Is Nale Lawful?

[oppyu]

Is there any evidence that Nale is lawful, aside from that 'Evil Opposites' thing?

[Nilehus]

If I remember right, he says he is in one of the earlier strips. Something like "I'm still Lawful Evil, so I'll still kill you for Xykon like I agreed to." or somesuch.

Other than that... he really, really does not act it. To me, he's a great example of (ineffectual) Neutral Evil.

[Codyage]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html

He says it himself.

[Bird]

For everyone's reference, the Giant's wink (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15364378&postcount=36) does suggest he might not be.

[137beth]

Given that this just came up on another thread, I guess I'll repeat what I said there:

Aside from Nale's own words, do we have any proof that he is Lawful? Maybe he is really neutral evil and says he is lawful to fool Elan into buying the evil opposites theme
(yea, he does seem NE to me, though).

I'm pretty sure Tarquin is actually LE. Nale? Not so much.

[ti'esar]

For everyone's reference, the Giant's wink (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15364378&postcount=36) does suggest he might not be.

When combined with the lack of any rationale for how Nale could be LE... I'd say it "suggests" pretty darn strongly.

Maybe he's shifted alignments? At the beginning his goals were less "personal" then they became, even if they were still driven by daddy issues. Now he's just out to destroy Elan and Tarquin, the latter seemingly to a lesser extent.

[Sir_Leorik]

When combined with the lack of any rationale for how Nale could be LE... I'd say it "suggests" pretty darn strongly.

Maybe he's shifted alignments? At the beginning his goals were less "personal" then they became, even if they were still driven by daddy issues. Now he's just out to destroy Elan and Tarquin, the latter seemingly to a lesser extent.

Maybe the more time Nale's spent away from Tarquin's influence, he's grown less Lawful Evil and more Neutral Evil. That could be a result of frustration at being bested by Elan, Sabine's fiendish influence, listening to Thog ramble on about ice cream, puppies and Candy Land, or a combination of all three.

The big thing that differentiates Nale from Tarquin is that Tarquin is willing to delay gratification. Tarquin's just as petty and ego driven as Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html), but he's willing to wait for the right moment to spring his revenge for a petty insult, whereas Nale would not be able to do so. Plus Tarquin has his ego under control to a much greater degree, otherwise he would not be able to have pulled off his grand scheme for a decade and a half.

[Porthos]

STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I know the characters in OotS aren't played by other people. No need to say as much. :smallsmile:

With that out of the way...

Nale could be represenative of the type of person who writes down an alignment on their character sheet but the actual DM has something different written down behind the screen. And the player/character is none-the-wiser until he is smacked with an appropriate spell/whathaveyou.

And it is at that moment he finds out he is in fact not the alignment he professes to be. :smallamused:

To translate this to OotSWorld, Nate could indeed believe he is Lawful Evil. But the Powers That Be (i.e. Rich :smallwink:) know otherwise.

[CRtwenty]

I agree that most of Nale's actions scream Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil more than Lawful Evil. I think this has a lot to do with Sabine, who as a Succubus in love with Nale has a vested interest in making sure he winds up in "her" lower Plane after his death.

After all Haley switched from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Good due to Elan. Wouldn't the evil version of that be Nale switching from Lawful Evil to Chaotic Evil due to Sabine?

[Sir_Leorik]

I agree that most of Nale's actions scream Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil more than Lawful Evil. I think this has a lot to do with Sabine, who as a Succubus in love with Nale has a vested interest in making sure he winds up in "her" lower Plane after his death.

After all Haley switched from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Good due to Elan. Wouldn't the evil version of that be Nale switching from Lawful Evil to Chaotic Evil due to Sabine?

The interesting thing is that Sabine is probably Neutral Evil, not Chaotic Evil. She was originally working for Director Lee of the IFCC, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) and in the author commentary to book four, Rich Burlew described Lee as a "slightly less Lawful Devil".

[CRtwenty]

The interesting thing is that Sabine is probably Neutral Evil, not Chaotic Evil. She was originally working for Director Lee of the IFCC, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) and in the author commentary to book four, Rich Burlew described Lee as a "slightly less Lawful Devil".

True. But the IFCC takes all alignments, just because Sabine's working under a LE fiend doesn't mean that her alignment is affected in any way. Each of the three leaders probably has fiends of all three evil alignments in their ranks. Since she's explicitly stated to be a Succubus (who are CE by default) and we haven't seen any real evidence of her acting contrary to Chaos I'm inclined to believe she's CE and is trying to get Nale to follow her example.

[Gift Jeraff]

He has devil's blood, so he naturally has some Law in him, regardless of his actual alignment. Hence the beard. As a baby, Elan had blood transfusion and the only match was Eladrin blood, so the Chaos and Good from the Eladrin cancelled out the Law and Evil from Elan's heritage. :smallwink:

[thereaper]

Honestly, I'm still trying to figure out why Elan is Chaotic (I know he is. I just can't figure out why).

If I had to guess, Nale's insistence on meticulous and complicated plans might be a factor. Plus, there are some lines that even he won't cross. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html)

[CRtwenty]

Honestly, I'm still trying to figure out why Elan is Chaotic (I know he is. I just can't figure out why).

If I had to guess, Nale's insistence on meticulous and complicated plans might be a factor. Plus, there are some lines that even he won't cross. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html)

Elan is completely willing to defy and subvert authority when he believes it serves the greater good. Most notably his entire prison break plot with Thog was one giant Chaotic romp. As was his attempt to rescue Haley's Dad from Tarquin despite both Roy and Durkon disapproving of it. There's also his failed attempt to throw Kubota in jail despite not having any real evidence to do so. Elan's shown his Chaotic stripes many, many times.

Nale on the other hand hasn't shown much evidence for being Lawful. His actions have tended towards Neutral Evil with a few swings towards Chaotic Evil.

[RMS Oceanic]

I would hazard a guess that Nale is as Lawful as Roy is, maybe slightly less: Both aspire to be Lawful, but Good/Evil takes precedent whenever there is a clash between ethics and morality. I do see an internal code of conduct Nale has going on: Those who slight me must pay, I must make sure everyone knows I have succeeded, stuff like that.

I suspect the lack of evidence could be because compared to the Order, we haven't really seen the Linear Guild act within an external system of order very much. Possibly the best example of them doing so is Nale counting on the laws of Cliffport to prevent anyone discovering the switch. With this in mind, the evidence of lawfulness has to come from character acts, and when you're out in the field you may not have much of a chance to interact with your opponents in a lawful manner.

[Mike Havran]

He acts Neutral Evil. But I think he wants to be Lawful (to be "better" as his father, beat him with his own weapons), or maybe he is delusional about this, among many other things.

[veti]

Among Nale's - quirks, he's obsessive (to the point of monomania) about getting revenge on Elan. Until very recently, he's been equally obsessive about his idiotic 'evil opposites' theme. I think that might qualify him as Lawful Crazy.

As for Elan - he's as chaotic as you can get. He worships a hand puppet, whose powers and mythology he quite literally makes up as he goes along (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html). He blew up Dorukan's Dungeon just because he could. And if you really doubt that he's way more chaotic than Xykon could ever hope to be, just ask yourself: what kind of person comes up with a plan that involves a wooden alpaca full of potato salad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html)?

[Xelbiuj]

There's also his failed attempt to throw Kubota in jail despite not having any real evidence to do so.

I disagree heartily with this point.
He was an eye witness to murder (among other crimes)and was attempting to arrest(not imprison) Kubota and bring him to Hinjo for trial. Assuming there are any citizen arrest laws, self defense laws, or Elan acting as Hinjo's body guard gave him ANY* authority among the Azure fleet, he acted as lawful as it gets. Until V smoked Kubota . . .

[jidasfire]

Nale's lawfulness is less about him following a code or the rules of society and more about his meticulous, methodical nature. Nale plans everything he does down to the smallest detail. Crazy and vicious though he may be, one can hardly say his behavior is random or spur of the moment. In fact, I would say his insanity pushes him to be more this way.

[martianmister]

Nale's lawfulness is less about him following a code or the rules of society and more about his meticulous, methodical nature. Nale plans everything he does down to the smallest detail. Crazy and vicious though he may be, one can hardly say his behavior is random or spur of the moment. In fact, I would say his insanity pushes him to be more this way.

Unlike his CG mother? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)

[Bulldog Psion]

Nale could be represenative of the type of person who writes down an alignment on their character sheet but the actual DM has something different written down behind the screen.

Then again, he could be representative of the fact that people change over time, and since alignment, regardless of the spin put on it by people who hate it, is just a shorthand for someone's moral compass, that can shift, too.

[jidasfire]

Unlike his CG mother? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)

We don't know enough about her to make any real assessment of her character, but having one trait somewhat in common doesn't mean their alignments are the same. Even if her serving plans are complex and silly, the fact that she's CG suggests she's a free spirit at heart. I mean, by your logic, because Elan and Tarquin both love story conventions, they must also be the same alignment.

[Ellye]

I'm sure this isn't the first time this topic came out, by the way, but Nale, for me, is a pretty clear example of Neutral Evil.

I guess someone could argue for him being Chaotic Evil, but I can't see anyway that he would be Lawful Evil. And the mentioned Giant's commentary with a Wink does seem to imply that he, indeed, isn't LE.

[B. Dandelion]

We don't know enough about her to make any real assessment of her character, but having one trait somewhat in common doesn't mean their alignments are the same. Even if her serving plans are complex and silly, the fact that she's CG suggests she's a free spirit at heart. I mean, by your logic, because Elan and Tarquin both love story conventions, they must also be the same alignment.

Nobody actually argued that Nale and his mother should have the same alignment because of their overy-complex plans...

But YOU did argue that Nale's overly-complex plans pointed to him being Lawful, so it was pointed out that his Chaotic mother had the same trait. Arguing here that said plans mean as little to alignment as Elan and Tarquin's mutual genre-savvy would seem to undermine your original point...

[Fish]

Nale and Elan were switched at birth.

There, I said it.

[jidasfire]

Nobody actually argued that Nale and his mother should have the same alignment because of their overy-complex plans...

But YOU did argue that Nale's overly-complex plans pointed to him being Lawful, so it was pointed out that his Chaotic mother had the same trait. Arguing here that said plans mean as little to alignment as Elan and Tarquin's mutual genre-savvy would seem to undermine your original point...

I would say it's not that the plans themselves are complex that makes Nale lawful so much as that he plans everything out. If we can view lawful as ordered, Nale is downright OCD. I would argue the character's lawfulness, which has heretofore been backed by the text itself, is the result of his being the opposite of Elan, who is not a lawbreaker for the most part, but lines spontaneously in the moment, while Nale plans everything in his life down to the tiniest detail.

Also, if the previous person who responded to me wasn't being flippantly sarcastic to my comment, I apologize. Brief, unexplained comments can sometimes come across that way on the internet.

[Shred-Bot]

He acts Neutral Evil. But I think he wants to be Lawful (to be "better" as his father, beat him with his own weapons), or maybe he is delusional about this, among many other things.

Or he could be "lawful" in the way that (for example) people who grew up practicing a religion sometimes self-identify that way even if they've stopped practicing years ago.

Young man, you are lawful because I RAISED YOU THAT WAY!

[NCoffin]

I would say it's not that the plans themselves are complex that makes Nale lawful so much as that he plans everything out.

That still doesn't address the fact that his CG mother also had the planning things out trait.

[SavageWombat]

I think it's pretty clear that, in OotS-verse, one can simultaneously declare oneself to be an alignment, and fail to live up to the standards of that alignment.

Nale thinks himself LE because he thinks he's a brilliant evil schemer. But he doesn't live up to the "lawful" part the way Tarquin does. He's too petty for that.

I'd say he'd get kicked out of the Hells for that, much as Roy almost did in his case, but it seems out of character for the Hells to turn someone away.

[Steward]

Yes, Hell is very lenient.

I think Hell would take anyone who was a bully or a tyrant. Even if your lawful credentials are fuzzy, as long as you can make a reasonable case that you're lawful and evil even just a little, they'll take your soul anyway. Worst case scenario, they melt it down and use it to fuel some evil devil weapon.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

That still doesn't address the fact that his CG mother also had the planning things out trait.

Of course, if her plan was not meticulously put together over the course of an hour or so, but just thrown together 10 minutes before she gave out the instructions, I think that would be a rather chaotic method of planning. It’s not necessarily the plan she enjoys. Could just be the complexity.

You also have to take into account how seriously she takes to sticking to the plan. A chaotic individual can come up with a detailed plan, but would be less likely to be bothered by abandoning it if that suited him or her.

[veti]

Personally, I think that Elan's mother's (don't we have a name for her yet? - blast. I propose we call her Ella) - anyway, her plan was what happens if you say to a hopeless chaotic "OK, you're in charge". She thought she ought to come up with some sort of plan, so she resolved to have fun devising it, if nothing else. She probably didn't give a damn either way whether anyone tried to follow it, or whether they succeeded.

By contrast, Nale expects his plans to be followed to the letter, and puts a lot of thought into their success percentages.

OK, so that's all supposition built on very flimsy evidence, and it assumes their alignments as a starting point, rather than pointing towards them as a conclusion. But that's how I see a CG planner vs an LE one.

[137beth]

Personally, I think that Elan's mother's (don't we have a name for her yet? - blast. I propose we call her Ella) - anyway, her plan was what happens if you say to a hopeless chaotic "OK, you're in charge". She thought she ought to come up with some sort of plan, so she resolved to have fun devising it, if nothing else. She probably didn't give a damn either way whether anyone tried to follow it, or whether they succeeded.

By contrast, Nale expects his plans to be followed to the letter, and puts a lot of thought into their success percentages.

OK, so that's all supposition built on very flimsy evidence, and it assumes their alignments as a starting point, rather than pointing towards them as a conclusion. But that's how I see a CG planner vs an LE one.

That's pretty much what I think, too. "how you plan" is something that isn't necessarily tied to alignment, so you can justify it fitting with whatever alignment you want. Coming up with complex plans is neither chaotic nor lawful. Following them/breaking them can be an alignment factor. We don't really know much else about Elan's Mom's methods, though, so we can't really say.

[SaintRidley]

Yes, Hell is very lenient.

I think Hell would take anyone who was a bully or a tyrant. Even if your lawful credentials are fuzzy, as long as you can make a reasonable case that you're lawful and evil even just a little, they'll take your soul anyway. Worst case scenario, they melt it down and use it to fuel some evil devil weapon.

The Hells are more "letter of the law" over(/including) "(make) the spirit of the law (cry)" anyway. If it's to their advantage to get you, they'll find a way to let (one of their devils drag) you(r soul) in (whether you want to be there or not). Fuzzy credentials just means you get to be some Pit Fiend's pet.

[Fish]

"A complicated plan" does not alignment make. Tarquin plays an elaborate shell game; Nale sets up a complex twin-switching ruse.

If anything, I would say of Nale, he wishes he were Lawful, but he can't get the hang of it, and that's why he's such a disappointment to Tarquin. Nale could not accept the value of Dad's behind-the-scenes domination because he, Nale, is too self-centered. Nale wanted to throw out the whole structure and crown himself dictator. That strikes me as Chaotic more than Lawful.

[Shadowknight12]

A problem with Nale is that he's a force of Chaos wherever he goes. He might use Lawful means, and he might occasionally keep promises, but if we go by the Deva's judgement on Roy (and the recent post made by the Giant regarding Shojo vs. Tarquin), Nale doesn't really have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to Lawfulness. He follows no internal code, follows external codes only when it suits him (and to avoid trouble), creates Chaos wherever he goes and doesn't really go out of his way to keep his word or act in other typical Lawful ways.

I'd call him Neutral Evil as well.

[Reddish Mage]

A problem with Nale is that he's a force of Chaos wherever he goes. He might use Lawful means, and he might occasionally keep promises, but if we go by the Deva's judgement on Roy (and the recent post made by the Giant regarding Shojo vs. Tarquin), Nale doesn't really have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to Lawfulness. He follows no internal code, follows external codes only when it suits him (and to avoid trouble), creates Chaos wherever he goes and doesn't really go out of his way to keep his word or act in other typical Lawful ways.

I'd call him Neutral Evil as well.

You realize, just because Nale appears NE does not mean that his stated alignment is off. It could mean we have not seen enough of that Lawful side of him.

[MReav]

I think Nale might have once been Lawful, but Sabine's influence has corrupted him toward Neutral and maybe even Chaotic. The only thing I think that's Lawful about him are his elaborate plans, and even then, that's no guarantee.

Nale, however, hasn't quite realized it yet, though this story arc might make him realize it, since he's already bucking the Evil Opposites theme.

[Sir_Leorik]

That still doesn't address the fact that his CG mother also had the planning things out trait.

Making plans is not inherently a Lawful trait. The Joker (especially in "The Dark Knight") came up with magnificent plans that required careful, almost split-second timing in order to work (eg. the bank heist at the beginning of the movie) but I don't think anyone here would disagree that the Joker is Chaotic Evil. I think that we are confusing the means and the ends; while the means are important, ulitmately the ends are more important. The Joker made plans in order to terrorize a city and sow chaos; Mommy makes plans so that the waitresses will be able to maximize their ability to respond to thirsty patrons, so that they get served faster and are more likely to leave tips.

[NCoffin]

Making plans is not inherently a Lawful trait.

That's the point I was trying to make. I was refuting what the previous poster had said about the planning Nale does being evidence of a Lawful alignment. Others have since done so more eloquently than I.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'd say rigidly sticking to his traditions was the most Lawful thing about Nale, such as sticking to the Evil Opposites theme or kobold tradition even if the additions to the party are relatively useless, though he now claims to have "broken free" of the former.

[Sir_Leorik]

That's the point I was trying to make. I was refuting what the previous poster had said about the planning Nale does being evidence of a Lawful alignment. Others have since done so more eloquently than I.

Sorry, I didn't realize that. :smallredface:

[NCoffin]

@Sir_Leorik No worries; it's on me for lack of clarity.

Back on topic: I feel that Nale has been gradually shifting from LE towards NE throughout his appearances. How "devoutly" LE he was prior to the beginning of the strip I couldn't say, but his actions have felt less and less Lawful to me since then.

[Snails]

Arguably, Nale's unimpressive grasp of Lawfulness is at the root of his dysfunctional relationship with his father. IMO it is not that they disagree or have overt conflicts that is noteworthy, but the fact they really do not seem to understand each others' goals or points of view.

If not for his bald statement of LEness, it is likely that the consensus opinion would be that Nale is CE. Sabine, Thog, drow elf, husband murdering priestess of Loki -- they scream CE.

Not that it is impossible for the Linear Guild to be LE, but it is certainly not what most people would guess, based on their actual behavior. CE or NE seems like an easy fit, though.

[KillianHawkeye]

If not for his bald statement of LEness, it is likely that the consensus opinion would be that Nale is CE. Sabine, Thog, drow elf, husband murdering priestess of Loki -- they scream CE.

Not that it is impossible for the Linear Guild to be LE, but it is certainly not what most people would guess, based on their actual behavior. CE or NE seems like an easy fit, though.

They don't all have to be the same alignment, you know. :smallwink:

As I recall, the second Linear Guild kobold (the Princess Bride knock-off) actually claimed to be Good-aligned.

[Belkar<3]

I've probably been ninja'd by now, but Nale acts much more like Neutral Evil, but other guys with the same alignment (i.e. Tarquin or Malack) act much more like it. I guess Nale is yet another example of the broken alignment system.

[Burner28]

Arguably, Nale's unimpressive grasp of Lawfulness is at the root of his dysfunctional relationship with his father. IMO it is not that they disagree or have overt conflicts that is noteworthy, but the fact they really do not seem to understand each others' goals or points of view.

If not for his bald statement of LEness, it is likely that the consensus opinion would be that Nale is CE. Sabine, Thog, drow elf, husband murdering priestess of Loki -- they scream CE.

Not that it is impossible for the Linear Guild to be LE, but it is certainly not what most people would guess, based on their actual behavior. CE or NE seems like an easy fit, though.

Nale is definetly not Chaotic. Some might be able to argue he acts more Neutral than Lawful, but definetly not Chaotic.

[MReav]

I've probably been ninja'd by now, but Nale acts much more like Neutral Evil, but other guys with the same alignment (i.e. Tarquin or Malack) act much more like it. I guess Nale is yet another example of the broken alignment system.

Either that, or Nale isn't self-aware enough to realize his failings in the Lawful mindset.

[Porthos]

As I recall, the second Linear Guild kobold (the Princess Bride knock-off) actually claimed to be Good-aligned.

Well, all but said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html). Or rather he said it in flowerly language. But then he claimed the LG were simply a means to an end for him. So I'm not sure you can exactly call him part of the team, proper.

[Snails]

Nale is definetly not Chaotic. Some might be able to argue he acts more Neutral than Lawful, but definetly not Chaotic.

Definitely not Chaotic? Why do you think so?

[Sir_Leorik]

Nale is definetly not Chaotic. Some might be able to argue he acts more Neutral than Lawful, but definetly not Chaotic.

Hmm, the IFCC seem to disagree there:

Destructive unnecessary conflict is pretty much all they do. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)

[KillianHawkeye]

Hmm, the IFCC seem to disagree there:

Destructive unnecessary conflict is pretty much all they do. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)

Destruction and lack of necessity don't actually imply Chaos.... :smallconfused:

[Kornaki]

I just noticed everyone is debating what alignment the LG is... shouldn't it be obvious? :smalltongue:

Anyway, I think this is a relevant comic

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html

"enforcer of an arbitrary civilization" doesn't sound very lawful to me

[Shhalahr Windrider]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html

"enforcer of an arbitrary civilization" doesn't sound very lawful to me

Nale was raised by a man who is the epitome of Lawful Evil and who took it upon himself to create and run some of the most arbitrary civilizations you will ever see. Being Lawful doesn’t mean you can’t recognize certain aspects of your way of life are entirely arbitrary.

[Snails]

Nale was raised by a man who is the epitome of Lawful Evil and who took it upon himself to create and run some of the most arbitrary civilizations you will ever see. Being Lawful doesn’t mean you can’t recognize certain aspects of your way of life are entirely arbitrary.

True. Nonetheless this kind of whining (Nale's) is exactly what we would expect from a Chaotic. It is circumstantial evidence.

Tarquin would never whine about anyone's else arbitrary-but-lawful regime. He would just think "Well played!" and plot how to turn the tables.

(Tarquin does do a lot of whining about how Good people are so pointlessly obsessed over Evil actions being bad, which was a huge hint that some people managed to misinterpret.)

[Reddish Mage]

Making plans is not inherently a Lawful trait. The Joker (especially in "The Dark Knight") came up with magnificent plans that required careful, almost split-second timing in order to work (eg. the bank heist at the beginning of the movie) but I don't think anyone here would disagree that the Joker is Chaotic Evil. I think that we are confusing the means and the ends; while the means are important, ulitmately the ends are more important. The Joker made plans in order to terrorize a city and sow chaos; Mommy makes plans so that the waitresses will be able to maximize their ability to respond to thirsty patrons, so that they get served faster and are more likely to leave tips.

I think making plans is a Lawful trait, it doesn't make someone Lawful however.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

True. Nonetheless this kind of whining (Nale's) is exactly what we would expect from a Chaotic. It is circumstantial evidence.

Tarquin would never whine about anyone's else arbitrary-but-lawful regime. He would just think "Well played!" and plot how to turn the tables

Of course Tarquin can keep his ego in check. And he enjoys these sort of plot developments for their own sake.

Nale, however, is largely defined by his inability to deal with someone else getting their way over him. He would complain about someone else getting to be arbitrary that way.

But then wording it in the insult he did, if done for that reason, would show a greater level of self-awareness than I have come to expect from Nale.

[Snails]

I think making plans is a Lawful trait, it doesn't make someone Lawful however.

I would say that making commitments is a Lawful trait, it doesn't make someone Lawful however.

Nale's plans are just good enough ideas, for him and his team. I would not consider them sufficiently involved to demonstrate commitment.

[Snails]

Nale, however, is largely defined by his inability to deal with someone else getting their way over him. He would complain about someone else getting to be arbitrary that way.

Well, self-control would be a classic Lawful trait, even if it does not prove a non-Chaotic bent.

Tarquin, Kubota, Malack, Durkon habitually demonstrate self-control. Roy: sometimes yes, sometimes less so. Nale? He is not all that different from brother.

[Syncro]

I think Nale values his "internal code" than his "external" I mean, look at the way he conducts things. All his plans are all organized, complex, and convoluted and it's pretty clear he doesn't share his relatives fondess for suprises and does very poorly when one comes up. In other words he has a strict method to get what he wants(or at least try.) Nale also has a desire to be in charge, perhaps he doesn't like other people's laws but he knows he will certainly like his own.

This can be said with Tarquin as well, even though he's more accepting of suprises, it's obvious that he's been planning his own little(or big) plot this whole time. He also values the elements and structures of storytelling and treats them as his own arsenal. He also shows alot of understanding to people's other codes and values, for once taking account to Malacks love for his own children and keeps his promise of sparing Durkon.

That being said, both have a compulsion to be in control of things thus justifying their alignment

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Well, self-control would be a classic Lawful trait, even if it does not prove a non-Chaotic bent.

Self-control is more of a classic Wisdom-based trait, really.

[Trickquestion]

Nale's obsessive commitment to the "Evil Opposites" thing could be considered a personal code, and his obsession with killing Elan is also a goal he's stayed completely dedicated to even though he'd be better off forgetting the Order and doing his own thing somewhere else.

But I do think he's hanging on to his Lawful status by a thread at this point.

[warrl]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html

He says it himself.

I doubt that a Neutral Evil or (even more so) Chaotic Evil character would have a serious problem with claiming to be some other alignment if it seemed convenient, or if it seemed likely to become convenient at some future time.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I doubt that a Neutral Evil or (even more so) Chaotic Evil character would have a serious problem with claiming to be some other alignment if it seemed convenient, or if it seemed likely to become convenient at some future time.

Plus: He said that how long ago? Alignments can and do change. They are, after all, descriptors, not straightjackets.

[LuisDantas]

Have we seen any evidence that he is lawful? I don't think so.

He declares himself to be, but that hardly means anything. Miko declared herself to be the agent of the 12 gods _after_ being rejected by them as well. Similarly, Nale claims to be LE while concluding his elaborated scheme of false pretense and betrayal of the OOtS. Not very Lawful of him.

In my book, he is simply deluded. He has a pechant for self-delusion, as we saw when Tarquin let him believe that he was leading their party.

[martianmister]

Nale's obsessive commitment to the "Evil Opposites" thing could be considered a personal code, and his obsession with killing Elan is also a goal he's stayed completely dedicated to even though he'd be better off forgetting the Order and doing his own thing somewhere else.

Which he dismissed.

[Tragak]

Which he dismissed. Order down to their last spellcaster, Guild only having one non-spellcaster (father of said Order spellcaster)? Yeah, Nale totally outgrew that. :smallwink:

[martianmister]

Order down to their last spellcaster, Guild only having one non-spellcaster (father of said Order spellcaster)? Yeah, Nale totally outgrew that. :smallwink:

Which he never planned. :smallconfused:

[Gift Jeraff]

Arguably, Nale's unimpressive grasp of Lawfulness is at the root of his dysfunctional relationship with his father. IMO it is not that they disagree or have overt conflicts that is noteworthy, but the fact they really do not seem to understand each others' goals or points of view.

If not for his bald statement of LEness, it is likely that the consensus opinion would be that Nale is CE. Sabine, Thog, drow elf, husband murdering priestess of Loki -- they scream CE.

Not that it is impossible for the Linear Guild to be LE, but it is certainly not what most people would guess, based on their actual behavior. CE or NE seems like an easy fit, though.

What screams CE about Zz'dtri? What little we've seen him say/do fits in line with Neutral Evil.

[B. Dandelion]

I had basically seen Nale as little-L lawful and capital-E Evil.

It seems like a number of characters seem to emphasize half of their alignment more than the other half. Maybe this has something to do with the fact that the "corner" alignments (LG, CG, LE, CE) seem to have far more representation in the comic than the "outer middle" alignments (NG, LN, CN, NE). Roy explicitly emphasizes the G-half of his alignment more than the L, to the point the deva evaluating him had no trouble categorizing him as good but nearly sent him over to NG heaven instead.

Belkar I think tends to be capital-C Chaotic and little-E Evil, while Xykon's pretty much the reverse. Belkar's primarily a sort of nonconformist free spirit who also tends to be extremely selfish and amoral -- his identity is Chaotic but his general inclination is towards Evil, yet he'll do Good things on a whim as it suits is Chaotic purposes. While Xykon's primarily a sadist who also tends to be lazy and sort of directionless, yet he'll go against that when it suits is larger Evil purposes.

So I just figured Nale was more about the Evil part of his alignment and the L represented a more general tendency. Though I admit it's a little hard to think of how exactly he's Lawful in tendency, maybe he's not. But he doesn't seem like the only character aligned on two axes who comes off as caring more about one axis than the other, so I hadn't thought much of it before now.

[Math_Mage]

I had basically seen Nale as little-L lawful and capital-E Evil.

It seems like a number of characters seem to emphasize half of their alignment more than the other half. Maybe this has something to do with the fact that the "corner" alignments (LG, CG, LE, CE) seem to have far more representation in the comic than the "outer middle" alignments (NG, LN, CN, NE). Roy explicitly emphasizes the G-half of his alignment more than the L, to the point the deva evaluating him had no trouble categorizing him as good but nearly sent him over to NG heaven instead.

Belkar I think tends to be capital-C Chaotic and little-E Evil, while Xykon's pretty much the reverse. Belkar's primarily a sort of nonconformist free spirit who also tends to be extremely selfish and amoral -- his identity is Chaotic but his general inclination is towards Evil, yet he'll do Good things on a whim as it suits is Chaotic purposes. While Xykon's primarily a sadist who also tends to be lazy and sort of directionless, yet he'll go against that when it suits is larger Evil purposes.

So I just figured Nale was more about the Evil part of his alignment and the L represented a more general tendency. Though I admit it's a little hard to think of how exactly he's Lawful in tendency, maybe he's not. But he doesn't seem like the only character aligned on two axes who comes off as caring more about one axis than the other, so I hadn't thought much of it before now.

Belkar started out pretty capital-E Evil. The developments in his alignment have been very gradual, making him both less Chaotic and less Evil over time. A better example might be 'Chaotic Good-ish' Haley.

[B. Dandelion]

Belkar started out pretty capital-E Evil. The developments in his alignment have been very gradual, making him both less Chaotic and less Evil over time. A better example might be 'Chaotic Good-ish' Haley.

I got some of that impression due to the commentary, actually! Here's a few things the Giant had to say about Belkar, waaaay back in No Cure for the Paladin Blues:


[T]here was an odd swell of fans who thought that the Miko vs. Belkar battle would (or should) end with Belkar's death. I guess they figured that good should triumph over evil, even if it's arrogant self-righteous good versus selfish casual evil. I mean, Belkar's not committed to Evil as a force in any particular way, he's simply completely amoral, doing whatever he wants when he wants it.


None of which means that this strip is about Evil triumphing over Good. [...] If Belkar was actively plotting genocide, there's no doubt Roy would let Miko execute him. [...] Belkar's evil is that of glee at another's pain, not crushing the world with an unstoppable demonic horde. He'd actually rather fight the demonic horde, because that would be more fun for him than sitting back and watching them tear everything up.

Versus what is said about Nale/Xykon in the next book:


Nale is a different sort of villain than Xykon, even though both are openly Evil For Evil's Sake (as opposed to Redcloak, who believes he's doing what's best for his people).

Granted, the contrast there is explicitly to Redcloak (who I would figure for capital-L Lawful), but when Nale and Xykon are said to be "Evil For Evil's Sake" while Belkar is "not committed to evil as a force in any particular way", it's suggestive. Also Belkar's entire epiphany was at the hands of a noted Chaotic Good character in a strip called "the Philosophy of Chaos" and so on. So his commitment to Evil is downplayed while his connection to Chaos is emphasized.