[3.5] Diggy diggy istant hole

[Uncle Pine]

Is there a spell, item, class feature or anything else that allows you to create a hole in the ground big enough to use it as a pit-trap in less than a round? Let's assume 10 cubic feet is "big enough". The time limit is to make it somewhat effective in combat.
No, disintegrate doesn't count. This is just because it'd be silly to disintegrate the ground instead of your enemy.
I'm aware of portable holes and enveloping pits.

[Gavinfoxx]

Lyre of Building?

[Telonius]

You might be able to weasel your DM to allow it to work with Shrink Item.

EDIT: Passwall ought to work, too.

[Emperor Tippy]

Fabrucate. If it's stone then use a Limited Wish to replicate Fabricate to get the casting time down to a standard action. Throw in a Rod of Quicken and it's down to a swift action.

Polymorph Any Object on the ground.

[Telonius]

If you just need them to believe there's a trap, Illusory Pit (Spell Compendium).

[Sgt. Cookie]

Stone Shape, perhaps? Assuming the ground is stone, of course.

[Gavinfoxx]

A really really big creature with a burrow speed, perhaps also one who can burrow through stone? It might not be a USABLE TUNNEL, but it could perhaps be a hole...

[hydraa]

Lords of Darkness

Has the spell phantom plow,
but it is only a pit of 1 ft deep , but it removes 50 cubic feet of earth.

---

Another possibility:
Decanter of endless water, if my calc is right it will generate just about 4 cu ft of water a round

[Gildedragon]

Opal of tunneling.
Instant hole!

[Slipperychicken]

High explosives?

[Maginomicon]

EDIT: Passwall ought to work, too.Exactly. There's nothing in the spell description that says the passage has to be horizontal.

[Humble Master]

The Moaning Diamond from the DMG can reshape the earth as if by Stone Shape and can effect up to 5000 cubic feet. Should be enough to create a hole 5000ft deep and also build an elaborate dungeon, labyrinth monument thing on top of your foes graves in the same round.

[Chronos]

A dire badger burrows at 10' (so, 20' with a double move) through anything softer than solid rock, and leaves a usable tunnel. So one could dig a 20' deep pit in a round by digging straight down. They're available as animal companions, wildshapes, and from Summon Nature's Ally.

[JusticeZero]

It's Pathfinder and psionics, but....
Foxhole (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/f/foxhole) maybe? Seems to be one of the major applications of the power.

[Incorrect]

Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) leaves a 10 foot cubic hole in the ground.

[Slipperychicken]

Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) leaves a 10 foot cubic hole in the ground.


Your username is well-earned here :smalltongue:



No, disintegrate doesn't count.

[Krazzman]

How about the Pathfinder Pit Spells? can be found at d20pfsrd.com

[Incorrect]

Your username is well-earned here :smalltongue:

I really should learn to read someday... :smallredface:

In that case, I substitute my downright wrong answer with this:
1 Use wall of stone to create a dome as high above the enemy as possible.
2 Use quickened reverse gravity to make them fall "up" into a hole.

Unique: Yes.
Clever: No.
Piddly amount of falling damage: Yes.
Efficient: No.

[TuggyNE]

I really should learn to read someday... :smallredface:

In that case, I substitute my downright wrong answer with this:
1 Use wall of stone to create a dome as high above the enemy as possible.
2 Use quickened reverse gravity to make them fall "up" into a hole.

Unique: Yes.
Clever: No.
Piddly amount of falling damage: Yes.
Efficient: No.

And then dismiss it a round or so later after your minions have dug a hole under where they used to be, and get more falling damage! :smallwink:

[supermonkeyjoe]

One of the options in a robe of useful items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#robeofUsefulItems) is a 10'x10'x10' pit

[Incorrect]

And then dismiss it a round or so later after your minions have dug a hole under where they used to be, and get more falling damage! :smallwink:

Hole-y heights batman!
That's triple falling damage!
It could be ... like ... maybe 6d6 damage!

[Uncle Pine]

Lyre of Building?

It works just like disintegrate and it's only 1/day, so no.


EDIT: Passwall ought to work, too.

Passwall is really great! It's also 5th level, one less than disintegrate, so it's easier to spam.


Fabrucate. If it's stone then use a Limited Wish to replicate Fabricate to get the casting time down to a standard action. Throw in a Rod of Quicken and it's down to a swift action.

Polymorph Any Object on the ground.

The Moaning Diamond from the DMG can reshape the earth as if by Stone Shape and can effect up to 5000 cubic feet. Should be enough to create a hole 5000ft deep and also build an elaborate dungeon, labyrinth monument thing on top of your foes graves in the same round.

Even though these methods actually work, I'd prefer not to spam 7th/8th level spells or to need a major artifact to open holes in the ground. Anyway, I ought to say that the hole from the Moaning Diamond would be really impressive.


If you just need them to believe there's a trap, Illusory Pit (Spell Compendium).

No, I want them to actually fall inside a hole. But Illusory Pit is nice and cheap to use against paranoid characters.


Stone Shape, perhaps? Assuming the ground is stone, of course.

It could work, but as you noted only if the ground is made of stone. Nice 3rd/4th level spell, though.


A really really big creature with a burrow speed, perhaps also one who can burrow through stone? It might not be a USABLE TUNNEL, but it could perhaps be a hole...

A dire badger burrows at 10' (so, 20' with a double move) through anything softer than solid rock, and leaves a usable tunnel. So one could dig a 20' deep pit in a round by digging straight down. They're available as animal companions, wildshapes, and from Summon Nature's Ally.

I should've known that "summon something" is always a good answer!


Another possibility:
Decanter of endless water, if my calc is right it will generate just about 4 cu ft of water a round

I don't understand how this could make digging holes easier :smallconfused:


Opal of tunneling.
Instant hole!

Where can I find it?


It's Pathfinder and psionics, but....
Foxhole (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/f/foxhole) maybe? Seems to be one of the major applications of the power.

How about the Pathfinder Pit Spells? can be found at d20pfsrd.com

I've never used PF material, sorry.


I really should learn to read someday... :smallredface:

In that case, I substitute my downright wrong answer with this:
1 Use wall of stone to create a dome as high above the enemy as possible.
2 Use quickened reverse gravity to make them fall "up" into a hole.

Unique: Yes.
Clever: No.
Piddly amount of falling damage: Yes.
Efficient: No.

It's actually a funny way to waste one's slots :smallbiggrin:


One of the options in a robe of useful items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#robeofUsefulItems) is a 10'x10'x10' pit

Interesting! I read that you can't reattach a patch, but why shouldn't a detached pit be reusable? Because it's permanent and it doesn't attach itself to the ground like the iron door.

[Humble Master]

I really should learn to read someday... :smallredface:

In that case, I substitute my downright wrong answer with this:
1 Use wall of stone to create a dome as high above the enemy as possible.
2 Use quickened reverse gravity to make them fall "up" into a hole.

Unique: Yes.
Clever: No.
Piddly amount of falling damage: Yes.
Efficient: No.
That is a glorious way to cause fall damage. I need to do that to my PCs one day...

[Gildedragon]

It's in sandstorm. Additionally it does a fair amount of fire damage

[Jack Zander]

Disintegrating the floor rather than the enemy isn't so bad. Considering many foes will have spell resistance for high saves, or even a high touch attack, it could be worthwhile to not target them directly. My favorite example is the Playgrounder who used Disintegrate to destroy a section of stone bridge that a powerful golem was standing on and guarding.

[Uncle Pine]

It's in sandstorm. Additionally it does a fair amount of fire damage

I found it. Pretty good and actually on the same wavelenght of the title of the topic :smallwink: It's fairly expensive, though.

So far, the best options to dig a hole seem:
- summoned creatures
- stoneshape/passwall (depending on the ground you are on)

With Moaning Diamond being the deluxe option.

Any other way of doing it?

[Gavinfoxx]

You know, if you have a purpose-built construct with the appropriate ranks (like a Homunculus from MM1, better give it skill focus perform string and artist feats) playing it while taking 10 the whole time, the

"The lyre is also useful with respect to building. Once a week its strings can be strummed so as to produce chords that magically construct buildings, mines, tunnels, ditches, or whatever. The effect produced in but 30 minutes of playing is equal to the work of 100 humans laboring for three days. Each hour after the first, a character playing the lyre must make a DC 18 Perform (string instruments) check."

effect, NOT the disintegrate effect, can be used essentially constantly...

[Uncle Pine]

Is there a hidden table somewhere that lists how much is "equal to the work of 100 humans laboring for three days"? If not, I'd treat it as 100 artisan/profession checks by average joe humans, but I don't think tunnels have a listed price like buildings do.

[Gavinfoxx]

100 humans laboring for 3 days can get a LOT done, though...

[Scow2]

disintegrate the ground instead of your enemy.This is not always true. You don't want to waste a Disintigrate on an enemy that has a strong Fortitude save, and/or is likely to survive the damage the spell deals.

Of course, Stoneshape and Passwall probably give a better return-on-investement.

[TheStranger]

100 humans laboring for 3 days can get a LOT done, though...

Well, is that 3 days of 24/7 work, or 3 days of 8-hour shifts (i.e., 100 normal human laborers working for 3 days)? I'm going to assume the latter. So you're getting a 48x time compression (let's call it 50). So one round of the lyre gets you ~5 minutes of 100 laborers. Which isn't really a lot, but let's think about what that means.

I'm going to assume for the sake of easy math that an average human can move ~1 cubic foot of soft dirt in a round (that's probably something like 2-3 shovelfulls, which is at least in the ballpark of reasonable). So under optimal conditions, 100 humans can move 100 cubic feet of dirt in a normal round. Given our 50x time compression, that's 5,000 cubic feet. That's a 10x10 pit 50 feet deep, or a 5x5 pit 200 feet deep.

Of course, that assumes soft dirt. Stone, wood, thick roots, or glacial till with a lot of rocks in it are going to slow your hypothetical workmen down. It also assumes that 100 laborers can work on the same 5x5 square without getting in each others' way, and that they're all working at 100% capacity for 8 hours straight. Personally, I'd give a player about 1/10 of the optimal productivity under normal circumstances. That's a 20-foot pit in a 5x5 square, which seems like it hits the range of useful, but not overpowered.

You can fudge the numbers a little either way, but that seems like the approximate range you're working in.

Edit: Upon further reflection, I underestimated the amount of time it would take a worker to move a cubic foot, probably by a very large amount. I'm inclined to divide everything I just said by 10. So you're looking at 500 cubic feet in optimal conditions, with maybe a 5x5x5 pit as a semi-realistic fallback.

[hydraa]

I don't understand how this could make digging holes easier :smallconfused:






Using the decanter of endless water would be like a firehose at full force to displace the earth, you might even get bonus damage to let the person drown or make a swim check


Some other items:

Sphere of Annihilation:

Portable hole in a bag of holding

Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion with the door open and parallel to the ground {perhaps some of the other variants of this}

[GeekGirl]

Stone Shape, perhaps? Assuming the ground is stone, of course.

Transmute mud to stone (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Transmute_Mud_to_Rock) shape stone works on most ground I would guess. you can ever turn Rock to Mud (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Transmute_Rock_to_Mud) If you don't want a rock hole.

[TuggyNE]

My favorite example is the Playgrounder who used Disintegrate to destroy a section of stone bridge that a powerful golem was standing on and guarding.

Huh, disintegrate is SR: Yes. I don't think I'd remembered that.

Also, re: digging — aren't there rules for Profession: Mining checks in RotD or some other kobold-ish book? That should give you a much better idea of how much you can get done.

[unseenmage]

Also, re: digging — aren't there rules for Profession: Mining checks in RotD or some other kobold-ish book? That should give you a much better idea of how much you can get done.

Races of the Dragon page 98, under Profession Mining. Tells you how many small, medium, and large creatures can work in the same 5 foot hole and everything.


Well, is that 3 days of 24/7 work, or 3 days of 8-hour shifts (i.e., 100 normal human laborers working for 3 days)? I'm going to assume the latter. So you're getting a 48x time compression (let's call it 50). So one round of the lyre gets you ~5 minutes of 100 laborers. Which isn't really a lot, but let's think about what that means.

I'm going to assume for the sake of easy math that an average human can move ~1 cubic foot of soft dirt in a round (that's probably something like 2-3 shovelfulls, which is at least in the ballpark of reasonable). So under optimal conditions, 100 humans can move 100 cubic feet of dirt in a normal round. Given our 50x time compression, that's 5,000 cubic feet. That's a 10x10 pit 50 feet deep, or a 5x5 pit 200 feet deep.

Of course, that assumes soft dirt. Stone, wood, thick roots, or glacial till with a lot of rocks in it are going to slow your hypothetical workmen down. It also assumes that 100 laborers can work on the same 5x5 square without getting in each others' way, and that they're all working at 100% capacity for 8 hours straight. Personally, I'd give a player about 1/10 of the optimal productivity under normal circumstances. That's a 20-foot pit in a 5x5 square, which seems like it hits the range of useful, but not overpowered.

You can fudge the numbers a little either way, but that seems like the approximate range you're working in.

Edit: Upon further reflection, I underestimated the amount of time it would take a worker to move a cubic foot, probably by a very large amount. I'm inclined to divide everything I just said by 10. So you're looking at 500 cubic feet in optimal conditions, with maybe a 5x5x5 pit as a semi-realistic fallback.

The above mining info would definitely help to nail down just what 100 human workmen are capable of though.
Might even make it worthwhile to homebrew a Kobold version of the Lyre of Building for the added number of creatures per 5 foot hole.


On a personal note I am absolutely thrilled to have stumbled across something in this thread I've been looking for (and loudly complaining about) for years. Before tonight I had never before seen rules for simple digging in D&D. Thank you playground, you've made my week.

(But seriously, it took them till RotD to print rules covering how commoners dig holes?!)

[Slipperychicken]

(But seriously, it took them till RotD to print rules covering how commoners dig holes?!)

To be fair to them, they had other priorities, like rules covering things adventurers are actually going to interact with (and which most gaming groups are going to care about). It's an adventure-game, after all, not FATAL. Most of the time, it's not very important to know precisely how many cubic feet of dirt a person can unearth each round.

[unseenmage]

To be fair to them, they had other priorities, like rules covering things adventurers are actually going to interact with (and which most gaming groups are going to care about). It's an adventure-game, after all, not FATAL.

Sorry but no. A game doesn't have to be FATAL bad to have use for digging rules.

On several occasions I and other DMs have had need to know how fast non-burrowing, non-magical digging occurs. The Lyre of Building, and the simple act of sapping castle walls come to mind.
Especially in a gameworld where Dwarves and Kobolds can vie for control of the upper Underdark.

(Seriously, we got an Underdark but no digging! It was madness. Maaaaadness!)


Edit: And now we know EXACTLY how long it takes a character to remove the doors from the walls instead of opening them. How did we ever do without THAT!

[Slipperychicken]

On several occasions I and other DMs have had need to know how fast non-burrowing, non-magical digging occurs. The Lyre of Building, and the simple act of sapping castle walls come to mind.

Good point. They ought to have printed digging rules in the same book.

EDIT: Or at the very least, how quickly one could excavate with the Lyre. We'd at least be able to reverse-engineer that into digging rules.

[TuggyNE]

Races of the Dragon page 98, under Profession Mining. Tells you how many small, medium, and large creatures can work in the same 5 foot hole and everything.

Since I don't actually have RotD, mind sharing a condensed version of how much 500 man-minutes of unskilled labor comes to?

[unseenmage]

Since I don't actually have RotD, mind sharing a condensed version of how much 500 man-minutes of unskilled labor comes to?


- 100 laborers divided into teams of 2 per 5 cu ft of stone (one aids the other).
- Nonelite array, not sure what level laborer is appropriate.
- Takes them 8 hrs per Profession check.
- DC 15 for one 5 ft cube of sedimentary stone, DC -10 for sand, -5 for dirt, -2 for hard dirt.
- DC +5 for hard rock, +10 for really hard rock.

Hope that helps.

[Deaxsa]

This is not always true. You don't want to waste a Disintigrate on an enemy that has a strong Fortitude save, and/or is likely to survive the damage the spell deals.

Of course, Stoneshape and Passwall probably give a better return-on-investement.

also, who is to say the assailants are even within range of disintegrate? what if it's a ballista barrage from ballistas a quarter mile away? or a cannon barrage, from an even greater distance?

edit: remember the folowing:

1. do you want it to be permanent? (passwall makes very good TEMPORARY trenches.. which can be nice, actually, if you intend on ditching them soon... no pun intended)
2. how much volume does it actually remove?(oh, HI THERE MOVE EARTH)
3. what kind of materials can it affect?(disintegrate is the only one that affects both worked stone and metal)
4. what kind of shapes are you allowed to clear out? (move earth for the inner sculptor in you)

honestly, in terms of "most bang for your buck", disintegrate is best way to go if it's stone or harder, while move earth is crazy effective otherwise, and passwall if you want it to be temporary.

edit: stupid casting time on move earth:smallsigh:

[Humble Master]

also, who is to say the assailants are even within range of disintegrate? what if it's a ballista barrage from ballistas a quarter mile away? or a cannon barrage, from an even greater distance?

Except Passwall and Stone Shape are both touch range spells...

[Kane0]

How about the Pathfinder Pit Spells? can be found at d20pfsrd.com

Create Pit (http://paizo.com/prd/advanced/spells/createPit.html)

There are other versions, but this is the basic one. Should be pretty easy to convert to 3.5 (copy & paste, possibly make range [short], done!)

Edit:
The more potent cousins of Create Pit are Spiked Pit (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/spikedPit.html#_spiked-pit), Acid Pit (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/acidPit.html#_acid-pit-) and Hungry Pit (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/hungryPit.html#_hungry-pit-).

[Slipperychicken]

- Nonelite array, not sure what level laborer is appropriate.

I would assume either non-classed Humanoid1 (1 racial hit die), or Human Commoner1. It doesn't make much difference which one.

[Deaxsa]

Except Passwall and Stone Shape are both touch range spells...

my point was that sometimes disintegrate is not available as an offensive measure.

what about, istead of making a hole (i am not sure what your purpose is) you made a bunker with one of the wall spells (it'd have to be one that does NOT have to be a single plane)

what about rope trick or land womb (http://dndtools.eu/spells/magic-of-faerun--20/land-womb--1584/)?

it's hard to give advice if we do not know what the goal is, or why you need that goal. do you need a hole in the ground, somewhere to take cover, the ability to dig straight down like a minecraft character, or what?

also,what about a teleportation spell if you need it for defense?

edit: okay, want a pit trap. the "hit the ground below them" strategy seems most effective with passwall, then, since it will go the deepest. ALSO, if you use two spells to trap a thing down there, and then dismiss the bottom spell after the top spell, they take displacement damage. which cannot be done with permanent spells.

edit2: if you use enough spells, you could even create a sort of ant-lion pit trap (like, for instance, ice wall with passwall for a pit with slippery edges, so it's hard to get out/easy to fall in), or a v-shaped entrance so they slide down into the pit(real ant-lion style)(or sarlacc if you prefer)

[TuggyNE]

- 100 laborers divided into teams of 2 per 5 cu ft of stone (one aids the other).
- Nonelite array, not sure what level laborer is appropriate.
- Takes them 8 hrs per Profession check.
- DC 15 for one 5 ft cube of sedimentary stone, DC -10 for sand, -5 for dirt, -2 for hard dirt.
- DC +5 for hard rock, +10 for really hard rock.

OK, gonna assume dirt. If we can ignore the Aid Another and just stuff them all together, taking 10, it works faster. I'm also assuming the Lyre doesn't care about such silly things as putting the effect of 100 men laboring into a single 5' cube (since we're already ignoring the 8 hour minimum Profession check time; 6 seconds is not enough, even accelerated).

We have 8⅓ man-hours to work with (6 seconds * 50 * 100 men / 3600 seconds per hour), which means we can pretty much exactly empty out one 5' cube.

Not very impressive, since you won't even force falling damage.

[Slipperychicken]

We have 8⅓ man-hours to work with (6 seconds * 50 * 100 men / 3600 seconds per hour), which means we can pretty much exactly empty out one 5' cube.

Not very impressive, since you won't even force falling damage.

It's more impressive if you use it for things like constructing cover, making concealment, building false targets, excavating the dungeon, blocking doors, boarding windows, giving yourself higher ground, creating choke-points and difficult terrain, and so on.

With 8 man-hours of labor and the right materials, you can give your team some serious bonuses (20-50% miss chance from concealment, +8 AC from improved cover, and so on) and make pretty much any room defensible.

[Crasical]

Napkin math reverse engineering a mattock of the titans:

+3 enchant: 18k
Adamantine: 3k

21k - 23,348 = 2348.

I'm going to assume the 348 is the cost of the huge/gargantuan masterwork warhammer. So a Shovel of Compulsive Pit-Trapping, which is useless as a weapon but digs real good, is a steal at 2k gold.

not at all what the OP asked for, but an interesting item for everyone else.

[Uncle Pine]

OK, gonna assume dirt. If we can ignore the Aid Another and just stuff them all together, taking 10, it works faster. I'm also assuming the Lyre doesn't care about such silly things as putting the effect of 100 men laboring into a single 5' cube (since we're already ignoring the 8 hour minimum Profession check time; 6 seconds is not enough, even accelerated).

We have 8⅓ man-hours to work with (6 seconds * 50 * 100 men / 3600 seconds per hour), which means we can pretty much exactly empty out one 5' cube.

Not very impressive, since you won't even force falling damage.

Well, my math for a single round of lyre of building (using the RotD rules) says:
- 1/300 duration compared to the listed "30 minutes of playing" (30 minutes = 1800 seconds = 300 rounds), so 1/300 of the listed effect;
- 100 1st level humans with no Profession ranks and standard ability scores, each can remove half a 5-foot cube per day (8 hours of work) taking 10 on his check, all of them can remove 750-cube of ground in three days (0.5*3*100*5);
- 750/300 = exactly half a 5-foot cube for a single round of lyre of building.

Assuming terrain that doesn't give malus/bonus to the Profession check.

Where am I wrong?

[unseenmage]

Well, my math for a single round of lyre of building (using the RotD rules) says:
- 1/300 duration compared to the listed "30 minutes of playing" (30 minutes = 1800 seconds = 300 rounds), so 1/300 of the listed effect;
- 100 1st level humans with no Profession ranks and standard ability scores, each can remove half a 5-foot cube per day (8 hours of work) taking 10 on his check, all of them can remove 750-cube of ground in three days (0.5*3*100*5);
- 750/300 = exactly half a 5-foot cube for a single round of lyre of building.

Assuming terrain that doesn't give malus/bonus to the Profession check.

Where am I wrong?

I wouldn't assume commoners with no Profession ranks. A laborer worth his salt (meaning a career man) is going to be an Expert with max ranks in his profession.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Lyre says 'laborers' right? And Experts fit that bill. They're not just shopkeeps and librarians, the Expert NPC class gets all those skill points so they can be the professionals in ANY field, don't they?

Also, on the 'what level should they be' thing, we can either go with 1st level mooks or use Leadership and other game precedents as a guide to say they should be 2 levels lower than the person playing the Lyre. Either would be fine. The second option has the nice benefit of allowing higher level characters to eke out some more 5 ft squares of mining though.

[Chronos]

I don't know if "laborers" would be experts or commoners, but either way, commoners get profession as a class skill anyway, and can max out their ranks just as much as the expert can, so it really doesn't matter. The expert will have an easier time finding employment, with more skills he can work at, but we only want them for one job.

[unseenmage]

I don't know if "laborers" would be experts or commoners, but either way, commoners get profession as a class skill anyway, and can max out their ranks just as much as the expert can, so it really doesn't matter. The expert will have an easier time finding employment, with more skills he can work at, but we only want them for one job.

Ah, my bad. That works just as well.

[Slipperychicken]

I wouldn't assume commoners with no Profession ranks. A laborer worth his salt (meaning a career man) is going to be an Expert with max ranks in his profession.

1. Shoveling dirt isn't a career. Elitist mentality ftw.

2. Your skill at shoveling dirt doesn't effect your pay.

3. There's no incentive to put even one rank into it.

[unseenmage]

1. Shoveling dirt isn't a career.

2. Your skill at shoveling dirt doesn't effect your pay.

3. There's no incentive to put even one rank into it.

As I'm the only nerd son of a redneck family I'll assume my life experience just differs from yours and let the above go.

However, there are a few organizations of miners, tunnel workers, and ditch diggers who would disagree with you.

[Slipperychicken]

However, there are a few organizations of miners, tunnel workers, and ditch diggers who would disagree with you.

Miners probably have to learn skills. Anyone can dig a ditch.


EDIT: I mean that it doesn't require a great deal of specialized training to dig a ditch, given medieval tools and specifications.

[TheStranger]

Miners probably have to learn skills. Anyone can dig a ditch.


EDIT: I mean that it doesn't require a great deal of specialized training to dig a ditch, given medieval tools and specifications.

Specialized training, no. But I have yet to encounter a task so simple that people who have been doing it for a while don't get better at it than they were when they started. I've supervised crews of workers who dug ditches (among other things) using hand tools, and I can say with absolute certainty that there's a difference in skill levels (There's an even bigger difference in work ethic, but I have no problem with ranks in Profession: Laborer representing both).

[unseenmage]

Specialized training, no. But I have yet to encounter a task so simple that people who have been doing it for a while don't get better at it than they were when they started. I've supervised crews of workers who dug ditches (among other things) using hand tools, and I can say with absolute certainty that there's a difference in skill levels (There's an even bigger difference in work ethic, but I have no problem with ranks in Profession: Laborer representing both).

Heartily agreed. I have been on the receiving end of ditch digging supervision. Trust me it's a lot harder than it looks. Esp. if you want said ditch to be any kind of precise or if there are complicating factors (waterlines suck fyi).

And for the world of D&D it is Profession Mining which covers ditches, holes, mineshafts, wells, etc etc. They have the rules for different stone/soil types and everything.

For the record, that 8 hr Profession check includes building supports etc. as well. Just so we're clear that this isn't just about ditches and holes.

[TuggyNE]

Where am I wrong?

Our calculations differ in that I was assuming the Aid Another listed by unseenmage was halving output in order to make the checks more reliable, and thus I doubled output to account for a laborer being able to excavate a 5' cube of dirt on their own.

[unseenmage]

Our calculations differ in that I was assuming the Aid Another listed by unseenmage was halving output in order to make the checks more reliable, and thus I doubled output to account for a laborer being able to excavate a 5' cube of dirt on their own.

The text only says that no more than two can work a given 5 ft cube of material. To clarify, it does not say they have to work in pairs. Only that they may.