TWF - twohanded weapons?

[gurgleflep]

Could - theoretically - a medium sized character with only two arms use TWF with two separate two-handed weapons? I assume there would be some pretty large penalties involved, so I'd like to find a way around this.
How would I go about setting up this character? It would likely be a ranger/barbarian. Gestalt maybe?

I won't be able to play it for a while, but I could always use it as a reoccurring villain!

[Sir_Thaddeus]

I don't think there's any way to wield a two-handed weapon with less than two hands. The closest you can get would probably be a Large one-handed weapon, with something like Monkey Grip (if it works the way I think it does...) or Powerful Build. Of course, if this is an NPC, you could just DM-fiat it. It's not really overpowered or anything.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not two weapon fight with greatsword and spiked armor?

And I think if you wield small weapons, you can wield twohanded weapons one handed at a -2 penalty. Maybe.

[Rhynn]

The closest you can get would probably be a Large one-handed weapon, with something like Monkey Grip (if it works the way I think it does...)

The beginning of wisdom is knowing that Monkey Grip does not work the way you think it does.

Ah, no, seriously though, that's exactly what it does. "You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands."

So yeah, Monkey Grip two Large longswords for 2d6 damage and a "mere" -6 to attacks (with Monkey Grip and Two-Weapon Fighting).

It's a terrible idea.


And I think if you wield small weapons, you can wield twohanded weapons one handed at a -2 penalty. Maybe.

Only if you use optional rules from the DMG. By default, Small two-handed weapons are two-handed for Medium creatures. Yes, it makes no sense.

Oops, I was wrong. SRD: "The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed."

[Gavinfoxx]

You forgot Oversized Two Weapon Fighting.

And those gloves or bracers or whatever they are that helps better than Monkey Grip.

[SciChronic]

The beginning of wisdom is knowing that Monkey Grip does not work the way you think it does.

Ah, no, seriously though, that's exactly what it does. "You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands."

So yeah, Monkey Grip two Large longswords for 2d6 damage and a "mere" -6 to attacks (with Monkey Grip and Two-Weapon Fighting).

It's a terrible idea.

paired with oversized twf its back down to light weapons.

something to take note of:
normal sized shortswords are longswords for small characters. and normal sized greatswords are longswords for large characters. so you are effectively just doing two-weapon fighting with 2 greatswords.

[Gavinfoxx]

normal sized shortswords are longswords for small characters. and normal sized greatswords are longswords for large characters.

I think that's only with 3.0 rules, though.

[Fyermind]

Well a Goliath or the like with powerful build can wield weapons that are quite large relative to the goliath...

[nyjastul69]

paired with oversized twf its back down to light weapons.

something to take note of:
normal sized shortswords are longswords for small characters. and normal sized greatswords are longswords for large characters. so you are effectively just doing two-weapon fighting with 2 greatswords.

That's a 3.0 rule. In 3.5 a medium short sword is an improperly sized short sword for a small character.

Edit: Be wary everyone, there is a ninja about.

[Gavinfoxx]

Strongarm Bracers > Monkey Grip.

Also, Strongarm Bracers dont stack with Monkey Grip.

So get Strongarm Bracers?

[Rhynn]

normal sized shortswords are longswords for small characters. and normal sized greatswords are longswords for large characters. so you are effectively just doing two-weapon fighting with 2 greatswords.

Well, yeah. If you're TWFing with a 2d6/19-20/x2 slashing two-handed martial weapon, it doesn't really matter whether you call it a Large longsword or a greatsword (except for the fact that the first explicitly by the rules gives you -2 to hit if you're Medium).

I think that's what the 3.5 DMG optional rule is: treating a Small longsword as identical to a Shortsword (i.e. no -2 "wrong size" penalty).

And yes, strongarm bracers are strictly better than Monkey Grip. You'll still be TWFing at -4 to both unless you get them to count as light somehow.

[Callin]

I actually played a Fighter/Tempest/Dervish that danced about with 2 "greatswords". Was fun as heck.

[nyjastul69]

Well, yeah. If you're TWFing with a 2d6/19-20/x2 slashing two-handed martial weapon, it doesn't really matter whether you call it a Large longsword or a greatsword (except for the fact that the first explicitly by the rules gives you -2 to hit if you're Medium).

I think that's what the 3.5 DMG optional rule is: treating a Small longsword as identical to a Shortsword (i.e. no -2 "wrong size" penalty).

And yes, strongarm bracers are strictly better than Monkey Grip. You'll still be TWFing at -4 to both unless you get them to count as light somehow.

The character would also lose the application of weapon specific feats such as weapon focus.

[Jett Midknight]

While we are one the topic of TWF with Two-Handed weapons, would it be possible for a character with 4 arms to duel wield Great-swords, how would his strength bonus be added in to his "off-hand," and what penalties would he take ?

[Darrin]

Could - theoretically - a medium sized character with only two arms use TWF with two separate two-handed weapons? I assume there would be some pretty large penalties involved, so I'd like to find a way around this.
How would I go about setting up this character? It would likely be a ranger/barbarian. Gestalt maybe?


TWFing with two non-light weapons would be -4 primary/-4 offhand. There are a few ways to do this... but it's tough to pull off with only two arms:

1) Two Sun Blades (DMG). This weapon looks like a bastard sword, but "the
wielder feels and reacts as if the weapon were a short sword." If you have two of them (yeah, we, uh, run into unattended piles of 100,000 GP all the time), then you can wield them both as if they were a pair of short swords. In Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, the Sun Blade is a legacy weapon, but there's an "unawakened" version called the Sunsword that's only 3000 GP, a +1 bastard sword, but the wording is slightly different... it can be wielded by someone who is proficient with the short sword, but that's not the same as wielding it as if it were a short sword.

2) Cavestalker PrC (Drow of the Underdark). After four levels, you can wield a spiked chain as if it were a one-handed weapon. Add Oversize TWF, and you can wield two at a time with only a -2 TWF penalty on each.

3) Revenant Blade (Player's Guide to Eberron). At level 5, you get Legendary Force, which allows you to treat both ends of the double scimitar as if you were wielding it two-handed.

4) Add more arms. Section IV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15034731&postcount=10) of my TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585#post15034585) explains how.


While we are one the topic of TWF with Two-Handed weapons, would it be possible for a character with 4 arms to duel wield Great-swords, how would his strength bonus be added in to his "off-hand," and what penalties would he take ?

Yes, it's possible, but because his offhand isn't light, the penalty would be -4/-4. However, you could use a one-handed weapon as your offhand weapon and grip it with two hands. With Oversize TWF, the penalty is -2/-2. The TWF rules sets your Str bonus on your offhand weapon to 1/2 Str, but with a two-handed grip, you could get two-handed bonus damage from Power Attack.

Diopsid (Dragon Compendium) can do this with only LA +1, but that sourcebook isn't always widely known or accepted. Totemist 2 may be able to do it (it's not entirely clear if your extra arms can wield weapons), but then you give up tearing people apart with four claw attacks. Check Section IV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15034731&postcount=10) for more ways to add arms.

[Jett Midknight]

Yes, it's possible, but because his offhand isn't light, the penalty would be -4/-4. However, you could use a one-handed weapon as your offhand weapon and grip it with two hands. With Oversize TWF, the penalty is -2/-2. The TWF rules sets your Str bonus on your offhand weapon to 1/2 Str, but with a two-handed grip, you could get two-handed bonus damage from Power Attack.

Diopsid (Dragon Compendium) can do this with only LA +1, but that sourcebook isn't always widely known or accepted. Totemist 2 may be able to do it (it's not entirely clear if your extra arms can wield weapons), but then you give up tearing people apart with four claw attacks. Check Section IV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15034731&postcount=10) for more ways to add arms.
How do you determine which one is your off-hand? Or if you have 4 arms, is only one arm treated as your main arm, and the other three are off-hands?

[Darrin]

How do you determine which one is your off-hand? Or if you have 4 arms, is only one arm treated as your main arm, and the other three are off-hands?

When you decide to use the TWF rules, you choose which weapon is your primary and which is your offhand.

The rules aren't clear if you can change your primary or offhand weapon once you've committed to an attack with either. The rules for armor spikes say you can't attack with them as an offhand weapon if you've already made an offhand attack with a different weapon that turn, but technically by RAW this only applies to armor spikes. Changing your primary weapon to something else might be possible, but the arguments tend to get a bit frazzled over that point.

If you have three or more hands wielding three or more weapons, you use the Multiweapon Fighting rules in the Monster Manual. But yes, you choose a primary weapon, and the rest of your remaining hands are wielding offhand weapons.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm pretty sure that with four arms you can dual wield two weapons and use each of them twohanded to get 3x your strength mod to damage. You would just need something like the Dragonsplints that you can do both with.

[Darrin]

I'm pretty sure that with four arms you can dual wield two weapons and use each of them twohanded to get 3x your strength mod to damage.


Using the Savage Species rules, you'd need 5 arms on one weapon to get x3.0 Str bonus on damage. For the second two-handed weapon... well, by declaring it an offhand weapon, the Str damage is set to x0.5. If we assume the Savage Species rules work on offhand weapons (and it's not clear that they do), then you'd need 7 hands to bring x0.5 up to x3.0. 5 + 7 = 12 arms total.



You would just need something like the Dragonsplints that you can do both with.

Hmm. Not sure that this would work. To accommodate more hands, the weapon has to be lengthened and balanced... at some point you'd have to wonder if lengthening it and adding weight would ruin the "can be considered a light weapon" aspect of the Dragonsplits. It would also help if we had the price for the Dragonsplits... which was never printed.

[Rhynn]

Using the Savage Species rules, you'd need 5 arms on one weapon to get x3.0 Str bonus on damage. For the second two-handed weapon... well, by declaring it an offhand weapon, the Str damage is set to x0.5. If we assume the Savage Species rules work on offhand weapons (and it's not clear that they do), then you'd need 7 hands to bring x0.5 up to x3.0. 5 + 7 = 12 arms total.

I think Tvtyrant was (unclearly) talking about getting (1.5 x Str mod) twice (once for each weapon). But even so, you'd probably need the Savage Species rules to figure out what a two-handed "off-hand" weapon gets...

[Gwendol]

Each hand used to wield a weapon (besides the first, primary hand) adds 0.5*STR mod to damage. So, if you wield a weapon with three hands you deal 2*STR mod extra damage. In the case of four arms - two weapons you get 1.5 STR for the weapon wielded in the primary hand, and 1*STR for the weapon wielded in the off-hands.

Also, there's a feat (tree) for fighting with more than two hands/weapons:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#multiweaponFighting

[Tvtyrant]

I think Tvtyrant was (unclearly) talking about getting (1.5 x Str mod) twice (once for each weapon). But even so, you'd probably need the Savage Species rules to figure out what a two-handed "off-hand" weapon gets...

This, and you are probably correct. I apologize for being unclear.

[cerin616]

A two handed weapon one size category small than you is considered a one handed weapon.

Strong arm bracers let you wield weapons as if you were one size category larger.

Strong arm bracers let you wield 2 handed medium weapons as one handed weapons at a -2 (this stacks with the -2 from TWF)

[Gavinfoxx]

So if you have:
Two Weapon Fighting
Strongarm Bracers
an appropriate Exotic Weapon Proficiency
and
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

what is the physically biggest set of weapons you could wield in each hand?

Medium Greatswords or Jovars?
Large Bastard Swords?

[Rhynn]

So if you have:
Two Weapon Fighting
Strongarm Bracers
an appropriate Exotic Weapon Proficiency
and
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

what is the physically biggest set of weapons you could wield in each hand?

Medium Greatswords or Jovars?
Large Bastard Swords?

Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency don't affect the size of the weapons in any way, they just affect the penalties. You'd be at -2 to both weapons with those.

Strongarm bracers let you wield weapons as if you were one size larger. They don't stack with powerful build.

With the above, assuming you're Medium-sized...

You could wield two Large longswords with no penalty.

You could wield two Large bastards swords with no penalty, with Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

You could wield two Huge short swords with a -2 penalty (one size too large, as one-handed weapons).

You could wield two Medium greatswords, either with or without a penalty (unclear; they're technically "one size too small"; I'd apply a penalty, because the proportions are going to be wrong for one-handed swords, the grip will be too thick, etc.). The DMG optional rule for weapon size equivalencies could negate the penalty.

Large longswords, Huge short swords, and Medium greatswords all deal 2d6 damage with 19-20/x2 criticals. Short swords would deal piercing damage, though. Other than that, you'd be best off using Large longswords. If you want to spend a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Large bastard swords deal 2d8 damage; that's +2 on average, so it's a feat as "well" spent as on Weapon Specialization.

[cerin616]

dual wield spiked chains
All the lolz.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

dual wield spiked chains
All the lolz.

Just, no. Just... no.

That gives a new meaning to chain-gatling-gun tripper.

[Rhynn]

dual wield spiked chains
All the lolz.

Two-handed weapon, you'll be at a -2 to hit.