does the idea of a 'low magic' campaign actually mean to you? How would it be different from a normal campaign?

Eh, "low-magic" means to me what it means to DM; I don't have a single definition and indeed, no interest in developing one since it can mean so many different things.

Things I'd expect in low-magic is removal of full caster classes and removal of common magic items in large parts. It could also mean removal of PC casters or casters entirely, as well as the removal of magic items.



What do you see as the biggest challenges to making a low-magic campaign work using 3.x, pathfinder, d20 rules?


You have to rework some rules; e.g. AC is completely magic item-based after the early levels so that'd have to be reworked. Healing is also something that has to be handled differently if combat is going to be commonplace but healing magic isn't easily accessible; we use the Wound Point/Vitality Point system with some modifications and it's working quite well.

And of course, you have to ignore CR, not use monsters that don't make sense (or rather, make sure that monsters that they are meant to fight can be killed; things like incorporeality become much more potent without easy access to magic).

But overall, it's not hard. The biggest question is why you want to use 3.X specifically for a low-magic game, but there are of course many possible reasons for that (system familiarity, fascination with certain parts of the system, etc.).

[Zubrowka74]

1. I like to avoid the christmas tree effect, where most players are defined in near totality by what gear they have equipped. By not feeding the players a steady IV drip of magic items, these things become special because they are not the norm.

This, exactly. Also, "magic-marts" where everything is available in infinite quantities has always anoyed me. If it were so, mundane tasks would be taken over by magical process. It works in the right kind of setting, Tippyverse or other high-magic world, but not in your run-of-the-mill "medieval" fantasy.



2. Low magic campaign vs. normal campaign. Fewer magic items, fewer spellcasters, specific creatures with magical origins are going to be harder to find. And then there's the way NPCs will react to magic; since its rare, superstition and the like will show up. Extraplanar stuff is unlikely unless this is some sort of "once in a thousand years" sort of plot.

And low-magic doesn't mean no magic. if you want to introduce some DR x/magic critters you can always have the party quest for an appropriate weapon / item.


3. Two biggest problems:
A: The game is designed with the bonuses characters get from items taken into account as part of their progression, remove this and you run into serious trouble with mundanes. This is why I like a fix that gives you bonuses as you level up like this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1003.msg6651#msg6651).
B: Magical healing is the only healing worth anything. A properly implemented house rule on the heal skill can alleviate this. Its INCREDIBLY easier to pitch if you are treating HP as stamina/coolness-points/etc instead of meat.

Well, if magic is rare, it should be for everyone. This means that enemies will have accès to fewer magics and fantastical beasts will be far and between. You could tone down encounters a little but of course if there's casters in the party, they'll be stronger because of that. I like to require that wizards find their new spells instead of having them just appear in their spellbooks. Evens out the gap a little and give you more control on what spell gets flung by who. It can encourage research, wich is not a bad thing because if a PC is to become an Archmage, might as well have a few spells with their name on it.

[Eldariel]

And low-magic doesn't mean no magic. if you want to introduce some DR x/magic critters you can always have the party quest for an appropriate weapon / item.

It's fully possible to engage such creatures without the appropriate weapons, anyways. Even the Tarrasque can be taken down by a level 20 warrior with a masterwork weapon.

DR/magic does become more meaningful if magic weapon access isn't trivial though and such creatures do become far more dangerous, especially to hordes of low level creatures (e.g. your average town guard) that rely on the number of weak attacks to take targets down (plothook?).

[Gavinfoxx]

Dr/Magic can be fought, but some other stuff can't.

Seeing as how a level 1000 Fighter with no magic items and no access to anything Su will lose to a level 2 Allip.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Dr/Magic can be fought, but some other stuff can't.

Seeing as how a level 1000 Fighter with no magic items and no access to anything Su will lose to a level 2 Allip.

What if he has a Serrenwood Greatclub?

[Gavinfoxx]

What if he has a Serrenwood Greatclub?

Yes, because anyone can get to Arvandor in Arborea in a low magic game... >.>

[Arc_knight25]

It takes a diligent DM and a willing party to make a low magic campaign fun. You still want everyone to be having fun. So throwing alot of creatures with DR really can exaust spells quickly, which means the party can't go through as many encounters, which could also mean that combat takes forever because the PC's are nickel and diming the creatures.

I have a group of new players for the most part that I am DMing very casually. I intend to make it low magic campaign, may they know it or not. just so they get an idea of how the game works. What spells are needed when, what types of creatures need what type of damage to get through DR. I intend to make that campaign more about learning so in future campaigns there player knowledge is better, which in turn I hope makes there RPing better.

Tangent
So i asked that the party have a rogueish character (ie, rogue, scout, beguiler, etc.) to be able to find traps. No one picked up the role so, Kobalds for them. Lots of traps, What should take them one night to clear is now going to take more because no one can find the traps to disarm them so people have fallen through holes, taken arrows to the knees and more of that ilk. We haven't played much since we are mostly running with a newish DM and his campaign, I'm the most experienced of the group, so most questions come my way.

[Tork]

1. Other then to just ''have more fun'', many like Low Magic campaigns as they are easy, simple and straight forward. It's the same reason must fantasy movies, like LotR or Star Wars have low magic(or tech). LotR is a perfect example: Gandalf could have solved the plot in seconds: 1)Get Frodo and ring 2)Summon Big Bird 3)Fly over to Mt. Doom and drop the ring 4) Cake and ice cream in the Shire. But Gandalf did not do that, of course....

2. No spells, no magic items, no fantasy just dirt and grit.

3.The rules just don't support it. A spellcaster gets way too much power in a world where everyone else just has dirt. Monsters get over powered in the same way. And character's have a much harder time doing things.

[wayfare]

3) Im going to answer this first because it really influences teh other two questions. Full casters are really powerful, especially when they have full access to all printed spells. Things get nasty fast in core, but once you break into metamagic Op, you have low level spells that are draining levels, creating zombies, dealing double maximized damage, etc, etc. Full casters without limits are just super powerful -- that why teh Sorcerer, even with his smaller spell list, is still Tier 2 -- freely choosing between all that material just gives you too much versatility.

Characters are not defined by what they can do when full casters are around. They are defined by what they CANNOT do -- any cleric or wizard can fight as well as a fighter, but only a fighter cant fly without outside assistance. Saying "my character is a master thief" in a full-caster universe is almost silly unless you are a caster -- who else can invisibly enter an area, trigger a trap remotely, levitate all the loot in teh area to him, and teleport away before anyobody notices?

2) I try to run low magic games, and that mostly means no Casters with universal spell access. You can play a Warmage or a Dread necromancer, or we can brew up a class if you want something a bit different that what published material allows. Wands and staves are very rare and hold 10 charges, max.
On teh flip, Magic weapons and armor are still relatively easy to find. Crafting magic gear is a discipline of crafting, rather than something that requires casting.

1) My players responded pretty well to teh style change, largely because we previously had a Druid/Wizard party and everybody else felt kinda useless after level 4 or so. This evens teh playing field a bit for non-casters.

[Coidzor]

This, exactly. Also, "magic-marts" where everything is available in infinite quantities has always anoyed me. If it were so, mundane tasks would be taken over by magical process. It works in the right kind of setting, Tippyverse or other high-magic world, but not in your run-of-the-mill "medieval" fantasy.

Usually they're just a strawman, thankfully. :smallwink:

[Averis Vol]

Dr/Magic can be fought, but some other stuff can't.

Seeing as how a level 1000 Fighter with no magic items and no access to anything Su will lose to a level 2 Allip.

Nine words. "Full round with a towel soaked in holy water" :smalltongue:

[Gavinfoxx]

And what makes holy water? The Bless Water spell, which requires a level 1 Cleric or Favored Soul or Mystic to make it...

[Averis Vol]

It is in the mundane supplies as special substances, which makes it open to easy purchase. Also, this is a "low" (not no) magic world, so it still exists as long as there are churches.

[Palanan]

A first-level cleric spell sounds pretty low-magic to me.

:smalltongue:

[Gavinfoxx]

It is in the mundane supplies as special substances, which makes it open to easy purchase. Also, this is a "low" (not no) magic world, so it still exists as long as there are churches.

Really? What if there aren't any T2 or T1 classes in the setting, and the best you can get is a Religious Adept, Ranger, midlevel Paladins, or Prestige Paladins? The stuff would be much, much rarer.

Even the equipment list (alchemy requires you to be a spellcaster!!) assumes high magic availability. Hell, the equipment list especially assumes this.

[Averis Vol]

Really? What if there aren't any T2 or T1 classes in the setting, and the best you can get is a Religious Adept, Ranger, midlevel Paladins, or Prestige Paladins? The stuff would be much, much rarer.

Even the equipment list (alchemy requires you to be a spellcaster!!) assumes high magic availability. Hell, the equipment list especially assumes this.

I expected Religious Adepts to be making this stuff in the first place, as no self respecting cleric would waste his time on a 2d4 damage consumable. It also says any of those items except holy water and ever burning torches can be made with craft alchemy, though it never explicitly states what goes into making it after that (unless you know something I don't, which is a very probable thing.)

[Tvtyrant]

I've been intrigued by a number of threads out there discussing the idea of running a low-magic campaign. From what I have seen, there are multiple reasons people are interested in doing this. Also, while everyone seems to agree it is very challenging to pull this off in 3.X or Pathfinder, there have been different arguments made about what are the major problems with such a campaign.

I would like to poll the playground to see what the prevailing views are about this subject. If you have an opinion, please try to answer any or all of the following questions for me:


What reason would you give for wanting to be part of a low-magic campaign instead of the default level of magic in the game?
What exactly does the idea of a 'low magic' campaign actually mean to you? How would it be different from a normal campaign?
What do you see as the biggest challenges to making a low-magic campaign work using 3.x, pathfinder, d20 rules?



1. Low magic worlds are more capable of housing societies analogous to real life. The moment you introduce 50 GP everburning torches you have radically altered everything, as they last forever and will eventually accumulate to levels similar to modern electric lighting (or more.) Daylight spell attached to a Hallow spell makes modern farming seem tame, as you can grow crops underground/anywhere and do so with 24 hour/day sunlight. In fact the spell Hallow with its accompanying spells alone would shatter the medieval/ancient paradigm. Zone of Truth courts, endure elements towns in the arctic, silenced libraries, tongues spells on marketplaces, etc.

I generally associate low magic with low levels (E6) and lower powered enemies as well. In a world of Mindflayers high populations are already hard to justify, low magic high populations would simply be extinct.

2. It would have a hard cap on available goods (nothing that requires a CL of over 6) and a similar hard cap on what casters could cast in the world. It would have a slightly softer cap on enemies, but it would scale similarly. An elephant or Colossal Centipede are okay for going over CR 6, but a Babau or other outsider is none existent.

The afterlife/gods would have almost nothing directly to do with the game. No avatars running around, no demon hordes, etc. The world is a mostly mundane one where an Owlbear or Gryphon is a common sight, but a Vampire is a rare and appalling abomination.

Travel would be dependent on actually walking/riding from place to place, and the exploration is a major aspect of the game.

3. Magical diseases/level drain/lack of magical healing. There are lots of "you suddenly suck" monsters and traps in D&D, and without high level magic being available they ruin characters. Even poisons that damage instead of drain stats take a long time to recover from, and make the character less fun to play while they are in effect. The worst offender is probably the Lich's permanent paralysis ability, as there is no cure for it. Bam! Coma.

[Gavinfoxx]

Sorry, but Holy Water needs a capital C Cleric, not an Adept, and can't be made with Craft Alchemy.

[Averis Vol]

Even so, that is still easily within the means of a low magic world, especially because without it the entire world would be an undead wasteland.

[Gavinfoxx]

Even so, that is still easily within the means of a low magic world, especially because without it the entire world would be an undead wasteland.

Ah, now we are getting somewhere... perhaps, hmmm, it is a world both without clerics, and without several types of undead? Hmm? Because otherwise, the world WOULD be completely owned by the monsters, and a wasteland? Perhaps it is... I don't know... an actual low magic world?

[Tvtyrant]

Sorry, but Holy Water needs a capital C Cleric, not an Adept, and can't be made with Craft Alchemy.

Bless Water is also on the Paladin spell list. Even banning tier 1s does not get rid of Holy Water. It does however require a much higher level of character to make (6th level.) Temples would likely still produce it to sell, it would just be less temples.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, level 6 paladins should be very very rare in low magic games, though, too...

[Averis Vol]

Ah, now we are getting somewhere... perhaps, hmmm, it is a world both without clerics, and without several types of undead? Hmm? Because otherwise, the world WOULD be completely owned by the monsters, and a wasteland? Perhaps it is... I don't know... an actual low magic world?

Low magic worlds are an in game mechanic that should be balanced both in the PC's and in the monsters that inhabit it. you should never have a no magic world, strictly because many interesting creatures have resistances only normal steel can't handle.

Als, lets be honest, low magic is already questionable, and I've changed the one I run into a more or less normal game because of boredom, but no magic would just be no fun at all.

[Hecuba]

Yea, level 6 paladins should be very very rare in low magic games, though, too...

Bless water is a way of making holy water. It is not explicitly the only way: just the only way available to player characters.

There is nothing that says that temples to all good deities have clerics, and there is a rule that says that temples to good deities all make and sell holy water at cost.

Heck-- the real-world methods several organized religions use to make holy water might fall under the presumed transparency guidance in the DMG (that is oh so consistently applied). Anyone have some real-world undead we can test against?

[BowStreetRunner]

Heck-- the real-world methods several organized religions use to make holy water might fall under the presumed transparency guidance in the DMG (that is oh so consistently applied). Anyone have some real-world undead we can test against?

I think the CDC has some (http://www.cdc.gov/phpr/zombies.htm) stockpiled if they will let us borrow a few.