What is a Slam?

[silver spectre]

What is the difference between a Slam attack and Improved Unarmed Strike?

[Gwendol]

A slam is a natural weapon attack that uses an appendage (arm, tentacle, etc) to deliver blunt trauma (lethal damage). Medium creatures use both(?) arms to deliver a slam, while Large or larger can hit separately with their appendages.

An unarmed strike deals non-lethal damage, and is available to all humanoid creatures (no need for a natural weapon listing).

[silver spectre]

A slam is a natural weapon attack that uses an appendage (arm, tentacle, etc) to deliver blunt trauma (lethal damage). Medium creatures use both(?) arms to deliver a slam, while Large or larger can hit separately with their appendages.

An unarmed strike deals non-lethal damage, and is available to all humanoid creatures (no need for a natural weapon listing).


So the only real difference (other than ease of listing) is that slams are limited to specific limbs?

I've always treated slams and Improved Unarmed Strike (the feat) as the same unless the description limits it to or specifies a specific limb/s.

[Telonius]

It's similar, but not exactly the same. A slam, being a natural attack, does not get iterative attacks. An unarmed attack does. So if someone has a base attack bonus of +10 (and a strength of 10), he could get two unarmed attacks at +10/+5. If the same character has a Slam attack, he would only get one attack at +10.

EDIT: Another benefit of a natural attack is that you can combine it with regular melee attacks. Using the example above, if the character had a Slam attack, he could make two unarmed attacks at +10/+5, then a Slam attack at +5. (If a natural weapon isn't a primary attack, its bonus is at your highest base attack minus 5, or minus 2 if you have the Multiattack feat).

[Shred-Bot]

I like to visualize slam attacks as leaping chest bumps. That however is purely headcanon and very much incorrect.

[silver spectre]

A slam, being a natural attack, does not get iterative attacks. An unarmed attack does.

Ok. That clicked, but that brings up a question about creatures with slam attacks becoming monks.

I.E. A stone giant monk has two slam attacks and Imp UA strike. Does it have to choose between the two or does the Imp UA strike augment the slams?

I just read your edit.

Does that change if the slam is a primary attack or if the critter has multiple slams?

[Cespenar]

I always visualized a Slam as a two handed Kirk strike.

[Humble Master]

The way it works for monsters is that they get multiple natural attacks (slam, claw, http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286497)
gets to make one attack with it's primary attack and then make attacks with all of it's other natural attacks at a -5 penalty or -2 if the monster has Multiattack. So If a creature has a slam as it's primary it makes that slam at full BAB and then all of it's other natural attacks at -5 and then it's unarmed strike (if it is proficient with unarmed strike) as normal. If the creature has multiple slams then it makes it primary attack then all of those slam attacks (-5 if they are not primary) and then uses it's manufactured weapons or unarmed strike.

[gr8artist]

Monks can't use NA's in their flurry, IIRC. Which sucks.
Also, if you get your slam from, say, an arm, then you can't use that slam if you use that arm to make another attack with another weapon.
Unarmed strikes are ok, because they can be kicks, elbows, knees, whatever. Sure it counts as off-hand if it's not your fist, but who cares? We're obviously looking for quantity over quality.

And I always imagine slams as a two-handed overhead hulk smash, or as a shoulder-ram.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Slap or Slam

The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.

I generally describe it as a less refined version of an unarmed strike, pummelling the enemy and swinging wildly in an attempt to deal damage rather than accurately striking weak points.

[ericgrau]

While techinically it is any blunt damage, I always imagined slams as anything heavy with a big surface, and my [selective?] memory says that fits a lot of monsters. Elementals or oozes that attack with large portions of their body. Or even vampires that swat with an open palm and yet the force seems to be coming from a wrecking ball not a small hand. If I remember the basics of martial arts right, for unarmed strikes you want to use the edges of your bones to decrease the striking surface for more concentrated blows: knuckles, heels, elbows, knees, etc.

[Darrin]

So the only real difference (other than ease of listing) is that slams are limited to specific limbs?


It's not clear if all slams are limited to specific limbs. In creatures larger than medium-sized that are generally humanoid in shape (such as giants, elementals, and golems), they may get two slams, and from what we can tell each arm gets a separate slam. We know this from MM p. 312, "Large creatures with arms or armlike limbs can make a slam attack with each arm", and from the stat blocks of the giants, which lose their slams when wielding a two-handed weapon. There are also some larger creatures, mostly oozes or worm-like aberrations, get a single "body slam" that isn't tied to any particular appendage.

Medium-sized creatures with slams generally only get one slam, and it's not clear if they lose this slam if one or both arms is occupied. Doppelganger is the best example in the MM, but their stat block doesn't mention what happens to their slam when they wield manufactured weapons. The Vampire template also grants a slam, but it keeps it even if both hands are occupied. The Woodling template (MM3) grants a slam similar to the Vampire's. Warforged is probably the best example of a medium humanoid with a slam, but according to their stat block they appear to lose it when wielding a two-handed weapon such as a spear.

When I tried to sort out this mess into different "slam categories" in a previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240218), nobody liked it. I think the best compromise was something I like to call:

"One slam good, two slams bad."

If a creature (any size) has a single slam, then it's a "body slam", shoulder check, chest bump, etc., that doesn't involve the arms. It keeps its slam attack, even if one or both arms is occupied.

If a creature (any size) has two slams, then these are "arm slams" and they lose one or both of those slams if the corresponding arm is occupied.

This makes Warforged and other creatures with a single slam a bit more powerful than their stat blocks may have intended, but it's easy to remember and doesn't create a lot of rules headaches.

[Chronos]

You can't use natural weapons as part of a flurry, but you can use them as additional attacks on top of a flurry, which amounts to about the same thing.

And even if a monster normally uses a natural weapon as primary, if it somehow gets the ability to use a manufactured weapon or unarmed strike, it uses the manufactured weapon or unarmed strike as primary, and the natural weapon as secondary.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think the simplest method of dealing with a slam is to treat it as a normal natural weapon, IE you can tack it on to the end of a full attack, use it once as a standard action, or make a single attack with it as a full attack (tacking on other natural weapons).

All the breaking up of what slams can be used with what wielded weapon gets silly, and isn't spelled out well. A natural attack added onto a full attack isn't going to break the game.

I rule, in my games, that the only natural weapon you can't wield with a weapon is a claw. I rule that claws occupy your hand.

Niche case for mouthpick weapons disabling your bite as well, but that doesn't come up commonly.

[Ashtagon]

I like to visualize slam attacks as leaping chest bumps. That however is purely headcanon and very much incorrect.

Leaping chest bumps?

I think I need therapy now.

[undead hero]

Leaping chest bumps?

I think I need therapy now.

There is a thread that will help you with the leap attack math :D

[limejuicepowder]

A slam is like a hammer fist. A humanoid would form their hand it to a fist, but instead of extending their arm parallel to the ground and connecting with the knuckles, they'd raise their arm and then swing it downwards, connecting with the pinky and edge of the palm.

At least that what I imagine.

[Urpriest]

It's not clear if all slams are limited to specific limbs. In creatures larger than medium-sized that are generally humanoid in shape (such as giants, elementals, and golems), they may get two slams, and from what we can tell each arm gets a separate slam. We know this from MM p. 312, "Large creatures with arms or armlike limbs can make a slam attack with each arm", and from the stat blocks of the giants, which lose their slams when wielding a two-handed weapon. There are also some larger creatures, mostly oozes or worm-like aberrations, get a single "body slam" that isn't tied to any particular appendage.

Medium-sized creatures with slams generally only get one slam, and it's not clear if they lose this slam if one or both arms is occupied. Doppelganger is the best example in the MM, but their stat block doesn't mention what happens to their slam when they wield manufactured weapons. The Vampire template also grants a slam, but it keeps it even if both hands are occupied. The Woodling template (MM3) grants a slam similar to the Vampire's. Warforged is probably the best example of a medium humanoid with a slam, but according to their stat block they appear to lose it when wielding a two-handed weapon such as a spear.

When I tried to sort out this mess into different "slam categories" in a previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240218), nobody liked it. I think the best compromise was something I like to call:

"One slam good, two slams bad."

If a creature (any size) has a single slam, then it's a "body slam", shoulder check, chest bump, etc., that doesn't involve the arms. It keeps its slam attack, even if one or both arms is occupied.

If a creature (any size) has two slams, then these are "arm slams" and they lose one or both of those slams if the corresponding arm is occupied.

This makes Warforged and other creatures with a single slam a bit more powerful than their stat blocks may have intended, but it's easy to remember and doesn't create a lot of rules headaches.

I don't know if I said this in the original thread, but I feel like Warforged slams are a bad example to use for any sort of precedent. Things like Second Slam and the existence of Battlefists show that Warforged slams are really weird and different from everyone else's slams.

[Keld Denar]

The Marilith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#marilith) has 6 arms and gets 6 slams if unarmed. Since it is Large, this goes along with what Darrin stated about slams being arm related.

If you want to get really silly, however, you could change her Weapon Focus: Longsword feat to Improved Unarmed Strike and Combat Reflexes and Combat Expertise to Improved and Greater Multiweapon Fighting and her attack routine would look like thus:

Mainhand:
+24/+19/+14 UAS (1d4+9)
Offhand1:
+24/+19/+14 UAS (1d4+4)
Offhand2:
+24/+19/+14 UAS (1d4+4)
Offhand3:
+24/+19/+14 UAS (1d4+4)
Offhand4:
+24/+19/+14 UAS (1d4+4)
Offhand5:
+24/+19/+14 UAS (1d4+4)
Slam:
+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22 (1d8+4)
Tail Slap:
+22 (4d6+4)

Yea, that's 25 attacks per round. Not a lot of damage per hit, and she'd really be hurt hard by DR, but it could add up to a lot.

[Spuddles]

A leg is also an appendage.

Just sayin, for all those THF fightin' warforged out there....

[Shred-Bot]

Leaping chest bumps?

I think I need therapy now.

You need therapy? You're not the one imagining elementals, golems, treants and the like jumping at people like an NBA player after a monster dunk.

(For the large and up creatures that get 2 slams I like to visualize them doing a little bunny hop after their first chest bump connects for the second attack. 6 chest slams in 6 seconds would be tricky for that marilith though...)

[Darrin]

I don't know if I said this in the original thread, but I feel like Warforged slams are a bad example to use for any sort of precedent. Things like Second Slam and the existence of Battlefists show that Warforged slams are really weird and different from everyone else's slams.

I completely agree. Unfortunately, the Warforged is a popular race with LA +0, so for most players this is how they are most likely going to deal with slam attacks. Unfortunately, the designers never really understood how they interact with unarmed strikes or manufactured weapons, so the rules for dealing with them tend to be pretty discombobulated.

[Chronos]

Keld Denar, you only get one iterative sequence of unarmed strikes, not one for each arm.

[Keld Denar]

That's assuming that you can't TWF or MWF with your UAS alone. There has never been any conclusive proof for or against that case other than a few random abilities and phrases scattered through a few obscure places. There is just as much evidence for it as against it.

So yea, depending on the DM, that attack routine is entirely possible.

[danzibr]

I picture them (perhaps not very accurately by RAW) as shoulder rams. So for me, claw + slam = no problem.

[Pickford]

What is the difference between a Slam attack and Improved Unarmed Strike?

I find it helpful to pick up the primary sources whenever game terms are being asked about. These two things are defined:

MM:

Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage

PHB:

unarmed strike: A successful blow, typically dealing nonlethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons. A monk can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike, but others deal nonlethal damage.

[The Viscount]

While we're talking about visualizations, I'd like to mention one that always bothered me: gelatinous cube. How does it slam? Does it just fall over on you?

[Darrin]

While we're talking about visualizations, I'd like to mention one that always bothered me: gelatinous cube. How does it slam? Does it just fall over on you?

From the MM:

"A gelatinous cube attacks by slamming its body into its prey. It is capable of lashing out with a pseudopod, but usually engulfs foes."

So, that could either mean a body slam or a pseudopod (appendage).

[Chained Birds]

While we're talking about visualizations, I'd like to mention one that always bothered me: gelatinous cube. How does it slam? Does it just fall over on you?

I always visualized it as a portion of the body shooting out of it like some gooey geyser that then leads up to the Ooze moving forward to engulf anything it hit. Though a body slam works too.