(PF) Challenge Rating

[Slylizard]

Hey guys, new to DMing and having issues with working out CR and what my players should be able to handle. Haven't gone over the top yet, but I don't really feel that I'm challenging them enough, and I really want to in my next fight.

I've got the following PCs, and I think they would be APL7:
lvl 5 Summoner (+Eidolon)
lvl 3 Magus (cohort of summoner, using a watered down leadership feat)
lvl 5 Fighter
lvl 5 Witch
lvl 5 Bard
lvl 5 Ninja

I'm looking at throwing them up against the following:
4 x lvl 6 Fighters
lvl 8 Cleric

Now, I think (and may be failing) that this encounter would be a CR11 encounter? Just wanted a hand seeing if I'm on the right track.

[Humble Master]

They will get murdered. 4 6th level Fighters can easily take down a 5th level Fighter and Ninja + whatever you Summoner can throw at them. Also these fighter's will have a 8th Level Cleric backing them up with 4th level spells. The CR of this encounter wont matter because unless the PC's have stupidly high stats and get luck they will be killed.

[Slylizard]

Ok, that's a good start, so I obviously need to tone it down then. How much is the obvious next question.

[Squirrel_Dude]

It will probably be a fair, and extremely bloody fight on both sides.

[Humble Master]

It will probably be a fair, and extremely bloody fight on both sides.
It won't be a fair fight. The PCs, while they have more spells, don't have access to 4th level magic (unless they buy a lot of scrolls/wands before the fight). 4th level spells, combined with 4 fighters who can easily outmatch any of the PC's martial characters is a recipe for disaster. The PC's, if they are smart and willing to spend all of their once per day resources plus some extra resources can win this fight, but they will take loses and have to immediately rest.

Remember, the PC's are, as a rule of thumb, supposed to be able to take on 3-5 encounters every day and expect to turn a profit.

I would tone it down to a 4 level 4 or 5 Fighters and a Level 6 Cleric.

[Squirrel_Dude]

It won't be a fair fight. The PCs, while they have more spells, don't have access to 4th level magic (unless they buy a lot of scrolls/wands before the fight). 4th level spells, combined with 4 fighters who can easily outmatch any of the PC's martial characters is a recipe for disaster. The PC's, if they are smart and willing to spend all of their once per day resources plus some extra resources can win this fight, but they will take loses and have to immediately rest.

Remember, the PC's are, as a rule of thumb, supposed to be able to take on 3-5 encounters every day and expect to turn a profit.

I would tone it down to a 4 level 4 or 5 Fighters and a Level 6 Cleric.The fighters are probably going to go last in the initiative, meaning that the ninja and magus are going to be able to get some easy flat-footed attack on them (see 1 dead fighter). The witch will probably be able to slumber 1 of them.

That makes it a 6 on 3 fight. I agree that PCs are going to die, but they'll probably come out on top, if only barely. There's just too much damage being thrown around in the fight for things not to die. I agree the cleric should be brought down 1 to 2 levels.

This is also probably only a good fight if it's the only one for the day. There will probably be some serious scars.

[Keneth]

Why would they be APL 7th? A level 5 party of 5 characters is APL 5th. Your encounter is just over EL 11th, which is way beyond epic difficulty for your group. I'm not saying they won't be able to handle it, our group has encounters like that all the time, but we're an extremely experienced group of players who are used to tackling these situations. I suggest you aim for something like EL 8, which is a 6th level cleric, and two 4th level fighters, fully equipped. You can add another couple of 4th level fighters to raise the EL to 9, but depending on how well you tailor the fight, you can expect casualties in the players' group.

[Slylizard]

Why would they be APL 7th? A level 5 party of 5 characters is APL 5th. Your encounter is just over EL 11th, which is way beyond epic difficulty for your group. I'm not saying they won't be able to handle it, our group has encounters like that all the time, but we're an extremely experienced group of players who are used to tackling these situations. I suggest you aim for something like EL 8, which is a 6th level cleric, and two 4th level fighters, fully equipped. You can add another couple of 4th level fighters to raise the EL to 9, but depending on how well you tailor the fight, you can expect casualties in the players' group.

I suppose counting the magus and eidolon in the APL was wrong then? That's how I got to APL7. We've been playing together for quite a few years, this is just my first go in the chair, 2 of the party (summoner/ninja) are both quite good optimisers and help optimise the rest of the group (either directly, or via choosing their buffs).

In relation to the other comments, unless they do something very stupid this is the only encounter they'll have that day, so I'm not concerned about them needing to hold back resources (they'll be aware of this).

When the same group was level 4 they stomped through a lvl 6 rogue and his cohort of 6 lvl 4 rogues, so I figured I needed to up the ante a fair bit to give them a challenge.

In general though I think I might simply drop all enemies one level and see how it goes... though I feel like the fighter and eidolon themselves will tear up same level fighters, thus getting the group to the cleric early and making him pretty much impotent.

[TuggyNE]

I suppose counting the magus and eidolon in the APL was wrong then? That's how I got to APL7.

Yeah, those only count as part of their respective PCs. (So the party is only 5 strong characters.)

As written, the encounter would be very difficult and probably result in deaths or fleeing, as the case may be; toning it down a couple of points should make it achievable without absurd luck/massive sacrifices.

[Raven777]

Your player party is APL 5 (five 5th level characters). Summons and cohorts do not count toward APL. You start adding 1 to APL from six characters onward.

The encounter currently stands around CR 10, or APL+5. This is, literally, off the charts. The charts stop at APL+3 if I remember correctly, which is supposed to be for end of quest/arc/campaign all out boss fights.

It is important to understand that in 3.5 and PF, appropriate encounters are designed as encounters stacked in the PCs' favor. An encounter that exactly matches the PCs, for example if their similarly equipped doppelgangers were to walk out of a mirror on them, are APL+4 and at this point, who wins might as well be decided by flipping a coin. A single PC dying or getting held or paralyzed is going to turn the whole fight around and they will be routed. Don't forget, the DM walks a narrow thread : challenging the party without slaughtering it. I'm going to channel my inner Sean K. Reynolds, but the PCs are big damn heroes. The game rules are made in such a way that they are supposed to win.

My suggestion?


Epic Fight : 4x 4th lvl Fighters and 1x 5th lvl Cleric (CR 8 / APL+3) PCs might very well die on this one.
Hard Fight : 2x 4th lvl Fighters and 1x 5th lvl Cleric (CR 7 / APL+2)

In both cases, have the Cleric pre-buff the fighters with Scrolls of Heroism (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/heroism) (the 3rd level Heroism domain Divine version). They now have 50 minutes of +2 to Hit, Saves and Skill Checks and are more of a threat than their level would let on.