The Best Feats and how to gain more?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Just a general consensus on what people believe the best feats to be and why.

Note, the more open it is (as in the more character types/builds can benefit from it) the better it will be considered, but you could also suggest feats that might only work for certain classes well.

But please no X is amazing when on Y Class and used with Z and A feats in a _____ way etc.

[Toliudar]

This is going to be very difficult to answer. I can't think of any feats that are amazing on any build. I suppose that Improved Initiative is always useful, because everyone rolls initiative. But a summoner or dragonfire adept might never roll an attack in their entire career, while a martial character doesn't use metamagic or crafting.

Maybe it would help to better understand the purpose of your inquiry?

[lsfreak]

But please no X is amazing when on Y Class and used with Z and A feats in a _____ way etc.

That's pretty much all that's useful, though. Feats exist in the context of a character, and while Improved Trip is pretty awesome for a fighter/barb/warblade, it's not going to be useful for most other classes, it needs other feats to support it and is only useful for a given style of fighting.

Given your criteria, I think the best feat is going to be Martial Study, because it's really about 100 different feats.

[BowStreetRunner]

Improved Toughness (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/improved-toughness--1581/) ftw!!!

[FleshrakerAbuse]

A mechanic that almost all classes use is health, so improved toughness is one of the few that fit well. Do you want just feats in general that work with a lot of classes (not all)? Save increasing feats are also good on most characters to adapt stat X to save Y, like Steadfast Determination. But otherwise, none that are general...

[Venusaur]

Shape Soulmeld and other Incarnum feats can be pretty good on almost everything.

[TuggyNE]

But please no X is amazing when on Y Class and used with Z and A feats in a _____ way etc.

Most feats (most anything in 3.5, in fact) are best in combos, because of the nature of customization. That's just how it works; almost nothing is self-optimizing.

A better criterion might be feats that are useful in more than one narrow niche; i.e., feats that are key to more than one substantially different build.

[eggynack]

Leadership. It's quite possibly the best feat on every single character ever.

[AmberVael]

I will agree with the others that feats are generally build specific in their worth. However, there are a few feats that pretty much anyone can benefit from having.

Improved Initiative: Going first in combat is pretty much good for anyone. It's not a killer feat, but you can do way worse than it.

Imperious Command: I've made a lot of builds, and somehow this feat tends to end up on quite a few. It's just hard to argue with a no-save, standard action, non-magical ability that makes someone cower, especially when it is combined with an ability to lower the action of demoralize attempts (like fearsome armor). Effectively stunning someone with a move action is great. Its one real weakness is that it is a mind-affecting ability.

Leadership: You know how most people have one character? Well, you can have two. You'd think the strength of that would have been obvious to the people designing the game, but nooooope.

Mark of the Dauntless. Absurd on some builds (unbridled celerity powaaah), a relief on others (die psychic enervation, die!), and a situational but nice ability on others. Being dazed and stunned is bad. This makes you and possibly your friends not dazed or stunned. Handy.

Mindsight: Do you want a pretty much unbeatable typically long range sense that gives you some automatic information about your enemy? I do. If you can qualify for Mindsight, you generally take it with no questions asked. It's just great.

Skill Focus (Basketweaving): Baskets can save your life. All hail basketweaving.

[Acanous]

Power Attack is pretty versitile, useful on Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Warblades, Druids, and certain Wizards.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Skill Focus (Basketweaving): Baskets can save your life. All hail basketweaving.

So true. Druids have even more synergy with it, but all classes can hail such magnificent power.

[undead hero]

I'm a fan of getting Immunity to Mind Effecting stuff soo...

Be something reasonable like LE and worship an elder evil... You get a free Vile feat at level 1 and then 1 for ever 5 HD you acquire.

There are some other awesome vile feats... Take a gander.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Power Attack is pretty versitile, useful on Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Warblades, Druids, and certain Wizards.

Now I never understood why people love this so much.

I mean yea, the extra damage (at least when two-handed) is pretty good.
But you trade away your attack, and with limited ways to increase that and the insanely high AC some enemies have, isn't this more a crippiling and/or unused feat most of the time?

[eggynack]

Now I never understood why people love this so much.

I mean yea, the extra damage (at least when two-handed) is pretty good.
But you trade away your attack, and with limited ways to increase that and the insanely high AC some enemies have, isn't this more a crippiling and/or unused feat most of the time?
There are a couple of reasons. The first, is that it is often a net average increase in damage. Even when hitting isn't a sure thing, and it sometimes is, pushing some points into power attack can get you some extra damage, even after considering the drop to attack. Toy around with a power attack calculator (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/), and see the results. The second, and more powerful, is shock trooper. That feat lets you drop AC instead of attack bonus, so you can basically push as many points into power attack as you want. It leaves you vulnerable, but you don't care, because the enemy you just hit is dead.

Edit: I forgot one. When the enemy has DR, power attack's contribution to damage rises considerably. This is also true when attacking folks who use miss chance as a defense instead of AC. In that case, pushing points into power attack is a sure thing.

[ArcturusV]

Usually the math goes the other way. Figure, the bonuses to your AC from magic are offset by the bonuses to Attack from Magic. So you're left with harder stuff to boost AC to get an advantage over attack. Stats aren't it as your Dex will almost always be a capped limitation, and my Strength/Dex/Wisdom or what have you will be at full bonuses. At level 20, I'll have +20 to attack. The only place you can really make up the difference is Armor (Where you might squeeze out a +10) and Natural Armor (Which is usually pitifully low if anything, exception for like, half-devil Template which gives you +1 natural armor per Hit Dice).

So you're looking at a net +10 advantage, worst case scenarios, for Attack over AC. You can give up 5 and be quite comfortable in having something like a 70% chance to hit.

As for best feats?

I'd probably say Dark Speech. If you can't find a use for it on your character? You're not trying.

Nymph's Kiss is a favorite of mine as well.

In builds where I'm FLUSH with extra feats (Rare, but happens) and sucking the big one on Skills, I like Open Minded.

[Gwazi Magnum]

There are a couple of reasons. The first, is that it is often a net average increase in damage. Even when hitting isn't a sure thing, and it sometimes is, pushing some points into power attack can get you some extra damage, even after considering the drop to attack. Toy around with a power attack calculator (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/), and see the results. The second, and more powerful, is shock trooper. That feat lets you drop AC instead of attack bonus, so you can basically push as many points into power attack as you want. It leaves you vulnerable, but you don't care, because the enemy you just hit is dead.

Edit: I forgot one. When the enemy has DR, power attack's contribution to damage rises considerably. This is also true when attacking folks who use miss chance as a defense instead of AC. In that case, pushing points into power attack is a sure thing.

Trading for AC I can agree with a lot more, I just ramp up my health.

Though, that is only when I charge. Charging is not possible much of the time during combat so it's situational at best.
At least from my combat experience, if there are ways to make charges done each turn that might change though.
Are there ways to be charging constantly in combat or is it really just a start of battle sort of deal?


Usually the math goes the other way. Figure, the bonuses to your AC from magic are offset by the bonuses to Attack from Magic. So you're left with harder stuff to boost AC to get an advantage over attack. Stats aren't it as your Dex will almost always be a capped limitation, and my Strength/Dex/Wisdom or what have you will be at full bonuses. At level 20, I'll have +20 to attack. The only place you can really make up the difference is Armor (Where you might squeeze out a +10) and Natural Armor (Which is usually pitifully low if anything, exception for like, half-devil Template which gives you +1 natural armor per Hit Dice).

So you're looking at a net +10 advantage, worst case scenarios, for Attack over AC. You can give up 5 and be quite comfortable in having something like a 70% chance to hit.

As for best feats?

I'd probably say Dark Speech. If you can't find a use for it on your character? You're not trying.

Nymph's Kiss is a favorite of mine as well.

In builds where I'm FLUSH with extra feats (Rare, but happens) and sucking the big one on Skills, I like Open Minded.

That's just in terms of PCs.
Monsters have magical bonuses, lots of natural armor etc.
Also players can still use the magic items that give +5 and +8 to AC. That's a +13 bonus on top of Dexterity, 10 standard, Armours bonus and enchantment bonuses.

I know attack scales faster than AC, but that's mostly for players and it's still not to the point I want to see my attack go down the drain over it.

As for dark speech, I can see some uses.
But would you be able to share some good ways to take full advantage of such a feat?

[eggynack]

Trading for AC I can agree with a lot more, I just ramp up my health.

Though, that is only when I charge. Charging is not possible much of the time during combat so it's situational at best.
At least from my combat experience, if there are ways to make charges done each turn that might change though.
Are there ways to be charging constantly in combat or is it really just a start of battle sort of deal?

The trick is combining shock trooper with pounce. That way, you're basically killing every enemy that you charge at. Thus, the best shock trooper builds have a level or two of barbarian, trading fast movement for pounce, rage for whirling frenzy, and maybe uncanny dodge for improved trip. If you kill an enemy with your charge, then you can charge at a different enemy on the next round.

[Gwazi Magnum]

The trick is combining shock trooper with pounce. That way, you're basically killing every enemy that you charge at. Thus, the best shock trooper builds have a level or two of barbarian, trading fast movement for pounce, rage for whirling frenzy, and maybe uncanny dodge for improved trip. If you kill an enemy with your charge, then you can charge at a different enemy on the next round.

Though this runs the large risk of either:

a) All the minions are in a general area, so I cannot charge from one to another

b) It's one or two really big guys who might not go down from such power attack abuse.

[undead hero]

Though this runs the large risk of either:

a) All the minions are in a general area, so I cannot charge from one to another

b) It's one or two really big guys who might not go down from such power attack abuse.

This isn't really a problem since you will be able to kill mooks easily.

Also... A great tactic is...

A) Charge and Kill
B) Friendly Mage (who already has a summon monster up...) casts Benign Transposition on you and it. Make sure the summon monster moves away from the mooks. Summon Monster then attacks to soften up the enemies.
C) Charge and Kill Again.

[eggynack]

Though this runs the large risk of either:

a) All the minions are in a general area, so I cannot charge from one to another

b) It's one or two really big guys who might not go down from such power attack abuse.
Well, in the former case, they'd have to be pretty far apart. If you rock a reach weapon then you can charge at enemies that are around 50 feet away. That increases by a bit if you can pull either a size or speed increase, with the size increase having a higher likelihood. In the latter case, there isn't really much that can stand up to a well built barbarian ubercharger. Whirling frenzy gives you an additional attack at your highest iterative, and every hit comes with twice your HD in damage, on top of your normal stuff. A good shock trooper build can deal a ridiculous amount of damage in a turn. It has its limitations, as anything melee does, but it's one of the best things you can do with melee feats.

[Kaeso]

Power Attack is pretty versitile, useful on Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Warblades, Druids, and certain Wizards.

Please, do elaborate. :smallconfused:

[Devronq]

As far as getting more feats there's flaws as well as something about worshiping an elder evil grants you an additional feat every 5 levels? I don't remember exactly how to do so Ive just seen in referenced in builds...

[undead hero]

Please, do elaborate. :smallconfused:

Wizard can cast Polymorph.... Twelve Headed Hydra....

[Gwazi Magnum]

I also forgot with the attack VS AC thing.

Magic weapons lose their accuracy bonus if you choose to gain enchant bonuses like fire weapon instead. And since these are powerful enchantments you probably do want them and as a result won't gain a bonus to attack rolls from your weapon other than it being master work.


This isn't really a problem since you will be able to kill mooks easily.

Also... A great tactic is...

A) Charge and Kill
B) Friendly Mage (who already has a summon monster up...) casts Benign Transposition on you and it. Make sure the summon monster moves away from the mooks. Summon Monster then attacks to soften up the enemies.
C) Charge and Kill Again.

Teleport I can see working :)

Are there ways I can do this though without relying on another party member?


Well, in the former case, they'd have to be pretty far apart. If you rock a reach weapon then you can charge at enemies that are around 50 feet away. That increases by a bit if you can pull either a size or speed increase, with the size increase having a higher likelihood. In the latter case, there isn't really much that can stand up to a well built barbarian ubercharger. Whirling frenzy gives you an additional attack at your highest iterative, and every hit comes with twice your HD in damage, on top of your normal stuff. A good shock trooper build can deal a ridiculous amount of damage in a turn. It has its limitations, as anything melee does, but it's one of the best things you can do with melee feats.


No, I mean they're all close together so even after the charge there are still those close enough a charge won't work.
If they were far apart a charge would work every turn.

I don't get how a reach weapon helps in regards to charging each turn though.

[eggynack]

No, I mean they're all close together so even after the charge there are still those close enough a charge won't work.
If they were far apart a charge would work every turn.

I don't get how a reach weapon helps in regards to charging each turn though.
Ah, that makes more sense. Still, there are some ways around that problem. Anklets of translocation can get you back out to charge range, and they're pretty cheap. In terms of the reach weapon, I was just pointing out that you can potentially charge at even longer distances. The fact that a guisarme or spiked chain tend to be excellent weapons on a character with improved trip, just makes things even better.

[HunterOfJello]

The old [3.x] What are the most useful feats that are not build/class-dependent? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253603) thread had a decent list in it.

It is worth noting that it did, in turn, steal from the Better feat list for 3.5 (or "what's your favourite feat?") (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244841) thread.


The main feat list in question is a shortened version of this one:


Ignoring most [Epic] feats and most feats that are only useful as prerequisites.

General Interest
(Including some feats that merely reduce MAD or grant new uses of skills)
Ability Focus (MM)
Air Heritage (PlH)
Darkstalker (LoM)
Expeditious Dodge (RotW)
Flyby Attack (MM)
Imperious Command (DotU)
Improved Familiar (PHB/PGtF/CSc/CW/FRCS/RoF)
Improved Flight (RotW)
Improved Initiative (PHB)
Keen Intellect (UE)
Master of Poisons (DotU)
Midnight Dodge (MoI)
Mindsight (LoM)
Nymph's Kiss (BoED)
Obtain Familiar (CA)
Open Greater Chakra (MoI)
Open Least Chakra (MoI)
Open Lesser Chakra (MoI)
Quick Reconnoiter (CAdv)
Quick Recovery (LoM)
Shape Soulmeld (MoI)
Steadfast Determination (PHB2)
Steady Concentration (RoS)
Tactile Trapsmith (CAdv)
True Believer (MIC)
Versatile Performer (CAdv)
Wanderer's Diplomacy (PHB2)
Wild Cohort (Web)

I recommend banning or nerfing the following:
Arcane Thesis (PHB2)
Assume Supernatural Ability (SS)
Craft Contingent Spell (CA)
Dragon Cohort (Drac)
Easy Metamagic (Dr325)
Greenbound Summoning (LEoF)
Item Familiar (UA)
Shock Trooper (CW)
Leadership (DMG)
Metamagic Spell Trigger (CM)
Metamorphic Transfer (XPH)
Natural Spell (PHB)
Precocious Apprentice (CA)
Sanctum Spell (CA)
Southern Magician (RoF)
Spellfire Wielder (MoF)
Supernatural Transformation (SS)
Undead Leadership (LM)


I included banning/nerfing list just because.

[Xervous]

Bind vestige, because Naberius

*whoa, quick typo fix

[Agincourt]

Leadership: You know how most people have one character? Well, you can have two. You'd think the strength of that would have been obvious to the people designing the game, but nooooope.


I'm pretty sure that it was obvious to the game designers. Look in the PHB where it says, "Check with your DM before selecting this feat," and it has its own section in the DMG where it specifically warns DMs about the potential problems of allowing a player to have a cohort. It also warns DMs that they might only want to allow leadership as an option if their group is short on players.

The designers may have made mistakes, but I don't understand the mentality of getting mad at them for offering options, especially when they explicitly laid out the pros and cons.

[Zetapup]

Teleport I can see working :)

Are there ways I can do this though without relying on another party member?


Well, travel devotion lets you move up to your land speed as a swift action for a bit each day. You can get it by taking it as a feat or dipping cleric and getting it in exchange for one of your domains.

As said before, anklets of translocation also work for this purpose.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well, travel devotion lets you move up to your land speed as a swift action for a bit each day. You can get it by taking it as a feat or dipping cleric and getting it in exchange for one of your domains.

As said before, anklets of translocation also work for this purpose.

Maybe, the feat is very limited times per day though.
Even with converting turn undead attempts.

My concern with the anklets is that it's from Path Finder, and since it's for a 3.5 campaign the DM may be reluctant to allow it.

[Divide by Zero]

Maybe, the feat is very limited times per day though.
Even with converting turn undead attempts.

My concern with the anklets is that it's from Path Finder, and since it's for a 3.5 campaign the DM may be reluctant to allow it.

Are you accounting for the fact that it lasts for 1 minute with each use?

And the anklets are also in MIC.

[eggynack]

Maybe, the feat is very limited times per day though.
Even with converting turn undead attempts.

My concern with the anklets is that it's from Path Finder, and since it's for a 3.5 campaign the DM may be reluctant to allow it.
Anklets of translocation are on page 71 of the magic item compendium. I don't know if they're also in pathfinder, but they're certainly accessible in a 3.5 game.

[ArcturusV]

As for dark speech, I can see some uses.
But would you be able to share some good ways to take full advantage of such a feat?

Well, the most Abuseatastic feature of Dark Speech, is that you can use Dark Speech to form a Hive Mind, where yes, insane numbers of Feats, skills, and Sorcerer Spellcasting on creatures that are generally weak enough that a "Mass Charm _____" can bring them entirely under your thumb. Or various "Leadership" type things for that matter if you chain the use. Even without chaining the uses, it's still pretty powerful.

It can also boost the Turn Resistance of Undead, so if you're of the Undead gathering/using variety, you can help keep your horde from getting dusted by the Cleric of the Burning Hate with the Sun Domain.

Dark Speech is also a free "Destroy an Object", that requires absolutely no preparation, components, etc. If your DM strips your character naked and throws him in a prison cell you can still crack your way out easy peasy with Dark Speech. No need for Spell Mastery over some I Win button, Eidetic Spellbook, etc, etc.

You also get a NON-Mind Affecting Fear Effect. Which is kinda hard to find in general. But always handy. Which can be used as a Taunt in a way that generally doesn't work in the game. Unless you're dealing with Evil blokes, in which case Dark Speech is a non-mind affecting way to bring them under your thrall.

All that utility for the cost of a single feat and some temporary stat damage? Heck yeah. Stat damage is easy enough to clear out.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Are you accounting for the fact that it lasts for 1 minute with each use?

And the anklets are also in MIC.

Yes, but the other issue is. 1 time per day, if combat happens more than once in the day I'm stuck for the other one.


Anklets of translocation are on page 71 of the magic item compendium. I don't know if they're also in pathfinder, but they're certainly accessible in a 3.5 game.

Ah, it seems google failed me this time! XD

Though looking over the item t's only twice a day and unlike the feat above no duration. This would last me at the most 2 turns.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well, the most Abuseatastic feature of Dark Speech, is that you can use Dark Speech to form a Hive Mind, where yes, insane numbers of Feats, skills, and Sorcerer Spellcasting on creatures that are generally weak enough that a "Mass Charm _____" can bring them entirely under your thumb. Or various "Leadership" type things for that matter if you chain the use. Even without chaining the uses, it's still pretty powerful.

It can also boost the Turn Resistance of Undead, so if you're of the Undead gathering/using variety, you can help keep your horde from getting dusted by the Cleric of the Burning Hate with the Sun Domain.

Dark Speech is also a free "Destroy an Object", that requires absolutely no preparation, components, etc. If your DM strips your character naked and throws him in a prison cell you can still crack your way out easy peasy with Dark Speech. No need for Spell Mastery over some I Win button, Eidetic Spellbook, etc, etc.

You also get a NON-Mind Affecting Fear Effect. Which is kinda hard to find in general. But always handy. Which can be used as a Taunt in a way that generally doesn't work in the game. Unless you're dealing with Evil blokes, in which case Dark Speech is a non-mind affecting way to bring them under your thrall.

All that utility for the cost of a single feat and some temporary stat damage? Heck yeah. Stat damage is easy enough to clear out.

I'm kind of confused by your first use of it.

How does it exactly work with spells and leadership?

The other uses do sound awesome though.

[eggynack]

Ah, it seems google failed me this time! XD

Though looking over the item t's only twice a day and unlike the feat above no duration. This would last me at the most 2 turns.
They only cost 1,400 GP each. You can pick up a couple if you want. Additionally, I really doubt that you need them more than twice a day, at least for this purpose. In order to require the use of anklets, you need either a group of enemies that are individually powerful enough to withstand a full attack, or a single enemy that can withstand a full power charge attack, followed by a high power full attack. These situations can theoretically occur, but they're rare. Shock trooper can one shot most enemies, and regular stabbing tactics can usually kill single enemies out of a close knit group. Anklets are for the exceptions, not the rule.

[Gwazi Magnum]

They only cost 1,400 GP each. You can pick up a couple if you want. Additionally, I really doubt that you need them more than twice a day, at least for this purpose. In order to require the use of anklets, you need either a group of enemies that are individually powerful enough to withstand a full attack, or a single enemy that can withstand a full power charge attack, followed by a high power full attack. These situations can theoretically occur, but they're rare. Shock trooper can one shot most enemies, and regular stabbing tactics can usually kill single enemies out of a close knit group. Anklets are for the exceptions, not the rule.

I'll grant that they're the exception, not the rule.
But the DM may notice my tactics in that regard and alter the enemies in future encounters accordingly so I cannot kill them in one turn.

So, then I will need a reliable way to repeat the tactic.
Also, I could buy more than one yes, but changing them in the middle of the combat would slow me down too much and expose me to attacks of opportunity gallore.

[ArcturusV]

Well, say you use Leadership to get an Animal of some sort. Go get a Barn Owl or a House Cat, whatever. Because of Leadership it's loyal to you as long as you don't go around torturing it and what not.

You use said animal in forming the initial hivemind. Because it's loyal to you, the Hivemind being part of that creature means the Hivemind as a whole would be loyal to you. So now you got a cluster of 100 animals formed into a Hivemind willing to do your will. Find 99 other animals, bind them into the Hivemind again by linking them with one creature from the original hivemind. Now you have one of 199. Repeat as needed. After you reach 50 creatures in a hive mind, each 20 counts as: +1 Int (set to 5 if the creature didn't have an Int score like most vermin), +1 Skill Point, +1 Feat, +1 Charisma.

If they hit 18 Charisma, they become a Sorcerer, where any individual member of the Hivemind can cast Sorcerer spells from a collective Spells Per Day pool, Sorcerer Level equals Charisma - 17.

The Crabpocalypse, where I had some 3,000 odd Crabs united in a Hivemind was really, really scary. They scourged the countryside with Epic Spellcasting crabs.

Dark Speech, a scary tool.

[TuggyNE]

Yes, but the other issue is. 1 time per day, if combat happens more than once in the day I'm stuck for the other one.

Converting turns, you get Cha+4 1-minute uses per day, which should usually be enough even with a +0 Cha mod.

[eggynack]

I'll grant that they're the exception, not the rule.
But the DM may notice my tactics in that regard and alter the enemies in future encounters accordingly so I cannot kill them in one turn.

So, then I will need a reliable way to repeat the tactic.
Also, I could buy more than one yes, but changing them in the middle of the combat would slow me down too much and expose me to attacks of opportunity gallore.
It's not really a plan that stands up to much in the way of DM attacks. A flying enemy is enough to shut down the whole attack on the spot, if you have no way of flying. The DM could also put up some difficult terrain, or just make it generally difficult to get a straight charging line. Shock trooper is good at what it's good at, which is dealing absolutely ridiculous amounts of damage. A shock trooper build is possibly the best practical optimization damage dealer in the game. Generally, you don't switch out anklets mid-fight, and you just try to make due with the only halfway ridiculous damage you can deal without shock trooper. Anklets are pretty great though, even without some direct purpose for them.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well, say you use Leadership to get an Animal of some sort. Go get a Barn Owl or a House Cat, whatever. Because of Leadership it's loyal to you as long as you don't go around torturing it and what not.

You use said animal in forming the initial hivemind. Because it's loyal to you, the Hivemind being part of that creature means the Hivemind as a whole would be loyal to you. So now you got a cluster of 100 animals formed into a Hivemind willing to do your will. Find 99 other animals, bind them into the Hivemind again by linking them with one creature from the original hivemind. Now you have one of 199. Repeat as needed. After you reach 50 creatures in a hive mind, each 20 counts as: +1 Int (set to 5 if the creature didn't have an Int score like most vermin), +1 Skill Point, +1 Feat, +1 Charisma.

If they hit 18 Charisma, they become a Sorcerer, where any individual member of the Hivemind can cast Sorcerer spells from a collective Spells Per Day pool, Sorcerer Level equals Charisma - 17.

The Crabpocalypse, where I had some 3,000 odd Crabs united in a Hivemind was really, really scary. They scourged the countryside with Epic Spellcasting crabs.

Dark Speech, a scary tool.

I doubt I'd want to make a legion of animals that are powerful sorcerers. That just has cheesy all over it. :P

The other stuff from the earlier post still seems pretty awesome though.


Converting turns, you get Cha+4 1-minute uses per day, which should usually be enough even with a +0 Cha mod.

This would work for a Cleric dip I admit.

Though I had gotten into the mindset of my character plan atm where if I take a spell casting class like Cleric I lose Gestalt which is why I didn't look at Cleric as an option. Though this leads me to ask, is there ways to gain the turn undead feature to use with feats like Travel Devotion without being a Cleric?


It's not really a plan that stands up to much in the way of DM attacks. A flying enemy is enough to shut down the whole attack on the spot, if you have no way of flying. The DM could also put up some difficult terrain, or just make it generally difficult to get a straight charging line. Shock trooper is good at what it's good at, which is dealing absolutely ridiculous amounts of damage. A shock trooper build is possibly the best practical optimization damage dealer in the game. Generally, you don't switch out anklets mid-fight, and you just try to make due with the only halfway ridiculous damage you can deal without shock trooper. Anklets are pretty great though, even without some direct purpose for them.

I just don't like tactics the DM can very easily fix.

Granted, I'm doing this in terms of a DM who see's d&d more as a competition (so not a very good one, but the only person in my local group of friends from high school outside of me willing to DM, and I want to be a player still), but the shock trooper seems more like something where even a good and fair DM could counter it rather fairly and legitimately.

[DeusMortuusEst]

You need two feats, but embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos together are probably the most powerful combination of feats out there. Herp

Shuffle shuffle. Derp

[ArcturusV]

Oh, definitely cheesy, no question.

But all around it's a fun feat with a lot of solid utility.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You need two feats, but embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos together are probably the most powerful combination of feats out there.

Shuffle shuffle.

Those are spells though, not feats.

[Divide by Zero]

Though I had gotten into the mindset of my character plan atm where if I take a spell casting class like Cleric I lose Gestalt which is why I didn't look at Cleric as an option. Though this leads me to ask, is there ways to gain the turn undead feature to use with feats like Travel Devotion without being a Cleric?

Some other classes get it too, Paladin and Binder for noncasters off the top of my head (Binder takes 7 levels [or 5 levels and a feat] but then you can do it all day long).

[Gwazi Magnum]

Oh, definitely cheesy, no question.

But all around it's a fun feat with a lot of solid utility.

True, I'll probably still pick it up for it's other uses.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Those are spells though, not feats.

Herp derp. It's early here and I haven't had my breakfast yet...

[Gwazi Magnum]

Some other classes get it too, Paladin and Binder for noncasters off the top of my head (Binder takes 7 levels [or 5 levels and a feat] but then you can do it all day long).

True, and honestly I completely forgot about that! XD

The 4 level investment seems a bit steep though.
Though I might still get it since I'm considering a 2 level dip into the class any ways.

However, in terms of Paladins and Feats, is there a kind of feat or something I can pick up to lose my Aura of Good or make it so the aura doesn't give away my alignment automatically?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Herp derp. It's early here and I haven't had my breakfast yet...

lol, no harm done.

We all make mistakes! :smallbiggrin:

[ArcturusV]

Not that I can think of. Lots of stuff like Undetectable Alignment (Heck, it's a Paladin spell). But I can't remember it being in Feat Form anywhere.

[GilesTheCleric]

This would work for a Cleric dip I admit.

Though I had gotten into the mindset of my character plan atm where if I take a spell casting class like Cleric I lose Gestalt which is why I didn't look at Cleric as an option. Though this leads me to ask, is there ways to gain the turn undead feature to use with feats like Travel Devotion without being a Cleric?


Druids can also turn undead with a bone talisman (IIRC). You can also look at the Prestige Paladin, and I think there's a Prestige Cleric as well, although I'm not sure about that (who would play such a thing? Cleric 1 is so great). Also cloistered cleric.

All the things that have been suggested here are pretty good, but if you don't want things that your DM might object to, you might rephrase the OP to "what feats are reasonable to play in a game with other low-op characters, but still good?".

Things other people have mentioned yet: The Catalogues of Enlightenment. So versatile. Also, any X to Y feat that applies to what you're building. There's a thread for those.

Able Learner and Cosmopolitan are good for almost any build as well.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Not that I can think of. Lots of stuff like Undetectable Alignment (Heck, it's a Paladin spell). But I can't remember it being in Feat Form anywhere.

I'm aware spells can do it.

But a feat would be nice so it can't be turned off by a 'magical barrier' sort of deal.


Druids can also turn undead with a bone talisman (IIRC). You can also look at the Prestige Paladin, and I think there's a Prestige Cleric as well, although I'm not sure about that (who would play such a thing? Cleric 1 is so great). Also cloistered cleric.

All the things that have been suggested here are pretty good, but if you don't want things that your DM might object to, you might rephrase the OP to "what feats are reasonable to play in a game with other low-op characters, but still good?".

Things other people have mentioned yet: The Catalogues of Enlightenment. So versatile. Also, any X to Y feat that applies to what you're building. There's a thread for those.

Able Learner and Cosmopolitan are good for almost any build as well.

Druids have the same issue in the whole non-gestalt thing.

The DM issue here is more, tier 1 and 2 classes will make it so I can't be Gestalt, which I want to be.
It's not a matter of feats being questionable to him though.

Well they are, he might complain when I bring some in game but since the campaign has the ruling of 'everything from the manuals allowed',
I am allowed to take the feats I want to have.

As for the other feats you suggested.

I can't find the Catalogues anywhere, where is it from?

Is able learner still that useful if I don't multi-class much or at all?

And Cosmoplitan, is there something I'm missing because that looks like just another skill feat.

[GilesTheCleric]

I'm aware spells can do it.

But a feat would be nice so it can't be turned off by a 'magical barrier' sort of deal.



Druids have the same issue in the whole non-gestalt thing.

The DM issue here is more, tier 1 and 2 classes will make it so I can't be Gestalt, which I want to be.
It's not a matter of feats being questionable to him though.

Well they are, he might complain when I bring some in game but since the campaign has the ruling of 'everything from the manuals allowed',
I am allowed to take the feats I want to have.

As for the other feats you suggested.

I can't find the Catalogues anywhere, where is it from?

Is able learner still that useful if I don't multi-class much or at all?

And Cosmoplitan, is there something I'm missing because that looks like just another skill feat.

Ah, sorry about the gestalt thing. I've never played one of those, or even looked at the rules for that in a long time.

The Catalogues are one of the Planar Touchstones. The touchstones themselves have some cool things, but the catalogues allow you to pick any cleric domain, which is great. It's in two books, and one of them is PlH 153. I think they added more of them in Sandstorm or something weird. The feat for it is just "Planar Touchstone", on PlH 38.

Well, I don't know what your build is, but if it's not a caster, then you should probably be multiclassing. Even then, Druid and Wiz have some worthwhile PrCs. Cleric, not so much.

Cosmopolitan is "just another skill feat", but it's also one that gives you UMD on any class.

Another good feat is Educated, which gives you all of the knowledge skills, and +1 to them (not that it matters much). Mix this with the Knowledge Devotion feat, and you're golden.

Hope this helps! ^^

EDIT: anti-magic fields aren't a problem for clerics. I'm sure wizards have ways around those, too, but I don't know wizards well enough. Don't forget that spells that don't have an SR will work, so the Orb spells and things like melf's acid arrow can still be used. I think Wildshape is Ex, so Druids shouldn't care about AMF.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ah, sorry about the gestalt thing. I've never played one of those, or even looked at the rules for that in a long time.

The Catalogues are one of the Planar Touchstones. The touchstones themselves have some cool things, but the catalogues allow you to pick any cleric domain, which is great. It's in two books, and one of them is PlH 153. I think they added more of them in Sandstorm or something weird. The feat for it is just "Planar Touchstone", on PlH 38.

Well, I don't know what your build is, but if it's not a caster, then you should probably be multiclassing. Even then, Druid and Wiz have some worthwhile PrCs. Cleric, not so much.

Cosmopolitan is "just another skill feat", but it's also one that gives you UMD on any class.

Another good feat is Educated, which gives you all of the knowledge skills, and +1 to them (not that it matters much). Mix this with the Knowledge Devotion feat, and you're golden.

Hope this helps! ^^

EDIT: anti-magic fields aren't a problem for clerics. I'm sure wizards have ways around those, too, but I don't know wizards well enough. Don't forget that spells that don't have an SR will work, so the Orb spells and things like melf's acid arrow can still be used. I think Wildshape is Ex, so Druids shouldn't care about AMF.

If you've never played Gestalt before I should clarify a bit more.

In RAW you can Gestalt with any class no issues. But in the campaign I'm in specifically that's using it tier 1 and 2 classes aren't allowed for it.

Maybe D&D Tools is out of date, but when I look at it it says educated gives a +2 bonus to educated and mentions nothing on Cosmopolitan and use magic device.

The Planar Touchstone looks interesting, I can see an extra domain being awesome for a Cleric. I doubt it for my character though, I'm too worried the group will consider that me abusing a loop hole with the whole gestalt, no tier 1 casting sort of deal.

As for which classes I'm using?

I'm using the Generic Classes from Unearthed Arcana.
One side is Expert, the other is Warrior.

In total they give me a total of 18 skills to make class skills and I have a base of 6 + Int Mod skill points to spend on them.
So although feats like Educated are normally really good, it should be covered for me in this specific case, unless if I end up needing around 20 class skills for some reason.

As for the anti-magic, the DM for this campaign honestly isn't not that knowledgeable on d&d mechanics nor does he care to learn them, especially when learning new mechanics means he can't DM rule how something works and the players can actually make builds to avoid certain things.

He uses a DM "I say so" sort of magic barrier where anything really considered magical in his eyes to not work.
If I brought up the rules to him he'd say there's not enough time for that now, that it's too weak and opens 'abuse' from the players too much or simply rule that as the DM he's changing it.

[GilesTheCleric]

The feats I'm looking at: Education (FRCS 34): "all know skills are class skills. You get a +1 on all skill checks with any two know skills of your choosing"

Cosmopolitan (FRCS 34): "choose a nonexclusive skill you do not have as a class skill. You gain a +2 bonus on all checks with that skill, and that skill is always considered a class skill for you"

My apologies for being unclear before, but the Catalogues only give the domain granted powers, not the spells. Check my Deities with Reach Weapons thread for a link to a thread with more info on the catalogues, and how awesome they are.

Education+knowledge devotion means that you can get up to +5 IIRC on all your attacks, with nothing more than a knowledge check. The best part is that even if your know skills are low, you still get a minimum +1 to attack.

If your DM isn't going to follow the rules, then there's not much that we can say. Fiat is fiat. You'll just have to use your own intuition to figure out how far he's willing to go on things. The only way that I could conceivably think of that should let you get around fiat is using the Shadow Weave instead of the Weave, because that isn't affected by things that affect the Weave. I can't think of anything that affect both. If it does, then it's fiat with a capital F.

[Gwazi Magnum]

The feats I'm looking at: Education (FRCS 34): "all know skills are class skills. You get a +1 on all skill checks with any two know skills of your choosing"

Cosmopolitan (FRCS 34): "choose a nonexclusive skill you do not have as a class skill. You gain a +2 bonus on all checks with that skill, and that skill is always considered a class skill for you"

My apologies for being unclear before, but the Catalogues only give the domain granted powers, not the spells. Check my Deities with Reach Weapons thread for a link to a thread with more info on the catalogues, and how awesome they are.

Education+knowledge devotion means that you can get up to +5 IIRC on all your attacks, with nothing more than a knowledge check. The best part is that even if your know skills are low, you still get a minimum +1 to attack.

If your DM isn't going to follow the rules, then there's not much that we can say. Fiat is fiat. You'll just have to use your own intuition to figure out how far he's willing to go on things. The only way that I could conceivably think of that should let you get around fiat is using the Shadow Weave instead of the Weave, because that isn't affected by things that affect the Weave. I can't think of anything that affect both. If it does, then it's fiat with a capital F.

I found he's more of the capital F kind of DM.

Anyways, I'm well aware of Knowledge Devotion and taking it.

My point on education was that with 18 class skills of my choosing, I can easily make a number of them the knowledge ones without a feat.

[GilesTheCleric]

Ah, I see. Well, it seems like you know how to deal with fiat, so I'll leave that to you. Good luck ^^

My apologies for misunderstanding your point on Education. If you're allowed to take UMD with all of those skills, that is, as always, a great investment.

I should have mentioned a few other feats, but I'll just summarize and say that most of the reserve feats are pretty useful. I think dndtools will let you sort by feat type, so it should be easy to get a list of those. They're mostly in the Complete books if dndtools won't find them for you.

I guess I did miss a bit of the OP - if you're looking to get more feats, then I don't know if anyone has mentioned the spell Heroics yet, or flaws. I did see someone mentioned the chaos shuffle.

If you weren't playing gestalt, there's an ACF for rogues that gives them feats instead of sneak attack - it might also be in UA. I think it's just called "feat rogue" or something. I think that even as a gestalt you can multiclass, so there's always the option of grabbing a few levels of monk and fighter for those free feats. If you're not already a human or other race that grants feats, then you could try being reincarnated and hoping for the best.

EDIT: you can also get additional feats from fantastic locations (PHB2), and from items (DMG has some, I think. Intelligent items are allowed to have feats for sure). The MIC also has a bunch of items that grant free feats or the benefits of feats.

[Thurbane]

Willing Deformity (Madness): immunity to mind effects; add 1/2 character level to a Will save as an immediate action 1/minute (downside: -4 penalty to Wisdom)
Willing Deformity (Tall): adds 5 foot reach to a medium character (downside: -1 to AC, -2 to Hide)

[Jeff the Green]

The Planar Touchstone looks interesting, I can see an extra domain being awesome for a Cleric. I doubt it for my character though, I'm too worried the group will consider that me abusing a loop hole with the whole gestalt, no tier 1 casting sort of deal.

You don't get the domain, you get the domain power. There are some awesome ones, though:

Baator (Spell Compendium, Planar Domain): see perfectly in darkness or deeper darkness
Bestial (BoVD): gain scent
Celerity (Spell Compendium): increase land speed +10'
Demonic (BoVD/FC1): +1 divine/profane bonus on attack and damage with unarmed strikes and natural weapons.
Destruction (Core): smite naughty 1/day
Dream (Spell Compendium): immune to fear
Elysium (Spell Compendium, Planar Domain): smite evil 1/day
Fate (Spell Compendium): gain uncanny dodge ability.
Hunger (Spell Compendium): gain a bite attack
Inquisition (Spell Compendium): +4 bonus on dispel checks
Luck (Core): reroll any roll 1/day
Magic (Core): activate spell-trigger and spell-completion items as 1st level wizard.
Orc (Spell Compendium): smite naughty 1/day
Storm (Spell Compendium): gain electricity resistance 5
War (Core): gain weapon proficiency and weapon focus feats (see below)

I'll also add Pride (reroll natural 1s on saving throws), Fate (uncanny dodge), and Mind (+2 bluff, diplomacy, sense motive).

Another noticeable planar touchstone is Oxyrhyncus, which gets you an extra attack at -5 against flatfooted foes.

There's also the Touchstone feat from Sandstorm.

[Xervous]

Looking at the UA rules, I count that you will have 18 bonus feats come level 20, in addition to your standard 7.

With a gestalt of warrior/expert, you will have full BAB, all good saves, 6+int skill points, and 18 class skills of your choosing plus craft and profession.

If your point buy/roll is good enough, I'd suggest making an all around character that can contribute to nearly every situation: a skill monkey that's also a dex based tripper.

good feats for this:

Darkstalker: to give you a chance against monster's special senses.
Two weapon fighting and company
Combat expertise (as a prereq for Imp. trip)
Improved Trip: did I just trip you? I'll have a free attack thank you.
Combat Reflexes
Exotic weapon proficiency: Spiked chain
Martial study: pick up shadow jaunt when you qualify for it.
Martial stance: island of blades says hi: only choose island of blades if you've got a buddy who will help you use it. But it must be a shadow hand stance.
*Spend a feat slot here to get sneak attack as per UA generic classes rules. Optional.
*Craven: only take this is you got sneak attack
weapon finesse
Shadow Blade: because the spiked chain just happens to be a preferred weapon of the Shadow Hand school.
Jotunbrud: for +4 to trips and a few other things. HUMAN ONLY
Knockdown: Did I just do 10 damage? I'll have a free trip attempt thank you.
Backstab, from Dragon 340. 1 AoO per round against someone you flank who attacks anyone but you. If you have island of blades going, this is like candy.
Robillar's gambit.
Willing deformity + Deformity (tall) 5ft more reach is heavenly when magic is not easily accessible.


If you can acquire specific magic items, here are a few suggestions.

Living chain: MIC: 2k flat for +2 to trip
Sweeping: MIC: +1 cost for +2 to trip
Stuff to replicate expansion/enlarge person

If you come across other sources of trip boosting, layer it on. Also find some strength boosters in your spare time, its mostly for the + to trip but the tiny bit of damage helps.

Tripping is a rather binary competition, if you are optimized for tripping then 99% of things outside of other trippers or giant giants have no hope of resisting. With this abundance of feats, you can really layer on all the goodies that will make tripping shine.

You are not here to deal massive damage. You are here to cripple team monster, slow their progress, and whittle away at their health and patience. The outermost ring of your YOU SHALL NOT PASS zone is 15ft from you (with the deformities, without size enhancements). An enemy who wishes to come close to you and stay close will have to be extremely lucky or highly trip resistant.


On top of all this, you are a skill monkey with good HP, saves, and all the relevant skills. (note that most of these will not be maxed out)


Hide
Move Silently
Listen
Spot
Bluff
Diplomacy
Disable Device: which can be used to open locks
Search
UMD
All the relevant knowledges

[Ruethgar]

Vow of Poverty with AEG publishing and Chaos Shuffle enabled. Get an AEG witch to make a 1/week ring of chaos shuffle at caster level 1, only costs a few hundred gold(Mercantile Background gives 300). Now your level one elf has 2 flaws used up, 1 first available, 4 racial available, 1 VoP available. Yay 6 feats first level! Take one level of wizard for a 7th and the rest fighter for 2 feats at second and 1 feat/lvl thereafter(plus the normal every 3rd).

As to what feats are best, I am a big fan of Extra Slot, Sanctum Spell, Heighten Spell and Earth Spell together. Get two extra slots, re-write the lower level one til you have 9th, with the above shuffle, that's one 9th level spell 1/day at level 1... and you only have to dodge as many books as are at the table from the DM. Could grab a reserve feat instead of Extra Spell if you want a little more use. Also note that once you have the slot, you can re-write Earth Spell, Earth Sense and maybe Heighten Spell and Sanctum Spell(if you don't have 19 in your casting stat Sanctum makes you only need 18).

Outside of cheesy combos, I think Arcane Thesis is perhaps one of the best D&D feats such massive metamagic reduction in just one feat is well worth it for the right spell. With pathfinder included that is trumped by Spell Perfection with a persisted something or other. If you are just looking at d20 and mixing, Spycraft has Unlocked Potential(increase one skill's max ranks by 3) which can grant PrCs 3 levels earlier. I can't recall the setting, but Laborious Study can also grant early PrC entry. Tagging from 7th sea can be insanely powerful with a slew of natural attacks for its critical amplifiers.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ah, I see. Well, it seems like you know how to deal with fiat, so I'll leave that to you. Good luck ^^

My apologies for misunderstanding your point on Education. If you're allowed to take UMD with all of those skills, that is, as always, a great investment.

I should have mentioned a few other feats, but I'll just summarize and say that most of the reserve feats are pretty useful. I think dndtools will let you sort by feat type, so it should be easy to get a list of those. They're mostly in the Complete books if dndtools won't find them for you.

I guess I did miss a bit of the OP - if you're looking to get more feats, then I don't know if anyone has mentioned the spell Heroics yet, or flaws. I did see someone mentioned the chaos shuffle.

If you weren't playing gestalt, there's an ACF for rogues that gives them feats instead of sneak attack - it might also be in UA. I think it's just called "feat rogue" or something. I think that even as a gestalt you can multiclass, so there's always the option of grabbing a few levels of monk and fighter for those free feats. If you're not already a human or other race that grants feats, then you could try being reincarnated and hoping for the best.

EDIT: you can also get additional feats from fantastic locations (PHB2), and from items (DMG has some, I think. Intelligent items are allowed to have feats for sure). The MIC also has a bunch of items that grant free feats or the benefits of feats.

I looked at the reserves, and they seem mostly magic dependent.

You are allowed to mutli-class as Gestalt which is true, though the issue with Rogues I found is that with the variant it's only fighter bonus feats. Granted it's still an awesome ACF, but he heavily restricts the kind of feats I can take.

Monk, maybe. It defelently leaves me somewhat covered when without a weapon, but I'm not sure how badly I'd need the Monks feats.

I heard there was a way to gain bonus feats as an elf, does anyone here know how that works?
Because my current planned character is a Drow so I'm hoping will also count as Elf (LA buy-off, with Gestalt I only start 1 level behind, combined with the extra XP of lower levels and the 10% boost from Item Familliar I'll more than catch up though).

Though sadly, I never figured out how additional feats through an intelligent item is supposed to work.

Then for spells, Heroics would need me to have the ability to cast it, and even so it's a temporary feat. :/
For the chaos shuffle, I'm not even sure how it works. I just noticed it was a spell, not a feat, pointed it out and the person was like "Herp a derp".

Post that Ninja'd mine highlighted that the Chaos Shuffle turns out to actually be the Elf thing I asked about! XD


-snip-

I'm confused, you started off saying a general good at everything character but then made me a trip expert.

Also, what is it about tripping that people love so much?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Vow of Poverty with AEG publishing and Chaos Shuffle enabled. Get an AEG witch to make a 1/week ring of chaos shuffle at caster level 1, only costs a few hundred gold(Mercantile Background gives 300). Now your level one elf has 2 flaws used up, 1 first available, 4 racial available, 1 VoP available. Yay 6 feats first level! Take one level of wizard for a 7th and the rest fighter for 2 feats at second and 1 feat/lvl thereafter(plus the normal every 3rd).

As to what feats are best, I am a big fan of Extra Slot, Sanctum Spell, Heighten Spell and Earth Spell together. Get two extra slots, re-write the lower level one til you have 9th, with the above shuffle, that's one 9th level spell 1/day at level 1... and you only have to dodge as many books as are at the table from the DM. Could grab a reserve feat instead of Extra Spell if you want a little more use. Also note that once you have the slot, you can re-write Earth Spell, Earth Sense and maybe Heighten Spell and Sanctum Spell(if you don't have 19 in your casting stat Sanctum makes you only need 18).

Outside of cheesy combos, I think Arcane Thesis is perhaps one of the best D&D feats such massive metamagic reduction in just one feat is well worth it for the right spell. With pathfinder included that is trumped by Spell Perfection with a persisted something or other. If you are just looking at d20 and mixing, Spycraft has Unlocked Potential(increase one skill's max ranks by 3) which can grant PrCs 3 levels earlier. I can't recall the setting, but Laborious Study can also grant early PrC entry. Tagging from 7th sea can be insanely powerful with a slew of natural attacks for its critical amplifiers.

Vow of Poverty does seem interesting.

But I've always been advised against it for the equipment loss.
Plus, something like that would make feats like Item Familiar unusable.

Also, outside of Nymphs Kiss I didn't find many exalted feats that powerful (and I know Vow of Poverty is probably being suggested for the bonus exalted feats). Are there big uses for some of the exalted feats though that I'm missing?

*Googles chaos shuffle*

Oh... so that's the elf trick I was asking about! XD

And from how it looks like it does work with Drow too! (Yea! :smallbiggrin:)

As for the spell feats, I won't argue their usefulness and given the theme of this topic you were right to suggest them.
Though it's not something for my character specifically so I leave it there.

[ArcturusV]

The reason people love it is that Tripping is about the only way for a mundane based character to do "Battlefield Control" or "Aggro Control".

The problem with DnD and people who enter the mindset of "meatshields" and what not for character tactics is... outside of something like Dark Speech, maybe Knight's Challenge, both not exactly automatically successful, there is no way to force an enemy to attack you instead of going "Hm... I could swing my sword at this guy who can probably take it... or I can swing it at that guy in a robe and pointy hat and kill him outright..."

Tripping is the only way a Fighter can Aggro Control. You trip someone. They have to spend their movement action to stand up. Meaning they can only attack an enemy that is adjacent. Or waste their standard action to try and move into a better position, which with a standard tripper build will trigger an AoO where you just trip them again.

Not to mention Tripping is the only maneuver I can think of which also allows you to make a standard attack after a success. Well... Overrun with Trample as well I suppose. But yeah. If I disarm someone, it's not like I get to attack them for free afterwards.

So that's why people love Tripping. It's the only way the Fighter can do what modern gamers think is the Fighter's Job "Keep enemies off the squishies who are doing the REAL work".

[GilesTheCleric]

You can use some exalted feats to other tricks, but the ones that I know of are all for casters.

Looks like you already found out about tripping and elves/chaos shuffle. I would note that fighters can also do some field control with fear stacking if you're not into tripping. I also outlined a non-tripping battlefield control build for a fighter I was making in my Reach Weapons thread.

You can use heroics yourself with UMD, or you can find a friendly caster with reach spell. Most things in life are fleeting; there's nothing wrong with feats being the same. Besides, it's easy to give it a 24+ hour duration if it's really necessary.

The last thing for "more" feats that I can think of are the retraining rules from PHB2. Swap out old feats for new feats. Chaos shuffle, but mundane.

[lsfreak]

Tripping is also a touch attack (waaay more likely to hit) with a followup attack while they're tripped (waaay more likely to hit), and they have to choose between taking a -4 penalty on any attacks, or trying to stand up (another attack versus -4AC and they cannot make a full attack).

Tripping makes your attacks much more likely to hit, makes your target much less able to hit back, and keeps them locked in a single place.

EDIT:
The last thing for "more" feats that I can think of are the retraining rules from PHB2. Swap out old feats for new feats. Chaos shuffle, but mundane.
Yes and no. The strength of Chaos Shuffle is the ability to retrain things like elven weapon proficiencies, Otyugh Holes*, useless feats granted by your class, or the bonus feats gained from being dedicated to an Elder Evil, which retraining can't do. (*I vaguely remember Otyugh Hole + Chaos Shuffle could be abused for unlimited feats, provided you have the time, but it's been so long I may well be forgetting something).

[Gwazi Magnum]

The reason people love it is that Tripping is about the only way for a mundane based character to do "Battlefield Control" or "Aggro Control".

The problem with DnD and people who enter the mindset of "meatshields" and what not for character tactics is... outside of something like Dark Speech, maybe Knight's Challenge, both not exactly automatically successful, there is no way to force an enemy to attack you instead of going "Hm... I could swing my sword at this guy who can probably take it... or I can swing it at that guy in a robe and pointy hat and kill him outright..."

Tripping is the only way a Fighter can Aggro Control. You trip someone. They have to spend their movement action to stand up. Meaning they can only attack an enemy that is adjacent. Or waste their standard action to try and move into a better position, which with a standard tripper build will trigger an AoO where you just trip them again.

Not to mention Tripping is the only maneuver I can think of which also allows you to make a standard attack after a success. Well... Overrun with Trample as well I suppose. But yeah. If I disarm someone, it's not like I get to attack them for free afterwards.

So that's why people love Tripping. It's the only way the Fighter can do what modern gamers think is the Fighter's Job "Keep enemies off the squishies who are doing the REAL work".

I see, though if I were to do this role I'd need a good way to handle a lot of damage... which I'm not so sure of.
In another campaign (So not the DM being discussed earlier) I had a Orc Barbarain with 18 CON (22 in rage) and with Improved Toughness so effectively HD 12 with 24 CON worth of health when fighting. Still died pretty fast.

On a tripping note though, I also found a feat called inhuman reach, which not only adds 5 ft reach but highlights that reach weapons double natural reach.

So if my natural was 5, this feat made it 10, and Tall 15, a reach weapon would make it 30.
That in itself does seem pretty powerful, but it will cost me a total of 4 feats so I'm not sure how worth it, it will be.
Though that can be solved by the Chaos Shuffle, but there might be 4 other feats that could serve me better instead.


You can use some exalted feats to other tricks, but the ones that I know of are all for casters.

Looks like you already found out about tripping and elves/chaos shuffle. I would note that fighters can also do some field control with fear stacking if you're not into tripping. I also outlined a non-tripping battlefield control build for a fighter I was making in my Reach Weapons thread.

You can use heroics yourself with UMD, or you can find a friendly caster with reach spell. Most things in life are fleeting; there's nothing wrong with feats being the same. Besides, it's easy to give it a 24+ hour duration if it's really necessary.

The last thing for "more" feats that I can think of are the retraining rules from PHB2. Swap out old feats for new feats. Chaos shuffle, but mundane.

So exalted feats probably wouldn't help me much then.

My worry with the UMD thing is one of the things highlighted with no magic was not to try to abuse wands as a loop hole. Also the DM has a liking of stripping gear from players (which has me debating item familiar still), but means also if the wands gone, the feats gone.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Tripping is also a touch attack (waaay more likely to hit) with a followup attack while they're tripped (waaay more likely to hit), and they have to choose between taking a -4 penalty on any attacks, or trying to stand up (another attack versus -4AC and they cannot make a full attack).

Tripping makes your attacks much more likely to hit, makes your target much less able to hit back, and keeps them locked in a single place.

EDIT:
Yes and no. The strength of Chaos Shuffle is the ability to retrain things like elven weapon proficiencies, Otyugh Holes*, useless feats granted by your class, or the bonus feats gained from being dedicated to an Elder Evil, which retraining can't do. (*I vaguely remember Otyugh Hole + Chaos Shuffle could be abused for unlimited feats, provided you have the time, but it's been so long I may well be forgetting something).

Chaos Shuffle replaces class feats too? o.O

*Takes another look at martial rogue, fighter, monk etc.

If this is true, this extends my question true, which classes given a ton of extra feats may they be good or bad?

[Ruethgar]

Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos can replace the crappy exalted feats from VoP and the fighter feats and the racial feats which is why I suggested elf, VoP, fighter, though I think I would prefer the rogue with that ACF.

Here are the two spells. Embrace (http://dndtools.eu/spells/fiendish-codex-i-hordes-of-the-abyss--66/embrace-the-dark-chaos--1163/), Shun (http://dndtools.eu/spells/fiendish-codex-i-hordes-of-the-abyss--66/shun-the-dark-chaos--1146/). The wording is clear that you can replace any feat you have. Whether or not you were originally able to decide what that feat was is irrelevant.

Edit: The loss of magical items through VoP is a massive drawback, you can still get some benefit from on use items through a familiar owning them and using them for you(such as your ring of chaos shuffle), but generally it depends on class and how much you value feats over bonuses.

[lsfreak]

Chaos Shuffle replaces class feats too? o.O

*Takes another look at martial rogue, fighter, monk etc.

If this is true, this extends my question true, which classes given a ton of extra feats may they be good or bad?

Do keep in mind that chaos shuffling is one of those things that's borderline TO. Most DM's may allow you to switch one or two feats, but there comes a point where it crosses the line.

That said, front-loaded feat classes that I remember off the top of my head:
Cloistered Clerics (3 feats at first level, through combination of picking domains that grant bonus feats + trading domains for Devotion feats)
Monk (2 bonus feats first level, one second level)
Ranger (three feats over the first three levels, Champion of the Wild ACF at 4th level to trade spellcasting for an additional feat)
Bear Totem Barbarian (3 bonus feats over the first 3 levels, trade IUD at 4th level for a feat from Sandstorm)

EDIT: And in case it wasn't clear, dedicating yourself to an Elder Evil grants you five bonus feats over your 20 levels (1st, 5/10/15/20). Theoretically there's nothing stopping you from shuffling your feats away and then re-dedicating yourself to another Elder Evil, gaining all the feats back, and re-shuffling those, ad nauseum, but that's far into cheesy territory.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos can replace the crappy exalted feats from VoP and the fighter feats and the racial feats which is why I suggested elf, VoP, fighter, though I think I would prefer the rogue with that ACF.

Here are the two spells. Embrace (http://dndtools.eu/spells/fiendish-codex-i-hordes-of-the-abyss--66/embrace-the-dark-chaos--1163/), Shun (http://dndtools.eu/spells/fiendish-codex-i-hordes-of-the-abyss--66/shun-the-dark-chaos--1146/). The wording is clear that you can replace any feat you have. Whether or not you were originally able to decide what that feat was is irrelevant.

Edit: The loss of magical items through VoP is a massive drawback, you can still get some benefit from on use items through a familiar owning them and using them for you(such as your ring of chaos shuffle), but generally it depends on class and how much you value feats over bonuses.

The Vow of Poverty is tempting now still, but the rules state you can't abuse it by having someone else hold stuff for you nor can you use any expensive items or 'borrow' them.

With how feats I can pump out atm through Gestalt and Elf or Drow (I'm thinking Elf, but it only has one more feat over the Drow) I should have more than enough anyway's. Expecially if I go mutli-class extreme.

Though, this whole dark chaos/shun chaos thing... now will probably have me drop the Generic classes (Mostly) and just go to other classes extreme. This leads me to two main questions now

1. What Classes give the most feats in the least amount of levels? Doesn't matter what the feats are.
2. What the cheapest way to make an item that simulates the dark chaos/shun chaos spells? Because I know the total was 1/week as totaled to somewhere around 300 gp. But I have no idea how that worked since usually an item with the spell should be in the 1000's of 1000's.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Do keep in mind that chaos shuffling is one of those things that's borderline TO. Most DM's may allow you to switch one or two feats, but there comes a point where it crosses the line.

That said, front-loaded feat classes that I remember off the top of my head:
Cloistered Clerics (3 feats at first level, through combination of picking domains that grant bonus feats + trading domains for Devotion feats)
Monk (2 bonus feats first level, one second level)
Ranger (three feats over the first three levels, Champion of the Wild ACF at 4th level to trade spellcasting for an additional feat)
Bear Totem Barbarian (3 bonus feats over the first 3 levels, trade IUD at 4th level for a feat from Sandstorm)

EDIT: And in case it wasn't clear, dedicating yourself to an Elder Evil grants you five bonus feats over your 20 levels (1st, 5/10/15/20). Theoretically there's nothing stopping you from shuffling your feats away and then re-dedicating yourself to another Elder Evil, gaining all the feats back, and re-shuffling those, ad nauseum, but that's far into cheesy territory.

Cleric I'd have to avoid due to the DM ruling of it disabling my ability to Gestalt, but the others sound awesome.

[Ruethgar]

The AEG witch can theoretically cast all druid and sorcerer spells at caster level 1, however highly unlikely. There is a feat called mage hunter as I recall, that lowers your caster level by 4. Sanctum Spell lowers the spell level by one outside the sanctum. So 7*(-3)*2000*1.5*2=(-126,000) for an on use effect that doesn't use a slot is about as cheap as they come.

Without the mage hunter, give it on use charges once per week. The charges per day divider becomes awesome. Seven days divided into one is about 0.14 charges per day. Divide that by 5 to get 35, that is what you divide the end cost by. (7*1*1000*1.5)/35=300 gold. But of course this requires the AEG witch so not likely to be usable.

Regular cost with mage hunter and sanctum by a wizard would be: (7*12*1000*1.5)/35=3600 still cheap as hell for the effect.

Edit: Also, you would not have your familiar hold the items for you nor borrow them. Have an animal totem as a deity and a similar animal as a familiar. Tithe a portion of your wealth to what is obviously an avatar of your deity, I mean it is so smart and has magical abilities, surely your cat familiar must be an avatar of Bast. Beg the familiar to grant you new knowledge in exchange for old with his magic ring. Do note that you can have the ring made at level one with a wealth feat and give it to your familiar as an offering before you shuffle the vow in.

Almost forgot, if you use the aforementioned method to get 9th level spells for 8th level instead, you can make items at caster level minimum 4. (7*4*1000*1.5)/35=1200 gold, again very cheap for the effect.

[kulosle]

So Natural spell needs to be mentioned. It just shouldn't exist. Mainly because it makes Skill focus (basket weaving) so good. Leadership is obviously broken as well. Mindsight, craft contingency spell, and to be honest most feats that only helps spell casters.

[Xervous]

I'm confused, you started off saying a general good at everything character but then made me a trip expert.

Also, what is it about tripping that people love so much?

Hello, note that the tripping was also side by side a customizable skill set. You'll have at least five skills of your choice MAXED in addition to more than a dozen that will be usable.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I'm not certain I understand the Sanctum spell cheese here, by my reading spells cast in your sanctum count as one level higher than normal and when outside they are cast at their normal level. Could you please explain that for me?

[eggynack]

As another note on tripping, knock down is a thing. It gives you a free trip attempt after an attack that deals ten or more damage. If you've build your character right, you should always deal ten or more damage. Thus, you hit someone in the face, trip them, hit them again from improved trip, and that's all one iterative. If your first hit failed to trip, the next one has a shot at it. If your first hit succeeded, your subsequent iteratives are against a prone opponent. Additionally, if your opponent wants to hit you, they're probably going to need to get up, which gives you an attack of opportunity. If you have enough reach, you can hold your opponent on the edge of it, and force him to provoke AoO's if he approaches you. Finally, you can pick it up, practically for free, on a barbarian. With wolf totem, you can completely bypass the need for combat expertise. Alternatively, you can take wolf berserker to fulfill the prerequisite, and head into runescarred berserker.

[TuggyNE]

I'm not certain I understand the Sanctum spell cheese here, by my reading spells cast in your sanctum count as one level higher than normal and when outside they are cast at their normal level. Could you please explain that for me?

No, when outside they're cast a level lower than normal. Inside: N+1; outside: N-1.

It's a sad thing that the best use of Sanctum Spell is with its penalty.

[Gwazi Magnum]

The AEG witch can theoretically cast all druid and sorcerer spells at caster level 1, however highly unlikely. There is a feat called mage hunter as I recall, that lowers your caster level by 4. Sanctum Spell lowers the spell level by one outside the sanctum. So 7*(-3)*2000*1.5*2=(-126,000) for an on use effect that doesn't use a slot is about as cheap as they come.

Without the mage hunter, give it on use charges once per week. The charges per day divider becomes awesome. Seven days divided into one is about 0.14 charges per day. Divide that by 5 to get 35, that is what you divide the end cost by. (7*1*1000*1.5)/35=300 gold. But of course this requires the AEG witch so not likely to be usable.

Regular cost with mage hunter and sanctum by a wizard would be: (7*12*1000*1.5)/35=3600 still cheap as hell for the effect.

Edit: Also, you would not have your familiar hold the items for you nor borrow them. Have an animal totem as a deity and a similar animal as a familiar. Tithe a portion of your wealth to what is obviously an avatar of your deity, I mean it is so smart and has magical abilities, surely your cat familiar must be an avatar of Bast. Beg the familiar to grant you new knowledge in exchange for old with his magic ring. Do note that you can have the ring made at level one with a wealth feat and give it to your familiar as an offering before you shuffle the vow in.

Almost forgot, if you use the aforementioned method to get 9th level spells for 8th level instead, you can make items at caster level minimum 4. (7*4*1000*1.5)/35=1200 gold, again very cheap for the effect.

I'm thinking for:

1) Fairness sake against the party members who don't optimize
2) DM getting angry at the fact I'm constantly using such a trick in the campaign
3) Not needing to stack up a ton of different classes and tons of tracking for the sake of feat abuse

That I will use this trick, but only with the Drow's starting three weapon proficiencies and go with Generic Warrior and Generic Expert Classes. That way the only time I use this trick is during character creation and it's not overly game breaking.

But then I'd assume I can get it for 300 gold which is awesome :)

Note for those saying 'Go Elf, it's one more feat'

There are a few reasons I'm going with Drow...

1. With the combination of LA buy-off and Gestalt the LA is of minimal concern
2. I like the boosts to Intelligence and Charisma
3. Flavour, I want to play a Drow character
4. Natural Spell Resistance, very useful


As another note on tripping, knock down is a thing. It gives you a free trip attempt after an attack that deals ten or more damage. If you've build your character right, you should always deal ten or more damage. Thus, you hit someone in the face, trip them, hit them again from improved trip, and that's all one iterative. If your first hit failed to trip, the next one has a shot at it. If your first hit succeeded, your subsequent iteratives are against a prone opponent. Additionally, if your opponent wants to hit you, they're probably going to need to get up, which gives you an attack of opportunity. If you have enough reach, you can hold your opponent on the edge of it, and force him to provoke AoO's if he approaches you. Finally, you can pick it up, practically for free, on a barbarian. With wolf totem, you can completely bypass the need for combat expertise. Alternatively, you can take wolf berserker to fulfill the prerequisite, and head into runescarred berserker.

I got a bit lost once you went into Barbarians.

But from what I do understand, Trip means I can hit enemies more easily, keep them in place and gain a ton of bonus attacks against them?

[ArcturusV]

It's an ACF for Barbarians where instead of... what was it, the move speed boost, you get Improved Trip at level 1. It's a trade most people if they are aware of it are very, very happy to make. That way you don't have to take Combat Expertise, so you don't need to have a 13 Int. And the later Trip Feats all require Improved Trip, not Combat Expertise.

[eggynack]

I got a bit lost once you went into Barbarians.

But from what I do understand, Trip means I can hit enemies more easily, keep them in place and gain a ton of bonus attacks against them?


I suppose, yeah. I may have put it in a confusing manner. The big gain from barbarians, in terms of tripping, is the ability to use wolf totem to trade out uncanny dodge for improved trip, and do so without prerequisites. This obviates the need for intelligence, and the combat expertise feat tax. Knock down is, as I mentioned, a real all star in the build. You get a free trip attack after you deal ten damage, and a free attack after you trip, because of improved trip. The best part is, none of this requires much in the way of investment. You get improved trip, pounce, and whirling frenzy, all from two levels of barbarian. It's really all that any melee build could desire.

It works effectively as an adjunct to the shock trooper build I posted earlier. After two levels of barbarian, I'd usually go into two levels of fighter, so that I can really push the feat chain. You're effectively trying to gain two high power combat styles at once, which can be expensive. It's doable though. As feats, you want power attack, knock down, improved bull rush (for shock trooper), and shock trooper. Shock trooper happens at +6 BAB, so you have a bit of time to get to that point. You can also toss on combat reflexes, extra rage, EWP: spiked chain, and maybe the prerequisites for runescarred berserker, if that's your aim. I threw together the beginnings of a pretty good build over on the now closed anti-mage thread. I don't know how the whole thing works with gestalt though.

[eggynack]

It's an ACF for Barbarians where instead of... what was it, the move speed boost, you get Improved Trip at level 1. It's a trade most people if they are aware of it are very, very happy to make. That way you don't have to take Combat Expertise, so you don't need to have a 13 Int. And the later Trip Feats all require Improved Trip, not Combat Expertise.
You trade it for uncanny dodge, and it happens at level two rather than one. I think the trade you're thinking of is spirit lion totem. That one trades fast movement for pounce at first level. Wolf totem is notable because it's the only good totem that you can take alongside spirit lion, because all the others, apart from horse, trade fast movement.

[ArcturusV]

Ah, mixing it up. That's what I get for just thinking instead of checking.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Posts below got be debating using Generic again (Damn you forum and you're promise of amazing martial power :p)

Not including spell casting classes in order to keep with Gestalt... I'm looking at the following right now that can give me feats I can use the Chaos Rising trick on...

1. Fighter 2 = 2 feats
2. Martial Rogue 2 = 2 feats
3. Monk 2 = 3 feats
4. Ranger 4(CCoW ACF) = 4 Feats
5. Bear Totem Barbarian(With variant that trades away rage for favored enemy and combat style) 3= 4 feats

This adds up to a total of 13 levels, where if starting at Gestalt 8 covers 13 of 16 levels.
13 of 14 if I go Drow and do the LA buy-off. (1 LA put into each class chain, each bought off).

I might switch from Drow from Elf if someone can sell me enough on it.

But more importantly atm I'm looking for more classes than can give in more feats (Rather than Marital Rogue and Fighter where after this point it's 1 feat per 2 levels... *yawn*).

Are there maybe races or subraces that provides more feats than the elf does?

Essentially, the goal of this character (Since it's a martial heavy campaign player wise) is to be feat heavy and use those feats to pick up the majority of his tricks, abilities and such. Become an all around skilled and powerful character.

List of considered feats (So you have a better idea of my goals)


Bolded = Heavily Considering
Italized = Eh
Underlined = Looks cool, but still kind of unsure of either how it works or how effective it can truly be

-Dark Speech
-Mark of the Dauntless
-Mindsight
-Shape Soulmend
-Nymph's Kiss (Concern here is relationship description and if DM allowed and/or how it can be RP'd out. It also leaves a feat dependent on an NPC)
-Keen Intellect
-Extra Followers
-Leadership
-Weapon Finesse
-Improved Trip (+Other Trip feats)
-[I]Daylight Adaption - Only if I go Drow, need it so DM can't go "THE SUN BLINDS YOU! MUA HA HA HA!"
-Apprentice/Mentor
-Versatile Performer
-Improved Cohort
-Bind Vestige (and Improved)
-Craven - Unsure of sneak attack, it's been proven to be unreliable at times and many enemies counter it. Plus sneak attack = Less feats
-Waterspawn
-Starspawn - Flying is cool, but unsure how useful 'This' feats flying will be
-Abberration Blood (Needed for any 'spawn' feat)
-Inhuman Reach (+5 reach and reach weapons double my natural reach? So with Tall I have 30 reach? Uh-huh)
-Darkstalker
-Martial Study (Needed for Shadow Blade)
-Martial Stance (Needed for Shadow Blade)
Edit: Looked at it, One Level of Swordsage not only would let me bypass both of these (which I should of counted as +2 feats from the start *herp derp* but also gives me Weapon Focus which I can also use as a feat)
-Shadow Blade
-Willing Deformity (Needed for Tall)
-Deformity (Tall) - +5 reach... mhm
-Education - If not going Generic, I need this for Knowledge Devotion
-Knowledge Devotion
-Improved Toughness
-Two Weapon Fighting - If it works well with the trip attacks
-Item Familliar - Awesome, but worried about DM being a **** and taking the item away constantly. So looking for ways to make the item permanently part of my character. If that's pulled off and DM still finds a way to remove it from my guy, I'll call him on his bull **** and leave... he's pulled lots of bull **** before.
-Animal Cohort
-Dragon Cohort


Edit: Also, any really good suggested skill tricks or investments of minimal skill points? Because the mix of Rogue levels and classes with 6 + Int Mod will make it so I can't outright master 8 + Int Mod skills and will have some spare points wandering around.


It's an ACF for Barbarians where instead of... what was it, the move speed boost, you get Improved Trip at level 1. It's a trade most people if they are aware of it are very, very happy to make. That way you don't have to take Combat Expertise, so you don't need to have a 13 Int. And the later Trip Feats all require Improved Trip, not Combat Expertise.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.


I suppose, yeah. I may have put it in a confusing manner. The big gain from barbarians, in terms of tripping, is the ability to use wolf totem to trade out uncanny dodge for improved trip, and do so without prerequisites. This obviates the need for intelligence, and the combat expertise feat tax. Knock down is, as I mentioned, a real all star in the build. You get a free trip attack after you deal ten damage, and a free attack after you trip, because of improved trip. The best part is, none of this requires much in the way of investment. You get improved trip, pounce, and whirling frenzy, all from two levels of barbarian. It's really all that any melee build could desire.

It works effectively as an adjunct to the shock trooper build I posted earlier. After two levels of barbarian, I'd usually go into two levels of fighter, so that I can really push the feat chain. You're effectively trying to gain two high power combat styles at once, which can be expensive. It's doable though. As feats, you want power attack, knock down, improved bull rush (for shock trooper), and shock trooper. Shock trooper happens at +6 BAB, so you have a bit of time to get to that point. You can also toss on combat reflexes, extra rage, EWP: spiked chain, and maybe the prerequisites for runescarred berserker, if that's your aim. I threw together the beginnings of a pretty good build over on the now closed anti-mage thread. I don't know how the whole thing works with gestalt though.

So I'm able to take this with Lion Totem? I thought I could only ever pick one...

(Damn it, now you guys have me debating between more balanced/fair generic class build and optimized mutli-class out the wazzoo build for feats).

Also are you saying if I make a successful trip attack that does over 10 damage I have 2 extra attacks?
1 from over 10 damage and 1 from a feat?

So if say I had 4 attacks with full attack, that could potentially multiply to 12?

[eggynack]

So I'm able to take this with Lion Totem? I thought I could only ever pick one...

(Damn it, now you guys have me debating between more balanced/fair generic class build and optimized mutli-class out the wazzoo build for feats).

Also are you saying if I make a successful trip attack that does over 10 damage I have 2 extra attacks?
1 from over 10 damage and 1 from a feat?

So if say I had 4 attacks with full attack, that could potentially multiply to 12?
You can take wolf totem with spirit lion totem from complete champion. The trade offs don't overlap at all. For knock down, the order goes thusly: you hit the opponent regular style. If the attack deals ten damage, you get a free trip attempt. Then, improved trip kicks in. Improved trip gives you a free attack on a successful trip. You could get 12 hits in if there are four separate opponents standing around, because subsequent attacks on a prone opponent don't give you any tripping power. With only one opponent, you're really maxing out at 6 hits. Additionally, the middle hit of any iterative is necessarily a trip attack. You should also look into whirling frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ). It's pretty sweet in general.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You can take wolf totem with spirit lion totem from complete champion. The trade offs don't overlap at all. For knock down, the order goes thusly: you hit the opponent regular style. If the attack deals ten damage, you get a free trip attempt. Then, improved trip kicks in. Improved trip gives you a free attack on a successful trip. You could get 12 hits in if there are four separate opponents standing around, because subsequent attacks on a prone opponent don't give you any tripping power. With only one opponent, you're really maxing out at 6 hits. Additionally, the middle hit of any iterative is necessarily a trip attack. You should also look into whirling frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ). It's pretty sweet in general.

Wait...

Let's pretend I have BAB +5 so I only got one attack atm.
(If some of the feats suggested require a higher BAB let's just ignore the requirement for the sake of this example).

I attack the enemy. It does more than 10 damage so I gain an additional attack. When he hits the ground where is my third attack coming from?

@Whirling Frenzy: Interesting, I like extra attacks. :P

[eggynack]

Wait...

Let's pretend I have BAB +5 so I only got one attack atm.
(If some of the feats suggested require a higher BAB let's just ignore the requirement for the sake of this example).

I attack the enemy. It does more than 10 damage so I gain an additional attack. When he hits the ground where is my third attack coming from?

@Whirling Frenzy: Interesting, I like extra attacks. :P
The second attack is a trip attempt. It doesn't do damage; it just trips. Tripping is a thing you generally want to do though, so it's a good thing. You hit your opponent for ten, you get a trip, and then you hit your opponent again. You should probably just read the feat in question (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown).

[Gwazi Magnum]

The second attack is a trip attempt. It doesn't do damage; it just trips. Tripping is a thing you generally want to do though, so it's a good thing. You hit your opponent for ten, you get a trip, and then you hit your opponent again. You should probably just read the feat in question (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown).

Oh, I see.
That clarifies things.
Thanks! :)

[Kelb_Panthera]

True, and honestly I completely forgot about that! XD

The 4 level investment seems a bit steep though.
Though I might still get it since I'm considering a 2 level dip into the class any ways.

However, in terms of Paladins and Feats, is there a kind of feat or something I can pick up to lose my Aura of Good or make it so the aura doesn't give away my alignment automatically?

I don't know if you're still interested but I think it's worth noting that the paladin's aura ability doesn't make the aura automatically detectable to all creatures; just stronger when the paladin is subject to detect good.

If you're still worried about hiding it though, there's a feat in Secrets of Sarlona; mind mask; that allows you to conceal your alignment (by making it appear neutral) and any magical/psionic ability you have. It's a psionic feat though, so you'll need to come up with a pp or two. Hidden talent (sidebar in XPH) is good for that.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I don't know if you're still interested but I think it's worth noting that the paladin's aura ability doesn't make the aura automatically detectable to all creatures; just stronger when the paladin is subject to detect good.

If you're still worried about hiding it though, there's a feat in Secrets of Sarlona; mind mask; that allows you to conceal your alignment (by making it appear neutral) and any magical/psionic ability you have. It's a psionic feat though, so you'll need to come up with a pp or two. Hidden talent (sidebar in XPH) is good for that.

Very nice... I'll probably pick that up if I go Paladin.

Though, I see nothing about it needing power points.
I'm guessing it's because it's labeled as a Psionic feat but I don't remember a rule saying you need pp to take a psionic feat. It's that normally the feats make use of them so they're useless without pp.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Very nice... I'll probably pick that up if I go Paladin.

Though, I see nothing about it needing power points.
I'm guessing it's because it's labeled as a Psionic feat but I don't remember a rule saying you need pp to take a psionic feat. It's that normally the feats make use of them so they're useless without pp.

All psionic feats require that the character taking them be a psionic creature. The most common way for a creature to become psionic is to have a pool of PP derived from race, feat, or class. Technically a psi-like ability would work too but those are harder to come by than a PP pool.

To the best of my knowledge, almost no psionic feats actually burn PP's in their use but most -do- require that you either maintain or expend your psionic focus to activate them.

[Gwazi Magnum]

All psionic feats require that the character taking them be a psionic creature. The most common way for a creature to become psionic is to have a pool of PP derived from race, feat, or class. Technically a psi-like ability would work too but those are harder to come by than a PP pool.

To the best of my knowledge, almost no psionic feats actually burn PP's in their use but most -do- require that you either maintain or expend your psionic focus to activate them.

Ah, thanks for that clarification them.

Also I should probably ask, is there a feat that gives someone telepathy so I can get the Mindsight feat through a means other than permanent telepathy with another character?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not -one-, that I'm aware of, but two in combination can get you telepathy. Shape soulmeld (shedu crown) and open least chakra (crown) both from magic of incarnum. Takes up the body slot for magical helmets though.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Not -one-, that I'm aware of, but two in combination can get you telepathy. Shape soulmeld (shedu crown) and open least chakra (crown) both from magic of incarnum. Takes up the body slot for magical helmets though.

Why would I need the chakra for that? Shoulldn't the soulmeld be enough?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unfortunately, no. Without being bound to a chakra the shedu crown only makes you immune to bull-rushes and provides a bonus on saves Vs mind-affecting effects.

It grants telepathy when bound to the crown, the ability to shift back and forth between the material and ethereal planes when bound to the heart, and a trample attack when bound to the totemist's totem chakra.

Binding to the crown takes up the slot of magical helmets and hats while binding to the heart takes up the slot of magical shirts and vests. Binding to the totem doesn't interfere with the placement of magic items.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Unfortunately, no. Without being bound to a chakra the shedu crown only makes you immune to bull-rushes and provides a bonus on saves Vs mind-affecting effects.

It grants telepathy when bound to the crown, the ability to shift back and forth between the material and ethereal planes when bound to the heart, and a trample attack when bound to the totemist's totem chakra.

Binding to the crown takes up the slot of magical helmets and hats while binding to the heart takes up the slot of magical shirts and vests. Binding to the totem doesn't interfere with the placement of magic items.

*Looks them over in more detail*

Oh I see how it works now...
I normally haven't that much useful headgear anyway's so this should work. :)

Thanks.

Other question for anyone able to answer: Is there a way to make your Item familiar a part of you? Like a part of your body that cannot be removed without killing you?

[Kazyan]

Make your item familiar a Gemstone of Fortification (see Draconomicon) and get it embedded like it's supposed to be.

[Kelb_Panthera]

*Looks them over in more detail*

Oh I see how it works now...
I normally haven't that much useful headgear anyway's so this should work. :)

Thanks.

Other question for anyone able to answer: Is there a way to make your Item familiar a part of you? Like a part of your body that cannot be removed without killing you?

Get the strong-arms warforged graft (one of the eberron supplements) and have your item familiar-to-be manufactured as a warforged component. Implant it in your arm and it can't be taken away unless you're killed.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Make your item familiar a Gemstone of Fortification (see Draconomicon) and get it embedded like it's supposed to be.

Managed to get it's details online, but I can't find it in the Draconomicon when I look under magic items... :/

Though, the cheapest is 3000k plus a wish spell.

Could a level 8 character be able to afford this at the start?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Get the strong-arms warforged graft (one of the eberron supplements) and have your item familiar-to-be manufactured as a warforged component. Implant it in your arm and it can't be taken away unless you're killed.

I like the idea, but the requires me to be warforged and that means 4 feats less than elf... :/

Though Warforged does gain enough benefit's I'd consider it.

But how would a warforged be explained to have stuff like Telepathy, Mindsight and Dark Speech? That would be an interesting backstory :P

[Kazyan]

A limited wish would cost 2700 gold, per spellcasting and services. The total is 5700. Not cheapo, but well within budget.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I like the idea, but the requires me to be warforged and that means 4 feats less than elf... :/

Though Warforged does gain enough benefit's I'd consider it.

But how would a warforged be explained to have stuff like Telepathy, Mindsight and Dark Speech? That would be an interesting backstory :P

You misunderstand. The strong-arm graft replaces one of your elf's arms with a warforged arm. (maybe both, I haven't looked it up recently). This allows you to make use of warforged components even though you're not a warforged yourself.

[Gwazi Magnum]

A limited wish would cost 2700 gold, per spellcasting and services. The total is 5700. Not cheapo, but well within budget.

Thanks, defelently sounds like a worthwhile investment :)


You misunderstand. The strong-arm graft replaces one of your elf's arms with a warforged arm. (maybe both, I haven't looked it up recently). This allows you to make use of warforged components even though you're not a warforged yourself.

O_O You can do that?

Damn, I learn new things about d&d everyday...
*Goes to read more into this*

[Kelb_Panthera]

Thanks, defelently sounds like a worthwhile investment :)



O_O You can do that?

Damn, I learn new things about d&d everyday...
*Goes to read more into this*

After a half-hearted attempt to look it up myself, it appears that warforged grafts are in faiths of eberron.

Get used to it. I've been on this forum since 2010 and I -still- learn new things from time to time.

[Gwazi Magnum]

After a half-hearted attempt to look it up myself, it appears that warforged grafts are in faiths of eberron.

Get used to it. I've been on this forum since 2010 and I -still- learn new things from time to time.

Thanks for the book location, I was having trouble finding it.

*evil grin* This should be awesome... I'm really liking the idea of these grafts.

It's crazy how much they have out for d&d 3.5 and how even playing it for years there's stuff you can miss.

[Thurbane]

As for how to get more feats, not sure if they've already been mentioned, but here are two good sources:

Lists of Stuff (Bonus Feats) (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff)
Handbook of the Exotic Practice of Feat Binding (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4099.new#new)

[Gwazi Magnum]

As for how to get more feats, not sure if they've already been mentioned, but here are two good sources:

Lists of Stuff (Bonus Feats) (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff)
Handbook of the Exotic Practice of Feat Binding (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4099.new#new)

No those weren't mentioned yet.

Thanks :)

[Zetapup]

I haven't seen the zhentarim soldier acf for fighter mentioned yet. It gives a bonus feat at 3rd level you could feat shuffle away. Location is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a).

The zhentarim fighter substitutions can make for a decent fear build if that's something you're interested in.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I haven't seen the zhentarim soldier acf for fighter mentioned yet. It gives a bonus feat at 3rd level you could feat shuffle away. Location is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a).

The zhentarim fighter substitutions can make for a decent fear build if that's something you're interested in.

I can't seem to find the ACF through that link.

[eggynack]

I can't seem to find the ACF through that link.
You have to download the relevant part. The link is the "download now" majig in the first section.