[PF] The Playground Optimized the Witch

[fluke1993]

Evening all.


I am currently playing an Oracle in a PF game. I am enjoying the Oracle and while I will probably play one again in the future, I don't foresee this character lasting to much longer (I focused to hard on mind affecting spells and monster immunes are starting to shut me down really hard) this combined with poor spell choice and a distinct lack of magical items that would be good for my character mean that I would like to plan a Witch.

Since the DM leans towards the physical side of magic items (the only non physical items we've gotten are utility and the only one that wasn't was an is basically an artifact) I want to go with a character that doesn't rely on WBL so much hence prepared caster. I realize that the wizard does pretty much everything the witch does only better but that's kinda why I want to play a witch.

The character needs to keep some sort of healing around so I'm planning on taking the two Witch cure hexes or the Hedgewitch Archetype (for cleric style spontaneous heals).

While I want my witch to be able to provide some healing, I don't want this to be the focus of the build, I am thinking of taking either the Trickster or Time patrons.

I am not used to building casters (especially in PF) and as such I need some help with feat and spell selection (at least for spells my familiar knows initially) and as such I have come to you asking for help.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You did poorly because you focused too heavily on mind-affecting spells and thus you want to try a Witch? Have you seen their spell list and offensive hexes? :smalltongue:

[fluke1993]

While the witch has plenty of mind affecting spell (seems to be a specialty) I have no problem with that. The problem with my current oracle is that my current spell choice is ONLY mind affecting spells and shatter. That and the oracle is the worst characters(not the class itself mind) I've ever rolled.

[edit] Also while it's true early combat hexes are almost all mind affecting the most powerful ones (like dire prophesy and Icy tomb are not)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, if the Samsaran with Mystic Past Life is available, it's by far and away the best racial choice as a witch, since it lets you expand your extremely narrow spell list. I have my unfinished (and now outdated! like, the Samsaran thing) hand book (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=480.0), if it helps. You have a good idea on patrons. I would not recommend the Hedge Witch, it's a very poor archetype.

Another race that's become much better since I wrote the hand book is (Half-) Orc, or anyone with Human blood who can take Racial Heritage feat to count as an orc. Scarred Witch Doctor makes everything run off of Con, which is pretty nice. But you still have d6 HD and poor BAB and no business in melee, so I don't think it's actually that useful in the end, unless your DM is especially viscous about head-hunting for the mage/healer.

[fluke1993]

I have read the scarred doctor and while it looks interesting I really don't like it thematically. What's this thing about Samsarans?

Now that I think about why Hedgewitch is bad I understand, didn't initially realize that even with it MCLW is still a 6th level spell.

Also need to read skill lists more often, didn't realize UMD was an option and that Witch gets several (arbitrarily high leveled) cure spells. Wands of Cleric CMW here I come.

Aside from craft wand what else would be a good idea as far as feats go?
I like meta magic quite a bit but most of the spells I would be casting don't maximize or empower well. Maybe extend spell and enlarge spell?

[Edit] Stupid question, why is it that Improved familiars can UMD and regular ones can't?

[avr]

The samsaran thing is about stealing a few spells from other lists of the same kind (arcane or divine). It works like this:

The following alternate racial traits may be selected in place of one or more of the standard racial traits above. Consult your GM before selecting any of these new options.

Mystic Past Life (Su) You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past.

Note the ask your GM first bit.

What initial level are you looking at for the witch? If it's replacing an existing character I assume it's not 1st.

For spells, ear-piercing scream is a useful 1st level attack spell, blood money is handy to have, and you should probably get mage armor.

There are many cool 2nd level witch spells; besides the old favorites like alter self and blindness, frost fall is a spell which metamagics nicely with Rime spell or Dazing spell, symbol of mirroring can be weirdly useful (note that it does not impede targeted or area spells, meaning most of what you do), or there's soothing word if you need to negate conditions.

3rd level spells include stinking cloud and loathsome veil, ray of exhaustion, and for non-combat applications look up seek thoughts.

[avr]

Re UMD, I assume this relates to having hands to use magic items with.

[Psyren]

Witches also make decent summoners; you can drop a monster and then buff it up on subsequent rounds with hexes like Fortune and Ward, because the summons get around the 1/24hr limit on those hexes. You also won't have to use them on your party members until the hardest encounter of the day. You can even heal your summons via hexes if you have nothing better to do in a fight (and/or are saving your magic for later encounters.) Bonus points if you use a patron like Deception to do all this from hiding.

[Gnaeus]

I realize that the wizard does pretty much everything the witch does only better but that's kinda why I want to play a witch.

The character needs to keep some sort of healing around so I'm planning on taking the two Witch cure hexes or the Hedgewitch Archetype (for cleric style spontaneous heals).

Being a healer is not by itself bad. The Hedgewitch Archetype is terrible, and should really never be taken by anyone unless they are intentionally trying to make a weaker character. The cure hexes aren't very good either (but are still better than Hedgewitch)

My recommendation. If you want to be a healer, learn the relevant cure spell at every level. Memorize one or two cures of whatever your highest level is. Get Craft Wands at level 5, and craft a wand of CLW the very next day. In combat healing is very rarely your best option, and keeping a couple of high powered cures on hand should cover those times. The wand of CLW is a cheaper alternative for out of combat healing. Then, you can save all those yummy hexes for things that will actually help you win fights.


Aside from craft wand what else would be a good idea as far as feats go?
I like meta magic quite a bit but most of the spells I would be casting don't maximize or empower well. Maybe extend spell and enlarge spell?


Level 1 Hex: Slumber
Level 1 feat: Extra Hex: Misfortune
Human feat: Extra Hex Cackle (or bump everything else back 2 levels if samsaran)
Level 2 Hex: Evil Eye
Level 3 Feat: Accursed Hex
Level 5 Feat: Craft Wands
Level 7 Feat: Improved Familiar
Level 11 Feat: Split Hex.

[Psyren]

I don't get the hate for Hedge Witch. I agree that most witches have better things to do than heal in a fight, but a timely cure can still be the difference between life and death if someone in the party has bad luck. Also, the ability to dump unused spell slots into curing at the end of a day saves you a lot of resources in the long run, and not all groups have a cleric or oracle to do anything similar. Non-divine healers are rare, and non-divine healers capable of being primary spellcasters are rarer still; I'm an especially big fan of any class or archetype that can be an effective healer for a neutral or evil party, or one that lets a class that may not always have something to do (like a controller) contribute in other ways.

Giving up a single hex for spontaneous healing is totally worth it for me, especially since you even get the Mass versions of the various cure spells for free that way. Most witches prepare at least one cure spell of each level, and this archetype lets them free up all of those slots for more utility or offense. Mass Cure Serious Wounds can be a great spell to have prepared, but being able to drop it in exchange for an extra Maze, Irresistible Dance or SMVIII is better still.

[Gnaeus]

2 problems with that Psyren.
1. Hedge witch doesn't give up 1 hex, it gives up 2. At level 4 and 8. And Empathic healing is awful.

2. An offensive hex can be used in every single battle, all day long. Twice on every enemy once you have Accursed Hex. Even the buffing hexes, like fortune, are likely to be equal to 3-4 spells per day. So if the witch memorizes 3 cure spells, taking them out of his daily lineup, and picks up 2 hexes which he can use in every battle, that is a straight up win for the witch. There is never going to be a time when that is a good trade. Even if the witch was memorizing 6-8 cure spells per day, they would STILL be better taking 2 extra hexes than hedge witch. Hexes are the bread and butter of the witch.They are the reason that you would play a witch instead of a wizard.

And remember, out of combat healing is super cheap with a wand.

[Psyren]

Healing is another reason to play Witch over Wizard - because some parties only have 3-4 members and nobody wants to be the cleric or bard. It does happen.

As for hexes, I agree that they are the main reason to play Witch, but the sad fact is that the majority of hexes suck ass. My only must-picks are Slumber, Evil Eye, Cackle and maybe Misfortune - the others are either situational at best, intended for NPCs, or just plain weak. So even losing two of them I can still get all of the good ones and have a lot of party utility left over from the improved healing abilities and (effective) bonus slots.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Just remember to laugh all the time. By which I mean to make liberal use of cackle with your favorite buff/debuff hex.

[Gnaeus]

You definitely want misfortune. It isn't mind affecting, so it is your go to for busting golems and the like. I would say it is more important than evil eye, although you want both.

Healing is crummy, but still better to take the healing hex than hedge witch. It is strictly better to have heal spells on tap AND your full spells than to have to burn spells for heals.

Alternately, Charm is very decent, although situational. Flight is not necessary, but good to have, certainly worth a couple of 3rd level slots per day or more. Fortune (coupled with cackle) is a very solid damage buff, and against enemies with breath weapons or other saves is likely to prevent more damage than a cure will heal. Heck, even cauldron is better than Hedge witch, since you could make potions of healing to help if needed, but you could also do other things.

[Arbane]

(I focused to hard on mind affecting spells and monster immunes are starting to shut me down really hard)

As people have pointed out, witches will be EVEN WORSE for this. Seems like every single non-mook enemy my witch faces is either completely immune to mind-effects or is a dragon. I bitterly regret not having worked toward Threnodic Spell after the first time the damn vampires started showing up....

What level will you be starting at? What sort of enemies does the GM like using?

The good low-level hexes have already been mentioned: Misfortune, Fortune, Cackle, Evil Eye, Slumber, plus maybe Healing, Flight, Prehensile Hair, and Disguise. Ward's nice at low levels, but when everyone has resistance/deflection bonuses, it loses a lot of power (my character just leaves it on her familiar these days).

With the new Retraining rules, taking Healing or Ward becomes a potentially better idea - you can swap them for something else later. Make sure the GM will allow it, though....

Anyway, good spells by level. Here's some I've gotten mileage out of:

0:
Light
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Message

1:
Ear-Piercing Scream
Identify
Unseen Servant
Mage Armor
Enlarge Person
Obscuring Mist

2:
Vomit Swarm (Gross, but hilarious and immensely effective. Except against undead, LIKE EVERY OTHER TRICK I HAVE. :smallfurious: )
Web
Locate Object
Glitterdust
False Life (For the familiar)

3:
Bestow Curse (A million household uses! And they're all HORRIBLE! :smallbiggrin: )
Vampiric Touch
Speak With Dead (also know as "Diplomacy for Necromancers")
Summon Monster III (Dretches and Lantern Archons are immensely useful.)
Lightning Bolt (because sometimes, you just have to get blasty.)

4:
Black Tentacles
Secure Shelter
Dimension Door

You will notice a distinct lack of mine-affecting spells on this list. That's because EVERYTHING WE FIGHT IS MINDPROOF WHARRGARBL no i'm not bitter at all.

My immense frustration aside, Witches can be a lot of fun, you just need to get creative. They definitely need to rely on their teammates more than wizards do, whether that's a plus or a minus is up to you.

PS:

Alternately, Charm is very decent, although situational.

How do you use it? From what I've seen, the woefully short duration makes it look pretty bad to me.

[graymachine]

Just a few things that have been partially mentioned:

1. Cackle is stupid-good. Take Cackle, lean on it every chance you get.

2. The Extra Hex feat is the litmus test for feats you are thinking about taking; if the feat isn't better than Extra Hex, you shouldn't take it. Extra Hex is that good.

[Gnaeus]

How do you use it? From what I've seen, the woefully short duration makes it look pretty bad to me.

Lets say you have a level 8 witch (because honestly, 8 is where you are most likely to take this hex) with a 22 int. That means it improves the attitude by 2 steps. It lasts 6 rounds.

So, it improves from hostile to indifferent. It has no penalty against working in combat, so against any animal or humanoid, it effectively removes them from combat for 6 rounds. During that time, you could buff yourselves or your allies, remove other enemies from combat, or just run away. So its kind of like slumber, except you can't Coup de Grace them, and their buddies can't wake them up.

The only reason I don't rate it higher than "decent" is because of the animal or humanoid limitation. If you know you are going to be in a mostly humanoid campaign, it is quite solid.

If the target is at least indifferent, you can then use diplomacy to request things. While it takes a minute to influence attitude with diplomacy, it only takes a round to make a request. So, If you have a party face with max diplomacy and decent charisma, you could walk into a room with an enemy caster, Charm them, and then have your buddy ask them to buff you.

If you can get your int to 30 (not unusual for a high level witch), you could charm a target, then sic your diplomancer on them to influence their attitude before the charm wears off.

If you capture an enemy, you could make them indifferent to you before you ask them some key question. To get someone Indifferent to you to reveal secret information is a DC of 15 (indifferent) +10 (secret info) + their Cha. A good diplomancer can manage that pretty easily. Imagine if Darth Vader walks on board the ship, looks at Leia for 6 seconds, and then asks "Princess, please tell me the location of the hidden rebel base" and she looks confused for a second and responds "Yavin". And then 24 seconds later she reconsiders her foolish action, which just gives her something to think about on the way to her execution.