Persisting Time stop.... Totally unrelated to any other thread... I promise

[dascarletm]

Totally unrelated, not having to do with any sort of campaign I may or may not be planning or may plan or run ordoanythingwithatallandnotrelatedtoanythreadhappe ningrightthisminute.:smalleek:

*Deep Gasp for Air*

What are the ways to persist 9th level spells. We got MM reducing (Incantrix, Feats and what-not) shenanigans DMM... But what else have we?

Thanks in advance:smallbiggrin:

[Kristinn]

Be a full caster. Reach epic. Take Epic Spellcasting 6 times. Prepare or cast spontaneously, as applicable, a Persistent Time Stop.

[Renen]

Wast there something about not being able to persist instant spells? And time stop is an instant spell/power.

Also, isn't stuff invincible to damage while u are in time stop? Meaning that to actually hurt something you WILL need to de-persist it.

[Immabozo]

Wast there something about not being able to persist instant spells? And time stop is an instant spell/power.

Also, isn't stuff invincible to damage while u are in time stop? Meaning that to actually hurt something you WILL need to de-persist it.

Correct, you cannot actually damage something, but you can set up all sorts of nifty traps, like 10,000 crossbows on stands firing crossbow bolts at the BBEG, lots of damage when it expires!

[Mabn]

or you can craft it at will into an item

[Vaz]

Duration; 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.

Changing the 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time) to 24 hours is hence considered to become "You are free to act for 24 hours". Which is nothing different that normal.

Just Craft Contingent Spell it; 16 days, 612 XP, and 7750gp.

[Immabozo]

Duration; 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.

Changing the 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time) to 24 hours is hence considered to become "You are free to act for 24 hours". Which is nothing different that normal.

False. The spell changes to allow 24 hours of apparent time. 24 hours of actions within one round is very useful

[Piggy Knowles]

What are the ways to persist 9th level spells. We got MM reducing (Incantrix, Feats and what-not) shenanigans DMM... But what else have we?

Talfirian Song (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8595585) shenanigans, Naenhoon Illumian, and Metamagic Spell Completion come to mind.

EDIT: Nevermind, Talfirian Song can't raise past 9th-level. Well, there's also circle magic of several flavors, Anima Mage, and Spelldancing.

[Scots Dragon]

It might just be the killer DM in me, but I'd make the persist work just a little too well... in that the time stop lasts just long enough for the wizard casting it to die of old age, dehydration, starvation or suicide. Whichever comes first.

[Vaz]

False. The spell changes to allow 24 hours of apparent time. 24 hours of actions within one round is very useful

No.

Complete Arcane.


Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You don't need to maintain concentration on persistent detect spells (such as detect magic or detect thoughts) for you to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the subject detected, but gaining additional information requires concentration as normal. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell's actual level.

Emphasis mine.

Duration; 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

"increased to 24 hours"

Duration; 24 Hours

There is no mention within Persistent Spell increasing "(apparent time); see text".

I am not wrong.

[Lightlawbliss]

It working or not is a dm call. I recommend we just assume the dm is allowing it, ignore what is actually does, and answer the question in the opening post.

the artificer thought line my brain is telling me an item of continuous time stop (if dm allows) would do this splendidly.

[Nanoblack]

No.

Complete Arcane.



Emphasis mine.

Duration; 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

"increased to 24 hours"

Duration; 24 Hours

There is no mention within Persistent Spell increasing "(apparent time); see text".

I am not wrong.
There's also no rules distinction between vanilla and "apparent" time.

[Immabozo]

Duration; 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

"increased to 24 hours"

Duration; 24 Hours

There is no mention within Persistent Spell increasing "(apparent time); see text".

I am not wrong.

You are not looking at the MM for the answer, but the spell. There is nothing that says in persisting it, that the spells effect is effectively lost. The duration is in apparent time. So the 24 hours is in apparent time. the "1D4 + 1" is replaced by "24 hours" the "(apparent time)" remains unchanged.

[Renen]

If im not mistaken they had a talk about this, and i think (i could be wrong) there's even errata on this. Here's what they said:

The spell works in APPARENT time. But the actual spell duration is instant, from the view of the world. Since it IS instant, it cant be persisted. Apparent time does NOTHING to the spell's ACTUAL duration which is infact instant.

[Chronos]

If I'm not mistaken, this thread isn't actually about Persistent Time Stop itself; there's another thread for that. I think the OP was just using that as an example, but the real question is "What ways are there to persist a 9th-level spell?".

And another way to do it is to cast on a plane that has an appropriate Enhanced Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#enhancedMagic) trait. If you can't find a plane that meets your needs, just make your own (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm).

[Marnath]

If im not mistaken they had a talk about this, and i think (i could be wrong) there's even errata on this. Here's what they said:

The spell works in APPARENT time. But the actual spell duration is instant, from the view of the world. Since it IS instant, it cant be persisted. Apparent time does NOTHING to the spell's ACTUAL duration which is infact instant.

If it did work, you'd be changing the actual duration of instant to 24 hours. Congrats, you just experienced 1D4+1 rounds over the course of 24 hours instead of half a second. It is now Tuesday for you. :smallbiggrin:

[Immabozo]

If it did work, you'd be changing the actual duration of instant to 24 hours. Congrats, you just experienced 1D4+1 rounds over the course of 24 hours instead of half a second. It is now Tuesday for you. :smallbiggrin:

AH, I see. Nice way to pass the time though! Non-cryogenic hybernation sub lightspeed space travel, here we come!

[Spuddles]

Spell dancer lets you dance to add metamagic to your spells.

[dascarletm]

To clarify things. I'm making the campaign, and the whole plot revolves around doing this. It will not hit epic levels (I think).

See: this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15145660&postcount=20)

EDIT: I probably just should of said, what are ways to get persist with no spell level adjustment on a 9th. :smallconfused:

[Vaz]

Anima Mage.

Being a Time Dragon.

Note that Metamagic Song doesn't work, as you'd need to be able to cast 15th level spells.

[Immabozo]

Being a Time Dragon.

what book is this from and can I have one as a pet? I want one!

[Spuddles]

I know Tome Dragon, from a DR magazine gets a small amount of metamagic reduction. Don't know of any Time dragons, though. Other than Chronepsis, the Silent Watcher, but he's a dragon god.

[Immabozo]

I know Tome Dragon, from a DR magazine gets a small amount of metamagic reduction. Don't know of any Time dragons, though. Other than Chronepsis, the Silent Watcher, but he's a dragon god.

hahahaha, Dragon Mag had no qualms with being silly

[Ruethgar]

Third party there is Speak High Draconic from Encyclopedia Arcane: Dragon Magic. Pathfinder has a trait that can lower metamagic for one spell you know by 1 and the feat Spell Perfection so you could ignore one metamagic feats' level adjustment for one spell. Of course Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic would help a bit. Sanctum Spell can help a little if you are only able to lower the spell slot and not the spell level.

Also, I don't know what books you guys are looking in but 3.5 Time Stop does not have an instantaneous duration. It has "Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text" and is a personal range spell, thus it would be persistable.

[Immabozo]

Also, I don't know what books you guys are looking in but 3.5 Time Stop does not have an instantaneous duration. It has "Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text" and is a personal range spell, thus it would be persistable.

Exactly, but some of my ideas seem to ridiculous for this board, I dont understand how.

[ericgrau]

I suppose you could persist a 24 hour real life duration... which is still 1d4+1 rounds apparent time. Doesn't seem that useful though.

The spell itself seems to imply that the official duration is in fact 1d4+1 rounds, but then afterwards the FAQ says that isn't so because its actual duration is practically instantaneous. The FAQ seems to be basing its explanation on what the spell is actually doing. And if you had to put an apparent time duration on time stop it would have to be instantaneous, since the next step up is 1 round.

You could attempt a strict reading, but then 1,000 other rules will fall apart much harder by the same method.

[Immabozo]

I suppose you could persist a 24 hour real life duration... which is still 1d4+1 rounds apparent time. Doesn't seem that useful though.

The spell itself seems to imply that the official duration is in fact 1d4+1 rounds, but then afterwards the FAQ says that isn't so because its actual duration is practically instantaneous. The FAQ seems to be basing its explanation on what the spell is actually doing. And if you had to put an apparent time duration on time stop it would have to be instantaneous, since the next step up is 1 round.

You could attempt a strict reading, but then 1,000 other rules will fall apart much harder by the same method.

1.) It could be used if you made a spacecraft and did not have warp speed and wished to survive the journey to the next star.

2.) Rules trump fluff. The FAQ says how the spell works and how fluff fluff fluff. It works, but no one like the idea because they are a bunch of mean buttheads that are just grumpy they didn't think of it.

[TuggyNE]

It works, but no one like the idea because they are a bunch of mean buttheads that are just grumpy they didn't think of it.

No, no one likes the idea because they already thought of it and rejected it for these reasons. At least, that's often the case.

This is not a novel idea; descriptions of this, and why it (presumably) doesn't work have been around for years. Probably since shortly after Persist Spell was published, in fact.

[Immabozo]

No, no one likes the idea because they already thought of it and rejected it for these reasons. At least, that's often the case.

This is not a novel idea; descriptions of this, and why it (presumably) doesn't work have been around for years. Probably since shortly after Persist Spell was published, in fact.

I'm sure it was, but I quote Chris Rock "in an arguement, I'm going to talk to talk about what I think is going to hurt the other person the most. Like if someone hits me and then gets out of their car and they are missing a leg, I'm gonna talk about the leg!"

[Arcanist]

what book is this from and can I have one as a pet? I want one!

Dragon Magazine #359 (Page 36). I don't believe you would want one as a pet though... :smallconfused:

[Immabozo]

Dragon Magazine #359 (Page 36). I don't believe you would want one as a pet though... :smallconfused:

It's like the flux capacitor came back and could fly! Why wouldn't I?!?!

[ericgrau]

2.) Rules trump fluff. The FAQ says how the spell works and how fluff fluff fluff. It works, but no one like the idea because they are a bunch of mean buttheads that are just grumpy they didn't think of it.
RAW is one thing. Odd readings, almost wordplay, is another. You need to establish that your interpretation is actually RAW, not merely declare that it is so.

Reminds me of using the efficient quiver to make any item in the multiverse because "Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard." Time stop is the least of your concerns once you go down that path.

The matter is, how long does the spell description say that the spell actually lasts? The wording seems clear that the spell is over in a very brief amount of time. So next you need to declare that this amount of time is some duration other than instantaneous, and yet less than 1 round. A new never before seen spell duration. And now you need to declare that it exists with such a length though the description gives no specific information. To say that it is so and then say "that's RAW" as if you needed no support, is pretty ridiculous. That's conjecture. And then to say that what anyone else says is fluff, though it is an amount of time that is at least as well supported as your declaration, that statement is a bit presumptuous.

Rather than RAW, I believe this is a case of RAIIIYDITBRAWAAEIRAI (rules as I interpet it and yet declare it to be RAW, and anything else is RAI).

[Arcanist]

It's like the flux capacitor came back and could fly! Why wouldn't I?!?!

If you could stop time, fly and time travel, why on Earth would you degrade yourself to the rank of "pet" to a hairless monkey?

[Immabozo]

RAW is one thing. Odd readings, almost wordplay, is another. You need to establish that your interpretation is actually RAW, not merely declare that it is so.

Reminds me of using the efficient quiver to make any item in the multiverse because "Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard." Time stop is the least of your concerns once you go down that path.

The matter is, how long does the spell description say that the spell actually lasts? The wording seems clear that the spell is over in a very brief amount of time. So next you need to declare that this amount of time is some duration other than instantaneous, and yet less than 1 round. A new never before seen spell duration. And now you need to declare that it exists with such a length though the description gives no specific information. To say that it is so and then say "that's RAW" as if you needed no support, is pretty ridiculous. That's conjecture. And then to say that what anyone else says is fluff, though it is an amount of time that is at least as well supported as your declaration, that statement is a bit presumptuous.

Rather than RAW, I believe this is a case of RAIIIYDITBRAWAAEIRAI (rules as I interpet it and yet declare it to be RAW, and anything else is RAI).

RAW say I can persist anything of fixed range, with a duration more that instantaneous. Time stop has a fixed range and a duration. Its rather simple.

Whats fluff is explanations on how the spell works.


If you could stop time, fly and time travel, why on Earth would you degrade yourself to the rank of "pet" to a hairless monkey?

Cause I offer simulating conversation! And I have cookies

[Spuddles]

If you could stop time, fly and time travel, why on Earth would you degrade yourself to the rank of "pet" to a hairless monkey?

Because that "hairless monkey" took Draconic Familiar?

[Arcanist]

Cause I offer simulating conversation! And I have cookies

The Cookies would only convey a +2 circumstance bonus to your diplomacy check as far as the stimulating conversation? I guess that you could do it if you made a DC 30 Int check based on the rules I just made up in my head.


Because that "hairless monkey" took Draconic Familiar?

I'm pretty confident the Time Dragon isn't on the list of approved Draconic Familiars :smalltongue:

[iDesu]

If you could stop time, fly and time travel, why on Earth would you degrade yourself to the rank of "pet" to a hairless monkey?

Why do cats choose to reduce themselves to "pet" status? Because they know it's only a ruse and that they enjoy watching the hairless apes prepare food for them, gather catnip, buy furniture for them to scratch, and clean up after them.

[Immabozo]

The Cookies would only convey a +2 circumstance bonus to your diplomacy check as far as the stimulating conversation? I guess that you could do it if you made a DC 30 Int check based on the rules I just made up in my head.

oh, but MY cookies carry at least a +3! And my int is 45, so a DC 30 int check is only failed on a 1!

[Arcanist]

Why do cats choose to reduce themselves to "pet" status? Because they know it's only a ruse and that they enjoy watching the hairless apes prepare food for them, gather catnip, buy furniture for them to scratch, and clean up after them.

... This is actually a really good reason FOR a True Dragon to keep Human's as pets... I mean especially if the True Dragon is getting on in age and she hasn't found a mate...


oh, but MY cookies carry at least a +3! And my int is 45, so a DC 30 int check is only failed on a 1!

Did you also make the Knowledge (Time Lord Science) check? :smallconfused:

On a side note: Can that actually be a thing? Like Knowledge (System Mastery)?

[iDesu]

... This is actually a really good reason FOR a True Dragon to keep Human's as pets... I mean especially if the True Dragon is getting on in age and she hasn't found a mate...

No, no, no, you've got that backwards. If the dragon had humans as pets then the dragon would have to clean up after the humans or else get fined and lose part of its treasure horde. It's much easier to be the pet and have the owner do all the work.

[Arcanist]

No, no, no, you've got that backwards. If the dragon had humans as pets then the dragon would have to clean up after the humans or else get fined and lose part of its treasure horde. It's much easier to be the pet and have the owner do all the work.

Then why not just enslave the Humans into doing it? ... Perhaps it is because it is easier to make a person serve you willingly than to force them into servitude? Maybe because such advance domination magic is difficult to maintain? Or perhaps because it shows that True Dragons, despite their varying alignments, do have a form of honor against that? ... OR they're just lazy little ****s! Yeah, that is far more likely :smallsmile:

[iDesu]

Then why not just enslave the Humans into doing it? ... Perhaps it is because it is easier to make a person serve you willingly than to force them into servitude? Maybe because such advance domination magic is difficult to maintain? Or perhaps because it shows that True Dragons, despite their varying alignments, do have a form of honor against that? ... OR they're just lazy little ****s! Yeah, that is far more likely :smallsmile:

Enslavement breeds resentment, and more importantly to the dragon, lots of whining. Give them the illusion of power and it's much less of a hassle.

[Renen]

... This is actually a really good reason FOR a True Dragon to keep Human's as pets... I mean especially if the True Dragon is getting on in age and she hasn't found a mate...


Did you also make the Knowledge (Time Lord Science) check? :smallconfused:

On a side note: Can that actually be a thing? Like Knowledge (System Mastery)?

You clearly haven't read the Time dragon lore.
1) They mate veeeery rarely and don't actually live with their mate.
2) They can't (get on in age) as they are immortal, and aging even for normal dragons makes them stronger. For a time dragon, aging only makes them stronger and can never kill them.

[Immabozo]

Did you also make the Knowledge (Time Lord Science) check? :smallconfused:

I actually wrote the Time Lord sciences and taught the first Time Lords