Warlock and reserve feats

[Grayson01]

As a DM would you allow Warlock take and use reserve feats. Warlock invocations have effective spell levels would as a DM allow reserve feats to be used with applicable invocations. My thinking is yes, because the sudden Metamagic feats can be used with invocations because they do not alter the spell level of the spell. Reserve feats do not ether and they each have an effective spell level so I would allow there uses. What are your arguments for allowing it or not?

[Amnestic]

I'm fairly certain that it's not kosher RAW (or even RAI), but I doubt it'd imbalance anything. Warlocks could likely do with a little boost and reserve feats might be just the thing to help them out.

[AmberVael]

It isn't RAW. Warlocks can't qualify for them or use them by the rules as is, because they don't cast spells.

However, I'd be entirely fine with allowing it. Indeed, I think it'd be pretty fun to strip out the "you must cast spells and have an appropriate spell in reserve" part of the feats entirely, and just have them be scaling feats that grant supernatural abilities to anyone who feels like taking them. I really don't see it breaking anything.

[Grayson01]

Thanks I was just reading page 72 of CA and it is counter to the rules. It was a good idea but sadly breaks the rules. I guess they thought of it already.

[Amnestic]

It isn't RAW. Warlocks can't qualify for them or use them by the rules as is, because they don't cast spells.

However, I'd be entirely fine with allowing it. Indeed, I think it'd be pretty fun to strip out the "you must cast spells and have an appropriate spell in reserve" part of the feats entirely, and just have them be scaling feats that grant supernatural abilities to anyone who feels like taking them. I really don't see it breaking anything.

But then mundanes would take them and they would have nice things too! :smallannoyed:

[Fates]

But then mundanes would take them and they would have nice things too! :smallannoyed:

I believe WotC's thinking dictates that mundanes, by virtue of being mundane, can't just take a feat to gain flashy magical doodads (besides those few cantrip feats in C-Arc). I think their reasoning actually makes some degree of sense, but I'd still allow it in a high magic campaign. Not arguing with the point that Mundanes should get nice things; I'm just of the opinion that giving them blatantly magical powers would break the spirit of playing a mundane character, for myself and most players I know in real life, anyway.

[Amnestic]

I believe WotC's thinking dictates that mundanes, by virtue of being mundane, can't just take a feat to gain flashy magical doodads (besides those few cantrip feats in C-Arc). I think their reasoning actually makes some degree of sense, but I'd still allow it in a high magic campaign. Not arguing with the point that Mundanes should get nice things; I'm just of the opinion that giving them blatantly magical powers would break the spirit of playing a mundane character, for myself and most players I know in real life, anyway.

I don't disagree that pure mundane should be possible and viable (see: Warblade :smalltongue:), but the option and potential to take these reserve feats should be there if they want to take them. It's not like it'd be forced as a class feature on rogues/fighters or anything, it'd be optional. I'm pretty sure the Fey/Fiendish heritage feats can already do this.

[Telonius]

I'd allow it. You're getting what's basically another Invocation, and Extra Invocation is a thing.

For anything related to the "highest level spell available," take the second-highest level of Invocation you know, then find the highest spell level-equivalent.

[BowStreetRunner]

Thanks I was just reading page 72 of CA and it is counter to the rules. It was a good idea but sadly breaks the rules. I guess they thought of it already.

Actually, the relevant rule is on CM page 37. "Only actual spells or spell slots allow the character to use the primary benefit of a reserve feat. Spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and extraordinary abilities—even if they mimic or duplicate an appropriate spell—do not qualify."

[Tulya]

As said, they don't strictly qualify under the rules-as-written, but I don't see a particular thematic or balance reason to disallow it. The vast majority of reserve feats either produce effects you can already perform at-will as a Warlock, are simply terrible, especially since you already have an assortment of at-will abilities competing for the same opportunity cost, or both.

If you chose to allow it, the main reserve feat optimization-wise I'd recommend looking at is Minor Shapeshift. Dragonfire Adepts burn a Greater invocation known for a worse effect, Draconic Toughness. Warlock would need to spend a feat and a Greater invocation known on Hellspawned Grace or a Dark invocation known on Word of Changing, which are both generally poor. (Are there any other invocations classed as polymorph effects?)

[Chronos]

The summon elemental one might be useful, too.

Personally, though, my preference would be to not allow reserve feats for anyone, including standard spellcasters. One of the few limitations spellcasters have is that they can, given a long enough adventuring day, eventually run out of power, and I think it's just absurd to take that limitation away.

[Amnestic]

If you chose to allow it, the main reserve feat optimization-wise I'd recommend looking at is Minor Shapeshift. Dragonfire Adepts burn a Greater invocation known for a worse effect, Draconic Toughness. Warlock would need to spend a feat and a Greater invocation known on Hellspawned Grace or a Dark invocation known on Word of Changing, which are both generally poor. (Are there any other invocations classed as polymorph effects?)

Dragonfire Adepts get Humanoid Shape as a Lesser Invocation which emulates Change Shape for humanoid-types. Closest I can think of.

[Tulya]

The summon elemental one might be useful, too.

Ah, right. The Warlock has summoning invocations, but they're all swarms you can't direct.

[Jack_Simth]

Personally, though, my preference would be to not allow reserve feats for anyone, including standard spellcasters. One of the few limitations spellcasters have is that they can, given a long enough adventuring day, eventually run out of power, and I think it's just absurd to take that limitation away.
...

Suppose a high-level Fighter picks up:
1) A Decanter of Endless Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#decanterofEndlessWater)
2) A Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bowlofCommandingWaterElementals)
3) A Ring of Telekinesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#telekinesis)
4) A donkey and cart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#mountsAndRelatedGear)
5) A lot of Colossal Sianghams (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#siangham) (I'd use Arrows, but we want them reusable)
6) A Vampiric weapon (+2 equivalent item property, Magic Item Compendium).
7) Speak Language (Aquan)
8) (Optional, but useful): Exotic Weapon Proficiency, (Greater) Weapon Focus, (Greater) Weapon Specialization (Siangham)

The Fighter can now:
1) Throw nine instances of 3d8 damage as an at-will standard action (launch Sianghams from cart via Ring of Telekenisis). All day.
2) Summon Huge Water Elementals, all day (but only one at a time - use Decanter to put salt water in the bowl, activate bowl)
3) Heal HP damage out of battle all day (Summon Water Elemental as above, order it to not fight back, beat it with the vampiric weapon)

... oh yes, which means he can also fight all day long.

Reserve feats give a wizard pale copies of these. Only one aspect (the at-will healing from the Vampiric weapon) is non-Core.

The game is designed for specialists, and as commonly played encourages being able to blast over the extended endurance that you get from the Reserve Feats.

I'm afraid I really don't see it as broken, myself.

[Chronos]

Let me clarify: Giving all-day-long options to characters isn't necessarily a bad idea. Giving all-day-long options to the specific characters that are already broken-overpowered in so many ways, that's what is a bad idea.

[Phelix-Mu]

Let me clarify: Giving all-day-long options to characters isn't necessarily a bad idea. Giving all-day-long options to the specific characters that are already broken-overpowered in so many ways, that's what is a bad idea.

So, here is the thing.

I felt warlocks are massively overpowered when I first encountered the class as played by one of my CN friends that likes to blow stuff up. It seemed like an anarchist's wet dream; accurate ranged damage until you're blue in the face, and at will invocations for utility, mobility, and extra deadliness. Yikes, I thought.

A few more years of DMing under my belt, and I'm realizing that, while a well-played warlock is scary, any well-played full caster is scarier still.

In short, all-day blasty is bad for setting-scale balance (which is already threatened just as much by tier 1 casters), but encounter-scale warlock minus extensive glaivelocking and hellfiring is sub-par in terms of lethality. Reserve feats are basically just more blast essence invocations, and add a bit of utility to what is otherwised a somewhat constrained class (due to the small list of invocations and their single-minded thematics...darn you fiendish fluff:smallannoyed:).

[Chronos]

Giving reserve feats to warlocks isn't overpowered, though it'd probably be cleaner to implement them as invocations (which the warlock could take using the Extra Invocation feat, if desired). What I'm saying is that I don't like the reserve feat mechanic to begin with, since it (by design) gives more options to spellcasters, who really don't need the help.

[Phelix-Mu]

Giving reserve feats to warlocks isn't overpowered, though it'd probably be cleaner to implement them as invocations (which the warlock could take using the Extra Invocation feat, if desired). What I'm saying is that I don't like the reserve feat mechanic to begin with, since it (by design) gives more options to spellcasters, who really don't need the help.

I pretty much agree with this, especially with the cheese that emerges at higher levels, past epic, and Advanced Dragons (pre-errata) and Improved Spell Capacity. Yay, 20th level spells and Arcane Preparation, now SR-proof damage until you're blue in the face!

What they should have done to patch up the "My wizard is out of spells *sadface*" is something more along the lines of infinite cantrips or something. The only vaguely balanced thing about Reserve Feats is that they deny use of high-level spell slots or rapidly decrease in damage potential as the caster uses up their real spells. Still, so many spells at high level that this rarely is a problem unless the DM is really marathoning the encounters back-to-back (MY FAVORITE TACTIC).