Old problem: the (low level) wizard is too strong

[Harlot]

Hi
New to this forum, new as a DM too. Currently DMing a 3.5 game, started at first level, now the party (barbarian, rogue, wizard) is at level 4.
Being careful, as I am new to the whole thing, I've limited the wizard to three schools only, by his choice they are:illus, evoc, conj. + he has read and detect magic.
The world started out with no magic at all, gradually I've introduced magic matching whichever level they are at, but magic items are very scarce.
Now regardless of these limitations, even at these low levels he still kicks ass, i've had to gradually raise encounterlevels to two or three levels higher than theirs. That's ok, but now I need to CATCH them, not to kill them, ofcource, but to bring them to prison meeting an important, nay crucial NPC. I know I could just ambush them using wizards, but in this low magic world that just shouts "DM wants your asses on a platter". I would like it to seem less obvious. So I thought: archers ... Would that work? With him having both invisibility and glitterdust, i'm not too sure. Some sort of trap with a net? They should be overpowered in a way that makes them surrender, not kill themselves.
On an other note, he has LOADs of scrolls, lapse of judgement on my part. Its mostly summon monster II and Color spray. Can he use those unlimited?

Hope you can help me, this forum has helped me a LOT so far, even without me being an actual member.

Thanks, Harlot

EDIT: To other newbie DM's reading this: I've compiled all of the highlights from this thread in my 4th post on p. 3. (used to be the last post but the thread continued beyond that ...) In that way, you get all of the good advice in one post, and can then read the thread if you want details.

[ArcturusV]

Well... it's one of those things where a Low Magic world really makes Wizards MORE powerful, not less so. The lack of magic items hurts guys like the Barbarian and Rogue a lot more than it hurts the Wizard. I would say this is the cause of your problem, but honestly that sort of thing pretty much happens from level 1 onwards anyway if your Wizard is playing up to his full potential, unless you go seriously Monty Haul for your various Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues.

Archers... might work. If your guy hasn't learned spells like Protection from Arrows, Wind Wall, etc. Note that if you have a mass of archers they can use the Volley Rules to effectively negate a lot of defenses like Miss Chance and AC (For every 5 firing in a volley, you inflict X damage where X is the weapon they're using on a target square. Enemies in the square can make a Reflex Save for half damage). Though it might give your Rogue a chance to shine with a decent Reflex Save and Evasion.

Scrolls by the way are a One and Done deal. So don't let him "Reuse" a scroll. As soon as he uses a scroll for anything (Copying to his spellbook, casting, etc), it's gone. No more use. Of course using a Scroll is a Standard action, so it's not like he can pop off 5 Summon Monster IIs in a single round either.

Depending on how you want to go with it? Having a small group "bring them in" might be a way to go. Say... 3 Paladins of moderately high level with a Holy Avenger Longsword.

So you have something like Human Paladin 5, Human Paladin 6, Human Paladin 10 with a Holy Avenger.

The Holy Avenger in the hands of a Paladin would give the Paladin (And everyone near him) Spell Resistance making it pretty hard to tag him with any Illusions or Evocations. Being of those levels, the Paladins should be able to slice and dice any monsters that get summoned and handle (Though not just manhandling them easily) your Barbarian and Rogue.

And it being a small group of Holy Knights makes it likely to give the right feel of someone that has been sent out to bring in these people.

[buttcyst]

easy, use his limitations as a tool, if you want him to have his moment to shine, let him do his thing, but if you want to add some uh no wizard to the encounter, do things like incorporate silence, darkness, miss/failure chances (even if its low, he'll think twice with the percentiles in hand). simple things usually work best.

[Tvtyrant]

The problem here is that a low magic world with a wizard in it is like putting Magneto into a world without mutants. Magical items are disproportionately useful for none-magic classes, as the magic users by their nature already get magic.

A third level spell open to evocation is Wind Wall, which shuts down all archers by itself. So archers will stop working in about a level if your wizard so chooses. My suggestion is to go with a Triton or two and have them summon a group of Huge Monstrous Centipedes. You get between 2 and 6 of them, and they all have high grapples and poison. The Triton's stand in the back and throw nets/bolas at the party.

[mcbobbo]

Some non-specific advice: Rethink that plot.

Not that it's bad, just that it can be really tough to pull off in a way that feels fun for everyone.

If you need to coerce them, put an NPC they care about in jeopardy instead.

If you just have an itch to play the 'start with no equipment' hook, save it for the next TPK. "You thought you were going to die but you wake up in jail instead."

If you go head on against your players, they will resist you. Pretty much the same result you might expect when you're not trying to capture them.

As for specific to low magic, remember the drawbacks: somatics, materials, provoking AoOs, etc.

[Twopair]

First things first, as a long-time GM I've found it's generally a bad idea to base sessions upon things going a very certain way(in this case, them being caught). Yes, it can turn out great. It can also go horribly wrong. Either the players will manage to escape- or even slaughter- the ambushers, thus leaving you with no way to progress the story, or you'll be forced to break the rules to ensure their capture, which generally causes a lot of resentment if they realise what you're doing (and sometimes even if they don't).

With that out of the way... yeah. Wizards are broken as hell. Without knowing more about the player, I can't really say how you'd incapacitate him, except in very general terms. Does he prepare meticulously for every possible situation? Or is he more of a blaster, hurling fireballs scorching rays at enemies? The latter is a lot easier to deal with, though at first glance it may seem more troublesome.

Anyway. At level 4, a wizard isn't so hard to mess with. Off the top of my head, here a few ways (some far more likely to cause the player in question to sulk than others):

1. Steal his spellbook. Barring Eidetic Spellcaster and it's ilk, having an NPC steal his spellbook will prevent the wizard from preparing any spells at all. Obviously this is a bit of a downside as it leaves the wizard totally useless. But if that's what you're going for, it works a treat.

2. Force him to make concentration checks. Archers as you suggested can ready an action to pepper the wizard with arrows when he starts to cast. At level 4, there's a good chance he'll blow the concentration checks and lose the spell. Failing that, sticking them in a storm (driving hail is your best bet) forces a DC 10+spell level check to cast anything.

3. Melee rush. At such a low level, the wizard won't have most of his key defensive abilities (namely Teleport, Contingency, Celerity or anything that'll let him flee). Having a big fighter charge him during a surprise round, and either simply stay and AoO when he casts, or grapple him, will prevent him doing much damage.

4. Antimagic Field. Bit of a cop out, but it'll do the trick. Either have the party camp in a null magic zone, an AMF trap, a low-leveled caster with a scroll of it, whatever. Also, to answer your question about scrolls, they can only be used once before becoming useless.

5. Counterspelling. Make the enemy primarily non-magical, but give them a single caster (ideally a spontaneous caster) who dedicates all his actions to counter-spelling the wizard.

6. Traps. Have the wizard trigger a pit fall trap or something like it. He probably has a god-awful Reflex save. Drop him on his head at the start of the ambush and have him come to in prison.

7. Gentleman's agreement. Something I implement in my games, and use as a player, taking the player aside and mutually agreeing to keep things to a reasonable level of optimisation/craziness keeps things from going too far. While it doesn't sound like your wizard is so much game-breaking as stealing the show, next level he'll get third level spells, and it only gets worse/better from there.


Personally, I'd steer away from archers. They aren't particularly great and wizards have a ton of ranged options- melee is more a challenge for them, where their terrible HP and fear of AoOs is a major problem. Although, if you're planning to ambush the party, and have it all be over in one surprise round, it'd work fine (though in this case, you really don't need to do anything else to incapacitate the wizard).

[Arbane]

That's ok, but now I need to CATCH them, not to kill them, ofcource, but to bring them to prison meeting an important, nay crucial NPC.

I think I've found your problem, and it has very little to do with the wizard.

Possible solution: Put the NPC somewhere else, or rearrange the plot to make them less pivotal.

[angry_bear]

A couple of rangers, and a whole boatload of puppies to send in for melee would be what I'd use for a situation like this... Multiple trip attackers, makes the rogues stealth much less useful, and if the wizard was planning on going invisible, it doesn't help against the dogs scent ability. If you keep the rangers in some trees, it even prevents the barbarian from being able to charge them easily, allowing them to focus fire on whoever they want without serious repercussions.

[OzymandiasX]

One word solution: Grapple!

Long version: The best way to capture a low level party like yours (or make them surrender) is to beat them with grappling. A monk will have an easy time getting to the wizard (tumble, fast movement), and succeeding at grappling. Once grappled the wizard is now probably helpless. The rogue is also probably not too difficult to grapple (unless he specialized in escape artist early) or net, especially if the enemies outnumber the party, which they should.

So as an example, you can throw a group of bounty hunters at the party. These bounty hunters are specialists at bringing back captives alive and it would make sense for them to have several grappling specialists (monks or fighters work best at this level). They'd have a few meat shields to secure tactical position, block their grappling allies from being attacked, etc.

[Harlot]

Wow, you're fast. And of great help :-)

I am sad to hear that my careful approach to magic partly causes the problem - seems I have to amp up the magic overall, and fast too!

And thanks for the info on scrolls, seems I had it right, glad to be sure. Additional question though: since they're scrolls, I mean, rolled up and put into tubes and sealed of and placed in his backpack ... doesn't it take some sort of action to actually find the scroll he needs and open it and use it? Seems odd to me that he can fire off an new scroll every six seconds?


Some non-specific advice: Rethink that plot.

Not that it's bad, just that it can be really tough to pull off in a way that feels fun for everyone.

I could rethink the plot. Basically I need them to meet up with this NPC and bring her with them - hence the prison plot - but it would fit the storyline quite well if they are just asked by their mentor/guildmaster to go fetch her. I guess I was just too wound up in my plot to consider the other option. Duh.

On the Archers: OK, good to know the idea wasn't half bad, sad to hear about Wind Wall - the player with the wizard is very experienced so he WILL choose to have it, I'm sure, if I start using archers against them. (He knows every rule - he is a challenge in the best possible way - really makes me up my game. Very cool.)



Depending on how you want to go with it? Having a small group "bring them in" might be a way to go. Say... 3 Paladins of moderately high level with a Holy Avenger Longsword.

So you have something like Human Paladin 5, Human Paladin 6, Human Paladin 10 with a Holy Avenger.

The Holy Avenger in the hands of a Paladin would give the Paladin (And everyone near him) Spell Resistance making it pretty hard to tag him with any Illusions or Evocations. Being of those levels, the Paladins should be able to slice and dice any monsters that get summoned and handle (Though not just manhandling them easily) your Barbarian and Rogue.

And it being a small group of Holy Knights makes it likely to give the right feel of someone that has been sent out to bring in these people.

THIS is how I'll do it, if I do not change the plot. It totally makes sense in the overall story and world build, which is basically 'evil medieval Europe with a slightly evil omnipotent church running everything'. Having highlevel paladins seeking them out and bringing them in totally makes sense since they learned during the last session, that the church is now oficially looking for them. And they've already been introduced to an obnoxious 'auld enemy' NPC, who happens to be a paladin (lvl. 5).


easy, use his limitations as a tool, if you want him to have his moment to shine, let him do his thing, but if you want to add some uh no wizard to the encounter, do things like incorporate silence, darkness, miss/failure chances (even if its low, he'll think twice with the percentiles in hand). simple things usually work best.

Again, thanx: I've already house-ruled that as magic is quite new in this world there's always a 10% chance of failure (all magic users, any encounter/situation) and that a roll of 5 or less backfires. But I haven't thought of using silence or darkness against him. How would that work? All I could think of is hindering his movement. (This ofcourse is a general problem, not just this encounter)

Again, thanks for all of your help. Really valuable to a DM rookie like myself.

/Harlot

[Harlot]

OH, you're so fast I have to answer again already:


First things first, as a long-time GM I've found it's generally a bad idea to base sessions upon things going a very certain way(in this case, them being caught). Yes, it can turn out great. It can also go horribly wrong. Either the players will manage to escape- or even slaughter- the ambushers, thus leaving you with no way to progress the story, or you'll be forced to break the rules to ensure their capture, which generally causes a lot of resentment if they realise what you're doing (and sometimes even if they don't).


Yes, alas, that's what I realised, and why I asked for help, being stuck in my own plot.
As for your suggestions, Twopair, I briefly considered taking his spellbook, but that would be unfair - though tempting!! It's my problem dealing with the fact that he is a really good player/wizard, I don't want to ruin the game, and he has been really cool about my houserules and my limiting his spells. Your suggestions 2-6. All Very helpful to a newbie, thank you so much.



So as an example, you can throw a group of bounty hunters at the party. These bounty hunters are specialists at bringing back captives alive and it would make sense for them to have several grappling specialists (monks or fighters work best at this level). They'd have a few meat shields to secure tactical position, block their grappling allies from being attacked, etc.

Yes! As with the paladins: Doable, and makes sense, thanx.


A couple of rangers, and a whole boatload of puppies to send in for melee would be what I'd use for a situation like this... Multiple trip attackers, makes the rogues stealth much less useful, and if the wizard was planning on going invisible, it doesn't help against the dogs scent ability. If you keep the rangers in some trees, it even prevents the barbarian from being able to charge them easily, allowing them to focus fire on whoever they want without serious repercussions.

Yes, again, doable, and I've used dogs (actually blink dogs, to get close to the wizard) before, quite succesfully. Scent is good.



I think I've found your problem, and it has very little to do with the wizard.

Possible solution: Put the NPC somewhere else, or rearrange the plot to make them less pivotal.

True, it seems :-(
Can't make the NPC less crucial - she is - but can make it more obvious that she is their mission.

AGAIN, Thanks, you really are the best!
/Harlot

[Flickerdart]

Wind Wall doesn't block siege weapon-size projectiles. Any Large creature with Strongarm Bracers can wield a Huge bow, and bypass the wall. The easiest way would probably be Were-Warhorse (yes it's silly, but imagine how much money an army with these would save on transportation) in hybrid form, which is only a CR3 creature when slapped on your average single-hit die Warrior.

Does it seem more like DM fiat than a cadre of wizards? It really depends on the kind of game it is. :smallwink:

[Agincourt]

With regards to the player's "loads of scrolls," remember that the save DC is usually lower for a scroll, versus if the player had cast the spell. On page 214 of the DMG it explains the save DC, "For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell."

Thus, the save DC on his Color Spray scrolls is only 11. The group is level four, so challenge appropriate enemies should be making that save more than half the time. In a low magic world, it's not unreasonable that enemies who make their save immediately target the magic user.

[Blightedmarsh]

What about sending some creepy blind creatures against them.

The wizard is invisible? Big whoop; they can't (and don't need to) see him anyway.

The wizard puts up an illusion? They can't see what isn't there, or what is there for that matter.

Gilterdust? Blind? Darkness? All no good against a creature that doesn't see.

[Randomguy]

Throw an NPC they know in the prison, in the same cell as the key NPC, and try changing the plot from a break out to a rescue.

Who (in game) wants the PCs in prison? Does it make sense for them to have some mage-hunters or some wizards of their own?

If you really want them caught, use a large amount of stealthy lower level characters with nets, bolas, mancatchers (they're an exotic weapon in complete warrior) and the like. There are spiked versions of both nets and bolas, if you prefer to do lethal damage. A few people with the Boomerang daze combo of feats might be good as well. (Nevermind, the bounty hunters would need to be too high level for this). These bounty hunters wouldn't group up, but would spread out and surround the party as well as they could, to not be caught by Color Spray.

[ahenobarbi]

On topic: as others wrote you probably don't want to rely on your PCs being captured. Because they can succeed. That doesn't mean that you must throw your idea away :)

You can still send Paladins (or whatever) with missions to capture PCs. The team can be strong but PCs should have some chance of success. If they loose just go with your original idea. If PCs win they can find out that their hunters already captured someone (the NPC you want them to meet). If PCs run (ha, ha) the PC-hunters can keep finding them (they are pros after all).


Wind Wall doesn't block siege weapon-size projectiles. Any Large creature with Strongarm Bracers can wield a Huge bow, and bypass the wall. The easiest way would probably be Were-Warhorse (yes it's silly, but imagine how much money an army with these would save on transportation) in hybrid form, which is only a CR3 creature when slapped on your average single-hit die Warrior.

Does it seem more like DM fiat than a cadre of wizards? It really depends on the kind of game it is. :smallwink:

Minor nitpick: you can't have were-warhorse because horses don't eat meat.

[JusticeZero]

The next thing... Magic is rare, so make spells difficult to find. No "one from any source for leveling" stuff. But still let spells be available, and encourage spell research. That said, yes, Syndrome had the right idea about what makes powerful people powerful. When everyone is super, no one will be.

[Harlot]

Again, thanks for helping:

Ahm, I'll pass on the werewarhorses, though the idea is amusing.


Magic is rare, so make spells difficult to find. No "one from any source for leveling" stuff. But still let spells be available, and encourage spell research.
Actually I have, problem is that because of a lapse of judgement on my part my wizard has SO many scrolls stashed away already. Obtaining new spells as he levels up will be less easy.


If PCs run (ha, ha) the PC-hunters can keep finding them (they are pros after all).
They never do, do they? *Sigh*


You can still send Paladins (or whatever) with missions to capture PCs. The team can be strong but PCs should have some chance of success. If they loose just go with your original idea. If PCs win they can find out that their hunters already captured someone (the NPC you want them to meet)

Throw an NPC they know in the prison, in the same cell as the key NPC, and try changing the plot from a break out to a rescue.

Yes, that seems to be the solution, go with the ambush/them being captured by bounty hunters, but with a great plan B if they fight it off.


Who (in game) wants the PCs in prison? Does it make sense for them to have some mage-hunters or some wizards of their own?

Yes it makes sense in the storyline as it is the big, bad church running everything that wants them apprehended. The church could easily have wizards. My main issue is HOW to do it AND make it not so offensive/obvious to the PCs that it was planned all along (I personally don't like when the DM makes choices for me. I like it to at least seem as if I could have managed the situation/had a choice.) Thus your suggestions here are very helpful. If the PC's avoid arrest/apprenhension they'll be lured to the prison anyway, freeing the NPC. I like it (Thinking of it, breaking in to a castle is really an interesting challenge. Normally you must escape.)


What about sending some creepy blind creatures against them.

The wizard is invisible? Big whoop; they can't (and don't need to) see him anyway.

The wizard puts up an illusion? They can't see what isn't there, or what is there for that matter.

Gilterdust? Blind? Darkness? All no good against a creature that doesn't see.

I'm afraid such creatures would eat the PC's, not just catch them? - BUT its is a really great idea for challenging the wizard, so I'll save it for later.


With regards to the player's "loads of scrolls," remember that the save DC is usually lower for a scroll, versus if the player had cast the spell. On page 214 of the DMG it explains the save DC, "For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell."

Thus, the save DC on his Color Spray scrolls is only 11. The group is level four, so challenge appropriate enemies should be making that save more than half the time. In a low magic world, it's not unreasonable that enemies who make their save immediately target the magic user.

I didn't know, thanks for the heads up. I'll remember that. Melee with a fair amount of equal level opponents should challenge him then.

Really I don't want to spoil the wizards game, that's not my intention at all, but it has simply been too easy for him so far, and I'd like him to break a sweat every now and then.

Again, thank for all of your help
/Harlot

[JusticeZero]

It's OK of the Wizard has a lot of lower power spells really. The mid to high level ones are the most important things to restrict. 4 th level spells are where the campaign breaking ones start to really appear.

[ahenobarbi]

It's OK of the Wizard has a lot of lower power spells really. The mid to high level ones are the most important things to restrict. 4 th level spells are where the campaign breaking ones start to really appear.

Alter self is level 2 and can break campaign pretty hard too (flight, burrowing, disguise, combat buffing).

[OzymandiasX]

Really I don't want to spoil the wizards game, that's not my intention at all, but it has simply been too easy for him so far, and I'd like him to break a sweat every now and then.
To make a low level wizard sweat: Hit him in melee a few times. Play intelligent adversaries smart and have them focus fire on him sometimes, since he is the biggest threat with the lowest hitpoints. Have them intentionally flank him so that he can't just 5' step away. Let them provoke a melee attack from him (they're not scared of a wizard's staff attack) in order to move into flank position.

Don't do this every combat, but it reminds the party that the wizard is fragile and that they need to work as a team to protect him sometimes.

[buttcyst]

darkness takes away line of sight, can be easily countered by a light spell, but it burns resources. silence takes away the verbal component of is spells, there are a few that don't have one, but not many. also, he is limited to a certain number of spell per day, you can do thing like make an encounter seem like "the big one" when the big one is actually waiting for after he has cast both second level spells. or even just a gauntlet of low level encounters to whittle down the parties resources

[Gavinfoxx]

NOT anti-magic field. That is a spell and requires you to add in a powerful Wizard, which is a bad idea. No-Magic zones or wild magic zones -- or just places where it is difficult to use magic at all.

And a Wizard with access to only Conjuration can still very easily be game-breaking...

Also, low magic games are very very bad for non-magical classes.

And you should read this:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4189.0

[RagnaroksChosen]

With regards to the player's "loads of scrolls," remember that the save DC is usually lower for a scroll, versus if the player had cast the spell. On page 214 of the DMG it explains the save DC, "For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell."

Thus, the save DC on his Color Spray scrolls is only 11. The group is level four, so challenge appropriate enemies should be making that save more than half the time. In a low magic world, it's not unreasonable that enemies who make their save immediately target the magic user.

That is a spell or spell like effect (such as a wand, potion or a magic item with a x/day ability).

Scrolls however:

A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm

So the wizard would actually use there own DC/CL/and Stat for the scroll. That's the whole point of scrolls.

[JusticeZero]

Alter Self is one spell. A single spell, or even two or three, can be negotiated. IIRC, PF redid that one to a more reasonable level and that is available online free; just swap it out, and since it's a version lots of people use it should not be a hard sell. At higher levels, the problem spells start to get huge, and balancing spell by spell gets to be herculean.
It is also pretty reasonable for a low magic setting for no other casters to have gotten to high enough level to have researched high level spells yet. So barring research time, his high level slots will end up mostly powering metamagic.

[Raendyn]

You are the DM, you don't have to go by the rules 100%.

You can just say that random lvl 1 roguess are tossing gemlike enchanted stones that explodes now ALL AOE saves or unconciousness.

You can just win the Grapple checks with some boosted stats. But you should let them outplay you too, many times Sandbox'ed > Railroad'ed.

[Ignominia]

That is a spell or spell like effect (such as a wand, potion or a magic item with a x/day ability).

Scrolls however:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm

So the wizard would actually use there own DC/CL/and Stat for the scroll. That's the whole point of scrolls.

I was under the impression that scrolls wands and potions, when the are created have the caster level chosen by the person creating it. So you could buy a first level magic missile scroll that does 1d4+1 and a 3rd level scroll of mm that does 1d4+1 x2.... The caster level of the the Mage using them has no effect. Likewise with wands and potions.

It's only staves that allow the caster to use their own stats. Which is why they are so powerful.

The entry about considering the wand/scroll/potion the minimum caster level is because of price, when you price a magic item the cost formula is spell level x caster level x (amount) so everything in the Dmg that is priced, is basted off of the caster level being the minimum for casting that particular spell.

For example, there is no way for a 1st level wizard to craft a wand of magic missile, but there are still wands of mm that cast as first level, and infact the Dmg contains several entries for wands of mm at different caster (and therefore power) level.

Am I wrong? Have I misunderstood?

[Agincourt]

That is a spell or spell like effect (such as a wand, potion or a magic item with a x/day ability).

I'm not following how a scroll is not a spell or spell-like effect. The passage I quoted from DMG 214 is towards the beginning of the Magic Items section and under a heading titled "Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers." Scrolls are a magic item and the section makes no exception for scrolls. (It does, however, make an exception for Staffs, where it explicitly states "staffs are an exception" and staffs use the applicable casting stat for the caster.)



Scrolls however:
Originally Posted by SRD
A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm

So the wizard would actually use there own DC/CL/and Stat for the scroll. That's the whole point of scrolls.The SRD entry does not contradict what I wrote. Unless you want to scribe a scroll at a higher caster level—say you want Grease to last longer than 1 round—then it is cast at the minimum caster level possible.

Scribing a scroll at a higher caster level, however, will raise the base cost. (The base cost is its spell level × its caster level × 25 gp.) Raising the base cost will also raise the XP you must expend to scribe it.

[Arbane]

You can just say that random lvl 1 roguess are tossing gemlike enchanted stones that explodes now ALL AOE saves or unconciousness.


(After fighting those rogues):
"Where can we get hold of some more of those?"

[TuggyNE]

That is a spell or spell like effect (such as a wand, potion or a magic item with a x/day ability).

Scrolls however:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm

So the wizard would actually use there own DC/CL/and Stat for the scroll. That's the whole point of scrolls.

No, that's precisely incorrect. Scrolls, as your quote shows, use the minimum CL and ability score (and therefore the minimum DC) that the creator could have had. Staffs, on the other hand, are the magic items designed to let you use your own CL/ability score/DC boosts.


Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

[Phaederkiel]

The next thing... Magic is rare, so make spells difficult to find. No "one from any source for leveling" stuff. But still let spells be available, and encourage spell research. That said, yes, Syndrome had the right idea about what makes powerful people powerful. When everyone is super, no one will be.

This. In a campaign where I play the wizard, my GM is very stingy with scrolls and other wizards. I get 2 spells per lvl up. And I can tell you: the limit of only learning one spell per day is also a big hindrance if you are on a tight schedule.

And this is my point to make:
Wizards are only half as overpowered if they cannot rest a lot an prepare in advance. GIve them something they have to do on time and watch him work uphill. And make sure he never gets another scroll.
These scrolls are your immedieate problem, make sure he needs to use as many as you can manage in as little time as possible.
I mean, how many spells can he prepare per day? 6 first, 4 second, or something like this. Half of the prepared spells are usually prepared in vain. A long day will tear his scroll resources to nothing. Especially if you are mean and give 3 encounters to the party which are built the same way. The first he will dominate, but it is unlikely he has prepared the same spells three times.

and I like the idea with the blind monster. A Monk with blindfight, pierce magical concealment and a high grapple score could do wonders, especially if he is able to use darkness as an advantage, so the rogue cannot save the wizard by sneaking the monk.

[Gavinfoxx]

This. In a campaign where I play the wizard, my GM is very stingy with scrolls and other wizards. I get 2 spells per lvl up. And I can tell you: the limit of only learning one spell per day is also a big hindrance if you are on a tight schedule.

You should've looked at my update to the Easy Bake Wizard...

[Phaederkiel]

link please.

Or rather: can you be bothered to explain the concept in short?

and then: how probable is it that our wizard in question is as crazy prepared as your baker will probably be?

[JusticeZero]

How about this:

Wizard no longer gets spells for free when leveling.

Wizard continues to get lots of scrolls. The scrolls they are getting so far are probably level 1-3.
However, the levels of the scrolls will not increase appreciably. Those higher level spells that you are NOT getting on scrolls honestly have not been researched enough yet; they're basically epic spells of legend that are created by the vanishingly tiny number of high powered wizards. You're either going to need to create them or jump through some hoops to get the two or three other wizard powerhouses in the world to give you a copy.

The result of this is that they will have lots of utility spells of the low powered variety. As they level though, they will be increasingly using metamagic to fill higher level spell slots, because only occasionally and with great deliberation are they given a more powerful spell. As a result, their versatility will increase, but their actual power level will not increase quite so dramatically fast as if they were able to go "oh, just won a fight, ding, i'm picking up Time Stop and Wish".

[Gavinfoxx]

Easy Bake Wizard


Here's the recipe for one of my favorite ways of playing D&D, an Easy Bake Wizard. Put the Sorcerer to shame (well, at anything except metamagic-heavy blasting...sorcerer has a ton of ACF's for that, which you don't get...)!

Easy Bake No "Worries" Wizard

Ingredients:
1 Gray Elf (SRD, MM1)
1 Wizard Class (PHB, SRD)
1 Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level (Races of the Wild)
1 Eidetic Spellcaster Alternative Class Feature (Dragon Magazine #357 -- the core of the build!)
1 Spontaneous Divination Alternative Class Feature (Complete Champion, be sure to check out the errata online! Use this weekly to do lots of divinations to know what spells to prepare!)
1 Collegiate Wizard Feat (Complete Arcane)
1 Aerenal Arcanist feat (Player's Guide to Eberron, optional)
1 Eschew Materials feat (PHB, SRD)
1 Domain Wizard variant, Transmutation or Conjuration domain (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional)
Flaws, to taste (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional, but necessary if you want all those feats by level 3)
Extra bits, optional, see later instructions!

Mix in bowl, and be sure to top with any one of these feats:
Acidic Splatter, Winter's Blast, or Fiery Burst (all from Complete Mage)

Notes: if it doesn't turn out right when playing it in a zero wealth game, you picked bad spells. Be sure to look at the various wizard handbooks for how to pick solid, powerful, versatile spells. And it is very thematic that you can do stuff like leave a slot open to spend 15 minutes preparing the correct spell you need in it, or take Uncanny Forethought or Alacritous Cogitation, or Nexus Method, consider taking those later. And you automatically just 'get' spells like a sorcerer... no need for scrolls or anything. This Wizard idea relies on exactly zero found scrolls and zero need for items to scribe things into his spellbook, and with Eschew Materials and the right spells chosen, doesn't even need a Spell Component Pouch (just don't take any spells with focuses or components more than 5 gp)! Also, some people might think that this trading out the ability to specialize three times, but that isn't what is going on. Due to differing language between the various options, that isn't what's happening. Some of the stuff says that 'if you don't specialize, you can do this', some of the stuff says 'by removing the ability to specialize entirely, you gain this ability.' Order in which the abilities are taken matters.

Further, some more possible ingredients to take include:

-Alacritous Cogitation feat at level 6 (Complete Mage)
-Another Great option for race is a Lesser Fey'ri (Players Guide to Faerun and Races of Faerun) with LA Bought off (the LA buyoff option is in the SRD and Unearthed Arcana; choose the powers to get the minimum LA for that race). This lets you make use of that Alter Self at will; read the handbook on the uses of Alter Self, it's fantastic.
-Get the Nexus Method feat from Dragon Magazine #319! This lets you spontaneously cast the summon monster line, and apparently adds all the spells to your spellbook! If you do this, you probably want the Transmutation Domain rather than the Conjuration Domain, to maximize spells known.
-Another good feat is Greyhawk Method from Dragon Magazine #315. This is very similar to 'Collegiate Wizard', and is arguably a different writeup of this... and it might require GM interpretation if you are in a campaign other than Greyhawk. And it might require GM interpretation if you want to stack it with Collegiate Wizard. However, you should at least consider it.
-Another option is Lesser Celadrin. You combine the rules in Player's Guide to Faerun and the rules in Dragon Magazine #350 to get Lesser Celadrin.
-Also, Fire Elf (UA/SRD) works well too.

-If you ask for houserules, consider these two:
-Permission to house rule that you can take Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) at level 9, with the Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage) and the Eidetic Spellacster ACF taking place of the Spell Mastery prerequisite, without access to the 'spell mastery' capability from that feat
-Hopefully permission to house rule for the character to count Autohypnosis (XPH, SRD) as a class skill, to describe the character's eidetic memory being useful for things other than spellcasting (assuming the GM uses Autohypnosis in his game! Or get it's abilities shunted into Concentration, or whatever)

Some numbers:

Basic Wizard: Start with 3+Int mod L1 spells, +2 each level as baseline
Elf Generalist Wizard: +1 wizard spell at start, +1 each level beyond baseline
Collegiate Wizard: Instead of 3+int and +2 each level, baseline is set at 6+int and +4 each level
Aerenal Arcanist: +1 each level beyond baseline, including L1 if you take it then
Domain Wizard (Transmutation or Conjuration): One specific extra spell of each spell levels; +9 spells over career (cantrip is already known)
Nexus Method: Apparently automatically gets you the entire Summon Monster line!

So at level one, with a 20 int (cause Grey Elf or whatever, or 21 if you start at middle aged...) you know:
13 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain six new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 6 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...

Essentially, you end up with a more versatile Sorcerer, who has access to a TON of spells, and can always get the right spell for the job... even with no gear whatsoever. And no Vow of Poverty (ewww, Exalted! And not able to gather even useful cheap equipment!) needed to be useful without wealth!

Finally, if you want to gain access to even MORE spells, the Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class can be useful. Or, if you have access to wealth by level, than the feat Mercantile Background can get you cheaper scrolls to scribe to your brain.

[Phaederkiel]

yep, okay, this works.

but it needs a) dragon material and b) a who-is-who of broken feats.


collegiate wizard alone handles most of the problems, though.
in Hindsight, I should have taken it. I thought about it, and skipped it. I rued it alot. Oooops. I just see: wizard lvl. My ultimate magus would have benefited only for four lvls. No wizard ever goes straight. Is this problem existent with some other of your feats?

[I'm_On_A_Broom]

Don't forget spell components! If you want your wizard to be a bit more balanced make him find his own! Invisibility for instance requires an eyelash in a bit of gum arabic. He should need to harvest the gum, and he only has so many eyelashes! Remember, in a low magic campaign, these components aren't just found at the local shop, it's up to him to supply his own!

[Gavinfoxx]

Don't forget spell components!

Eschew Materials.. ;) ;)


I just see: wizard lvl. My ultimate magus would have benefited only for four lvls. No wizard ever goes straight. Is this problem existent with some other of your feats?

DMs who don't let you get +2 spells for prestige classes which advance spellcasting of your wizard level are jerks!

[Gavinfoxx]

delete this oops

[ArcturusV]

No, but I THINK it's intended to be that way GavinFoxx. If you check classes that specifically say "Advances Wizard Casting" rather than generic "You may be a spontaneous caster who actually has a Spells Known table" Arcane Caster progression (Like the Racial Paragons for example), the ones that say they advance Wizard Progression alone don't actually mention gaining new spells for leveling up.

So it's perfectly reasonable to figure that the "And spells known" means "As per the SPells Known Table" not "The spellbook ability of the wizard as well".

[Phaederkiel]

okay, eschew materials. Costs a feat though. At some point, he will run out of possibilities to stop you from hindering him.

And no, the Dm is not a jerk. He is just using the brakes the system has built in to stop wizard from dominating everything.
Yeah, most people ignore those brakes.
The result: Wizards dominate everything. Threads like this.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Nitpick: taking away a wizard's spellbook doesn't stop him. It only slows him down.

A wizard can scribe any spell he currently has memorized in a -new- spell book with no chance of failure. Creating duplicate spellbooks costs half as much time and gold as scribing from memory or learning a new spell.

On the enforcing components idea. It's just not a very good idea. At most, it will be an issue until the wizard gets his next feat when he takes eschew materials to bypass this irritating and unecessary restriction that's mostly just an in-joke that Gygax and Arneson wrote into the original game. That is to say, "It's just a feat tax."

[Harlot]

Gone 24 Hours and look and behold: MORE answers and a bit of banter. Gotta love it. I only wish I had known about the whole wizard issue before I started DMing, so I could have gotten all of this brilliant advice beforehand, but alas, though I have played for years, I've really never thought about the work and wonder of wizards, always playing some sort of tank myself. But thank you all for your kind effort trying to save my ass. You are GREAT!

Thought I might comment a bit:


Wizards are only half as overpowered if they cannot rest a lot an prepare in advance. GIve them something they have to do on time and watch him work uphill. And make sure he never gets another scroll.
These scrolls are your immedieate problem, make sure he needs to use as many as you can manage in as little time as possible.
I mean, how many spells can he prepare per day? 6 first, 4 second, or something like this. Half of the prepared spells are usually prepared in vain. A long day will tear his scroll resources to nothing. Especially if you are mean and give 3 encounters to the party which are built the same way. The first he will dominate, but it is unlikely he has prepared the same spells three times.

Yes, the problem are those blasted scrolls - he has like 70 or something, so it will take quite a while to burn through them, but yes, a few hard days of travel with continuous lowlevel attacks hindering sleep etc. might be the solution. That would force him to burn of at least some of the scrolls.
Just how can I make sure he never gets another scroll? How much time does it take to copy a spell to a scroll to use for later? If I don't allow him too much rest, will that stop him from making scrolls?


darkness takes away line of sight, can be easily countered by a light spell, but it burns resources. silence takes away the verbal component of is spells, there are a few that don't have one, but not many. also, he is limited to a certain number of spell per day, you can do thing like make an encounter seem like "the big one" when the big one is actually waiting for after he has cast both second level spells. or even just a gauntlet of low level encounters to whittle down the parties resources

Thanks for clarifying. Darkness makes sense, specially if I make them travel and fight at night, which again fits the storyline neatly.
... but as long as he has those damn scrolls, cant he just keep on pulling them up and blast whatever he wants? I mean, there's really no limit to number of scrolls a day, is there? Isn't that the whole idea of scrolls? As I wrote earlier: since they're scrolls; rolled up and put into tubes and sealed of and placed in his backpack ... doesn't it take some sort of action to actually find the scroll he needs and open it and use it? Seems odd to me that he can fire off an new scroll every six seconds?


Wizard continues to get lots of scrolls. The scrolls they are getting so far are probably level 1-3.
However, the levels of the scrolls will not increase appreciably. Those higher level spells that you are NOT getting on scrolls honestly have not been researched enough yet; they're basically epic spells of legend that are created by the vanishingly tiny number of high powered wizards. You're either going to need to create them or jump through some hoops to get the two or three other wizard powerhouses in the world to give you a copy.


Yeah. Only I might have screwed this up as well: As for obtaining higher level spells as this is low magic world, we kind of made a deal that he can't buy them but has to exchange scrolls with dodgy people (if he can find them! They're not always on the market!) in a 1:4 (lvl. 2) or 1:8 (lvl 1) ratio. (IE to get one new level 3 spell/scroll he has to sacrifice 8 level 1 scrolls.) I'm not sure how much it will slow him down, though.
But yes, limiting access to spells/scrolls in some way makes sense. He has to work to get them. This might include limiting acces to spell components, hadn't thought of that, some of the more exotic ingridients won't be available to him.



No, that's precisely incorrect. Scrolls, as your quote shows, use the minimum CL and ability score (and therefore the minimum DC) that the creator could have had. Staffs, on the other hand, are the magic items designed to let you use your own CL/ability score/DC boosts.
Was this the final say in that discussion?


and I like the idea with the blind monster. A Monk with blindfight, pierce magical concealment and a high grapple score could do wonders, especially if he is able to use darkness as an advantage, so the rogue cannot save the wizard by sneaking the monk.
Yeah, I am warming up to that as well.

Again: Thank you for your time and effort: you've helped me a lot, not just solving my initial dilemma with the apprehension/ambush, but more generally helping me 'coping with wizards'. I hope and actually believe that putting your ideas to good use, I'll be able to make the game a bit more balanced (at least when he's burned off his stash of scrolls) and more fun for everyone, even at the higher levels. Including the wizard, who likes a challenge too. Really, the PC is a great guy - that he outsmarts me doesn't make him unfair, just makes me work harder.

More melee, more darkness, more blindfight, and smarter enemies
- less scrolls, less scrolls, less scrolls :-)

THANKS
/Harlot

[ArcturusV]

Well, the problem with scrolls isn't JUST his stockpile (By the way, you might want to run Encumbrance on those Scrolls so he's not actually carrying 70 at once. Make them weigh a pound each, logical for the case, the scroll, protection on the case so it's rugged enough for travel, etc) it's that making scrolls is incredibly cheap for a Wizard, and in a world like this, it's incredibly useful.

Presuming he didn't trade away his Scroll Scribing at level 1 for some alternate class feature, he can make his own out of any spell he knows. Scroll costs are pretty damned cheap. To make a scroll of a 1st level spell, like Color Spray, all he needs to spend is 12 GP and 1 XP. What else is he going to spend his cash on? Not like he needs to buy magic armor and such. If he picks up Craft Wondrous Items at 3rd level (Or at level 5 if he hasn't already) he can basically make almost anything he wants Item Wise. MAAAAAYBE pick up Craft Rod for Metamagicing Rods later.

So for the cost of 96 GP and 8 XP by the exchange rate you have, he can get a level 3 scroll. Which he can then scribe to his spellbook (And shouldn't have a problem passing the check presuming he's maxed ranks), learning a new level 3 spell. Which he can then make scrolls of for 60 GP and 5 XP. Again, a pittance. But 3rd level spells include a lot of "Shuts down encounters" stuff. And all of this is well within his Wealth By Level gain, so that it's barely a drop in the bucket.

What you'd really have to do to reign it in, is sharply limit item creation, regardless of if it's scrolls, potions, wondrous items, etc. Old school "Riddle Crafting" is one option. Where in order to make some Headband of Intelligence your Wizard has to quest for vague parts to craft it like "The Nightmares of a Beholder" or something.

Or perhaps more reasonably say something like Scrolls can only be penned in ink that is mixed with Dragon's blood. You want a scroll? Go kill a dragon. Make sure that he can't "harvest" enough Dragon's blood to make something like 200 scrolls off a single kill, but more like 2 scrolls (Got to distill the blood, etc, so that most of it gets "Wasted").

You can follow similar logic if he ranks up to other options. Like... Wands need to be cut out of the heartwood of a Treant. Or a Ring forged from an ingot of some rare mineral.

This also means that loot will be more under your own control and less "Oh, while we're in town the wizard spent 200 GP and 25 XP to craft something".

[Flickerdart]

Well, the problem with scrolls isn't JUST his stockpile (By the way, you might want to run Encumbrance on those Scrolls so he's not actually carrying 70 at once. Make them weigh a pound each, logical for the case, the scroll, protection on the case so it's rugged enough for travel, etc) it's that making scrolls is incredibly cheap for a Wizard, and in a world like this, it's incredibly useful.
You can scribe multiple spells on a single scroll, so you don't need an individual case for every scrolled spell you have.

[Phaederkiel]

how does he do have 70 scrolls by lvl 4?

a) if he does not make them all himself, it breaks the wealth per lvl by some hundred percent.

b) if he makes them, how does he find the time? He can only ever make one scroll per day. He should not have had 70 day for scrollmaking, if you are playing a stringent adventure. Had you allowed the characters half a year of intime-downtime, or what happened? In this case, he should have blasted his xp a great deal, and should not be able to lvl up as soon as the other guys. Sure experience is a river, but he should be drowning by now.


Since all this does not add up well, I think you should presume some kind of foul play, or at least a grave rule error on his side. Get yourself a list of all his scrolls. Ask him how he got them.

And even if no foul play has happened, you should know what he has. Then look at his list for weak points. Even with 70 scrolls, he cannot have prepared enough spells for every situation. Make him solve the same situation again, and again, until his stache is depleted.

Additionally, keep him under a tight schedule, so he cannot refresh this resource.

Can you give us a basic outline what feast he has?

[TuggyNE]

how does he do have 70 scrolls by lvl 4?

a) if he does not make them all himself, it breaks the wealth per lvl by some hundred percent.

If they're mostly level 1 spells, no it doesn't; 70 level 1 scrolls have a market value of 1750gp, which should be well within WBL. (I think they're technically in WBL for level 2, in fact.)

[GoddessSune]

Hi

The world started out with no magic at all, gradually I've introduced magic matching whichever level they are at, but magic items are very scarce.
Now regardless of these limitations, even at these low levels he still kicks ass,

Welcome to the Low Magic World Problem! (Hope everyone reads this good example you gave)

The problem is simple:If you have a Low Magic World, then any magic is two or three (or ten) times stronger then it should be. You can't have a Low Magic World and then use the Wizard out of the book and use all the normal magic rules. Scrolls are magic items, so by your setting should be very scarce....so what happened? How did he get a bunch of very rare and scarce magic items? Maybe you should have changed something?

The easy if is just more magic. The harder fix is stratagems, tricks and such.

[Harlot]

Again: Thank you guys for helping me out, as a rookie your help is priceless.

Phaederkiel, you wrote:


b) if he makes them, how does he find the time? He can only ever make one scroll per day. He should not have had 70 day for scrollmaking, if you are playing a stringent adventure. Had you allowed the characters half a year of intime-downtime, or what happened?

GoddessSune, same gist:

How did he get a bunch of very rare and scarce magic items? Maybe you should have changed something?

I screwed up, that's what happened: due to the narrative of the story I decided to give them three months of 'downtime'. Being a newbie DM and not really familiar with wizards, preferring tanks myself, I did NOT realise what an epic mistake THAT was. So the PC informed me that during that downtime he would scribe loads of scrolls, buying them off with XP, and being so inexperienced as a DM, I simply did not at that time realise the magnitude of my error. There was no foul play, only an inexperienced DM. I do hope other beginners read this thread and avoid the pitfalls I so clumsily have thrown myself into.


In this case, he should have blasted his xp a great deal, and should not be able to lvl up as soon as the other guys. Sure experience is a river, but he should be drowning by now.

Well, that's a relief. And as you guys now kindly inform me that he can only make a scroll a day, I predict that the forthcoming sessions will consist of a ****load of hard travel with continuous attacks and hardly any rest (they are travelling through a warzone, so that is easily explainable) so that I can at least hope to put a dent into his stockpile of scrolls. (Thanks for presenting this solution to me in various answers.)



And even if no foul play has happened, you should know what he has. Then look at his list for weak points. Even with 70 scrolls, he cannot have prepared enough spells for every situation. Make him solve the same situation again, and again, until his stache is depleted.
Can you give us a basic outline what feast he has?

Yes, just found his original list of scrolls: seems it was 90 scrolls = 3 months of downtime. :-(

10 Scorcing Ray
30 Summon Monster II
10 Mirror Image
10 Invisibility
10 Shoking grasp
2 Identify
10 Colorspray
10 Disguise self


At this point I think he's used maybe half of the invisibility scrolls (btw we had a discussion about that, whether it was 10 minutes or 1 min/level due to different editions of PHB? I ruled 1 minute) and maybe 10 of his ridiculous amount of summon monster II (He seems to prefer the giant centipedes.)
Weak points? I'd love your help!!

Arcturus V

So for the cost of 96 GP and 8 XP by the exchange rate you have, he can get a level 3 scroll. Which he can then scribe to his spellbook (And shouldn't have a problem passing the check presuming he's maxed ranks), learning a new level 3 spell. Which he can then make scrolls of for 60 GP and 5 XP. Again, a pittance. But 3rd level spells include a lot of "Shuts down encounters" stuff. And all of this is well within his Wealth By Level gain, so that it's barely a drop in the bucket.

GoddessSune

The easy if is just more magic. The harder fix is stratagems, tricks and such.


I see your points:
I will absolutely amp up the magic in my universe overall. Low magic worlds appearently work just opposite of what I thought. Another rookie mistake *sigh*. I'll remember that. But as immediate solutions, how about these? (they may annoy the PC but fit the storyline:)
A) I've coerced them to leave the capitol so less spells should be available. They may simply travel between villages with no spells/scrolls available. Magic is quite rare after all. And they are travelling in a warzone.
B) From the very start I've held them on a meager budget and they just had to spend most of their savings reviving the wizard since he actually managed to get himself killed (ambush, invisible attackers and the group split up + his dices failed him) so they don't have that much money. Making it hard to obtain the spell components needed makes sense too. As for loot, instead of gold I could let the fighter and rogue obtain some magic weapons that they would want to keep, not sell: The group overall is rewarded, the wizard specifically is not.
C) this whole thread started with me planning an ambush. The easy but maybe borderline unfair solution would be, if I managed to imprison them, to simply confiscate some of his scrolls (ofcourse along with some some items off of the rogue and fighter as well.) But I must admit that I am not really happy about this solution. I don't think the PC has cheated, just used the loopholes he was presented with, and this does feel a bit like cheating him.

Again, thanks for helping me. Next session is 1 week away, and I already feel very confident about it. You are the best.

/Harlot

[Randomguy]

I see your points:
I will absolutely amp up the magic in my universe overall. Low magic worlds appearently work just opposite of what I thought. Another rookie mistake *sigh*. I'll remember that. But as immediate solutions, how about these? (they may annoy the PC but fit the storyline:)

Note that you can just amp up the amount of divine casters and sorcerers, and not the amount of wizards, so he'll have a harder time getting more powerful.

[Arundel]

I seem to recall a solution to a similar "low magic world" problem a while back that resolved to making magic items common but also very low levels of magic. They increased in power over time as they bonded with the wearer, I think is was based on the ancestral/legacy weapons rules. This could be a way to ramp up magic and help the mundanes in the party while also keeping the wizard in low levels of magic starvation.

Other favored tactic for wizard spell wasting is counter-spells. If the party is being hunted by the world government, then certainly they have taken steps to neutralize the wizard? A counter-spell focused sorcerer is typically a terrible PC, but can make for an interesting NPC opponent.

[Phaederkiel]

There was no foul play, only an inexperienced DM. I do hope other beginners read this thread and avoid the pitfalls I so clumsily have thrown myself into.


yes, this is a fine example of an old problem. If it is any help to you, this can also happen to dms with more experience. In my current campaign, a wu jen ( a very weak class) with only 2 spells per lvl managed to make me constantly plan arround her with sudden maximise and the lowly fireball.



Well, that's a relief. And as you guys now kindly inform me that he can only make a scroll a day, I predict that the forthcoming sessions will consist of a ****load of hard travel with continuous attacks and hardly any rest (they are travelling through a warzone, so that is easily explainable) so that I can at least hope to put a dent into his stockpile of scrolls. (Thanks for presenting this solution to me in various answers.)



sounds like a plan.
The list you presented is a bit too combat heavy for my liking. I think disguise self and invisibility are more of a problem than the damage spells.
Since he has neither a rack full of divination (THAT would be the worst case scenario), nor has put a focus on really strong spells, you will able to get through. He has, for example, no way to cast water breathing. three words: make swim checks matter. And make it something where he has to get through, so he cannot solve it by SM2.




I see your points:
I will absolutely amp up the magic in my universe overall. Low magic worlds appearently work just opposite of what I thought. Another rookie mistake *sigh*. I'll remember that. But as immediate solutions, how about these? (they may annoy the PC but fit the storyline:)
A) I've coerced them to leave the capitol so less spells should be available. They may simply travel between villages with no spells/scrolls available. Magic is quite rare after all. And they are travelling in a warzone.
B) From the very start I've held them on a meager budget and they just had to spend most of their savings reviving the wizard since he actually managed to get himself killed (ambush, invisible attackers and the group split up + his dices failed him) so they don't have that much money. Making it hard to obtain the spell components needed makes sense too. As for loot, instead of gold I could let the fighter and rogue obtain some magic weapons that they would want to keep, not sell: The group overall is rewarded, the wizard specifically is not.
C) this whole thread started with me planning an ambush. The easy but maybe borderline unfair solution would be, if I managed to imprison them, to simply confiscate some of his scrolls (ofcourse along with some some items off of the rogue and fighter as well.) But I must admit that I am not really happy about this solution. I don't think the PC has cheated, just used the loopholes he was presented with, and this does feel a bit like cheating him.

Again, thanks for helping me. Next session is 1 week away, and I already feel very confident about it. You are the best.

/Harlot


a and b are very good, i would shy from c. If you have to do c, go to him beforehand and tell him: your scrolls are breaking the group. I am going to steal them and reward you with something less troublesome. Classical gentlemens agreement. You dont use wish, I don't use clockwork horror.

Clockwork horror's disjunction is btw a good (and at least on paper) low-cr way to destroy his scrollstache, if the need really arises. Just now that it is bad style.

Can you nevertheless tell us the make up of his charakter?Feats, important skills?

And shouldn't he be two lvls behind the party? revive is costly xp-wise.

[Harlot]

Again, thanks for spending time helping me! It is very much appreciated.

Randomguy:

Note that you can just amp up the amount of divine casters and sorcerers, and not the amount of wizards, so he'll have a harder time getting more powerful.
Brilliant advice - will do :-)

Arundel:

Other favored tactic for wizard spell wasting is counter-spells. If the party is being hunted by the world government, then certainly they have taken steps to neutralize the wizard? A counter-spell focused sorcerer is typically a terrible PC, but can make for an interesting NPC opponent.
Yes, they're wanted, not yet hunted, but OH, they will be (*DM snickering*) And yes, I believe the Evil Empire that's after them will suddenly have sorcerers at its disposal. Who would have thought?
Funny thing is, I just read up on counterspelling today, before reading your post, considered this solution. and then wondered: is counterspelling a hostile act, which will render an invisible counterspelling wizard visible? I mean, it is not an aggressive act in and by itself (it's not an attack, arguably it's a sort of defense) BUT then again, as I understand it, a spell which is designed to cause direct damage renders the caster visible, regardless of the target and purpose of the casting? Thus counterspelling, say, Colourspray with Colourspray would make the counterspelling caster visible, wouldn't it?
Well, ofcourse their counterspelling NPC opponent doesn't HAVE to be invisible, but it would be cool if he was, because the PC has used invisibility quite a lot.

Phaederkiel

three words: make swim checks matter. And make it something where he has to get through, so he cannot solve it by SM2.

You know, suddenly I think they will be crossing quite a few rivers on their journey north :-)


a and b are very good, i would shy from c. If you have to do c, go to him beforehand and tell him: your scrolls are breaking the group. I am going to steal them and reward you with something less troublesome. Classical gentlemens agreement. You dont use wish, I don't use clockwork horror.
Thanks for your feedback, glad the solutions are viable. And yes, we agree on C. That would feel a bit like cheating.
I can talk to the PC, no problem. The thing is though, it would be really cool if, even with all of my errors and his cunning, I could work around it and still challenge him without solving it 'off game'. Oh, and just looked up Clockwork Horrors: Nasty!


Can you nevertheless tell us the make up of his charakter?Feats, important skills?

And shouldn't he be two lvls behind the party? revive is costly xp-wise

Sure, thanks for helping:
This is from a while back, I can't seem to find a copy of his latest character sheet. (Looking at this, I think he is actually only level 3? I think he didn't level up to level 4 when the two others did. (I know, I know, as a DM I should bloody well KNOW this. ARGH!) Well, saying he is level 3, I can't remember if him not leveling up was due to him having spent XP on scrolls or if this was also caused by XP loss after the resurrection, I honestly don't know. I'll just ask him if he remembered leveling down after dying. If he didn't ... I will be very upset with him indeed. Thats where the Clockwork Horrors come in handy.

STATS:
Str 8 Saves:
Dex 18 Fort 5
Con 18 Ref 0
Int 18 Will 1
Wis 6
Chr. 7

Feats: Toughness, improved initiative

Initiative is +8 so he is pretty damn fast.

He's taken ranks in these skills (number = rank + ability, i.e. the total bonus):

Appraise (Int) 9
Concentration (Con) 10
Decipher Script (Int) 8
Knowledge (Int) (arkana) 10
Listen 6
Search (Int) 10
Spellcraft (Int) 10
Spot 6

Again, again, again: Thanx SO much for your combined efforts helping me out. I am very grateful.

/Harlot

[dascarletm]

Sorry if someone said this:

For low magic, to not make the casters more powerful, make them find material components and track them, even the "free" ones. With no wizards everywhere getting bat guano and other things would be interesting, and look very strange.

[ArcturusV]

Actually Dascarletm there reminded me of something else. If your players have the mindset for it, try to reward your Non-Wizard more for thinking their way around encounters. Well, Wizard too I suppose if he can think of it. But usually, especially with that many scrolls, they think in terms of brute magical force instead.

It's something I kinda remember more from earlier editions rather than later ones. For example, there was a Mold type monster who was weak against Vinegar. Since it hung out in old, abandoned places you could usually try to raid a wine cellar or something where some old bottles had turned. You turned a very hard fight into "I throw a few bottles at it. Win."

In a low magic world encounters with abilities like that are more important. Particularly since, by maintaining proper feeling for Low Magic, your Fighter and Rogue won't usually have the "golf bag" of weapons.

Fighter: What do you recommend?
Caddy: Ah sir, it's a fiend from the abyss. May I suggest the +2 Silver Greatsword?
Fighter: Naaah. Think I'll go with my Holy Frostbrand Battleaxe.

So since the Fighter, and Rogue, is less likely to have a collection of gear to give them JUST the bonus they need, stuff with a lot of DR, Regeneration, etc, needs to be dealt with in a different way. Not likely to happen right now at level 4ish. But it's something where you're soon gonna start running into the realm of encounters that have these abilities. Trolls, Demons, etc, coming out of the Monster Manual.

So having different, somewhat "mundane" ways to deal with it becomes important when your players (Due to few magic items) won't be able to pull out that Axiomatic Acid Seeping Flaming Rapier of Destruction.

Giving monsters Magical and Mundane weaknesses is one. Allowing "mundane" things to confer magical benefits is another, like letting a character who say... wraps a rosaries around his hilt and forearm, chanting prayers to the Gods of Light bypass some DR/Good, or similar things.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sorry if someone said this:

For low magic, to not make the casters more powerful, make them find material components and track them, even the "free" ones. With no wizards everywhere getting bat guano and other things would be interesting, and look very strange.

This will just be a waste of everyone's time until the wizard makes it to level 6.

It will be tedious and annoying and the wizard will take eschew materials at the earliest opportunity.

Don't irritate yourself and all of your players by making serious what Gynax and Arneson added to the game as a joke.

[Flickerdart]

With no wizards everywhere getting bat guano and other things would be interesting, and look very strange.
That's what your familiar is for.

[dascarletm]

This will just be a waste of everyone's time until the wizard makes it to level 6.

It will be tedious and annoying and the wizard will take eschew materials at the earliest opportunity.

Don't irritate yourself and all of your players by making serious what Gynax and Arneson added to the game as a joke.

Well obviously eschew materials wouldn't be a thing, and as all variants that directly effect the characters/de-power them you'll need to see that they are on-board/would enjoy doing that. I intentionally made a character that tracked his material components/used the metamagic component variant from UA/was researching his own. I liked it, but not everyone likes excel as much as I, and wouldn't recommend forcing this on anyone by any means.

I ended up developing a school around the concept. The Material Arcane. With such teachings as, all magic does is amplify/change preexisting matter.... themes of Full Metal Alchemist... etc.

[Phaederkiel]

Thanks for your feedback, glad the solutions are viable. And yes, we agree on C. That would feel a bit like cheating.
I can talk to the PC, no problem. The thing is though, it would be really cool if, even with all of my errors and his cunning, I could work around it and still challenge him without solving it 'off game'. Oh, and just looked up Clockwork Horrors: Nasty!


I like your style. I would play under you :smallsmile:

And about the horrors: I think all the community here is agreeing that those are stupidly broken. I think Mages Disjunction recently won a poll for the worst spell in the game, etc.




Sure, thanks for helping:
This is from a while back, I can't seem to find a copy of his latest character sheet. (Looking at this, I think he is actually only level 3? I think he didn't level up to level 4 when the two others did. (I know, I know, as a DM I should bloody well KNOW this. ARGH!) Well, saying he is level 3, I can't remember if him not leveling up was due to him having spent XP on scrolls or if this was also caused by XP loss after the resurrection, I honestly don't know. I'll just ask him if he remembered leveling down after dying. If he didn't ... I will be very upset with him indeed. Thats where the Clockwork Horrors come in handy.

STATS:
Str 8 Saves:
Dex 18 Fort 5
Con 18 Ref 0
Int 18 Will 1
Wis 6
Chr. 7

Feats: Toughness, improved initiative

Initiative is +8 so he is pretty damn fast.



HOW! the heck did he get max scores in the only three scores a wizard need?
what kind of point buy are we talking? Do Rogue and fighter have equally overpowered and minmaxed statbuys? Or did this guy just get incredibly lucky using the dice method?

The pointbuy as such is about 100% better than it should be for most games.

Especially in contrast with a feat like toughness. The corest of bad core feats.
Imp Ini is great, but does equally not show a lot inspiration. You are lucky, he does not know the bad feats. Or you did seriously hamper his selection.

Consider what he would have done with the scrolls and a feat like metamagic school focus...

And do not worry, it always happens. With me, it happens the other way around: I know their characters better than they do...




Appraise (Int) 9
Concentration (Con) 10
Decipher Script (Int) 8
Knowledge (Int) (arkana) 10
Listen 6
Search (Int) 10
Spellcraft (Int) 10
Spot 6

/Harlot

Again, how did that happen? Listen = 6, Spot= 6 ? how does he, with his stupidly minmaxed wis 6 get a perception check to 6?
THose are cross-class for him. which means max lvl is (charlvl +3 ) / 2, which should be either way 3.

3 minus 2 (because he has such a bad perception modifier) is 1. So how come the 6? even with masterwork tools, he can't go above 3. His familiar gives him alertness, make it 5. What happened here?

[Harlot]

As always, to all of you wonderful people: thanks for helping!

On the overall discussion about making the wizard work harder for spell components, there seem to be both pro and cons. I agree that sending the party on detours looking for spell components sounds annoying and that this is not a viable solution long term, because he will counter by taking eschew materials asap. But as he is so strong already - at least compared to the wusses of my made up world - I simply have to limit his acces to spells somehow. I am leaning toward the simple solution of keeping the group from the larger cities (no spells, scrolls or wizard-encounters) but with highend loot for the tank and rogue. Storywise, it makes sense - they're wanted, soon to be hunted, in a warzone etc. - staying away from the larger cities makes sense.

ArcturusV

Actually Dascarletm there reminded me of something else. If your players have the mindset for it, try to reward your Non-Wizard more for thinking their way around encounters. Well, Wizard too I suppose if he can think of it. But usually, especially with that many scrolls, they think in terms of brute magical force instead.
You know, the last session contained hardly any fighting at all, just a lot of figuring stuff out and detective work and talking their way out of things. I was afraid the group would find it boring. Instead they told me unprompted that they liked it. I get your idea, and like it, but it does take more of an effort on my part. The group is all of them heavy on the offense, so yes, challenging that makes sense. I have to ponder how to do it though, but I like the challenge.


So having different, somewhat "mundane" ways to deal with it becomes important when your players (Due to few magic items) won't be able to pull out that Axiomatic Acid Seeping Flaming Rapier of Destruction.

Giving monsters Magical and Mundane weaknesses is one. Allowing "mundane" things to confer magical benefits is another, like letting a character who say... wraps a rosaries around his hilt and forearm, chanting prayers to the Gods of Light bypass some DR/Good, or similar things.

Already played with that idea a bit earlier on, and the PC's liked it, so I'll continue down that path. But I will also amp up the magic and grant the rogue and the fighter more golfclubs to choose from :-)

Phaederkiel_

HOW! the heck did he get max scores in the only three scores a wizard need?
what kind of point buy are we talking? Do Rogue and fighter have equally overpowered and minmaxed statbuys? Or did this guy just get incredibly lucky using the dice method?

Houserules + luck!:
Rolling stats, we always roll 6 d20 ONCE. You get to reroll the lowest roll once, but if you reroll, you have to keep the second roll, even if it is lower than the first.
And then you get to distribute the points however you like, so min-maxing is basically free. I don't recall it ever being an issue, but then again, I never was the DM!
Funny thing is, I actually rolled his stats and texted them to him. His lucky day.

The rogue and fighter are not as min-maxed as the wizard.


Again, how did that happen? Listen = 6, Spot= 6 ? how does he, with his stupidly minmaxed wis 6 get a perception check to 6?
THose are cross-class for him. which means max lvl is (charlvl +3 ) / 2, which should be either way 3.

3 minus 2 (because he has such a bad perception modifier) is 1. So how come the 6? even with masterwork tools, he can't go above 3. His familiar gives him alertness, make it 5. What happened here?

I guess he forgot, and I didn't realise those skills are cross class at double point cost. It should be 3 then: -2 from his ability score +2 from his familiar and then 3 ranks as they're cross class and he's spent 6 skillpoints on this. THANKS for pointing this out to me. I'll have him adjust his chart, seems to be an overall error. Or I'll probably do it, I have to up my game, don't I?

Just thought: His willpower save is fairly low, which is quite good isn't it? I mean, illusionist spells would work fairly well against him in general, would they not? I'll run through the spell lists and figure out what sort of spells all of those sorcerers I'll pour into the game should have available when facing him.

Again, thanks for helping me out! Without you, I'd be screwed :-)

/Harlot

[Phaederkiel]

oh, and I just saw it:

Cha 7 means he cannot talk really good. Wis 6 means, he does not know it.
Just make a target of the wizard in social encounters. He can get a taste of being bad at something, while the rogue can make up for his blunders and save his bacon.

Oh, and i loathe to break it to you: that houserule is simply bad.
not only it allows some character to become superpowered, it also means that most characters run around and have a stat at less than 8, which should be quite an abnormity.

Perhaps this should be addressed first. If the wiz got that lucky, and the other guys didn't, he would also dominate the game as a barbarian.
I'd try to make the guy LOATHE (yay, used that nice word twice in a row) his low wisdom score. A good deal of things can force willsaves, especially visions of absolute power, or greed. Then offer them a pointbuy AS A BOON.

[Harlot]

Phaederkiel

I'd try to make the guy LOATHE (yay, used that nice word twice in a row) his low wisdom score. A good deal of things can force willsaves, especially visions of absolute power, or greed. Then offer them a pointbuy AS A BOON.

Yup! His character is poor and actively seeks power and wealth so I'l try to explore that to the fullest. Also, following your advice and others' I spent quite some time yesterday researching what clerics can do - using divine magic against the wizard and exploiting that ridiculously low wisdom score.
LOADS of options with willpower saves, even from quite low levels, so that is definately the path I'll go.
I mean, a couple of clerics using lowlevel spells like doom, command or hold person could cause quite a bit of trouble.

Basically all of my troubles are caused by me not having researched wizards and magic well enough before I started DM'ing one. But I'm catching up :-)

The houserule may be bad. Too late to change the stats now, though I do like your idea of offering them pointbuy as a boon.

Thanx!
/Harlot

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, a Cleric can mess up a Wizard's day pretty hard. Keep in mind that Clerics also have most of the best divination spells available to them (And at earlier levels), so a Cleric enemy should act like he knows fairly well what's going on in the world and relating to his plans, compared to other classes.

After all, he regularly chats with a God.

[Harlot]

Thank you all for all of your help.

'As I think a lot of new DM's could learn a lot from this thread and all of the errors I've made (and because I have nothing better to do) I am in the process of organising and slightly editing all of your brilliant advice on coping with wizards, collecting it all in a document entitled: "Don't be as stupid as I was: Do's and don'ts when you're a rookie DM trying to cope with wizards." with the intention of not just keeping it to myself for reference, but of sharing it here at the Playground. Crediting whoever needs to be credited ofcourse.

Just so that people in the same situation could just get the quick overview and then look further into the thread for details.

But: I am quite new to this forum. Would that sort of 'compilation' based on a thread be an OK thing to edit/write and share, or would I be breaking some unwritten rule? I would not take credit for anything and don't want to offend anyone.

Also: My first idea was to just attach the document as a pdf in the thread. But it seems that I cannot upload a pdf and attach it to the thread itself. So I'd have to sort of post it as a very long reply. Is there a limit to length?

Or some other place here at the Playground for exactly this sort of thing?

- also: I will, ofcourse keep you posted on how I coped with the wizard following your advice. Not sure if it's that interesting to many people but I'll do it because I personally have read a few threads like this, people asking for help on this and that, and a lot of the time, you never get to hear how it all worked out, and that annoys me.

And: Just made paladin and cleric NPC's today. Yay! So looking forward to using them.

/Harlot

[Gavinfoxx]

Thank yI am in the process of organising and slightly editing all of your brilliant advice on coping with wizards, collecting it all in a document entitled: "Don't be as stupid as I was: Do's and don'ts when you're a rookie DM trying to cope with wizards." with the intention of not just keeping it to myself for reference, but of sharing it here at the Playground.

Something like this thread?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4189.0

[TuggyNE]

But: I am quite new to this forum. Would that sort of 'compilation' based on a thread be an OK thing to edit/write and share, or would I be breaking some unwritten rule? I would not take credit for anything and don't want to offend anyone.

Sure, go for it.


Also: My first idea was to just attach the document as a pdf in the thread. But it seems that I cannot upload a pdf and attach it to the thread itself. So I'd have to sort of post it as a very long reply. Is there a limit to length?

I'd recommend splitting it across multiple posts, as is standard for handbooks; each post is limited to 50000 characters.

[Harlot]

@Gavinfoxx - thanks for the link. Yes, something like that! Might post some thing there as well (if its not already covered. Should have started out by reading there obviously, before commencing on the whole DM thingy.)
But my idea was simply, that since I'll make a recap of this thread for myself in a more easily read format, could I somehow that with others reading this.
Seems thats OK, and as Tuggyne proposes, I'll split it up if the need arises.
Thank you for helping me out all the way!

/Harlot

[Harlot]

Compilation/highligts of this thread, for quick reference. For details, see the whole thread.
Credits: Agincourt, Ahenobarbi, Angry_bear, Arbane, ArcturusV, Arundel, Blightedmarsh, Buttcyst, dascarletm, Flickerdart, gavinFoxx, GoddessSune, Ignominia, I'm_on_a_broom, JusticeZero, Kelb_panthera, mcbobbo, OzymandiasX, Phaederkiel, Raendyn, RagnaroksChosen, randomguy, Tuggyne, Tvtyrant, Twopair THANK YOU!!!

Handling wizards overall:

Clerics can mess up a Wizard's day pretty hard, as they have most of the best divination spells available to them (And at earlier levels). A Cleric enemy should act like he knows fairly well what's going on in the world and relating to his plans, compared to other classes. After all, he regularly chats with a God.

Three words: make swim checks matter. (str.) And make it something where the wizard has to get through, so he cannot solve it by Summon Monster II.

A tactic for wizard spell wasting is counter-spells. A counter-spell focused sorcerer can make for an interesting NPC opponent. Make the enemy primarily non-magical, but give them a single caster (ideally a spontaneous caster) who dedicates all his actions to counter-spelling the wizard.

Keep him under a tight schedule, so he cannot refresh this ressource (no rest/sleep interruptions).

Keep him on a meager budget so he cannot afford to buy scrolls/make scrolls + other magic items.

Let the party travel in areas with no spells/scrolls available (small villages, rough terrain, scarcely populated areas).

Limit spell components.
Pros: Make him find his own. Invisibility requires an eyelash in a bit of gum arabic. He should need to harvest the gum, and he only has so many eyelashes!
Cons: On the enforcing components idea: It's just not a very good idea. At most, it will be an issue until the wizard gets 'eschew materials' feat to bypass this irritating and unecessary restriction

Use his limitations as a tool: incorporate silence, darkness, miss/failure chances. Darkness takes away line of sight, can be easily countered by a light spell, but it burns resources. Silence takes away the verbal component of is spells, there are a few that don't have one, but not many.

Wizards are limited to a certain number of spells per day. Make an encounter seem like "the big one" when the big one is actually waiting for when he has cast his highest level spells. Or run a gauntlet of low level encounters to whittle down the parties resources.

Wizards do NOT like melee:

Play intelligent adversaries smart and have them focus fire on him sometimes, since he is the biggest threat with the lowest hitpoints.

Have them intentionally flank him so that he can't just 5' step away. Let them provoke a melee attack from him (they're not scared of a wizard's staff attack) in order to move into flank position.

Melee rush. At low levels, the wizard won't have most of his key defensive abilities (namely Teleport, Contingency, Celerity or anything that'll let him flee). Having a big fighter charge him during a surprise round, and either simply stay and AoO when he casts, or grapple him, will prevent him doing much damage.


Steal his spellbook. Having an NPC steal his spellbook will prevent the wizard from preparing any spell not already memorised. Taking away a wizard's spellbook doesn't stop him. It only slows him down.

Sticking them in a storm (driving hail is your best bet) forces a DC 10+spell level check to cast anything.

Antimagic Field will do the trick. Either have the party camp in a null magic zone, an AMF trap, a low-leveled caster with a scroll of it, whatever.

Beat them with grappling. A monk will have an easy time getting to the wizard (tumble, fast movement), and succeeding at grappling. Once grappled the wizard is now probably helpless.

Send creepy blind creatures against them.
The wizard is invisible? Big whoop; they can't (and don't need to) see him anyway.
The wizard puts up an illusion? They can't see what isn't there, or what is there for that matter.
Glitterdust? Blind? Darkness? All no good against a creature that doesn't see.

Min/max'ed wizard = (low charisma) means he cannot talk really good. Wis 6 (low wisdom) means, he does not know it. Make a target of the wizard in social encounters. Make the guy LOATHE his low wisdom score: A good deal of things can force willsaves, especially visions of absolute power, or greed. Then offer him a pointbuy AS A BOON.


Ambushing/capturing (the wizard/the party)

Rethink that plot. If you need to coerce them, put an NPC they care about in jeopardy instead
Throw an NPC they know in the prison, in the same cell as the key NPC, and try changing the plot from a breakout to a rescue.
Put the NPC somewhere else, or rearrange the plot to make them less pivotal.

Having a small group "bring them in" might be a way to go. Say 3 Paladins of moderately high level with a Holy Avenger Longsword, something like Human Paladin 5, Human Paladin 6, Human Paladin 10 with a Holy Avenger. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Holy_Avenger) The Holy Avenger in the hands of a Paladin would give the Paladin (and everyone near him) Spell Resistance making it hard to tag him with any Illusions or Evocations. Being of those levels, the Paladins should be able to slice and dice any monsters that get summoned and handle (Though not just manhandling them easily) your Barbarian and Rogue.

Archers:
Pros: They might work, if the wizard hasn't learned spells like Protection from Arrows, Wind Wall, etc.
Use the Volley Rules to effectively negate a lot of defenses like Miss Chance and AC (For every 5 firing in a volley, you inflict X damage where X is the weapon they're using on a target square. Enemies in the square can make a Reflex Save for half damage). Though it might give your Rogue a chance to shine with a decent Reflex Save and Evasion.
Force him to make concentration checks. Archers can ready an action to pepper the wizard with arrows when he starts to cast. At level 4, there's a good chance he'll blow the concentration checks and lose the spell.
Cons: (A third level spell open to evocation is Wind Wall, which shuts down all archers by itself. So archers will stop working in about 5th level if the wizard so chooses.)
Archers aren't particularly great and wizards have a ton of ranged options. Although, if you're planning to ambush the party, and have it all be over in one surprise round, it'd work fine (though in this case, you really don't need to do anything else to incapacitate the wizard).

Use a large amount of stealthy lower level characters with nets, bolas, mancatchers (they're an exotic weapon in complete warrior) and the like. These bounty hunters wouldn't group up, but would spread out and surround the party as well as they could, to not be caught by Color Spray.

A Monk with blindfight, pierce magical concealment and a high grapple score could do wonders, especially if he is able to use darkness as an advantage, so the rogue cannot save the wizard by sneaking the monk.

A couple of rangers with a lot of dogs to send in for melee. Multiple trip attackers makes the rogues stealth much less useful, and if the wizard was planning on going invisible, it doesn't help against the dogs scent ability. If you keep the rangers in some trees, it even prevents the barbarian from being able to charge them easily, allowing them to focus fire on whoever they want, without serious repercussions.

My suggestion is to go with a Triton (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Triton)or two and have them summon a group of Huge Monstrous Centipedes. You get between 2 and 6 of them, and they all have high grapples and poison. (cons./fortitude) The Triton's stand in the back and throw nets/bolas at the party.

You can throw a group of bounty hunters at the party. These bounty hunters are specialists at bringing back captives alive and it would make sense for them to have several grappling specialists (monks or fighters work best at this level). They'd have a few meat shields to secure tactical position, block their grappling allies from being attacked, etc.


Three big tactical errors by me, the newbie DM

It's a bad idea to base sessions upon things going a very certain way (in this case, them being caught).You may end up with no way to progress the story, or you'll be forced to break the rules, which generally causes a lot of resentment if they realise what you're doing (and sometimes even if they don't).
I did not read this: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4189.0
Allowing the wizard 3 (!) months of downtime thus allowing him to make 90 (!) scrolls – basically a buttomless stash.


The problem with Low Magic Worlds overall

Low Magic world really makes Wizards MORE powerful, not less so

If you have a Low Magic World, then any magic is two or three (or ten) times stronger than it should be. You can't have a Low Magic World and then use the Wizard out of the book and use all the normal magic rules.

Scrolls are magic items, so by your setting should be very scarce.

The lack of magic items hurts guys like the Barbarian and Rogue a lot more than it hurts the Wizard.

In a low magic world, give the goodies to the fighters (magic weapons etc.)

The problem here is that a low magic world with a wizard in it is like putting Magneto into a world without mutants. Magical items are disproportionately useful for none-magic classes, as the magic users by their nature already get magic.

As for specific to low magic, remember the drawbacks: somatics, materials, provoking AoOs, etc.

Magic is rare, so make spells difficult to find. No "one from any source for leveling" stuff. But still let spells be available, and encourage spell research.

My GM is very stingy with scrolls and other wizards. I get 2 spells per lvl up. And I can tell you: the limit of only learning one spell per day is also a big hindrance if you are on a tight schedule.

Make magic items common but also very low levels of magic. They increase in power over time as they bond with the wearer (based on the ancestral/legacy weapons rules). This could be a way to ramp up magic and help the mundanes in the party while also keeping the wizard in low levels of magic starvation.

It is also pretty reasonable for a low magic setting for no other casters to have gotten to high enough level to have researched high level spells yet. So barring research time, his high level slots will end up mostly powering metamagic.

You should limit item creation, regardless of if it's scrolls, potions, wondrous items, etc. Old school "Riddle Crafting" is one option. Where in order to make some Headband of Intelligence your Wizard has to quest for vague parts to craft it like "The Nightmares of a Beholder" or something.

Those higher level spells that you are NOT getting on scrolls honestly have not been researched enough yet; they're basically epic spells of legend that are created by the vanishingly tiny number of high powered wizards. You're either going to need to create them or jump through some hoops to get the two or three other wizard powerhouses in the world to give you a copy.

Magic items are scarce so the Fighter, and Rogue will not have stuff with a lot of DR, Regeneration. But you're soon gonna start running into the realm of encounters that have these abilities. Trolls, Demons, etc, coming out of the Monster Manual. So having different, somewhat "mundane" ways to deal with it becomes important when your players (Due to few magic items) won't be able to pull out that Axiomatic Acid Seeping Flaming Rapier of Destruction. Giving monsters Magical and Mundane weaknesses is one. Allowing "mundane" things to confer magical benefits is another, like letting a character who say... wraps a rosaries around his hilt and forearm, chanting prayers to the Gods of Light bypass some DR/Good, or similar things.


THIS was the start of my "The new DM's guide to spellcasters". I am planning to start a new thread on this exact topic, in order to eventually make a real handbook. But this is a nice start.

[Phaederkiel]

I think, tactical errors should contain

"Homerules which I did not knew the implications of."

With stats like this, even a well built barbarian could decidedly rock your boat.

and, also important:

"keep some close tabs on what mr. Batman does, just in case he cannot do it. Wizard resource management is a female dog, and many players will cheat without even noticing."

[ArcturusV]

One of the things to add about Archers? Remember that Archers are, at lower levels, like the Tomahawk Missiles of DnD. They will hit you from places you cannot even see, accurately delivering death.

A wizard's effective range to really reach out and smack someone (barring Teleport to being within range), is 400 + 40 feet per level.

An archer's max range ends up being 1,100 feet. So you need to hit Caster Level 20 to be outranging the archer.

Normally encounters don't start at this range, but a mounted archer can end up effectively doing the Kaufman Retrograde unto victory.

[7thW1ckedness]

On the mundane side of things:

Accidents, Jerks and General bad things. (that don't make the PCs hate you)

-Have clumsy barmaid spill a pint of oil into his backpack followed by accidentally knocking the burning lamp down . . . . . .fire destroys scrolls and spell book.

-Rushing water and the near-fatal swim check . . . . drop the backpack and try not to go under.

-Good liars at the market, use that low wisdom score and have someone bluff the wizard into a bad deal and giving up equipment for pocket change

-Get lost in a difficult to navigate underground pass with no source of light or food, give it a week and someone will end up eating the scrolls, or burning them.

-Gambling at the tavern, card shark cheater. run them up a few hands, then drain their material wealth.

-The "noob" NPC/wannabe wizard NPC, joins the party, takes his turn on watch duty, and tries to "practise" and "learn" using the wizards spellbook and scroll hoard. (this one is actually hilarious to pull on PCs)

-sudden attacks in the night and having to flee, No time to prepare spells for the day, watch what that can do to a wizards inventory in a short while.

Obviously allow reasonable skill checks and saves against all of this so the PCs wont feel rail-roaded out of their gear, and the player feels he had a chance to avoid the outcome.

[Harlot]

Thanks for more input. Must start new thread for this wizard handeling stuff ...

Anyway, just letting you know that we FINALLY had the long expected playsession last night, and I ended up making these changes:

As adviced I changed the plot so instead of ambushing the PC's for them to meet up with the important NPC in prison, I just made one of their allies tell them:" This really important NPC is in prison. Within twelve hours he'll be transported toward the capitol. It's crucial that he's rescued before he gets there." That simple. Now THEY are planning to ambush the transport, making my life so much easier.

And following your advice on the wizard:

Initially I ran them through two rough encounters (first with archers shooting at them from high ground, worked just fine, and then 3 lvl. 5 paladins and a level 2 wizard, in plain melee.) These two encounters almost depleted the wizards scrolls and spells (Turned out, luckily, that the wizard was almost broke at that time when he made the 90 scrolls so he actually could't afford the GP cost. (Which he'd forgotten.) I ruled he was down to 8 scrolls. Again, thanks for the advice on doublechecking the PC's actions there!)

So after those encounters, at that same evening the wizard goes:
"I'll go to my room an prepare a gazillion scrolls."
I go: "No, you can only make scrolls when your spells are actually prepared. So you have to rest first. Then you can scribe the scrolls, but you can only make as many scrolls as you have available spell slots for. And THEN you have to rest again, because you've then spent the spells you have that day making scrolls of them instead. So after making all of those scrolls, you have depleted you magic and have to rest again before having spells to cast. The ambush you're planning is in 12 hours. So either you make scrolls and have no spells tomorrow or you rest and have spells but no scrolls."

(Well at least that is how I interpreted this in PHB p 287 text:


The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.
The pC grudgingly agreed to that. HUZZAH!

Oh, and WHEN they ambush that transport during next session, which they'll probably succeed in, they'll deplete their magic and HP in the process, and THEN I will send in the clerics and ambush them. Because now I know how to do it and I REALLY want to try it out!

[ArcturusV]

Note Harlot, that he can only make one Magic Item a day (Which as far as I could ever tell includes Scrolls), and it requires 8 hours of working in conditions that are deemed acceptable (No distractions, combat, etc).

So even with just a day of downtime, he can only make one scroll, presuming he has the materials (Simple Gold doesn't work, you actually need gold value in materials, inks, parchments, reagents, etc) and the XP.

To get double his amount of spells by scrolling up, he needs double the days that he has spell slots.

The worry is that a lot of adventure modules I've run, have long stretches of "Downtime" journeying to places. Like... the Icewind Dale adventure in Faerun. There's two encounters on the way to Ten Towns... and the trip takes something like 20 days. So barring the two days you actually fight you can end up making 18 scrolls. Which is a LOT of bang for your buck at level one. Course you need XP to start it off, so you MAY have to wait until after the first encounter on the road happens (Unless you picked a barfight before you left the city). So practically you'd only have about 12 days of Crafting. Still, 12 scrolls of whatever your best spell is, is adding significant power for a level 1 adventure.

So you need to keep the pace up, and not let him have entire weeks of downtime to be crafting up scrolls if you find that to be a problem.

[TuggyNE]

Note Harlot, that he can only make one Magic Item a day (Which as far as I could ever tell includes Scrolls), and it requires 8 hours of working in conditions that are deemed acceptable (No distractions, combat, etc).

So even with just a day of downtime, he can only make one scroll, presuming he has the materials (Simple Gold doesn't work, you actually need gold value in materials, inks, parchments, reagents, etc) and the XP.

This is true, but scrolls have the advantage of being able to contain multiple spells; as long as the total scribing time isn't more than a day, he can pack several on the same scroll.

Probably not anywhere near his full loadout of spells, though.

[Harlot]

Note Harlot, that he can only make one Magic Item a day (Which as far as I could ever tell includes Scrolls), and it requires 8 hours of working in conditions that are deemed acceptable (No distractions, combat, etc).

So even with just a day of downtime, he can only make one scroll, presuming he has the materials (Simple Gold doesn't work, you actually need gold value in materials, inks, parchments, reagents, etc) and the XP.

To get double his amount of spells by scrolling up, he needs double the days that he has spell slots.

See, I'm really confused at this point: In PHB p. 99 (Scribe Scoll - item creation) it states):


Scribing a scroll takes one day for each 1,000 GP in its base price.
With the base prices of 150 or 75 GP for 1st + 2nd level spells for a 3rd level wizard that would mean 5-10 scrolls a day at least.

Then DMG has this at page 287


The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
Scribing a scroll requires one day per each 1,000 gp of the base price.

I do notice there's still the 1000 gp limit (which makes my verdict surprisingly mellow) but I can't see how he is limited to just ONE a day?

EDIT: Stop: Think I found it: Page 283, DMG:

Creating an item requires one day pr. 1000 gp in the items base price, with a minimum of at least a day. Potions are the only exception to this rule; they always take one day to brew. [...] The caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the proces by working longer each day. [...] A character can work on only one item at a time.]

ArcturusV, you are SO right:
Wizard needs one full day with no disruptions to make 1 single scroll.

That being said doesn't Tuggyne have a valid point?:

This is true, but scrolls have the advantage of being able to contain multiple spells; as long as the total scribing time isn't more than a day, he can pack several on the same scroll.

That means we're back to spell cost in GP - he has 2 lvl 2 spells and 3 lvl 1 spells/day + cantrips - one day of rest would easily max that out then + some more.

But again, he first need rest to rejuvenate his spells, then one day of scribing the 1 scroll, and then 1 day of rest again since those spells he scribed would be spent.

Now there's the question of ethics: when I inform the PC, that he can only make a scroll a day, am I morally obliged to tell the PC that he can in fact pack all of those spells in one scroll? Or would that be for him to find out? What would you do?

[Flickerdart]

Now there's the question of ethics: when I inform the PC, that he can only make a scroll a day, am I morally obliged to tell the PC that he can in fact pack all of those spells in one scroll? Or would that be for him to find out? What would you do?
In-character, the wizard would know how scrolls work because he has the feat for it. There's no reason not to tell the player what his character knows.

[Blightedmarsh]

Has any one mentioned earth glide or dig speed yet?

The basic idea is you have your guy hidden beneath the earth and pop up to attack people. This has the adventage of denying the wizard (or indeed any caster) line of sight as well as giving you grounds to protect it against AoE spells.

You use tremmor sense to get a lock onto you target though mindsight would probably be better. Flavor with blind monstrosity for taste.

I am currently monkeying around with the concept for a warlock from a race with a digspeed or a digging minion. This has the advantage of range but I think it would be plain evil on a glavelock.

I think a digging monk or swordsage may work well for this. Sneak attack is also your friend.

[Dairuga]

Hello there.

I know this discussion is a little bit old by now, but seeing as it held my interest to read all the way trough, I figured I could chip in my two platinum pieces on the matter as well.

Firstly, to address an issue that I did not see answered yet (My apologies if they have been answered). Retrieving an item, in this case scrolls, from your packpack, is a Move action.


Manipulate an Item
In most cases, moving or manipulating an item is a move action.

This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity,

This means that, if your wizard is frantically searching his backpack, a nice DM will allow him to find him the scroll he needs, as he spent the action on using it. Given that it takes his move action to find the scroll, however, it means he will be unable to -move- for his turn. Activating the scroll is a Standard action, which means that, if the Wizard uses his entire turn on the scroll, he can fire it off, one per round.

To cover the subject further, if he gets ahold of an extradimensional space of holding; such as Bag of holding, it states that "If the Bag of holding contains more items than a regular backpack should, Retrieving an item is a Full-Round action". One can question that a regular backpack, given space limitations, being able to hold -ninety- scrolls in the first place; and should he attempt this again, definetively rule that it cannot. Do keep in mind, Backpacks usually have a size limitation as well as weight limitation, even if the fewest people actually stick to the size-limitation.

That being said; No, At level 4 (or 3, as Yes, Being raised from the dead gives you One negative level, plus all the experience spent on scrolls should leave him lagging slightly behind the rest), A wizard is not capable of breaking the game, especially when shut out from Divinations. They might be able to do quite a fair bit, but if handled properly, they will be unable to downright -break- it.

Keep in mind, that Spell DC's are -very- important. Glitterdust is usually considered to be one of the most powerful spells a Wizard has at lower level. Given his absurdly high stats, his DC might be higher, but it is still limited by its DC. Glitterdust is a level 2 spell, and if cast from a scroll, the DC will only be 10+2+1 = 13. Which means that, at level 4-5, Most enemies will have a +3-5 to Will, meaning enemies will be unnafected by Glitterdust Roughly 60% of the time, as all rolls of 8 or above will result in them resisting the spell. This same applies to Colour spray, and quite a few of the spells a wizard can use to shut down encounters. Meeting, as well as Exceeding the DC of many spells leaves them without an effect entirely, making the Wizard having wasted his turn. That is one of the problems about relying on Scrolls. They do not scale with Stats, as Staves do.

The Second problem with Scrolls, is that, yes, they are packed in small tubes and can easily be retrieved, they are also crafted at the minimum amount of level. For Invisibility, this means 3 minutes of duration; not by far enough to try any daring skirmishes, but he might pop out of battle and hide away until the dangers go away. Likewise, blasting spells with be wholly inadequate and not of much use as he might think they are.Glitterdust will only last for 3 rounds, Shocking Grasp only deals 1d6 damage, and so on and so forth.

You say that this guy has an insane Blasting potential, but really, he does not. Not at all. If anything, his scrolls hardly contain any blasting at all. He has, at the start of the adventure, 10 Scorching Rays, and 10 Shocking grasp, as his entire arsenal of damaging spells. Make sure he ticks off every spell he uses, and these should be depleted -quickly-. As stated, the Shocking grasps only deal 1d6 damage each, and requires a successfull -touch attack-. He needs to physically -touch- his enemy, and roll an attack roll for it. With his lackluster strenght, and horrible Bab, he should have a +0 at Level 3, to hit anything. That means, even if the spell succeeds, he will only manage to -land- Shocking grasp less than 50% of the time. Even so, 1d6 damage is paltry to neglible at level 4, and means it is not usable as damage anyway.

Scorching ray, while it deals a whole impressive 4d6 damage, and requires a ranged touch attack, can still miss (And fails entirely should he roll a 1), if enemies have even a modicum amount of cover (like standing partly behind a tree, behind branches, hiding in foliage; bushes, etc.) it will grant enemies +4 to AC against the spell, and if the target is engaged in melee, he will take an -additional- -4 to hit with his scorching Ray, because the wizard lacks the Precise Shot feat, letting Ranged attacks
Shooting or Throwing into a Melee
If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll. . Weaponlike spells; those that require Touch attacks, and Ranged Touch attacks to hit, follow the same rules as weapons do. Most people forget this, or is not aware which makes it, if a creature or ally is standing in between the wizard and the target, virtually impossible to even land a scorching ray, with the sudden -8 difference to hit, even with a Touch attack. Keep in mind, retrieving a scroll is a move action, so the wizard cannot move if he attempts to fetch and cast a scroll in one turn. Plus, eventual Concealment (Using spells at night, or fighting trough foliage or partly covering obstacles) gives it an -additional- flat 20% chance to miss.

That being said, he has virtually no offensive capabilities in his scrolls, so please do not let that worry you. The defensive measures are more intense, Mirror Image and invisibility, alongside Summon Monster II, but again, those will be depleted quickly, if he has to use them every fight. Keep in mind that if he fetches a Scroll of Invisibility, and uses it; He will not have been able to -move -from the spot, leaving people (at least those that -know- how magic works, can detect the casting / Chanting with a Spellcraft check) knowing that he still stands in the same square, and can also attack the square the wizard is standing on, given that they know he has not moved, and have a 50% chance of hitting him. Even if he vanished as per invisbility, he has not moved, and is still able to be pin-pointed.

That, plus the fact as have already been mentioned, if the wizard starts casting spells, have archers / fighters in range simply ready action towards his spellcasting. Nothing interrupts spells better than Readied actions. Casting defensively does not stop readied actions; stepping more than a 5-foot-step (A special action that does not draw AoO's) away from the fighters provokes an Aattack of opportunity, and if said fighter has a range weapon (Either Halberd, spear, Spiked chain, etc), then they will still get their Readied action if he attempts to cast. Nothing ruins casting more than being hit in the face while attempting to cast, as that forces an often near-impossible Concentration check. the Concentration check for keeping a spell when taking damage, I believe is 10+Level+Damage taken. So if he starts to read off Scorching Ray off a scroll (Which functions exactly like casting a spell, meaning "Readying an attack against spellcasting" would work), and a monster hits him for, say, 1d6+5 damage (Averaging 8), he has to succeed on a DC 10+2+8 = 20 Concentration check to simply get the spell off. With 6 ranks in Concentration, and a +4 bonus to Concentration due to his high CON, that means he will fail that check 45% of the time. If he gets dealt a little bit more damage (like, say, if a real Fighter with 16 STR were to power attack him, wielding a greatsword, with a paltry -3 to hit for +6 damage, you are looking at a potential (10+2+12+6+4 = 34 Concentration check), which would break any spell he attempts to cast. likewise, multiple rangers can Ready long-ranged attacks against him at the same time, should he attempt to use scrolls. Even if Magic is new to the world, if someone has to recite long words and chants to get off these wonderous, magical effects, it should be common sense that shooting someone in the face while they chant, and interrupt the chanting, would also stop the magical effects. People with throats full of arrows do not recite words very well.

As for his Summon Monster II scrolls, that he made such a hoard of, the Large centipedes -really- aren't all that useful. They have barely any BAB, meaning their attacks will barely hit, they only have 13 HP each, meaning that any same-level fighter with cleave can tear the centipede a new one -and- keep going without losing attacks; generally taking it out in one attack, or just ignore it entirely. the Poison's DC is 11, meaning you are hard-pressed to fail the Fort save for the poison, and enemies generally do not notice 1d4 Dex damage. The flanking, however, might be annoying enough to ensure you want to get rid of the bug, but really, the centipede is not much of a threat at all.

Important:

If the spell contained in a spell completion item has a casting time other than 1 standard action, that is its activation time. For example, a scroll containing a summon monster I spell has an activation time of 1 round because that's the casting time for the spell.

This means that all his precious Summon Monster II scrolls takes 1 round to cast, not a standard action. 1 Round means that he starts chanting on his turn, and ends his turn with that. Now, everyone else gets their turn, and then, when his turn comes around, the spell finally finishes. This means that he cannot merely speak from a scroll and conjure up a beast; it takes quite the fair bit of time for the summoning spell to complete, which most new DM's fail to notice.

It also means that his identify scroll still takes 1 hour to perform, if he can even cast it at all. The rules state that wizards cannot activate Magic items or scrolls if the spells are from schools barred to him. He picked Conjuration, Evocation and Illusion, leaving Divination as a barred school. While your rules might not be the same as "Banned" schools for specialist wizards, you can easily say that the rules cover them the same, as they follow the same lines of thought "He specialized in those three schools, banning the others due to Special Scenario Rules". If this is the case, he will be unable to use Identify at all, as He does not have access to Divination spells, or Spell-completion items emulating divination spells, Necromancy spells Transmutation spells, and so on and so forth.

All that being said, you have -plenty- of ways to legitimately, and understandably break every bone in his little wizard body. He has not choosen optimal wizard feats, and is seeming to not -abuse- the system, given the restrictions he have already been given. There is no need to give him extra, tedious restraints like forcing him to collect his own, non-costly spell components. The SRD states, by RAW, that the material component pouch contains all noncostly spell components within already, Eschew materials or not. This is because no one wants to spend an entire adventure running off to collect bat droppings, or owl's feathers, or what have you. You -could -enforce that he -has- to collect his own material component for every spell he wants to cast, but it is a rather foolish move, as it only creatures unecessary bitterness inside groups, when a specific person is obviously being targeted and given a hard time.

The problem is not as much in the Wizard, and him needing to have a harder time, than you simply needing to learn how to control the wizard better. If that sounds harsh, then I am sorry, as it did not mean to sound like that; I merely wish to state that you have more than enough ways of making his life hard, than outright forcing him trough additional, unecessary hurdles. As I have stated a few methods to keep him in check already, it should be enough to keep him from doing outrageously horrendous stuff.

EDIT /ADDENDUM: Now, on to him using scrolls as a way of packing several spells onto one scroll. While I suppose it is possible to do such; I have never had a single game in which one of my players, or I as a player, have packed a scroll with more than a single spell. While it is entirely doable, a simple and elegant fix would just be to say that the scrolls can only contain one spell each; a far better solution than to force him to gather his own spell components. But yes, if enemies carry around scrolls that carry multiple spells in turn, you would be ethically pressed to inform him that he can do so in turn.

Informing the PC that he can only make one scroll per day, however, is entirely valid, as that is a measure to prevent stockpiling. But even so, even if he can scribe several spells onto a scroll in one go; it is only eligible for putting several spells down in one go, as you state, from level 3 spells or below. All the weaknesses of scrolls still apply, and he expends several spells instead of simply one spell, per day, in making the scroll; making him generally less-effective in combat. Just ensure that he actually keeps -track- of how many scrolls are spent, as to avoid cheating and effectively carrying around an infinite amount, simply by "Forgetting" to use them up. It should not pose too much of a problem, as Level 1-Cantrips are entirely negible, and if he keeps up crafting level 2-3 scrolls, he will fall back vastly in scale of money.

Keep in mind, you -are- assuming that he can afford pumping 1000 gold into scrollmaking every day, by listing off how many spells he can potentially pour into one scroll. If he actually does this, his wallet will start screaming long before you do.

On the note of the spell exchange system, I would advice scrapping it, or revising it entirely. Exchanging 8 level 1 scrolls from a 4th level scroll is such a bad trade that no sane mind would ever hand over such powerful magic for weak magic. The cost differences in crafting the scrolls are extremely different; the market prices showing this (25 gp for the former, 1250 for the latter), and even if the costs is halved due to self-crafting, 1000 gold pieces is quite a fair bit for any salesman, and a 1000 gold-loss is, in essence, less than Zero-sum profit, and no one would agree.

A better trade would simply be that, to trade scrolls, the target has to hand over scrolls equal Twice the market price value, or 1.5x the market time value. If the player wants a 4th level scroll, he has to hand over 1875 gold worth of scrolls, making this a -plausible-, yet non-effective way to gain exotic spells he might wish to have. Everyone wants profits, after all, and they can certainly find other buyers / Traders than your wizard. It is there if he wants it, but he might want to find other sources for magic, first.


I realize that I have rambled on for quite some time now, and I apologize for going on ad nauseum. I hope some of what I have said might be of use, and I hope that the next session goes well for you and your party.

[Harlot]

Again, as always, THANKS for helping the newbie in the playground:


Has any one mentioned earth glide or dig speed yet?

The basic idea is you have your guy hidden beneath the earth and pop up to attack people. This has the adventage of denying the wizard (or indeed any caster) line of sight as well as giving you grounds to protect it against AoE spells.

You use tremmor sense to get a lock onto you target though mindsight would probably be better. Flavor with blind monstrosity for taste.

I am currently monkeying around with the concept for a warlock from a race with a digspeed or a digging minion. This has the advantage of range but I think it would be plain evil on a glavelock.

I think a digging monk or swordsage may work well for this. Sneak attack is also your friend.

No, you're the fist to mention it. Sounds nasty. I'll look into it, absolutely!


In-character, the wizard would know how scrolls work because he has the feat for it. There's no reason not to tell the player what his character knows.

Valid point, I'll tell him. This is SO WEIRD though. This PC has been a DM many times over and has been playing some sort of magic user in every single game. For me to reach a point where I can teach him about the rules ... is very, very cool, but really, really odd. Thanks.

@Dairuga:

The problem is not as much in the Wizard, and him needing to have a harder time, than you simply needing to learn how to control the wizard better. If that sounds harsh, then I am sorry, as it did not mean to sound like that; I merely wish to state that you have more than enough ways of making his life hard, than outright forcing him trough additional, unecessary hurdles. As I have stated a few methods to keep him in check already, it should be enough to keep him from doing outrageously horrendous stuff.

Not harsh at all and absolutely true. As I might have written elsewhere in this thread my main problem was starting DM'ing a wizard without having EVER bothered to learn anything at all about those rules guiding wizardry. Mea culpa, thankfully I am learning fast :-)

My other true problem actually was the sheer number of scrolls, because what he does do in combat is exactly as you stated: He makes himself invisible and cast SM II, so he stays invisible.

Thankfully, when I (prompted by you AWESOME FOLKS at GitPG), starting looking into the scroll issue, I realised that the PC never had the gold to make all of those scrolls (kept them on a meager budget all along, because: Low magic world. You do NOT need 25.000 gp for a quiver of whatever) so the initial scrollproblem is solved. Hurray!
And, it seems, that the rules of the game actually are quite balanced here: Yes he may still prepare quite a few scrolls, but at a cost: meager budget, effectively 2 days of rest if he want both spells and scrolls available, and at higher levels, ther'll be maybe only one or two spells on each scroll he makes. Scrolls are no longer an issue in the game - agreed. NEAT!

However: I seem to have read somewhere as there's actually a practical limit here: that a roll of parchment is xx feet/pages long and that 1 spell = 1 page. So how many pages on a roll of parchment. Anyone??


Firstly, to address an issue that I did not see answered yet (My apologies if they have been answered). Retrieving an item, in this case scrolls, from your packpack, is a Move action.



Manipulate an Item
In most cases, moving or manipulating an item is a move action.

This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity,

This means that, if your wizard is frantically searching his backpack, a nice DM will allow him to find him the scroll he needs, as he spent the action on using it. Given that it takes his move action to find the scroll, however, it means he will be unable to -move- for his turn. Activating the scroll is a Standard action, which means that, if the Wizard uses his entire turn on the scroll, he can fire it off, one per round.

To cover the subject further, if he gets ahold of an extradimensional space of holding; such as Bag of holding, it states that "If the Bag of holding contains more items than a regular backpack should, Retrieving an item is a Full-Round action". One can question that a regular backpack, given space limitations, being able to hold -ninety- scrolls in the first place; and should he attempt this again, definetively rule that it cannot. Do keep in mind, Backpacks usually have a size limitation as well as weight limitation, even if the fewest people actually stick to the size-limitation.

Thanks for answering this, it did get left unanswered in this very long thread.
He has neither Bag of Holding nor Haversack etc. I was considering going with the weight/space suggestions, but now it does not matter. What matters a lot, on the contrary, is that getting a scroll is a move action. So he can retrieve the scroll (I am, actually, a very nice DM!) cast, and then 5 foot step in one round. So reg. invisibility: he could move one square away from where he was when casting it, couldn't he? But smart enemies could aim for the original tile and those adjacent to it.

On the actual spellcasting he seems to have used the rules as you cite them, so no cheating there. I specifically allowed him identify + read magic from divination, but nothing else from that school.


On the note of the spell exchange system, I would advice scrapping it, or revising it entirely. Exchanging 8 level 1 scrolls from a 4th level scroll is such a bad trade that no sane mind would ever hand over such powerful magic for weak magic. The cost differences in crafting the scrolls are extremely different; the market prices showing this (25 gp for the former, 1250 for the latter), and even if the costs is halved due to self-crafting, 1000 gold pieces is quite a fair bit for any salesman, and a 1000 gold-loss is, in essence, less than Zero-sum profit, and no one would agree.

You're not the first to say that. I realise it was just a bad and random idea with the sole purpose of reducing his number of scrolls. As that's no longer an issue and as he is now still limited to 3 schools + a DM who knows the true price of scrolls, I'll simply go back to letting him obtain spells/scrolls "at the dodgy end of the market in the major cities on a gloomy day" for stated value + XX%


Glitterdust is a level 2 spell, and if cast from a scroll, the DC will only be 10+2+1 = 13.

Would someone please, again, and sloo-oow-ly explain to me the difference in 'spell power' when casting the same spell from a scroll as opposed to casting it normally. I have reread the discussion on the topic in this thread, but I am a bit dense: I simply don't get it. Help?

OK, that about sums it up - again, thank you a lot for spending time helping me out. Very much appreciated.

/Harlot

[Dairuga]

Would someone please, again, and sloo-oow-ly explain to me the difference in 'spell power' when casting the same spell from a scroll as opposed to casting it normally. I have reread the discussion on the topic in this thread, but I am a bit dense: I simply don't get it. Help?

Normally, casting a spell follows a specific DC formula.
10 + Spell Level + Casting Modifier.

When casting trough an item, however, your own casting modifier is not taken into account, a bit of a drawback from using them as a backup source.

When casting spells from a scroll, the formula for a spell's DC, changes into.
10 + Spell DC + Minimum Ability score needed to cast a spell.

This means that, to cast a second level spell; You need an INT of 10+Spell level (To put it simply, it means that when casting from a scroll, your INT only counts to be from 10 (For cantrips) to 19 (For 9th level spells).

That means, since Glitterdust is a 2nd level spell, your int is treated as 12 when casting it from a scroll. Since 12 is a +1 Modifier, the formula is simply:
10+2(Spell level) + 1 (12 Int, due to 12 int being the lowest possible INt score you need to cast a 2nd level spell).

Did that make things slightly more clear?

[Phaederkiel]

keep in mind that he does not need to have all his scrolls in his backpack.
He could for example have a simple belt and, tucked into that, 4 to 5 scrolls.
Not letting him draw these as a free / or at least as a +1 Bab Char would do with a weapon (meaning: as a free as long as you move) would be unneccesary cruelty.

There is an Item called quiver of elloha i think, which makes the whole staffs and scrolls issue a bit easier. If he buys something like this, he should be able to use it. and he can make a whole less scrolls.

I do not think that you will need to harrass him any more. His stache depleted, he is much less a danger. Just make sure he has a hard time getting new spells, and you will have him.

Lastly, may I name some of the biggest offenders feat-wise for the scroll making wizard?
a) any sudden feats. My Wizard has sudden maximize and sudden empower. Whenever he does not use these feats, he makes a nice scroll at the evening.
a maximized, empowered Burn spell is simply good, even if it is not as good a choice if cast without enhancement.
b) Metamagic School focus works exactly like this, but only 3 times per day for a reduction of 1. So all my maxed, emped Acid Breathes are sculped to boot.

[Harlot]

Again: Thanks for helping. You guys are the best!
After starting this thread I've recieved at least a +4 bonus to my int. score and +8 ranks in 'Knowledge (D&D 3.5 Wizardry)'
:wink:


Did that make things slightly more clear?

Yes, absolutely. I think I finally get it - a miracle in and by itself as I am slightly hung over today.

The PC has a maxed out int. score of 18. So following your formula, casting color spray from a scroll as opposed to casting it directly would then lower DC from 15 to just 12, right?

10+1 (spell level) +4 (int. modifier) = DC 15 >>> 10 + 1 (spell level) + 1 (min. ab. score for lvl. 1 spells) = DC 12

I'll have to remember to ask him specifically whether he is casting from scrolls or not in the future. At least when saving throws matter.

I assume this rule must be written somewhere - Would that be somewhere in the DMG?


keep in mind that he does not need to have all his scrolls in his backpack.
He could for example have a simple belt and, tucked into that, 4 to 5 scrolls.
Not letting him draw these as a free / or at least as a +1 Bab Char would do with a weapon (meaning: as a free as long as you move) would be unneccesary cruelty.

(...)

I do not think that you will need to harrass him any more. His stache depleted, he is much less a danger. Just make sure he has a hard time getting new spells, and you will have him.


I see your point: Yes, an experienced wizard expecting trouble would have his 'combat scrolls' ready at hand. It was more of an issue when he had his stash and could blast scorching rays in an endless stream.

And no, I agree he should be somewhat under control by now. I never meant to harrass him. It was more about trying to balance out the game, as it was too easy for him. Turned out that this was due to neither of us actually knowing the rules. (surprisingly so, I might add. I am very sure that we both thought, that he was doing everything by the book. He is a cool guy and he wouldn't cheat intentionally.)
With his scrolls depleted, his ability to make new scrolls limited to 1 a day (if rested) and him being limited to three schools, I think I have achieved that.
After last session he was out of spells & scrolls and under pressure timewise - all new to him. And me. Yay!

On giving him a hard time getting new spells: is that still necessary?

And on that note: after last session, the PC asked me if he could be allowed to use other spells than those listed in the PHB. I assume he's thinking along the lines of Complete Arcane. My gut reaction was to say no, so I did, but should I reconsider? As he is limited to three schools it would maybe not be such a disaster after all?


Lastly, may I name some of the biggest offenders feat-wise for the scroll making wizard?
a) any sudden feats. My Wizard has sudden maximize and sudden empower. Whenever he does not use these feats, he makes a nice scroll at the evening. A maximized, empowered Burn spell is simply good, even if it is not as good a choice if cast without enhancement.
b) Metamagic School focus works exactly like this, but only 3 times per day for a reduction of 1. So all my maxed, emped Acid Breathes are sculped to boot.

Thanks, for the info. That is so cool. I'll see if he figures this out by himself. I don't see a reason to deny him any feats, but neither do I , for obvious reasons, feel the urge to point him to these specifically!

/Harlot

[Phaederkiel]

harras was perhaps too strong a word :smalleek:

And yes, you should probably give him a hard time accquiring new spells.
There is a huge difference between a mage with 4 good spells per lvl and one with 15. And be it only that you know what to expect.

New spells: I would do that on a spell to spell basis. In my current game, my dm let me dice if I get the spells I want, IF I get to a location where I can get spells at all. This has made my character a good bit weaker as he could be.

and anyway, I would eyeball every spell he wants to have. He wants Orb of fire, or some other blasty spells? No problemo, dice for them. He wants some divinations? Let him dice for a small subset with not as good chances. He wants venomfire, shivering touch or anything remotely resembling polymorph? No way, josé.

And the book he gets it from matters little. There are truly broken spells in core (polymorph comes to mind), and there are utterly weak spells in other books.

You should mainly be wary of spells that can be used in a lot of ways.

[Harlot]

OK, I'll take it on a spell by spell basis. That'll make the PC happier, now that I have to inform him of the spells issue :-)