PF Cavalier/Samurai any good?

[Yora]

I am intrigued by the idea, but looking at the abilities for the first 7 levels (where most of the action takes place in my games) there doesn't seem to be much usefull stuff.
The samurai even seems a bit better than the regular Cavalier, with Weapon Expertise and Mounted Archery replacing Cavalier Charge and Expert Trainer. And Resolve seems a lot more practical than Tactician. Is it worth to try to getting the class really figured out, or is it just lackluster?

[stack]

I believe the general opinion is that they are lackluster. They don't even get love on the paizo forums, from what I've seen. However, in an E6 game I ran the cavalier did plenty of damage since it was mostly outside and his horse rolled VERY well consistently. In an outdoors campaign they can be perfectly respectable, dungeon/indoors, they are gimped fighters unless you are small (or take the archetype that gives a hound instead of a mount, huntmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/huntmaster)).

I've play one in a no-magic classes game. He hits hard as a two-handed weapon user, but doesn't do much else outside of combat (aside from his wolves having scent).

[Man on Fire]

I like Cvalier because of how he's nonmagical buffer in the party, so he can do more than a tank. Pick up good Order and you can be quite useful. Say order of the staff, your casters are probably gonna like this one very much.

[Heian]

Well, In my exp. Samurai is strictly better than Cavalier, as long as huge plains or small characters aren't concerned. Anyway a Cavalier is Awesome to play as a martial buffer and an useful DM tool to improve city watches and combat patrols.

[Yora]

I like Cvalier because of how he's nonmagical buffer in the party, so he can do more than a tank.
How exactly? The only thing I see is sharing the Teamwork feats, which probably is the only reason anyone would ever take a teamwork feat at all.

[Keneth]

In a word: No. They serve their purpose as NPCs, but they offer nothing of worth to a player character. There are ways of fixing the class, but personally I've never bothered.

[Axinian]

The main way to spice them up a little bit is a bard multiclass into Battle Herald. Spells help, and you can get some really good buffing action going.

[Squirrel_Dude]

They use mounted combat, which is just as confusing and often worthless in Pathfinder as it was in previous editions. I'm also not a fan of teamwork feats. they provide small bonuses for what is essentially forcing someone else to take the feats, too. So yeah, the best thing I can recommend for playing them would be to either get rid of the mount or get rid of the teamwork feats. Both if you can manage it.

Personal favorites are
- Musketeer + Luring Cavalier
- Standard Bearer 4 + Bard 1 into Battle Herald
- Gendarme + Beast Rider (If you want to do mounted combat, be the best at it)

As other have said, Battle Herald is an interesting way to spice it up. It's not a great prestige class, but it's certainly not terrible. You at least get some decent abilities to be buffing the party with.

[grarrrg]

Cavaliers can be sweet for 4 levels to grab Expert Trainer class feature into the Horse Master feat.
Horse Master treats your Character level as your Druid level for your Cavalier Mount.

4 levels is on the 'expensive' end of dipping, but a FULL progression mount? Yes please!

[StreamOfTheSky]

I find them less interesting than the Fighter class. And that's quite a statement.

The class is based around lance charge, which is certainly effective. But boring as mud. The order abilities are pretty underwhelming and hardly anything you could build a character around. The tactician thing could have been good if there were more than just a tiny few good in-combat teamwork feats (the best one, Lookout, is something you'd want out of / pre- combat) and the way it worked wasn't so flipping stupid. To get the absolute best combat teamwork feat (Coordinated Charge) and actually SHARE it, without having to wait a ton more levels, you're basically required to dip a full BAB class 1 level to "time it right." Because until very high levels, only the teamwork feats you got at the specific class levels can be shared; not others you picked up.

I think Samurai is an even weaker class (I'd actually say Cav is more boring than outright weak, though it's certainly not high on the totem pole there, either), it's so much less focused. Mounted Archery is a worthless feat; you can shoot and move just fine w/o it. The charge stuff, while dull, is the strongest part of the class, so losing that also hurts. While Expert Trainer sucks, it's required for Horse Master, which allows you to ditch after Cav 4 for a better class, never look back, and retain full mount progression the entire time. Resolve seems very underwhelming, too. And Samurai's capstone is completely, laughably worthless - the chosen foe just avoids you while his mooks whittle your hp down, then he magic missiles you or something. I think calling upon it actually nerfs you! On the other hand, Cav's capstone is again dull, but POWERFUL.

[Yora]

Yeah, I got a similar impression when I went through it a couple more times.

I think I just put it right back where I found it. And leave it there.

[Scowling Dragon]

In my mind, a fighter can replicate everything a Cavalier can. EVERYTHING.

[Bhaakon]

In my mind, a fighter can replicate everything a Cavalier can. EVERYTHING.

You've found a way to tack full mount progression on a fighter, then? I suppose dipping cavalier for horse master, but then you're not really a fighter anymore.

[Scowling Dragon]

Leadership feat. Or just ask the GM for a mount that can be advanced.

[Man on Fire]

How exactly? The only thing I see is sharing the Teamwork feats, which probably is the only reason anyone would ever take a teamwork feat at all.

Orders can give you abilities that additionally support rest of the party. For example Order of the Staff makes you wizard cheerleader.

[Squirrel_Dude]

At first I was going to seriously critique the response, but then I thought harder and...


Leadership feat. Or just ask the GM for a mount that can be advanced.LOLWUT




Orders can give you abilities that additionally support rest of the party. For example Order of the Staff makes you wizard cheerleader.To be fair, that's not the most hilarious/humiliating/emasculating power a mundane character can get. Monks get the ability to kill themselves they are wiped form existence.

[Scowling Dragon]

Why not? Well depends on the GM I guess. But I wouldn't see an issue with that.

Or getting new mounts occasionally and dumping the worse one.

[King Ri-Ri]

You could always be a paladin/anti-paladin. I know people don't like the alignment restriction but you don't have to play it lawful/chaotic stupid. You can just base you personality off of your deity. Why follow crazy Iomede when Shelyn also has her own paladins that try to protect beauty? Paladins can cast magic and have a mount. Hell, you can even be party healer and save the cleric some spell slots.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, if anything is the Cavalier replacement, it's a Paladin, possibly with 3E UA style variant alignment options so you don't have to be lawful stupid just to be a leader-ish mounted dude.

[grarrrg]

Leadership feat. Or just ask the GM for a mount that can be advanced.


Why not? Well depends on the GM I guess. But I wouldn't see an issue with that.

Or getting new mounts occasionally and dumping the worse one.

I just...I don't...

:smallsigh:

If you're resorting to those types of shenanigans, then why not be a Cavalier and have TWO of whatever?
Your "solutions" are not really solving the "Fighter doesn't have a mount" problem, because they can apply to ANY character.

[Scowling Dragon]

If you're resorting to those types of shenanigans, then why not be a Cavalier and have TWO of whatever?

Thats an AWESOME Idea:

I can have a horse: And have THAT horse ride on ANOTHER horse.

Man, you are BRILLIANT. You deserve a nobel prize!

[Squirrel_Dude]

Thats an AWESOME Idea:

I can have a horse: And have THAT horse ride on ANOTHER horse.

Man, you are BRILLIANT. You deserve a nobel prize!Or he could get another cavalier for his cohort. That way he'd have a 2 horses, and another person to ride the other one.

Or am I missing something where the point of leadership isn't to get another character.

[Scowling Dragon]

Im just goofing around. The very minimum you can have the Wizard craft you a mount.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I want a canon golem!

[Scowling Dragon]

I want a canon golem!

With you as the cannonball. Brilliant.

[Khosan]

I want a canon golem!

"What's the canon golem say?"

"*CATGIRL ROMANCE NOVELS EXIST*"

"Well, can't say no. It's canon."

[graymachine]

The Gamers' Guide to Pathfinder, found here (http://thegamersguidetopathfinder.wordpress.com/), has a podcast that goes over the Cavalier and Samurai pretty decently; listen to it on you commute or something.

[Killer Angel]

If you ever want to try to play a mounted charger, Cavalier is effectively good, but sadly, many goodies come at lev. 8, so if you level cap is 7, I would suggest to try something else.


I find them less interesting than the Fighter class. And that's quite a statement.
The class is based around lance charge, which is certainly effective. But boring as mud.

I'm currently going to play one in a short campaign, just to give it a try, and i picked a gnome (medium mount to go almost everywhere). Then I've improved the animal handling part, and so I'll wander around with my self-made cohort of trained beasts i can speak with. We'll see if it's worth something.

[Spuddles]

The bread and butter of a PF mounted character is spirited charge and furious focus.

That's pretty feat intensive.

I'd rather be a fighter and spend some of my gold on back up riding dogs until the wizard can summon a phantom steed for me or craft me a pet. And since evrything costs gold and not xp, why not.

Cavalier mount sucks hard for a major class feature cause you can replace it with gold. At least there isnt a wild cohort feat, yet.

[Keneth]

For example Order of the Staff makes you wizard cheerleader.

Great, now I have to get myself a female cavalier cohort to be my cheerleader.

[stack]

I would ultimately say that the cavalier does what it is intended to do at lower levels: be a non-paladin alternative to playing a chivalric knight. Unfortunately given the rules and system that is a very limiting thing to be. On top of that they disappointingly never give options inherent to the class for mounts with interesting alternate movement modes. At level 15 you SHOULD be riding a gryphon/giant eagle/dragon.

[Deathkeeper]

Thats an AWESOME Idea:

I can have a horse: And have THAT horse ride on ANOTHER horse.

Man, you are BRILLIANT. You deserve a nobel prize!

I believe someone wrote a comic about that...

On topic, I'd rather import 3.5's Knight and ask the GM if I can buy a hippogriff than play a Cavalier. At least Knights can do fun things with their Challenges and Attacks of Opportunity.

[grarrrg]

Cavalier Mount is still a full progression animal companion, so should not be frowned upon so much.

If needed, there is the Beast Rider archetype, which expands your list of possibilities (although this loses the Expert Trainer feature).

Cavalier archetypes are indeed the way to go though. You can usually find something that will trade away what you don't need for something you could use.

I must admit that overall I find Cavaliers much more useful for Dips than taking the whole class.

Beast Rider (as mentioned)
A Luring (Musketeer) Cavalier gets a good number of bonuses with Ranged weapons (especially Firearms).
Emissary moves are normal speed in Medium armor.
Huntmaster gives Whip proficiency! (the only class other than Bard to do so), and has Animal Companion instead of Mount (limited to birds and dogs though).

There is also a wide variety of Orders that can give you decent bonuses (these are less dip-able though).


Good for dipping, but maybe not the whole meal.

[Kudaku]

Personally I always thought cavaliers were bland. It didn't help that Paizo tied them to the teamwork feats, and then never released any more teamwork feats. It's possible that it's a great class and I just haven't had the right player pick it up yet, I guess...