New here, monk questions!

[mercury19]

So I am new on these forums but I've been playing d&d for a while, 3.5 core only. Mostly because thats all my DM has. ANyhow, I'm in the middle of a campaign, and my human ranger just died by blood sucking. So I need a new character.

In the past, I've played a couple of monks, but neither was very good. mostly it was my dice rolls and lack of experience, I think. But they were both half elves. I'm thinking I'd like to try again, just because monks sound so dang cool!

My biggest problem is what race to choose. I have narrowed it down to these choices: Human, Dwarf, Warforged, Lycanthrope, Dragonborn from RotD with a Half-Orc base, or this dragonborn, minus the LA-http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dragonborn_(3.5e_Race)

So my questions are:
What race should I choose?
How should I be fighting as a monk?
What are the best feats?
How do prestige classes work, and what are the good monk ones?

Just to give an idea of my playing conditions, everyone, including the DM is in high school. We only have the PHB, DMG, MM1-5, and Weapons of Legacy. We don't use an xp system, we just level up when we are told.
Also, in the party in this campaign are a level 6 Orc Rogue (who uses a great sword), an Orc NPC 2 rogue/4 monk, and a level 7 Dwarf fighter.

Thanks, m19

[Juntao112]

Post 76 of this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284572&page=3) contains an excellent monk build. You even get to see how it performs as the thread continues!

[eggynack]

Before discussing monk optimization in earnest, I thought it'd be prudent to note that your past failure with monks probably has little to do with bad rolls and inexperience. Monks just tend to be pretty bad in general. There aren't really many good monk races in core, so you should probably just stick with human. I actually don't think there's much of anything for a monk in core. You could probably do something involving tripping, but you'd be better off not being a monk if that's your aim. Thus, I don't really have many answers to your questions, because there aren't many good answers to these questions. I can tell you about prestige classes though. You basically just need to fulfill all the prerequisites of the prestige class prior to leveling, and then you take levels in the prestige class. Apart from the prerequisites, they're basically functionally identical to base classes.

[nyjastul69]

So I am new on these forums but I've been playing d&d for a while, 3.5 core only. Mostly because thats all my DM has. ANyhow, I'm in the middle of a campaign, and my human ranger just died by blood sucking. So I need a new character.

In the past, I've played a couple of monks, but neither was very good. mostly it was my dice rolls and lack of experience, I think. But they were both half elves. I'm thinking I'd like to try again, just because monks sound so dang cool!

My biggest problem is what race to choose. I have narrowed it down to these choices: Human, Dwarf, Warforged, Lycanthrope, Dragonborn from RotD with a Half-Orc base, or this dragonborn, minus the LA-http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dragonborn_(3.5e_Race)

So my questions are:
What race should I choose?
How should I be fighting as a monk?
What are the best feats?
How do prestige classes work, and what are the good monk ones?

Just to give an idea of my playing conditions, everyone, including the DM is in high school. We only have the PHB, DMG, MM1-5, and Weapons of Legacy. We don't use an xp system, we just level up when we are told.
Also, in the party in this campaign are a level 6 Orc Rogue (who uses a great sword), an Orc NPC 2 rogue/4 monk, and a level 7 Dwarf fighter.

Thanks, m19

By golly it is Monkday already. Welcome to the boards. Just a friendly FYI. Monks and fighters are generally considered the weakest of the core classes. You are going to get a great deal of advice to play something else. I'll let others elaborate. In regards to race, humans are a solid choice for many builds and are very flexible.

[eggynack]

By golly it is Monkday already. Welcome to the boards. Just a friendly FYI. Monks and fighters are generally considered the weakest of the core classes. You are going to get a great deal of advice to play something else. I'll let others elaborate. In regards to race, humans are a solid choice for many builds and are very flexible.
Oh yeah, it is monkday. This was really well timed. Well done, new fellow.

[ArcturusV]

Welcome to the board. You're just in time for "Monkday".

So, here's my thoughts for you:

Half-Elf is kind of a sucker race. it doesn't so much for you. So I'd avoid it. Human is honestly your best bet. +1 feat, and +1 Skill Point/Level multiplied by 4 at first level, for no drawbacks what so ever is about the best choice you can ever make. Can't see in the dark? Pssh, that's why you make the NPC carry the torch.

Similarly, Monk is a poor choice to make. It's not just the dice rolls. The monk basically has two things it can do. One is survive a bit of mystical trouble (Immune to Diseases, resist poisons, good saving throws, eventually gains Spell Resistance), which can be good if you fight dumb mages.

The other thing it can do is "skill monkey" as they call it. You got a decent amount of skill points, and can pick a variety of skills to be a Scout/Sneak, or a "Face". But not both at the same time.

With a Rogue in the party though, they should be a much better "Skill Monkey" than you. Your magic defense isn't that important with no ability to draw attention to yourself necessarily. And you're not going to be as good as the Rogues or the Fighter at dishing out damage.

I really wouldn't suggest a monk with that party composition. Considering the lack of magic on your side I'd more likely suggest a Druid or Cleric myself. Both can be pretty fun. And you won't have any real worries about poor stat rolls (Both can buff stat rolls into irrelevance), or not being effective in the game.

If you are dead set on being a monk? Prestige Class out of Monk as fast as you can, and as much as you can. It's really your best option for the class. You lack the books to have a lot of the Alternate Class Feature swaps that make the monk better. In fact I think you lack most of the PrCs too. If you could get your hands on it, I'd suggest a copy of Oriental Adventures just to grab up the Monk PrCs in it (Some are reprinted later, but they're scattered in separate books), the Tattooed Monk, Shintao Monk, and Henshin Mystic. It'll do a lot to increase your usefulness. And compensate for bad stat rolls with the Shintao Monk's "Touch of the Void Dragon" that gives you hours long buffs to one of your stats.

But if you're rolling, and you get even middling stat rolls, please don't go monk. I mean as a monk you really require good stats in:

Strength
Dex
Con
Wisdom

Possibly Charisma if you pick "Face" skills. That's a lot of stats you need to have at decent or better levels.

You can end up taking say, Barbarian, and picking relevant feats like Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple and be a better Unarmed Combatant than the Monk.

[Gavinfoxx]

If that is all your DM has, show him this:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=513

That gets you a TON of stuff, like Warblade, Archivist, Psychic Rogue, Psion, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, etc. etc. Note the links to the SRD.

And don't play a Monk. It's low powered, even in a PHB only game -- perhaps especially then. After all, with only the PHB & DMG, you can pretty much replicate every single one of the Monk's abilities, using classes and items. Which illustrates how crap it is; so much so that they made at least two different attempts to reboot the class.

[Talya]

You have no spellcasters in your party.

Interesting.

Have you considered looking at a druid?

[mercury19]

This is the fastest replying forum I've ever seen. Most take a day or so to get one reply!:smallbiggrin:

Alright, so you are overwhelmingly against monks.

I have played a druid before, but I am more of a run in and hit things kind of guy, so I am not good at non combat ideas/plans/things. This also happened with a sorcerer.

Questions:
What damage does and unarmed stride do with Imp Unarmed Strike?
If I were to multiclass, which magic class would go best with monk?
If I were to multiclass, which should I take levels in first, due to the monks restriction on multiclassing?
What is the most combat oriented magic class?


So human for race? No dragonborn or warforged or whatnot?

[Eldariel]

I second, third and fourth Talya here. Druid, Cleric or Wizard would make the rest of the party way more powerful too while also offering a great extra frontliner (Wizard can't function as one himself that easily but his spells can bring extras), and both, control magicks and supportive magicks. And travel magicks and such later on, which make life a lot easier.

For bonus point, Cleric can have the exact same fluff as Monk (and Druid can easily be a Ranger), while offering more of everything the party needs. Could even use those Wands of Cure Light Wounds to keep everyone topped out and remove status ailments all the while kicking ass in the frontline.


If you are hellbent on a Monk:
- Human or Dwarf; you need skillpoints, you need all your stats except for Charisma and yeah...
- You need very, very high Strength. 18 starting Strength is basically mandatory, and all level-ups should go there. This is needed for To Hit (which is horrible by default), damage (which is mediocre by default) and Tripping (which is your only truly powerful move and one you get for free; it also helps with #1).
- You also want quite high Wisdom (16 optimally; AC, Stunning Fist, skills), Dexterity and Constitution (16 for each would be perfect but 14 will do in a pinch here; Dex for Initiative, Reflex, AC, extra AoOs, skills & Con for Fort and HP). Further, you want at least 10 Intelligence for skill points and probably would prefer 12.
- Pick up Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip as your bonus feats. Improved Grapple can be a normal feat if desired; most importantly you want Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike [Monster Manual] to get Large size unarmed dice (then you want Enlarge Person or similar cast on you as permanently as possible to get Huge damage dice), Ability Focus: Stunning Fist (to keep the difficulty class decent and this ability useful) and the usual stuff; Weapon Focus ('cause you have nothing better to take), Improved Initiative, etc. and Improved Grapple if low level. Far Shot higher up can be decent if you want to Flurry with +1 Distance Shurikens to actually have a ranged attack (40' range increment Shurikens aren't entirely useless anymore).
- Max Hide, Move Silently (some source of Hide in Plain Sight would be nice), Tumble, Spot, Listen, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and some ranks in Balance. Well, given the skill points anyways. You're supposed to be a sneaky observant diplomat so you need good skills on those fronts. Practically, you probably can't afford more than sneakiness and Tumble.
- Carry a reach weapon in your hands to threaten additional squares (Guisarme or Spiked Chain optimally for tripping on attacks of opportunity; you can pick up Exotic Weapon Proficiency as one of your feats), as you don't need your hands free to perform Unarmed Strikes.
- Make sure to get a lot of party's loot and invest in a lot of magic items; in no specific order, you need all stat boosters, flight (Boots, Cloak, whatever), Resistance-bonus to saves, Natural Armor, Deflection Bonus, Monk's Belt, Boots of Speed (for the extra attack), something to enchant your fists (Amulet of Mighty Fists is superexpensive, see if you could get Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) instead), Bracers of Armor, etc. Basically, Monks need/want everything magical.

[ArcturusV]

Thing is, a Cleric or a Druid can easily do the Run in and Hit Stuff thing.

Druids are flexible enough that you can sit back and blast stuff with elemental magics, bury them under landslides, blow them up, etc. Or you can cast stuff that makes you insanely tough and hit like a ton of bricks. Turn into a Tiger, and just charge into battle and rip people apart.

Cleric similarly. You got heavy armor, a lot of buff spells as well. You go and make your own weapons magic, aligned, blessed, etc, and just SLAM someone hard. You got a lot of options for increasing your power as well, a lot of magical items are made to turn clerics into even bigger power houses. Though granted, some of the neater ones are in books you don't have.

[Eldariel]

This is the fastest replying forum I've ever seen. Most take a day or so to get one reply!:smallbiggrin:

Alright, so you are overwhelmingly against monks.

I have played a druid before, but I am more of a run in and hit things kind of guy, so I am not good at non combat ideas/plans/things. This also happened with a sorcerer.

Questions:
What damage does and unarmed stride do with Imp Unarmed Strike?

It's in the table in PHB; 1d3 for Medium, 1d2 for Small. The feat only makes you armed without a weapon, and allows you to deal lethal or nonlethal damage.


If I were to multiclass, which magic class would go best with monk?

Monk 1/Druid -> is an extremely good build. It gets the Wisdom to AC (Monks have a lot of Wisdom) without armor (Monks don't care) and unarmed strikes (can be used while an animal with Wildshape; Kung-Fu Bear power) and the free feat with only one level.

Cleric 20 can be like a Monk in everything but name; Monk's Belt allows you to be unarmored while still being hard to hit and you're hardhitting to start with. Without an easy way to get unarmed strike advancement onto Cleric tho it's generally preferable to use weapons.


If I were to multiclass, which should I take levels in first, due to the monks restriction on multiclassing?

Monk. Casting classes grow better with extra levels so you want to start with martial and end in casting if you must multiclass.


What is the most combat oriented magic class?

Druid and Cleric can both give any warrior, even Barbarian, a run for their money (in Druid's case the animal companion helps too but once they get Wildshape they can be in animal form all day and kick ass; Clerics pick off around level 7-9 when they get to Quicken Divine Favor and use Divine Power/Righteous Might to kick ass and take names).


So human for race? No dragonborn or warforged or whatnot?

Humans are usually the most solid all-around. Other races with bonuses to important stats are good and most are playable but Monks in particular are quite stat-dependent so they can't really afford penalties in important stats (Str, Dex, Con, Int or Wis). Same obviously applies to casters; you don't want penalty in your casting stat (nor your Strength if you want melee combat...unless you're a Druid when you turn into an animal and thus replace your physical stats and don't care).

[Gavinfoxx]

The most combat oriented class, with the most mobility abilities, is Druid. After all, they get strategic flight at, what, level 4? 5?

You may have played Druid, but you probably weren't playing it the way we are thinking of playing it... You can get a lot out of that class if you know what you are doing, and it doesn't sound like you did.

[Emperor Tippy]

The problem is that with being limited to the PHB and DMG there are very few things that you can do to make a good monk.

Your best bet is honestly a Wild Elf archery monk.

Dip one level of Rogue (probably at level 1 for the extra skill points) as you don't want the Monk capstone (it sucks) and the +1d6 sneak attack is at least occasionally mildly useful. Sorcerer 1 for True Strike might also be decent if you have the stats for it

Get a Longbow and the relevant archery feats. Proceed to shoot your enemies from a hundred+ feet away while using your massive speed advantage to kite them and whittle them down to death. Max Hide and Move Silently, get a Raven as your familiar for scouting.

Dip one level into Shadowdancer at some point for Hide in Plain Sight, and at that point you might as well pick up Shot on the Run as you already have Dodge and Mobility.

Pour tons of your money into the deadliest bow you can make in core. Proceed to shoot your enemies from where they can't hit you and be a decentish scout.

----
Straight melee monk royally sucks in core because of the lack of options to make a standard action attack worthwhile. If you have that and the ability to make the tumble check for full speed tumble to avoid AoO's along with Spring Attack (yes, about the only time its worth the feat chain is on a core only melee monk) then you can kinda sorta be a decent skirmisher if you know what you are doing and have a party willing handle combat in a similar manner.

[nyjastul69]

I'll second the cleric or druid choices. Your party is lacking a spell caster and both are good martial choices as well. Druid takes a bit more bookkeeping though due to summon natures ally. But it's great fun to play a bear that has a bear and shoots bears out of a bear gun. Good stuff.

[Talya]

You know what made me say druid?

You guys have a limited selection of books for classes and such, but you have all five monster manuals. Nothing makes the druid more versatile than monster manuals.

[nyjastul69]

You know what made me say druid?

You guys have a limited selection of books for classes and such, but you have all five monster manuals. Nothing makes the druid more versatile than monster manuals.

This is an excellent point.

[Gavinfoxx]

Oh my god, yea, you can kick SO MUCH ASS with the animal companions and wild shape forms in those monster manuals!

[eggynack]

I concur. You have more monster manuals than you have not monster manuals. You don't get the fiend folio stuff, but you do get lots of super cool wild shape forms. There's also some fancy animal companions in there. You could easily manage with nothing but core stuff, but as a druid, you'd be the only member of the party making use of all those monster manuals, and that's some cool beans right there.

[Gavinfoxx]

And don't forget purchased animals, and purchased exotic animals, either! OR barding for them (without training, that means animals can wear barding with an armor check penalty of 0 without problems)! Or hiring trainers and handlers, or coming up with custom training regimen and figuring out exactly which tricks each animal should be trained in!

And read these:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1300
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0

Also remember that by level 8, you can be in Wild Shape form 24/7 (so you can, you know... put armor on in the morning like everyone else), and that the item to let you speak with your companions while wild shaped is in the DMG, in the cursed items section.

[mercury19]

Ok, I'm liking where this is going.

So advice is human, I think I'll go with Monk/Druid class combo. However, I will have to start as level one, and the leveling up is not constant by any means.

So which do I take first? And how many levels of Monk should I take?



You may have played Druid, but you probably weren't playing it the way we are thinking of playing it... You can get a lot out of that class if you know what you are doing, and it doesn't sound like you did.
I can give 100% confirmation that I did not. So my question is how does one play a Druid correctly?


And off topic, how interesting would a lycanthrope druid be? Not my plan, just a random idea.

[Juntao112]

First level druid.

[ArcturusV]

Problem with Lycanthrope Druid, is that it can force your alignment to change to Chaotic Evil, which will make you lose your Druid Powers. It just comes with a lot of baggage (Racial Hit Dice, etc) and doesn't give you any benefits you can't otherwise have other than DR/Silver.

[eggynack]

It's pretty hard not to play a druid correctly. At level one, the only two major choices are the animal companion, and the spell list. The best animal companion at first is likely the riding dog, preferably with some leather barding. They have good defense, good offense, and some tripping ability. A riding dog can overpower most monks at first level, so it's a good starting point. For spells, entangle is pretty fantastic, and produce flame is a good damage spell. Obscuring mist is also pretty great. For the 0th level spells, I tend to like detect magic, cure minor wounds, and create water. In terms of feats, I like summoning builds, so I'd go with spell focus (conjuration) and augment summoning. At 3rd, I'd go with extend spell or craft wondrous item, depending on my mood. At 6th, you will take natural spell. It's the single most important druid feat. In terms of monk levels, the ideal number is zero. There's nothing that monk gives you that is better than what a level of druid will give you. That includes personal combat potential. If you must take a monk level, make it a single monk level. The wisdom bonus to AC is kinda nifty. Seriously not worth a druid level, but nifty.

[Sith_Happens]

Be careful with druid, though, given the composition of the rest of the party it'll be easy to accidentally make them feel inadequate.

Of course, Tippy's monk idea actually sounds like it could be cool (though with just about anything he posts that goes without saying).

[nyjastul69]

The biggest problem with multiclassing druid with monk is losing spellcasting levels. Spellcasting is simply that much better. If your playing in a low-mid optimization game a level or two of monk won't kill your build. The wis to AC is very nice and evasion and combat reflexes are good too. Druids don't get many feats and those additions can be helpful. I wouldn't go more than 2 levels in monk though.

[eggynack]

Be careful with druid, though, given the composition of the rest of the party it'll be easy to accidentally make them feel inadequate.
This is possibly true. A first level druid's riding dog is probably going to be more powerful than the party fighter, especially in a low optimization setting. It seems like the OP is starting five levels below the norm though, so it might be alright to be a bit high optimization. Anyways, here's some more druid advice. You're going to want to pump wisdom, constitution, and then no other things. Wild shape replaces strength and dexterity, and charisma and intelligence aren't that important. I'd probably emphasize one of the mental stats though, if I had extra points lying around. For skills, you're going to want spellcraft and concentration at the base. Then, you should pick up knowledge (nature), because it's how you familiarize yourself with your planned wild shape forms, and your score will probably be great, due to nature sense. After that, it's up to you. Listen and spot are great if you want to scout, and diplomacy is great if you want to be the party face. You also may want handle animal, because it has some good ways to break it. Some good weapons are the spear, the quarterstaff (because there are some good spells for it) and the sling.

[Gavinfoxx]

Quarterstaff, wielded like a two handed club, or Club, are great weapons, with the spell Shillelagh, as long as your strength is like at least 12 or so, preferably at least 14 (though that isn't vital, as wild shape will totally override strength).

However, you should start at the same effective character level as the rest of the party. That's kinda a big deal. Like, an absurdly big deal. Perhaps the biggest deal.

Remember, effective character level = level adjustment + racial hit dice + class levels.

[Emperor Tippy]

The biggest problem with multiclassing druid with monk is losing spellcasting levels. Spellcasting is simply that much better. If your playing in a low-mid optimization game a level or two of monk won't kill your build. The wis to AC is very nice and evasion and combat reflexes are good too. Druids don't get many feats and those additions can be helpful. I wouldn't go more than 2 levels in monk though.

One level dip into Monk is actually a fairly great choice for a Druid if your DM is unwilling to allow Wilding Clasps or wearing items in animal form.

----
If you have access to the SRD then if you are doing my archery monk you should probably take the Cobra strike variant, it gives you dodge, mobility, and spring attack instead of the 1,2, and 6th level monk bonus feats which makes Shadowdancer trivial to qualify for and lets you pick up Shot on the Run far easier (not having to get Dodge and Mobility).

---
Another possibility is Ranger 2 (Wildshape variant, wildshape and barbarian fast movement)/ Monk 6 (Cobra Strike variant) /Shadow Dancer 1/ Monk 11.

That gives you 1/day Wildshape, +60 ft. movement, Hide in Plain Sight, +15/+10/+5 BAB and generally makes you really great at making your enemies lives a living hell by sniping at them constantly from out of their effective engagement or detection ranges (especially in SRD only).

---
Best suited to you might be the druid variant here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid). Give up wildshape to gain Monks AC bonus, Speed increase, a rangers favored enemy progression, and swift tracker (as a ranger). Be a Wild Elf and go to town as an archer.

[Gavinfoxx]

FYI, you should be aware that essentially all Druid Variants are decreases in potential power of the Druid. Their basic and normal class features are that strong! Now, you can make an educated choice to lower the possible power of a Druid, but if you take a variant, that is what you are doing -- perhaps to suit a particular playstyle. But, for mobility, really nothing beats the Wild Shape forms you have access to.

[eggynack]

@ Tippy:
I'm pretty sure that a monk dip is worse than no monk dip, just in general. If you mean, "A monk dip is a fairly great choice, compared to a dip into fighter," then sure, that makes sense. I just don't see what a druid is really getting out of a monk level that he wouldn't get out of another level in druid. Even just in the SRD, you get access to wild armor. It's obviously not the best choice in the world, but I'd rather take that then lose a caster level for some monk AC. A druid's best combat option is being more of a druid, because it also advances your access to neat animal companions and wild shape forms. I'd rather lose out on the wisdom to AC, and access fleshraker dinosaurs and desmodu hunting bats a level earlier. The OP might not have access to wilding clasps, but he certainly has access to a ton of great forms and companions.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, druids have LOTS of ways to get armor -- a monk's belt, Barding put on at the beginning of the day before any fights start, Wild armor, etc. etc.

[Pickford]

Post 76 of this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284572&page=3) contains an excellent monk build. You even get to see how it performs as the thread continues!

I could not disagree more. That build lacks Clarity of Vision or similar methods of detecting invisible creatures (for auto-spotting invisible targets), it also isn't carrying a crossbow or other ranged weaponry, which is an important backup.

[Emperor Tippy]

@ Tippy:
I'm pretty sure that a monk dip is worse than no monk dip, just in general. If you mean, "A monk dip is a fairly great choice, compared to a dip into fighter," then sure, that makes sense. I just don't see what a druid is really getting out of a monk level that he wouldn't get out of another level in druid. Even just in the SRD, you get access to wild armor. It's obviously not the best choice in the world, but I'd rather take that then lose a caster level for some monk AC. A druid's best combat option is being more of a druid, because it also advances your access to neat animal companions and wild shape forms. I'd rather lose out on the wisdom to AC, and access fleshraker dinosaurs and desmodu hunting bats a level earlier. The OP might not have access to wilding clasps, but he certainly has access to a ton of great forms and companions.

Druid 20 gives you an additional use of elemental wildshape, the ability to turn into a huge elemental, and once extra slot of 8th and 9th level. In core/SRD only that isn't all that great and honestly the single 9th level slot is the one thing that is really good on that list (and even then the only really good 9th level Druid spells in core are Shapechange and and Foresight, both of which are already 10 minutes per level, doubled with a greater rod of extend) while Monk 1 gives you Wis to AC (and IUS for what its worth) that applies in all forms.

EDIT: Outside of core a Wilding Clasp Monks Belt is a far better choice but without that, Monk 1/Druid 19 is strictly better in core/SRD only than Druid 20.

---
The OP also wants to play something at least somewhat monk like. Turning into a full casting dinosaur is pretty far away from that.

[Gavinfoxx]

The OP wants to play something monk like... before we told him what was possible. We don't know if that is STILL the case...

[eggynack]

I could not disagree more. That build lacks Clarity of Vision or similar methods of detecting invisible creatures (for auto-spotting invisible targets), it also isn't carrying a crossbow or other ranged weaponry, which is an important backup.
The clarity of vision thing seems somewhat irrelevant for these purposes, given that the OP is limited to the PHB, DMG, and all of the monster manuals. Also, you have an odd love of putting crossbows on monks, which I haven't even begun to understand. I mean, I'm not saying the monk shouldn't have some sort of crossbow, but a single weapon and an inaccessible abilities seems pretty far from saying, "I could not disagree more." That's more like, "I agree completely, except it'd be nice if he was using a crossbow."

[nyjastul69]

I would actually suggest dipping monk for a level or two. It's closer to mercury19's original vision and it will help in not accidentally breaking the game. Druids are very capable of that. My guess is that it's not a high op game.

[eggynack]

Druid 20 gives you an additional use of elemental wildshape, the ability to turn into a huge elemental, and once extra slot of 8th and 9th level. In core/SRD only that isn't all that great and honestly the single 9th level slot is the one thing that is really good on that list (and even then the only really good 9th level Druid spells in core are Shapechange and and Foresight, both of which are already 10 minutes per level, doubled with a greater rod of extend) while Monk 1 gives you Wis to AC (and IUS for what its worth) that applies in all forms.

EDIT: Outside of core a Wilding Clasp Monks Belt is a far better choice but without that, Monk 1/Druid 19 is strictly better in core/SRD only than Druid 20.

---
The OP also wants to play something at least somewhat monk like. Turning into a full casting dinosaur is pretty far away from that.
I really don't think we're comparing a druid 20 to a monk 1/druid 19. Those two things are comparable in terms of power. What we're comparing is stuff like a druid 8 to a monk 1/druid 7, or a druid 3 to a monk 1/ druid 2. Level 20 is one of the only times in the entire game when another druid level isn't going to help much, and it's possibly the most irrelevant for these low level circumstances. Also, there's a bunch of stuff he can be that's not a dinosaur, and is also better than being a monk. I'd like to know more about the OP's specific desires before moving forward with suggestions, but there are a ton of great things out there. Long story short, you're heavily biasing the results by only looking at the build from the perspective of a completed, level 20, character.

[Emperor Tippy]

I could not disagree more. That build lacks Clarity of Vision or similar methods of detecting invisible creatures (for auto-spotting invisible targets), it also isn't carrying a crossbow or other ranged weaponry, which is an important backup.

What you should have done is paid the 5,275 GP to get a permanent See Invisible from scrolls and the 8,000 GP to get permanent invisible Arcane Sight in the same manner.

That you didn't pick them up really says everything about you trying to make a Mage Killer monk.

[mercury19]

ALright, started rolling up a character. I decided to go straight druid, you guys convinced me. If I change my mind I'll be back to do a Cleric.


Anyhow, got 16, 15, 15, 12, 12, 11

I should also mention that my DM does ability modifiers different. 10 is +0, 11-12 is +1, 13-14 is +2, so on.

I put the 16 in Wis, and one 15 in Con. What next, do you think?

I plan on being very melee oriented, probably with summoning and battle spells coming second. 15 in Str, 12 in dex and int, 11 in Cha.

As a human, I'll get two feats.
probably quick draw and one feat that removes a spell component requirement, or that eliminates requirement for prep.

Then there is equipment. Per the DM's orders, I get two weapons, armor, and the bare essentials (food, water, shelter, torches.) Thinking Hide armor and spear, not sure about secondary weapon.

Other questions:
Should I choose a different race a trade an extra feat and skill points for ability modifiers, or just wait for wild shape?

@GAvinfoxx: I'll ask my DM about coming in the same level, but not likely.

THanks, m19

[nyjastul69]

It seems your DM is doing ability modifiers per the book. What do you think it's different from?

Never mind. :smallredface:

[Pickford]

What you should have done is paid the 5,275 GP to get a permanent See Invisible from scrolls and the 8,000 GP to get permanent invisible Arcane Sight in the same manner.

That you didn't pick them up really says everything about you trying to make a Mage Killer monk.

Isn't this just you saying I'm right that the monk I put together isn't a valid example of a mage-killer?

[angry_bear]

If you really wanted to go Monk, and were starting at an appropriate level (The same as the rest of the party) I'd have suggested Githzerai as your race. It's a +2 level adjustment, but the abilities more than make up for it, especially since it was pretty much designed for the Monk class. Since it's in the Monster Manual, it is available with the books you have on hand.

Also, weapon finesse and improved initiative are vital for a monk. The class is difficult to play, but if you can make it work, it's effective. The class is mostly about how you combo your attacks. First round of combat you won't be able to use Flurry of Blows, but you can land a stunning fist, and if you've got half decent wisdom (Although as a Monk you should have at least a 16 Wisdom), your opponent will have a tough time making their save. Next round of combat you flurry, and on your final strike you deliver another stunning fist to lock them down again.

If you're starting at level 1 while the rest of your party is level 6 minimum though; I'd play a Druid. Like, it's pretty much the only class that has a strong chance of survival with that level gap.

[Emperor Tippy]

I really don't think we're comparing a druid 20 to a monk 1/druid 19. Those two things are comparable in terms of power. What we're comparing is stuff like a druid 8 to a monk 1/druid 7, or a druid 3 to a monk 1/ druid 2. Level 20 is one of the only times in the entire game when another druid level isn't going to help much, and it's possibly the most irrelevant for these low level circumstances. Also, there's a bunch of stuff he can be that's not a dinosaur, and is also better than being a monk. I'd like to know more about the OP's specific desires before moving forward with suggestions, but there are a ton of great things out there. Long story short, you're heavily biasing the results by only looking at the build from the perspective of a completed, level 20, character.

Monk 1/Druid 2 is better than core only Druid 3 (none of the core Druid level 2 spells are particularly stellar, at least good enough to overcome the additional constant +5 AC.

Monk 1/Wildshape Ranger 2 is better than the above or Druid 3 (core/SRD only).

Monk 1/ Druid 4 is worse than Druid 5 but that is pretty much solely because of Wildshape.

I could continue.

The core only druid spell list is nice but it's not that impressive. In conjunction with an animal companion, wildshape, and natural spell it becomes a lot more impressive but when you are only really giving up one level of casting there is no real point where you are like "damn it, I'm missing out on a really great spell".

That isn't the case with a Cleric or (especially) a Wizard or Sorcerer; everyone of their core spell lists has someone on every level that you really don't want to delay getting.

[sonofzeal]

ALright, started rolling up a character. I decided to go straight druid, you guys convinced me. If I change my mind I'll be back to do a Cleric.


Anyhow, got 16, 15, 15, 12, 12, 11

I should also mention that my DM does ability modifiers different. 10 is +0, 11-12 is +1, 13-14 is +2, so on.

I put the 16 in Wis, and one 15 in Con. What next, do you think?

I plan on being very melee oriented, probably with summoning and battle spells coming second. 15 in Str, 12 in dex and int, 11 in Cha.

As a human, I'll get two feats.
probably quick draw and one feat that removes a spell component requirement, or that eliminates requirement for prep.

Then there is equipment. Per the DM's orders, I get two weapons, armor, and the bare essentials (food, water, shelter, torches.) Thinking Hide armor and spear, not sure about secondary weapon.

Other questions:
Should I choose a different race a trade an extra feat and skill points for ability modifiers, or just wait for wild shape?

@GAvinfoxx: I'll ask my DM about coming in the same level, but not likely.

THanks, m19
Please note that, depending on your DM, melee druid may be a serious liability. A pure Druid's AC in Wildshape is generally going to suck unless they take significant steps, and a vast array of level-appropriate challenges can literally drop you from full health in a single round. The most important question to ask is, how does your DM feel about getting barding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#bardingMediumCreatureandLarge Creature) for your Wildshape forms? If that's a go, sure, turn into something nasty long before combat (Wildshape lasts hours), have your teammates suit you up while they're doing the Fighter (Full Plate also takes assistance to put on), and you'll be fine.

But the real power of the Druid is from their flexible spell list and summoning. Use those. Leave face-punching to the classes that don't get to channel the raw fury of gaia.

[eggynack]

ALright, started rolling up a character. I decided to go straight druid, you guys convinced me. If I change my mind I'll be back to do a Cleric.


Anyhow, got 16, 15, 15, 12, 12, 11

I should also mention that my DM does ability modifiers different. 10 is +0, 11-12 is +1, 13-14 is +2, so on.

I put the 16 in Wis, and one 15 in Con. What next, do you think?

I plan on being very melee oriented, probably with summoning and battle spells coming second. 15 in Str, 12 in dex and int, 11 in Cha.

As a human, I'll get two feats.
probably quick draw and one feat that removes a spell component requirement, or that eliminates requirement for prep.

Then there is equipment. Per the DM's orders, I get two weapons, armor, and the bare essentials (food, water, shelter, torches.) Thinking Hide armor and spear, not sure about secondary weapon.

Other questions:
Should I choose a different race a trade an extra feat and skill points for ability modifiers, or just wait for wild shape?

@GAvinfoxx: I'll ask my DM about coming in the same level, but not likely.

THanks, m19
Your stat layout is fine, due to the fact that you're prioritizing wisdom and constitution. I'd personally switch strength for intelligence, but it's not a huge deal. If you get to start at a later level, you should definitely make the switch, because wild shape replaces your strength and dexterity. For the feats, I'd advise against both quick draw, and eschew material components. They just don't do much for you. As I mentioned, augment summoning is pretty great, though you could always go with straight melee stuff if you're so inclined.

A spear is fine, and perhaps your second weapon should be something ranged, like a sling. You also might want a quarter staff, because it combos with spells like brambles. Really, the way to be melee oriented as a low level druid, is to not enter melee at all. A riding dog has better combat statistics than you do, so you should ideally send that into battle in your stead. I'd stick with humans, because there isn't much better in core. The rest of my advice is in other posts, I think, though you can ask for other specific stuff, if you like.

[Emperor Tippy]

It seems your DM is doing ability modifiers per the book. What do you think it's different from?

17 would be a +4, 19 would be a +5, etc.


Isn't this just you saying I'm right that the monk I put together isn't a valid example of a mage-killer?

Yes, it's nice of you to admit that your monk isn't a valid mage killer. You might, however, want to post that in the thread.

[mercury19]

just read all the new posts: I am still interested in doing something monk like. However, Druid looks pretty dang awesome. Due to my ability roles, I have a low dex, so Wis would help my AC a bunch. As for optimization, I didn't even know that that existed before this last Sunday, and previous to this leveling up has been so inconsistent the best way to play in our campaigns has been hack and slash. So I'll talk to my DM about multicalssing a Monk/Druid.

@nyjastul: In the book, I thought it said 10-11 was +1, 12-13 was +2, etc, but I could be wrong.

EDIT: holy balls, trying to keep up with posts on this forum is like running a sprint! Most other places I've been, it takes days to get anything. THanks so much for the help!:smallbiggrin:

Thanks, m19

[nyjastul69]

just read all the new posts: I am still interested in doing something monk like. However, Druid looks pretty dang awesome. Due to my ability roles, I have a low dex, so Wis would help my AC a bunch. As for optimization, I didn't even know that that existed before this last Sunday, and previous to this leveling up has been so inconsistent the best way to play in our campaigns has been hack and slash. So I'll talk to my DM about multicalssing a Monk/Druid.

@nyjastul: In the book, I thought it said 10-11 was +1, 12-13 was +2, etc, but I could be wrong.

You are correct. Post amended. I attribute it to being tired. Or a brain fart. Yeah, that's it, a brain fart.

[Gavinfoxx]

10-11: +0
12-13: +1
14-15: +2
16-17: +3

It was different in earlier editions.

And you want to max wisdom, then con.

And it sounds like you want monk1, druid rest. How DOES your DM feel about 'Barding' though? Armor is a thing!

[mercury19]

You are correct. Post amended. I attribute it to being tired. Or a brain fart. Yeah, that's it, a brain fart.

Meh, it happens to us all.

Another question. I saw that somewhere that bracers were a good thing to enchant. Where does one get those?

And also, I've seen mentioned the Monk's Belt and Wilding Clasp. They both sound pretty good. However, only one is in the DMG. The other was in some other book, the Wilding Clasp I think. Is there a way to replicate that effect?

And another thing, though I don't think it should affect to much, I have access to the Weapons of Legacy, and the Draco-nom-nom-nomicon is at my public library.

EDIT: As for barding, I'm sure it would be fine. I have at least one pair of in game hands to help out, provided I can communicate.

Thanks, m19

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, if you want to replicate the use of a Wilding Clasp (Magic Item Compendium) without one, here is how:

1.) Get a favorite form or set of forms that are very consistent with one another (bears? big cats? bipedal dinosaurs like deinonychus [what the Raptors in Jurassic Park were based on...]?).
2.) Get your equipment -- magic items included! -- customized to fit that form. This works well for things that are like bracelets, bangles, collars, armor barding, etc. etc. Magic items resize somewhat to fit forms, if enabled to. Especially go for adjustable sizes! Remember, Draconomicon talks about precedent for putting magic items on quadrupeds of varying shape...
3.) Wild Shape into your form, not wearing anything more than basic clothes to start. The clothes meld
4.) Put your gear on with the help of your friends, including the amulet of thought projection (in collar form?) so you can speak with your friends
5.) Go adventuring. Remember you can Wild Shape constantly by Druid level 8.

[Emperor Tippy]

Meh, it happens to us all.

Another question. I saw that somewhere that bracers were a good thing to enchant. Where does one get those?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bracersofArmor

You can trade the AC bonus for armor enchantments on a 1 to 1 basis. And technically you can go up to +12 worth of such enchantments (leaving the +1 for armor).


And also, I've seen mentioned the Monk's Belt and Wilding Clasp. They both sound pretty good. However, only one is in the DMG. The other was in some other book, the Wilding Clasp I think. Is there a way to replicate that effect?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#wild

But it only applies to armor. Your DM might possibly let you pay to apply it to a Monks Belt.

[Gavinfoxx]

Cursed Amulet of Thought Projection! DMG/SRD. Look it up! ;)

[nyjastul69]

Weapons of Legacy has probably been ignored because it's a great example of the wrong execution of the right idea. The penalties simply aren't worth the rewards. As DM I drop the penalties and leave everything else as is.

[Gavinfoxx]

Weapons of Legacy has probably been ignored because it's a great example of the wrong execution of the right idea. The penalties simply aren't worth the rewards. As DM I drop the penalties and leave everything else as is.

This. Weapons of Legacy is sort of okay if you can found your own legacy without spending feats or anything, and custom choose the penalties to be completely irrelevant to your character. Otherwise, it's a badly done book -- to the point where it works fine if you remove all the penalties associated with it.

Also, ARMOR:

It's education time! Gavin talks about wooden armors!

Okay. Per the PHB and the SRD, in the "craft" section, at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm:

"A successful Craft check related to woodworking in conjunction with the casting of the ironwood spell enables you to make wooden items that have the strength of steel."

In the Ironwood spell description, it says, at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ironwood.htm:

"Effect: An ironwood object weighing up to 5 lb./level"

and

"Using this spell with wood shape or a wood-related Craft check, you can fashion wooden items that function as steel items. Thus, wooden plate armor and wooden swords can be created that are as durable as their normal steel counterparts. These items are freely usable by druids.

Further, if you make only half as much ironwood as the spell would normally allow, any weapon, shield, or suit of armor so created is treated as a magic item with a +1 enhancement bonus."

In the goods and services section, it says, at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm:

"Spell, 6th-level Caster level × 60 gp"

In the Druid section, at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm, it says that the minimum character and caster level for a 6th level spell is 11.

In the Special Materials section, it says, at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm:

"Darkwood

This rare magic wood is as hard as normal wood but very light. Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type. Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood. The armor check penalty of a darkwood shield is lessened by 2 compared to an ordinary shield of its type. To determine the price of a darkwood item, use the original weight but add 10 gp per pound to the price of a masterwork version of that item.

Darkwood has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 5."

In the Armor section, it says, at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm:

"Breastplate .... 200 gp ... 30 lb."
and
"A masterwork suit of armor or shield costs an extra 150 gp over and above the normal cost for that type of armor or shield."

So, combined, what does this mean?

1. Make a Masterwork Darkwood Breastplate. 200 gp + 150 gp for masterwork + 300 gp for darkwood. If your craft check is high enough to do this yourself (or you use Wood Shape), you can shave quite a bit of money off of the price of this.
2. As part of the crafting, pay an 11th level Druid to cast a CL 11 Ironwood on it. This should work on an object up to 55 lbs. Further, since the actual Darkwood breastplate weighs half the normal weight -- 15 lbs instead of 30 -- it invokes the 'half as much ironwood as the spell would normally allow' clause, and the item becomes +1. The cost of spellcasting services of an 11th level Druid casting Ironwood is 11 x 60, or 660 gp.
3. Enjoy your swank new armor! Many DMs rule that the +1 is permanent and won't go away; some GMs rule that the +1 goes away when the Ironwood spell runs out in a few days. Regardless, it is Masterwork Light armor, like Mithral, and is as strong as steel, and doesn't burn like wood, and is as resistant to fire as steel.. see the following..

Now... looking at 3.0e and 3.5e, a Darkwood armor *was* possible. In Dragon Magazine 279 pg 49, Darkwood armor (described as treated with alchemical leaves) has spell failure chance decreased by 5%, max dex bonus increased by +2, armor check penalties decreased by 2, and it is treated as 1 category lighter. This was updated to 3.5e in Eberron Campaign Setting, and given the exact same stats, but called "Darkleaf". This is ever so slightly worse than Mithral.

But what are we doing? We are replacing the Alchemical treatment with a magical treatment... and paying 1310 for an armor in a very profound way, likely has the stats almost (but not quite) equivalent to a "+1 Mithral Breastplate", or at least a Mithral Breastplate. The canon alchemically treated Darkwood armors cost, for a +1 version, 3450 gp, in both the 3.0e and the 3.5e version. If the DMs let the Ironwood bit be permanent (Rules as Written isn't clear), this gets you basically the same thing for 1310 gp. Also compare it to a +1 Mithral Breastplate, which costs 5200 gp.

Now, let's look at the OTHER materials.

Per Eberron campaign setting page 126, a like iron, albeit a tad lighter, but made out of wood material is Bronzewood. A +1 Bronzewood Breastplate would cost 5200 gp.

Per Magic of Faerun page 178, a +1 Duskwood Breastplate is 4200 gp. This one is most similar to Mithral of the woods (even more than the Darkleaf, thus making it BETTER), with a Duskwood Breastplate being armor bonus +5, maximum dex bonus +4, armor check penalty -2, arcane spell failure of 20%, and it is light armor.

Coldwood is in Dragon Magazine #357 page 55. A +1 Coldwood Breastplate costs 3200 gp, and a mundane version of this acts exactly like a steel breastplate.

Bluewood is in Unapproachable East page 58. It is an alchemically treated wood. A +1 Bluewood Breastplate costs 1800 gp, and a mundane version acts like a steel breastplate.

Also, Druids can use any of these armors completely without problem... and remember! The Animal Companions of the Druids don't share their oath; they can use metal armor just fine. Get these (generally nonproficient) Mithral Chain Shirt Barding, for +0 ACP, if you have the cash.

Any questions on the lesson?

[mercury19]

Uhmmm... I have no GP, although I had like 900 on my previous character, If I can get my companions to give it to me. Otherwise, that sounds awesome.

ALso, is caster level like the level you have in your caster class?

Thanks, m19

[Gavinfoxx]

You might not know, but you are supposed to start the game at the same effective character level as everyone else, and with a particular amount of wealth appropriate to that level. These tend to be very important parts of the game, and they are described in the DMG.

You should read this:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4189.0

Especially Prime32's post.

[nyjastul69]

Uhmmm... I have no GP, although I had like 900 on my previous character, If I can get my companions to give it to me. Otherwise, that sounds awesome.

ALso, is caster level like the level you have in your caster class?

Thanks, m19

Yes, a spell's caster level is usually the spellcaster's class level. Due note the 'usually', there are ways to increase caster level outside of increasing class levels.

[Gavinfoxx]

You will need to be Lawful Neutral to be a Monk/Druid.

[shaikujin]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bracersofArmor

You can trade the AC bonus for armor enchantments on a 1 to 1 basis. And technically you can go up to +12 worth of such enchantments (leaving the +1 for armor).


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#wild

But it only applies to armor. Your DM might possibly let you pay to apply it to a Monks Belt.

Piping in here since I have a stake in this doing your challenge :D

The way it's been explained to me is that +1 to +8 bracers of Armor gives an Armor bonus to AC.

You can further enhance it normally to give it +1 to +5 Enhancement bonus to AC. And another +5 Enhancement bonus worth of properties.

Hence, max you can get for bracers is 8 + 5 = 13 AC.


However, the Armor bonus to AC for the bracers is calculated using the same expensive B*B*1000 formula like magic enhancement. Similar to robes of the Archmagi (but those robes only give 5 Armor bonus to AC).

[Emperor Tippy]

Piping in here since I have a stake in this doing your challenge :D

The way it's been explained to me is that +1 to +8 bracers of Armor gives an Armor bonus to AC.

You can further enhance it normally to give it +1 to +5 Enhancement bonus to AC. And another +5 Enhancement bonus worth of properties.

Hence, max you can get for bracers is 8 + 5 = 13 AC.


However, the Armor bonus to AC for the bracers is calculated using the same expensive B*B*1000 formula like magic enhancement. Similar to robes of the Archmagi (but those robes only give 5 Armor bonus to AC).
You would be wrong.

Bracers of Armor can not provide more than a +8 Armor bonus but they can be up to +13 effective items, they aren't however limited to only having +5 (or even +10) worth of enchantments on them.


Bracers of Armor and Armor Special Abilities

A character who has the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats, as well as mage armor and all the other prerequisites necessary, can add the armor special abilities shown on Table 8–6 in the DUNGEONMASTER’s Guide to a set of bracers of armor.

The cost is the same as for adding a special ability to normal armor: an increase in the effective bonus of the bracers. Just as magic armor can never exceed a +8 enhancement bonus, bracers of armor never provide more than a +8 armor bonus. However, special abilities can increase the effective bonus as high as +13 (bracers +8with an ability valued at +5, such as heavy fortification).

The market prices for bracers of armor with an effective bonus higher than +8 are as follows: 81,000 gp (+9), 100,000 gp (+10), 121,000 gp (+11), 144,000 gp (+12), 169,000 gp (+13). Any special ability that can be added to armor can be added to bracers of armor. Armor qualities with a cost expressed in gp rather than an effective bonus can be added to bracers for the same price.

If you are using the Epic Level Handbook,characters with Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Epic Wondrous Item can create bracers of armor with a higher effective bonus than +13. To calculate the market price for such items, square the total effective bonus and multiply the result by 10,000 gp.

That's the relevant rules.

[shaikujin]

You would be wrong.

Bracers of Armor can not provide more than a +8 Armor bonus but they can be up to +13 effective items, they aren't however limited to only having +5 (or even +10) worth of enchantments on them.



That's the relevant rules.


That section also mentions this:

"Just as magic armor can never exceed a +8 enhancement bonus"


Which doesn't apply to 3.5, right?

Any chance that you'll reconsider?

[Emperor Tippy]

That section also mentions this:

"Just as magic armor can never exceed a +8 enhancement bonus"


Which doesn't apply to 3.5, right?

Any chance that you'll reconsider?

Nope, that's the rule. You get three extra points of goodies so it's a trade off. Besides, buy a Scroll of Extended Persistent Mailed Might of the Magelords (remember you need the Arcane Thesis, Easy Meta, Invisible, Cooperative, Sanctum version so that it's still a 5th level slot).

[shaikujin]

Nope, that's the rule. You get three extra points of goodies so it's a trade off. Besides, buy a Scroll of Extended Persistent Mailed Might of the Magelords (remember you need the Arcane Thesis, Easy Meta, Invisible, Cooperative, Sanctum version so that it's still a 5th level slot).

Will you count that against me if I use Mailed Might of the Magelords in your challenge?

[Pickford]

17 would be a +4, 19 would be a +5, etc.

Yes, it's nice of you to admit that your monk isn't a valid mage killer. You might, however, want to post that in the thread.

Why bother? If he wins that just proves Monks are better :smalltongue:

edit: And if he loses, nobody has their world's foundations rocked :smallwink:

[Emperor Tippy]

Will you count that against me if I use Mailed Might of the Magelords in your challenge?

Probably not.

[shaikujin]

Probably not.

:D *runs to replace Greater Mage Armor on his build*


You know what? Before I thought replacing my spell, I thought that paragraph mean "magic armor" as in "magically crafted armor", rather than "Magic Amor" the spell.

That's why I thought it was wonky for magically armor to be capped at +8. Hah!

Learned a good spell today, thanks!

[shaikujin]

:D *runs to replace Greater Mage Armor on his build*


You know what? Before I thought replacing my spell, I thought that paragraph mean "magic armor" as in "magically crafted armor", rather than "Magic Amor" the spell.

That's why I thought it was wonky for magically armor to be capped at +8. Hah!

Learned a good spell today, thanks!

Hmmm... Still think I'm missing something. Was Mage Armor called Magic Armor in 3.0? And later renamed?

AE&G is 3.0 material right?

What exactly did they mean by "Just as magic armor can never exceed a +8 enhancement bonus" ?