V for vegetarian?

[Ron Miel]

Is Vaarsuvius a vegetarian?
Are elves usually vegetarian in D&D?


I don't think it's been stated outright, but he's never been shown eating meat.

Evidence:

1) Not shown eating bar-b-q monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0099.html)

2) has grapefruit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html)for breakfast, while his friends eat bacon. Twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0401.html).

3) Has white truffle soufle for dinner (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html)

4) provided with hummus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0747.html), while the others were offered pegasus and phoenix

5) Says in SS&DT that he has a tofu-based diet. That may be out of continuity, though.

[137beth]

Huh...

Also, his mate cooks banana muffins, which are totally vegetarian.

[Sunken Valley]

I wouldn't like that to be true.

I don't like the idea that Elves have to be vegetarian because they're a wiser and superior race. Or more often than not, because the author is vegetarian and his ideal race must be to (Paolini).

I don't like the idea of any race being a "superior race" as per author backing.

[Angel Bob]

Hmm, you could be on to something...

...on V's diet, at least. On the subject of gender, I feel you're barking up the wrong tree entirely. :smalltongue:

And no one's saying V would be vegetarian because "elves are superior", not even in the comic. No need to overthink it; perhaps she just happens to be vegetarian.

[Turgon9357]

The various fantasy settings I've seen have usually had something like that. I've never seen strict vegetarian diets (forgive my failure to use more specific and proper terminology), but a strong preference for non-meat products is present. Sort of a "I really, really would rather not have meat but if I must then I will" mentality.

[137beth]

I wouldn't like that to be true.

I don't like the idea that Elves have to be vegetarian because they're a wiser and superior race. Or more often than not, because the author is vegetarian and his ideal race must be to (Paolini).

I don't like the idea of any race being a "superior race" as per author backing.

Who said anything about all elves being vegetarian:smallconfused: Next thing ya know, you will be saying that no humans should be vegetarian, because it would mean all humans were.

[Bird]

It wouldn't surprise me if OotS elves, or at least V in particular, considers eating meat to be a bit uncouth, a bit Yahoo. In personality, our vulcan-in-fantasy-drag is more Houyhnhnm than Yahoo, anyway.

Stereotypically, meat eating is often considered masculine and vegetarianism more effeminate, which may also play into it -- elves being one of the races which is more ladylike, whereas dwarves and such are more manly.

As Angel Bob said, though, this wouldn't make elves universally superior. There have been plenty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html) of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html) times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html) when they've done things that we're supposed to question.

[Bird]

Who said anything about all elves being vegetarian:smallconfused: Next thing ya know, you will be saying that no humans should be vegetarian, because it would mean all humans were.
If V is a vegetarian, it's at least conceivable this is due to a cultural consideration and not merely a personal preference. There are whole human cultures which are vegetarian, after all.

It's even conceivable (although we have no evidence for this) that a biological consideration would make elves eschew meat. ...although that would fit awkwardly with the "woodland hunter" stereotype, which we haven't seen much of in OotS.

[137beth]

It's even conceivable (although we have no evidence for this) that a biological consideration would make elves eschew meat.
That would make them herbivorous :smallwink:

[Bird]

That would make them herbivorous :smallwink:
It might, or it might also make them omnivores who get cases of indigestion. :smallsmile:

[The Giant]

Yes, V is a vegetarian.

This is not, however, any sort of blunt statement about elven superiority, simply because I do not actually subscribe to the idea that elves are superior in the first place. You may not have noticed, but the elves as a people haven't exactly made much of an impact on this story, and they certainly don't display any greater wisdom.

And considering that the strip has gone almost 900 pages before anyone even noticed means that I'm not going to take anyone's complaints about it seriously. I have a right to include some characters who share the same philosophies as myself in my own story without it being some sort of controversy. Two characters (neither of whom really discuss it) in a cast of dozens is no great burden on the reading public.

[Zmeoaice]

I wouldn't like that to be true.

I don't like the idea that Elves have to be vegetarian because they're a wiser and superior race. Or more often than not, because the author is vegetarian and his ideal race must be to (Paolini).


Which is kind of funny since Giant is a vegetarian. But I thought the idea came from Elves generally being close to nature and respecting living things instead of thinking they are superior.

[oppyu]

Yes, V is a vegetarian.

This is not, however, any sort of blunt statement about elven superiority, simply because I do not actually subscribe to the idea that elves are superior in the first place. You may not have noticed, but the elves as a people haven't exactly made much of an impact on this story, and they certainly don't display any greater wisdom.

And considering that the strip has gone almost 900 pages before anyone even noticed means that I'm not going to take anyone's complaints about it seriously. I have a right to include some characters who share the same philosophies as myself in my own story without it being some sort of controversy. Two characters (neither of whom really discuss it) in a cast of dozens is no great burden on the reading public.
Huh, that's a cool detail. Are there any other little character pieces like that which have been shown in-comic but not pointed out because they haven't, nor will they ever be plot-relevant?

[The Giant]

Huh, that's a cool detail. Are there any other little character pieces like that which have been shown in-comic but not pointed out because they haven't, nor will they ever be plot-relevant?

Yes. ...........

[ti'esar]

Two characters?

[Bird]

Could refer to Inky, who baked the banana nut muffins as 137ben mentioned, or...

Wait, did Celia make a reference to being a vegetarian at some point?

Edit: yes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0564.html). It's Celia.

[oppyu]

Yes. ...........
Would you be willing to reveal a couple of those in this thread? Or alternatively, the second vegetarian?

EDIT: Ah, Celia, Nevermind that part.

[BirdHarvester]

Evidence:

1) Not shown eating bar-b-q monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0099.html)

2) has grapefruit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html)for breakfast, while his friends eat bacon. Twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0401.html).

3) Has white truffle soufle for dinner (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html)

4) provided with hummus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0747.html), while the others were offered pegasus and phoenix

5) Says in SS&DT that he has a tofu-based diet. That may be out of continuity, though.
Not that it matters anymore, but this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html) is another example.

[Ron Miel]

Yes, V is a vegetarian.

Thank you, Giant.


This is not, however, any sort of blunt statement about elven superiority, simply because I do not actually subscribe to the idea that elves are superior in the first place.

But you think elves are awesome (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html), right?




I have a right to include some characters who share the same philosophies as myself in my own story without it being some sort of controversy. Two characters (neither of whom really discuss it) in a cast of dozens is no great burden on the reading public.

Two? Who is the second? V's spouse, possibly, but s/he's only a minor character so far. Or Haley? We saw her eat salad for New Year's supper, and pancakes for breakfast. I don't think we've ever seen her eat meat.

Let the speculation commence.

Edit - Ah, Celia. Of course.

Edit again - Haley's not vegetarian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0564.html)

[CRtwenty]

Wow, I never noticed. Yet it makes so much sense.

[Flame of Anor]

But you think elves are awesome (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html), right?

Yeah, it's definitely a good idea when you have to explicitly hide it from the paladin.

[EmperorSarda]

Yeah, it's definitely a good idea when you have to explicitly hide it from the paladin.

Were they hiding it from the Paladin so much as roundabout criticizing the two humans for following orders to a T? Cause I doubt even Than would have accepted the Hobgoblin in their ranks.

[Porthos]

Yeah, it's definitely a good idea when you have to explicitly hide it from the paladin.

SIDE NOTE: Is this whole 'blue for sarcasm' a new thing on the board? I've just noticed it in the last couple of days.

[ti'esar]

Yeah, it's definitely a good idea when you have to explicitly hide it from the paladin.

I'm pretty sure that (what you're quoting, not the comic) was a joke.

[Porthos]

Were they hiding it from the Paladin so much as roundabout criticizing the two humans for following orders to a T? Cause I doubt even Than would have accepted the Hobgoblin in their ranks.


I'm pretty sure that (what you're quoting, not the comic) was a joke.

Flame of Anor is being sarcastic, I believe. Apparently this whole 'Use a blue font to denote a sarcastic sentence' is a thing now. That's my interpetation at least.

Personally, I prefer this:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/BuckGodot/Icons/icon_sarcasm.gif

More my style. :smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

Wait, why are people implying banana nut muffins are a vegetarian dish? Are meat muffins a popular thing? :smallconfused:


Were they hiding it from the Paladin so much as roundabout criticizing the two humans for following orders to a T? Cause I doubt even Than would have accepted the Hobgoblin in their ranks.

A human is the one who suggests hiding it from Thanh. Why would he be criticizing the two humans which include himself?

[Grey Watcher]

Yes, V is a vegetarian.

This is not, however, any sort of blunt statement about elven superiority, simply because I do not actually subscribe to the idea that elves are superior in the first place. You may not have noticed, but the elves as a people haven't exactly made much of an impact on this story, and they certainly don't display any greater wisdom.

And considering that the strip has gone almost 900 pages before anyone even noticed means that I'm not going to take anyone's complaints about it seriously. I have a right to include some characters who share the same philosophies as myself in my own story without it being some sort of controversy. Two characters (neither of whom really discuss it) in a cast of dozens is no great burden on the reading public.

For what little it's worth, I noticed some time ago. It just seemed like a neat little detail. :smallsmile:

[ti'esar]

Flame of Anor is being sarcastic, I believe. Apparently this whole 'Use a blue font to denote a sarcastic sentence' is a thing now. That's my interpetation at least.

Personally, I prefer this:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/BuckGodot/Icons/icon_sarcasm.gif

More my style. :smalltongue:

I know Flame of Anor is being sarcastic (although I don't know where this blue font thing came from either). What I'm not sure of is why, because Ron Miel's comment was certainly not meant to be taken at face value either.

[Flame of Anor]

I know Flame of Anor is being sarcastic (although I don't know where this blue font thing came from either). What I'm not sure of is why, because Ron Miel's comment was certainly not meant to be taken at face value either.

Just playing along.

[Knaight]

Wait, why are people implying banana nut muffins are a vegetarian dish? Are meat muffins a popular thing? :smallconfused:

They are food and don't contain meat, ergo they are a vegetarian dish. It's not a particularly exclusive category.

[Sky_Schemer]

They are food and don't contain meat, ergo they are a vegetarian dish. It's not a particularly exclusive category.

To be fair, muffins can be made with lard which can be significantly more objectionable to a vegetarian than, say, butter.

[Porthos]

To be fair, muffins can be made with lard which can be significantly more objectionable to a vegetarian than, say, butter.

'Cruelty free' muffins, then. :smallwink:

[SiuiS]

Oh, cool. A vegetarian Giant.! :smallbiggrin:

[Ron Miel]

Wait, why are people implying banana nut muffins are a vegetarian dish? Are meat muffins a popular thing?

Ever seen McDonald's breakfast menu?

[thereaper]

Guys, guys. Just because one character of a particular race happens to be vegetarian does not mean the entire race is.

Furthermore, it's not some covert statement by the author about vegetarianism (or other diets).

It just means that a single character happens to be a vegetarian. Nothing more.

[Ron Miel]

Well said.

[Bird]

Guys, guys. Just because one character of a particular race happens to be vegetarian does not mean the entire race is.

It does not entail that "the entire race" is such, no. But -- especially in a fantasy context -- it may be indicative of such.

Let's take Celia's case. Consider that she as well as her two faerie friends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) all appear to be vegan. It's entirely plausible that veganism or vegetarianism are species-wide traits. Could be a cultural thing, or they could be physically incapable of digesting meat. (I grant that "all three happen to be vegans" is also a possibility.)

V's case would be on shakier ground, I think, because we don't have much evidence of other vegetarian elves, and we may have a harder time accepting that non-magical beings are all alike. (The Giant has indicated, for instance, that he is more comfortable with blatantly supernatural creatures being "always" one alignment than he is with respect to non-supernatural creatures like goblins.)

On a related point, the strip has, in the past, lampshaded the fact (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html) that fantasy races often have monocultures in which all individuals are practically indistinguishable from the others. Durkon loves his beer, as does every other dwarf. We don't have evidence to say that this is in fact the case with V's vegetarianism -- and there may be very good reasons to suspect that it is not the case -- but you can't fault folks for pursuing it as a line of inquiry or speculation.

[ti'esar]

We do have an additional reason for believing the elves are somewhat monocultural: unlike some of the other races, but like the dwarves, they appear to only have a single nation (one which largely keeps to itself, even).

[Raimun]

I wouldn't like that to be true.

I don't like the idea that Elves have to be vegetarian because they're a wiser and superior race.

I don't see your concern. Elves don't have a bonus to Wisdom.

Edit: Also, most people would agree human racial bonuses are superior to what elves get.

[CRtwenty]

I don't see your concern. Elves don't have a bonus to Wisdom.

Edit: Also, most people would agree human racial bonuses are superior to what elves get.

Well excluding that whole lifespan thing. Though there's a funny bit regarding that in the Origin of PCs.

[Morty]

On a related point, the strip has, in the past, lampshaded the fact (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html) that fantasy races often have monocultures in which all individuals are practically indistinguishable from the others. Durkon loves his beer, as does every other dwarf. We don't have evidence to say that this is in fact the case with V's vegetarianism -- and there may be very good reasons to suspect that it is not the case -- but you can't fault folks for pursuing it as a line of inquiry or speculation.

Yes, we can. V has shown plenty of traits no other elves share with her - Lirian, Inkyrius and the specieist commander aren't nearly as loquacious. Nor do they evoke first and ask questions later. V's vegetarianism is just that - V's vegetarianism. It's nonsensical to take it as a hint it's more common among elves than among any other race. Or are we going to start assuming halflings are knife murderers until proven otherwise?

[Kish]

Clearly, the reason Serini was able to convince the rest of the Order of the Scribble to go along with her proposed compromise was because they knew her second offer would be "I murder you all."

What?

[Ron Miel]

V's vegetarianism is just that - V's vegetarianism. It's nonsensical to take it as a hint it's more common among elves than among any other race.

One thing that occurs to me. The Elven ambassador (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html)was among the diners at Tarquin's banquet.

Yes, I know it was Z in disguise. But if he was pretending to be a vegetarian elf, he would have declined the invitation.

I deduce, therefore, that not all elves are vegetarian. And Z certainly isn't.

[BenjCano]

Yes, V is a vegetarian.

Self-Godwin: You know you what other mass murderer was also a vegetarian?

:biggrin:

[The Succubus]

Is there anyway we can use this new-found knowledge to determine V's gender? :smalltongue:

[mrzomby]

Ever seen McDonald's breakfast menu?

Most of what mcdonalds makes is not actually food though.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Tolkien's elves are all vegetarian, I believe.

[Domino Quartz]

Tolkien's elves are all vegetarian, I believe.

Why do you think that?

[Warren Dew]

Tolkien's elves are all vegetarian, I believe.
There's quite a bit about elves hunting in Tolkien. I suppose they could have used just the skins and left the meat to the wolves, but that doesn't seem terribly likely to me.

[veti]

Tolkien's elves are all vegetarian, I believe.

In 'The Hobbit', the wood elves are specifically described as roasting meat in their Mirkwood BBQs:

"The smell of the roast meats was so enchanting that, without waiting to consult one another, every one of them got up and scrambled forwards into the ring with the one idea of begging for some food."

[Bird]

Yes, we can. V has shown plenty of traits no other elves share with her - Lirian, Inkyrius and the specieist commander aren't nearly as loquacious. Nor do they evoke first and ask questions later. V's vegetarianism is just that - V's vegetarianism. It's nonsensical to take it as a hint it's more common among elves than among any other race. Or are we going to start assuming halflings are knife murderers until proven otherwise?
Please note that I did at no point assume that elves are all vegetarians. I have not claimed that all elves are vegetarians, that all elves are likely to be vegetarians, or that I believe all elves are vegetarians. My quite modest position is that "vegetarianism as a cultural or biological trait for elves is an interesting thing to speculate about." That's all. :smallsmile: Such a position does not even carry a burden of proof, I would argue, since it comes down to our individual preferences and interests.

I agree that V shows traits not shown by other elves, and that folks have not discussed the possibility of these being species-wide traits. V is not identical to all other elves. Cheerfully granted.

Folks on the gender debate thread have floated the all-elves-are-gender-ambiguous idea, which I find to be both unlikely and contradicted by the comic, but it is something fun to think about.

I agree we should not assume all halflings are knife murderers. (Though as an aside, Dark Sun halflings are a bit like that.) Strong reasons for discarding this hypothesis include:

1. Knife murdering is a wild contradiction of the stereotypical depiction of halflings.
2. The comic has clearly indicated that Belkar is abnormal in this respect.

I think the vegetarianism for elves claim is substantively different. To give one reason, it's possible to imagine vegetarianism fitting in with the stereotypical portrayal of elves. As a matter of fact, if we think of the popular close-to-nature representation of their race, it would make a sort of sense.

Again, it would be very similar to the "all dwarves like beer" claim, or the "all elves are trained to use a bow" claim, which are true or near-true as directly evidenced by the comic. D&D and fantasy literature in general are chock full of that stuff. And as ti'esar pointed out, the fact that all the elves come from the same secluded nation opens up the possibility that they have a standard fantasy monoculture, as the dwarves appear to have.

If someone wanted to say that the conception of elves as hunters contradicts the idea of elves as vegetarians, that'd be fine, but I think that vegetarianism would be an interesting twist on elves' nature-oriented ways.

Final point: part of the reason that I find the race-wide idea interesting is that it might be odd for V to be an ethical vegetarian while also being all about blowing monsters up with magic for most of his life. Vegetarianism as a cultural or biological trait would explain this away. Of course, it's VERY possible to have internal contradictions in character and actions, so this doesn't prove anything. Yes, a mass murderer can be a vegetarian, even an ethical vegetarian. It's just a thought.


One thing that occurs to me. The Elven ambassador was among the diners at Tarquin's banquet.

Yes, I know it was Z in disguise. But if he was pretending to be a vegetarian elf, he would have declined the invitation.

I deduce, therefore, that not all elves are vegetarian. And Z certainly isn't.
I was thinking about the same thing, yeah. However, we don't know what Z was eating, and it's entirely possible that:

--Z accepted the invitation without considering what would be on the menu, or
--A special vegetarian meal was prepared in advance for Z.

(They didn't prepare a special meal for Malack, but we all know why that wasn't the case.)

By the way, thanks for making this thread. :smallsmile:

[Ellye]

I'm amazed by the fact that, even after reading this comic multiple times throughout almost a decade, there's still some cool little details to be found on it.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Why do you think that?

Because in Fellowship, when the hobbits run into the elves as they leave the Shire, the elven food conspicuously lacks meat (which Samwise complains about). Also, no meat in Rivendell if I remember correctly.

I am apparently mistaken, though.

[137beth]

Tolkien's elves are all vegetarian, I believe.

Well then, it's a good thing that OOTS elves are a new species created by a still-living author, based on creatures of ancient mythology, and are unrelated to the writings of one particular dead modern author:smalltongue:


(They didn't prepare a special meal for Malack, but we all know why that wasn't the case.)
Ooo! Now I can derail on a tangent:smallbiggrin:
They could easily have prepared a special meal for Malack without anyone realizing what it was. He even prepared his own drink and gave some to Durkon.

I'm amazed by the fact that, even after reading this comic multiple times throughout almost a decade, there's still some cool little details to be found on it.
Agreed, that's what I like about this series.

Is there anyway we can use this new-found knowledge to determine V's gender?
No

Most All of what mcdonalds makes is not actually food though.
Fixed for you.

[veti]

Well then, it's a good thing that OOTS elves are a new species created by a still-living author, based on creatures of ancient mythology, and are unrelated to the writings of one particular dead modern author:smalltongue:

More like, they're an interpretation of a race described in game materials that owe an enormous amount to Tolkien. To claim that there's a line of descent going (Ancient Norse or Gaelic folklore -> Rich Burlew), without Tolkien as an intermediate step, is just surreal.

[Surprise!]

Always knew.

[King of Nowhere]

Well, I noticced that he often didn't eat meat when others were, but wasn't keeping track of it.

I find amusing that the person who single-handedly committed genocide on a sentient race is also the same person who won't kill animals for humanitarian concerns.
As others pointed out, it is not without precedent in our world.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I find amusing that the person who single-handedly committed genocide on a sentient race is also the same person who won't kill animals for humanitarian concerns.

That is kind of funny but I think it's relevant to mention there are several reasons besides "humanitarian concerns" for not eating animals, and V's are never stated.

[Acanous]

Well, I noticced that he often didn't eat meat when others were, but wasn't keeping track of it.

I find amusing that the person who single-handedly committed genocide on a sentient race is also the same person who won't kill eat animals for humanitarian dietary concerns.
As others pointed out, it is not without precedent in our world.

Fixed that for you.
V has killed a number of animals in the past. That he won't EAT animals is demonstratably not a moral choice, but a dietary one.

[Ron Miel]

Fixed that for you.
V has killed a number of animals in the past. That he won't EAT animals is demonstratably not a moral choice, but a dietary one.

Not at all. That doesn't follow.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Fixed that for you.
V has killed a number of animals in the past. That he won't EAT animals is demonstratably not a moral choice, but a dietary one.

I don't eat mammals, for neither of those reasons. False dichotomy.

Also please don't use the "fixed that for you" line, besides being overplayed and cliché, it is rude.

[brionl]

I don't eat mammals, for neither of those reasons. False dichotomy.


So, you're suffering from Vegetarian Personality Disorder (http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0345347005)?

[EmperorSarda]

Fixed that for you.
V has killed a number of animals in the past. That he won't EAT animals is demonstratably not a moral choice, but a dietary one.

You know, if you kill an edible non-sentient animal, you might as well eat it. Why let it go to waste?

[Ted The Bug]

Also please don't use the "fixed that for you" line, besides being overplayed and cliché, it is rude.

Please.

Also, these other tiny character details. I want to learn them. Anyone have any other little observations?

[Ron Miel]

Durkon is afraid of heights.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html

[Mammal]

Personal theory is that V is vegetarian to rebel against their outdoorsy, ranger parents who presumably hunted and ate meat.*

Because the ultimate form of passive-aggression is to make a lifestyle change in order to force your parents to cook an additional meal to accommodate you.

*Speaking as someone who did the same thing, for about 48 hours. :smalltongue:

[ORione]

Durkon is afraid of heights.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html

Interesting. That makes his battle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html) against the arboreal scout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html) all the more brave.

[Themrys]

I wouldn't like that to be true.

I don't like the idea that Elves have to be vegetarian because they're a wiser and superior race. Or more often than not, because the author is vegetarian and his ideal race must be to (Paolini).

I don't like the idea of any race being a "superior race" as per author backing.

And I don't like the idea of elves being meat-eaters because the author is a meat-eater and his ideal race must be, too.

And now?

I'm pretty sure Tolkien's elves eat meat. (I think the lack of meat in Rivendell only shows up in the movie) He, presumably, did that, too.
Are we now going to hate Tolkien for making his ideal race like himself?

[warrl]

Wait, why are people implying banana nut muffins are a vegetarian dish? Are meat muffins a popular thing? :smallconfused:

In certain cultures, yes. Humbow, Cornish pasties, potstickers, dim sum, pierogis...

[Chronos]

Pierogis are usually vegetarian.

And I find it quite plausible that vegetarianism might be more common among elves than among humans. But even if they were all vegetarian, that still wouldn't imply a value judgment against vegetarianism, any more than it's a value judgment to say that horses are all vegetarian, or giant pandas.

[Ciabhan]

Pierogis are usually vegetarian.


I dunno what pierogis you've been eating so I'd have to say that's a family/personal recipe/choice.

Most of the one's I've seen are fried in butter or fat and if it's not a mashed potato filling have a filling of minced meat or cheese. Even the potato and spinach filled one's I've had often have bacon in or on them.

Not to mention you need eggs for the dough. I'm not particularly familiar with vegetarianism or derivations thereof but none of that strikes me as avoiding animal products.

I did however know a few people so strict about it that they wouldn't drink filtered water(bottled or otherwise), eat anything with refined sugar, and checked spices and foods for some particular additive all of which use/used animal bone char in some way.

[ORione]

Vegetarianism means no meat, not no animal products. Eggs and dairy products are fair game.

Veganism is the one that doesn't have animal products.

[Dire Lemming]

Vegetarianism means no meat, not no animal products. Eggs and dairy products are fair game.

Veganism is the one that doesn't have animal products.
I know you didn't state or insinuate otherwise, but there are quite a few further denominations and much variation.

I, for instance, consume or utilize nothing that uses resources from animals, with the exception of dairy (and unfortunately wool [for clothing], leather [for belts], and silk [in the past]).

[The Giant]

I dunno what pierogis you've been eating so I'd have to say that's a family/personal recipe/choice.

It is extremely easy to find vegetarian pierogies in the freezer section of your local supermarket. It is also possible, though less easy, to find vegan ones. As is often the case, the "cheaper" brands are less likely to have egg in the dough because egg is expensive.

I know because I literally just had onion pierogies as part of my dinner with my wife (who is a full vegan, complete with the bone char issues that you mentioned).

And yes, there are various levels. Technically, I am an lacto-vegetarian: I don't eat meat or eggs. I still eat dairy, except for that with animal rennet. Practically speaking, though, most of what I eat is vegan, because my wife is a much better cook than I am and I'm not allowed to get cheese on her cookware. :smallredface:

[Ciabhan]

It is extremely easy to find vegetarian pierogies in the freezer section of your local supermarket.

I didn't mean to infer that there were no vegetarian pierogis or they would be hard to come by, just that saying that pierogis were usually vegetarian was a bit off. What's in your dumplings is more of a personal choice than anything.



Practically speaking, though, most of what I eat is vegan, because my wife is a much better cook than I am and I'm not allowed to get cheese on her cookware. :smallredface:

Ha. Makes perfect sense to me. I'm divorced so I do all my own cooking these days. Means the grill and microwave get a lot of work and the variety is lacking.

I buy my produce and hunt my meat honestly. It's healthier overall that way, at least I feel it is. Somewhat less meat in my diet than most and it's leaner and fresher, with a lot less artificial everything.

I grew up too poor to ever turn down any source of food no matter what it was made with so I never really understood the 'moralistic' vegetarianism. By the time I was in a position to be able to pick and choose what I ate I was pretty set in my ways.

I've known a few people who were vegetarian/vegan for those reasons though honestly I've known more who had issues digesting animal protein.

[The Giant]

I grew up too poor to ever turn down any source of food no matter what it was made with so I never really understood the 'moralistic' vegetarianism. By the time I was in a position to be able to pick and choose what I ate I was pretty set in my ways.

I also grew up poor; I didn't become a vegetarian until my 30's. If something matters, it matters, regardless of how "set in your ways" you are before you realize it.

And that's all I'm going to say about that, since discussing morality and ethics are outside the scope of this message board. I won't talk about my reasons for not eating meat, you don't talk about your reasons for eating it. The fact that you hunt means it is highly unlikely that we are going to see eye to eye on the issue anyway.

[Ron Miel]

Giant, just out of interest, do you eat honey?

[137beth]

Giant, just out of interest, do you eat honey?

I've never met anyone who drinks milk but is unwilling to eat honey...

[LokiRagnarok]

I dunno what pierogis you've been eating so I'd have to say that's a family/personal recipe/choice.

Pierogi is technically already plural. And I can with almost full certainty assure you that when you made anything like that in Eastern Europe, you put anything you had in there. I cannot tell much about the Polish pierogi, but for Russian piorzhki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirozhki), I know variations filled with minced meat, mashed potatoes, apple slices (those are the best!!1), curd cheese, eggs, rice and combinations thereof.

I do think the Polish ones are usually not fried, but I don't really know.

[Kazul]

Pierogi is technically already plural.

He's right. Seriously, English, you no have declension? :smalltongue:


I do think the Polish ones are usually not fried, but I don't really know.

Actually, I prefer my Ruthenian dumplings fried, served with simmered onion, but I boil the rest of them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierogi#Poland). That's the matter of personal taste, really.

[F.Harr]

I wouldn't like that to be true.

I don't like the idea that Elves have to be vegetarian because they're a wiser and superior race. Or more often than not, because the author is vegetarian and his ideal race must be to (Paolini).

I don't like the idea of any race being a "superior race" as per author backing.

I can't argue about that. And I would think that long-lived species would be less-than worried about an early death for the purposes of consumption for a very short-lived species, like a chicken. Especially in a world with a varifiable afterlife.



And that's all I'm going to say about that, since discussing morality and ethics are outside the scope of this message board.

Fair enough.

"I'm pretty sure Tolkien's elves eat meat. (I think the lack of meat in Rivendell only shows up in the movie) He, presumably, did that, too."

They certainly hunted.

"Are we now going to hate Tolkien for making his ideal race like himself?"

Nah, let's not hate. And I don't think Tolkien was ever making a point about dietary choices, at least not in a way that interfeared with his stories.

"Guys, guys. Just because one character of a particular race happens to be vegetarian does not mean the entire race is.

"Furthermore, it's not some covert statement by the author about vegetarianism (or other diets).

"It just means that a single character happens to be a vegetarian. Nothing more."

That's fair, too.

"Clearly, the reason Serini was able to convince the rest of the Order of the Scribble to go along with her proposed compromise was because they knew her second offer would be 'I murder you all.' "

That would tend to focus MY mind on the matter at hand.

I would also say that vegitarianism as a way to discombobulate V's parents would be a nice touch, too. I think it's great that these guys have fictional lives beyond the adventures that we get to know about.

[DaggerPen]

... huh. I totally never picked up on V being a vegetarian. Nicely spotted! And it's really good to see more vegetarian characters, too. I feel like you rarely see vegetarian characters, sadly. I can understand not wanting to push a dietary agenda, especially when I often feel like meat-eaters are pressuring me in the exact opposite way, but making a character or two vegetarian isn't exactly pushing an agenda.

Also, I had no idea Rich was a vegetarian. So that's neat. XD

Anyway, I am kind of surprised that V is a vegetarian, considering, since zie never struck me as someone who thought much about those types of issues, but it's not like people can't be complicated, hypocritical, or vegetarian for other reasons (health, religion, etc.) anyway.


I've never met anyone who drinks milk but is unwilling to eat honey...

Actually, you can add me to that list. I am fine with milk as long as it doesn't come from a factory farm, since it's totally possible to get without harming the cow in any way, and since a cow that's being milked is not a cow that's being slaughtered, but I eschew honey because most farms practice "re-queening," which involves killing off and replacing the queen every year, when she could usually live 5 or more years. Most lacto/ovo/lacto-ovo vegetarians like me have no problem with honey, though.

[Chronos]

Anyway, I am kind of surprised that V is a vegetarian, considering, since zie never struck me as someone who thought much about those types of issues, but it's not like people can't be complicated, hypocritical, or vegetarian for other reasons (health, religion, etc.) anyway.
There are plenty of people who are vegetarian who never think much about it-- Sometimes, it's just because their parents were vegetarian, and so that's how they grew up, and now take it for granted.

And maybe I just think of pierogi as vegetarian since I have three vegetarian aunts, and holiday dinners tended to include pierogi as an option for them (and for everyone else who liked them, which was pretty much everyone). But most of the pierogi I see in stores are filled with some combination of potatoes, onions, and cheese, and I don't think I've ever seen any with mince or bacon (though, now that I think of it, bacon pierogi would be really good).

For what it's worth, in my family, we generally boil them and then fry them, with butter and lots of onions.

[Sunken Valley]

I also grew up poor; I didn't become a vegetarian until my 30's. If something matters, it matters, regardless of how "set in your ways" you are before you realize it.

And that's all I'm going to say about that, since discussing morality and ethics are outside the scope of this message board. I won't talk about my reasons for not eating meat, you don't talk about your reasons for eating it. The fact that you hunt means it is highly unlikely that we are going to see eye to eye on the issue anyway.

Was it 2005?

Edit: Is everyone in your family vegetarian? Or do you let them eat some meat as an experience (we both know who I speak of).

[SaintRidley]

I've never met anyone who drinks milk but is unwilling to eat honey...

Hi, nice to meet you.

I just don't like the taste of honey all that much, so I don't eat it outside of what gets mixed into my honey mustard and honey barbecue sauce.

So veggie V, acrophobic Durkon.

I wonder what else.

[137beth]

Hi, nice to meet you.

I just don't like the taste of honey all that much, so I don't eat it outside of what gets mixed into my honey mustard and honey barbecue sauce.

So veggie V, acrophobic Durkon.

I wonder what else.
No, I've met other people who don't like honey. I haven't met anyone who is morally opposed to eating honey, but will eat milk. I'm sure there are people who do that, though:smallwink:

[fwiffo]

Now that V's diet has been beaten to death, what about Durkon's* diet? Does his aversion to trees make him more or less likely to consume tree-based food products?


*I mean the pre-vamped Durkon. I imagine his recent conversion made him add a number of dietary choices (such as Belkar) to his usual selection.

[EmperorSarda]

Now that V's diet has been beaten to death, what about Durkon's* diet Does his aversion to trees make him more or less likely to consume tree-based food products?


I would't see Durkon turning down apple beer or other fruit cocktails.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So veggie V, acrophobic Durkon.

I wonder what else.

According to the DSTP IC foreword, Roy's allergic to shrimp (and possibly shellfish in general; at least most of the people I've met allergic to the first also have problems with the second).

[Chronos]

We've already seen Durkon's reaction to human-brewed beer in general. He'd probably think "apple beer" was an abomination before Thor.

[pearl jam]

We've already seen Durkon's reaction to human-brewed beer in general. He'd probably think "apple beer" was an abomination before Thor.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Mead, a drink popular with real world followers of Thor, I believe, is an alcoholic beverage made from honey, and, at least according to Wikipedia, "can be regarded as the ancestor of all fermented drinks." It's not, perhaps, all that big a leap from honey mead to apple beer. :smallwink:

[Cavenskull]

Maybe yes, maybe no. Mead, a drink popular with real world followers of Thor, I believe, is an alcoholic beverage made from honey, and, at least according to Wikipedia, "can be regarded as the ancestor of all fermented drinks." It's not, perhaps, all that big a leap from honey mead to apple beer. :smallwink:
It's a bigger leap than you might think. Honey just requires some bees in a hive. Apple requires an army of trees, and for a dwarf, that's on a danger level roughly equivalent to starting a velociraptor ranch.

Disclaimer: I'm thinking 'Jurassic Park' velociraptors, not the real-life version.

[Reddish Mage]

It's a bigger leap than you might think. Honey just requires some bees in a hive. Apple requires an army of trees, and for a dwarf, that's on a danger level roughly equivalent to starting a velociraptor ranch.

Disclaimer: I'm thinking 'Jurassic Park' velociraptors, not the real-life version.

What's the difference in danger level between a Jurassic Park velociraptor and a real one?

[rodneyAnonymous]

What's the difference in danger level between a Jurassic Park velociraptor and a real one?

The JP ones were much larger than they really were.

[Cavenskull]

What's the difference in danger level between a Jurassic Park velociraptor and a real one?

rodneyAnonymous already covered it, but if you want to see what I'm talking about, an illustration comparing the size of a velociraptor to a human can be found in the Velociraptor wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velociraptor).

[dtilque]

I don't eat meat or eggs. I still eat dairy, except for that with animal rennet.

It should be noted that there's very little cheese made these days with animal rennet. Something like 90% of cheese is made with Fermentation-produced chymosin (FPC) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennet#Fermentation-produced_chymosin_.28FPC.29). Chymosin is the main enzyme in rennet. FPC is made by microbes that have the gene for chymosin inserted into them. The microbes (bacteria or yeasts) are not added to the milk, but produced by a separate fermentation and then extracted.

So vegetarians generally don't have to worry about cheese. You probably have to hunt down certain specialty cheeses to find some made from animal rennet.

[hamishspence]

The JP ones were much larger than they really were.

There's an interesting bit on this subject in the back of Bob Bakker's Raptor Red novel- the filmmakers were a bit worried that their beasties were oversized even by Deinonychus standards- until Utahraptor was discovered part way through filming.

That said, Utahraptor is a bit larger than the movie animals. Still, a precursor of it could fit neatly into that size class.

[The Giant]

It should be noted that there's very little cheese made these days with animal rennet. Something like 90% of cheese is made with Fermentation-produced chymosin (FPC) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennet#Fermentation-produced_chymosin_.28FPC.29). Chymosin is the main enzyme in rennet. FPC is made by microbes that have the gene for chymosin inserted into them. The microbes (bacteria or yeasts) are not added to the milk, but produced by a separate fermentation and then extracted.

So vegetarians generally don't have to worry about cheese. You probably have to hunt down certain specialty cheeses to find some made from animal rennet.

Yes, I know, but 90% is not 100%. Cheeses with animal rennet can be found in your local supermarket. Some cheese types, such as Pecorino Romano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pecorino_Romano), are only ever made with rennet.

Also, it's incredibly condescending to tell me what I do or do not need to "worry about" in my own diet, as if I haven't spent any time studying the subject.

And this thread has drifted way off topic. If you want to start a thread about general vegetarianism (or velociraptors), do so in Friendly Banter, not here. Locked.