A quick "Anti-Stat boosts Template"?

[Scowling Dragon]

The games all assume that your PCs are wearing their cloaks of resistance, their rings of protection, and their Headbands of mental superiority.

But is there any easy way to add a template that accounts for your PCs NOT having that stuff?

[eggynack]

Technically, I think vow of poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds is what you're looking for. It gives you a bunch of stat stuff in exchange for the ability to have money. It's generally pretty far from worthwhile, as wealth by level is fantastic. It's a very suboptimal choice, though it can work on a druid if you want.

[Scowling Dragon]

As in a reverse: Something that can be applied to monsters that expect your players to have that so that they become more apropraite.....Maybe I should try it myself based off of vow of poverty.

[Flickerdart]

No. All of the monsters are theoretically based on your PCs having access to level-appropriate wealth. If you intend to simply dock all their items and throw monsters at them, consider that spellcasters will have roughly the same stats anyway, since they can replace ability score boosters with spells, AC bonuses with spells, saving throw bonuses with spells...meanwhile, poor mundanes don't even have their magic swords. So it's not just a simple matter of subtracting a certain number from every statistic.

[Scowling Dragon]

I meant pure stat boosters so PCs can instead focus on getting other items that are more fun and funky.

I donno. I just find the ability scores so core to the character, that when you make them so easily gainable It just takes away something from it all.

[eggynack]

I meant pure stat boosters so PCs can instead focus on getting other items that are more fun and funky.

I donno. I just find the ability scores so core to the character, that when you make them so easily gainable It just takes away something from it all.
Well, all you really need to do is pick a template or race that boosts stats. There's a bunch of those. I don't think there's anything that also bars you from picking up stat boosting items though. Something that specifically stops that kind of thing sounds pretty meta. In any case, different characters want different stat boosts. If you asked for a particular set of desired stat boosts, that'd be a manageable question. Unfortunately, most races and templates have an effect on stats, so it'd mostly just be a long list of nearly every race and template in the game. Additionally, if a player is taking a race or template to boost a stat, they're usually doing that in addition to a stat boosting item, rather than in lieu of one.

[Flickerdart]

I meant pure stat boosters so PCs can instead focus on getting other items that are more fun and funky.
Right, yeah. The casters can compensate for that, the mundanes can't.




I donno. I just find the ability scores so core to the character, that when you make them so easily gainable It just takes away something from it all.
At level 1, a character's ability scores matter - even a high ability score equals or exceeds the amount of ranks in a skill, and dwarfs all other bonuses to attack and damage. At level 20, the contribution of the ability score, provided that it hasn't been boosted beyond normal (like with Warhulk) or added to things multiple times, is very, very small - your BAB gives roughly double the bonus to hit and your skills have roughly twice as many ranks as the ability adds, before miscellaneous modifiers for both. If you think ability scores should matter, you should give more, not less, opportunities to increase them.

[Scowling Dragon]

My issue isn't when the item has meaning, but when EVERYBODY has to have the standard boosts in order not to get immediately slaughtered thats when I have an issue.

[Carth]

I'm skeptical of what you're trying to do. Casters will get by just fine starting with 16 in their casting stat, and it wouldn't be drastically different from normal even if they were only given the level up bonuses, and no stat boosters. It wouldn't affect a lot of the most powerful spells at all. Mundanes on the other hand, have their abilities suffer dramatically more, because their class features and primary abilities are more dependent on ability scores.

[Flickerdart]

My issue isn't when the item has meaning, but when EVERYBODY has to have the standard boosts in order not to get immediately slaughtered thats when I have an issue.
That's how a system with level gain works. If you don't increase your numbers, you fall behind. If you have a problem with scaling, I guess D&D Next is being made with you in mind.

[Scowling Dragon]

I mean like this:

If monsters scale slower, thus there will be less necessity for stat boosting items.

Though that would require touching up spells a bit. But thats generally it.

[Kamai]

I don't know of any quick templates, but I'm sure if you do some searching for Vow of Poverty fixes, you can figure out what's usually expected on the boring numbers, and either take those out of the monster stats (which makes AC that already goes haywire even more volatile) or add them to the player stats as a free template.

If I had to make a quick guess off the top of my head? Take 1/3 of the monster's HD off of Save DCs and AC, and 2/3 the HD off of attack bonuses (AC really, really doesn't scale without the +x armor and rings of protection and amulet of natural armor, etc, etc, etc.).

[Flickerdart]

I mean like this:

If monsters scale slower, thus there will be less necessity for stat boosting items.

Though that would require touching up spells a bit. But thats generally it.
So what you want to do is change the entirety of the system's math. Yeah, you won't find a simple template for that.

[DeusMortuusEst]

I think that Vael on these boards solved this by giving characters 'imaginary wealth' each time they leveled up. The players pick enchantment and magic items for the value corresponding to the IW and then their characters gain those powers as they level up.

It actually makes characters slightly more powerful, I think. It's in her/his campaign setting, I'll see if I can dig it up later.

[GreenETC]

Obligatory suggestion to use MIC combination rules for normal bonuses, applied to interesting magic items in a way that you can let your PCs enjoy it all.

[Scowling Dragon]

Would be nice if you had a link to the mic stuff.

[GreenETC]

Would be nice if you had a link to the mic stuff.
It's page 234 of the Magic Item Compendium. Every stat boost/resistance bonus/natural armor/deflection bonus gets listed with an affinity for specific slots (most of which are the existing slots, like Str being Arms, Hands, and Waist), and you just add the extra to the cost of the item.

As long as you stick things in normal places, they only add a cost equal to the stat boosting item, meaning it is the best of both worlds and makes it very easy to customize items for your PCs so they can have interesting effects AND stats.

[Barsoom]

I always liked the simplicity of this template:


- Whenever you get a level-based ability increase, you may increase all ability scores instead of one.
- Any enhancement bonuses to your ability scores are negated

(basically, by level 20, you gain +5 to all abilities rather than just one, but can't use any of the ability-enhancing items, potions, or spells. How much LA, if at all, this template is worth, is debatable)

[Flickerdart]

I always liked the simplicity of this template:



(basically, by level 20, you gain +5 to all abilities rather than just one, but can't use any of the ability-enhancing items, potions, or spells. How much LA, if at all, this template is worth, is debatable)
It's worth nothing. +6 items are trivial by level 20, and +5 Inherent from Wish or tomes is simple to get. Being 5 points ahead in 3-5 unimportant scores is not worth being 11 points behind in primary scores.

[GreenETC]

(basically, by level 20, you gain +5 to all abilities rather than just one, but can't use any of the ability-enhancing items, potions, or spells. How much LA, if at all, this template is worth, is debatable)
Definitely seems okay Scratch that, it hurts you a lot, unless you're already that MAD, in which case the Belt of Magnificence is just fine and lets you keep your level up stat boosts. Most classes don't need all 6 stats; 3 at most, if not a single stat to rule them all. With level up bonuses and +6 items, you get to add +10 to a single stat if you want, not even including non-enhancement bonuses to stats, not to mention much sooner than if you had to wait all the way until level 8 just to get +2 to your main stat.

[Eslin]

Well, you could just give everyone gradually scaling bonuses that don't stack with magic items (enhancement to natural armour etc) so they have very little incentive to grab the plain +x stat gear.

[Zerter]

It's worth nothing. +6 items are trivial by level 20, and +5 Inherent from Wish or tomes is simple to get. Being 5 points ahead in 3-5 unimportant scores is not worth being 11 points behind in primary scores.

You are absolutely right, when you are playing a highly optimized game that is. This thread seems to be for a real game with no indication of a high optimization level, where having +11 to various stats from inherent/enhancement bonusses is not that usual even at level 20. I would change what you get to this though: you get +1 to all every 4 levels, and in addition to that +1 you can spend freely.

[gr8artist]

From my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) it seems like the OP has characters that either A - routinely buy all the boring +x to necessary stat items, or B - routinely buy all the interesting spell-effect, 1/day, tokens and trinkets.
If A, then the PC's are more boring. Taking away their stuff, or limiting future purchases to more interesting goodies will make them be more interesting, but will lower their effective stats and make them more vulnerable to same-CR creatures.
If B, then the PC's are interesting, but more vulnerable to same-CR creatures.

It seemed like he was asking for ways to nerf creatures to a lower CR, to make them a better fit against less optimized characters.
The easy response is: throw an easier creature at them. If they kill it quick, send it's brother. But, sometimes you just want to throw a T-rex and penniless level 1 PC's into an arena together in their first scenario. (I've heard of it).
The next best response: Give the creature a -2 to all rolls and DC's, and -1 CR. Keep an eye on specialized defenses (DR and SR, specifically) as they may need additional nerfing. This is a fast and loose template, as I don't think anything exists like what you're asking for.
The most humorous response: put the creature at a disadvantage. A shark is still a shark on dry land, it just can't move very far. The location disadvantage lowers the effective CR of the encounter by about 1.

Going by the NPC items/gear tables, an NPC's CR drops by 1 if it has NO GEAR AT ALL. Since your PC's will still have the basic necessities, but have a higher standard of living, I figure half-effective wealth reduces their CR's by 1 as well.

[Flickerdart]

You are absolutely right, when you are playing a highly optimized game that is. This thread seems to be for a real game with no indication of a high optimization level, where having +11 to various stats from inherent/enhancement bonusses is not that usual even at level 20. I would change what you get to this though: you get +1 to all every 4 levels, and in addition to that +1 you can spend freely.
I don't know anyone who considers buying two obvious core items (I can make my barbarian's strength higher? Oh boy!) to be high optimization.

[stack]

I played in a game here where all basic stat and save booster's where banned, instead each character received scaling bonuses to replace them, leaving wealth for buying interesting stuff. Enhancements on weapons & armor where also banned, leaving room for other enchantments (also removing the +1 min). Worked fine, though I don't recall the scalling.

Masters of the Nine Swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232752), PairO'Dice Lost gm'ing.

[soapdude]

You are absolutely right, when you are playing a highly optimized game that is. This thread seems to be for a real game with no indication of a high optimization level...[snip]

I'm curious as to the meaning behind "a real game". So games where people try to make optimized build decisions aren't "real"?

[Barsoom]

I don't know anyone who considers buying two obvious core items (I can make my barbarian's strength higher? Oh boy!) to be high optimization.


I'm curious as to the meaning behind "a real game". So games where people try to make optimized build decisions aren't "real"?

Guys, guys, relax. It's nothing personal against you. Some people just don't attempt to optimize their wealth. They use whatever items the DM placed in whatever dark catacombs they loot, and that's it. A lot of people actually do play this way. They simply don't know that gear (along with feats and skill points) is something that even can be optimized.

I have played with such a group, by the way, and it was all good. Nice people, good roleplaying, good storytelling by the DM.

[Raven777]

My issue isn't when the item has meaning, but when EVERYBODY has to have the standard boosts in order not to get immediately slaughtered thats when I have an issue.

Use weaker monsters if you don't want your party to feel like they have to run the arms race. If they go for the stats anyway, start using appropriate monsters again.

[kernal42]

These items are standard and boring because they're often the most cost-effective ways of making your character stronger. If you nerf the monsters, they're still the most cost-effective ways of making your character stronger and your players will still buy them. Removing them from the game entirely makes a lot of things wacky and is probably a bad idea.

Don't nerf the monsters - buff the characters. Give them free* and non-stacking stat buffs so they can spend their gold elsewhere.

*Free means you don't take it out of their loot rewards. If you take it out of the loot rewards, it becomes effectively an enforced loot purchase which is exactly what you don't want. Instead maybe make the monsters a little harder to account for the effectively greater loot your players earn.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Scowling Dragon]

You guys are all probably right. Im getting upset over a non-issue.

[danzibr]

I think that Vael on these boards solved this by giving characters 'imaginary wealth' each time they leveled up. The players pick enchantment and magic items for the value corresponding to the IW and then their characters gain those powers as they level up.

It actually makes characters slightly more powerful, I think. It's in her/his campaign setting, I'll see if I can dig it up later.
This is such a cool idea! Totally doing this next time I DM.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

You guys are all probably right. Im getting upset over a non-issue.

Nah, I think it's a reasonable question. It's also very easy to answer

You have two options. One is to make the PCs stronger by giving them to-hit, saving throw, AC, and ability save DC boosts based on level. But that's complicated.

The other option is just to nerf monsters a bit based on CR, applying a penalty to their attack rolls, AC, saving throws, and ability DCs. I think a 1:4 ratio is about right (since that makes a CR 20 monster suffer a -5 penalty, which is in line with the fighter's longsword and full plate).

So simply take the monster's CR, divide it by 4, and apply that as a penalty to its attack rolls, AC, saving throws, and ability DCs.