Melee Counter Balance : Weapons of Legacy

[CyberThread]

Now I know the PRC is sort of uber, from the weapons of legacy, but my question today does not revolve around that.

How much would a melee benefit to access from weapons of legacy, to try and even the power gap between tier 3/2/1 ? If the other tiers were not allowed similar access.

[Tokiko Mima]

Not at all, really. Legacy Champion is an interesting PrC because of what it can do to extend out other PrC's that can't normally be extended. For some builds, that can be an awesome ability.

As for the rest of the Weapons of Legacy book... it's almost universally bad for melee. The only items worth your time are (a) not weapons, (b) not armor, (c) good for casters primarily.

Some of those weapons sure do sound cool, but by the time you get those cool abilities, you can pay for a crafter to make you a better weapon/item set for less total cost.

And don't forget the prerequisites. You'll be giving up needed BAB, skill points, HP, saves, and in some cases feats (in order to qualify).

Oh, and you can spend all that time and effort acquiring a legacy item, and a spell on page 18 can crush all that, and set you back to zero. You would have to do all that legacy work again. It only costs the caster a spell slot for one day.

[Ravens_cry]

The idea is great, but you need to make your own using the tools available to make weapons that are worth it. Some of the fluff for some of the weapons really tickles my fancy, like Ur, the first magic weapon. Something about that makes me go 'Hey, how about that?' I just like the idea of magic, or at least people's use of magic, having a beginning, that it wasn't always swords and knights and wizards.

[Tokiko Mima]

Sorry, I should be more positive. Weapons of Legacy just makes me a little depressed. I got a squee of excitement when I bought that book, because of all the cool fluffy lore, but after I understood the system I wanted my money back. :smallfrown:

What you need to power up melee is the Tome of Battle. It won't make things totally even, but it does bridge the gap somewhat.

[Phelix-Mu]

I've been toying with some ways to upgrade mundanes for a bit now, and it might dovetail well with some of the basic concepts from Weapons of Legacy. The book's examples are good fodder and inspiration, but need an overhaul to make them relevant.

My current concept is that martial classes would get a progression of Major Skill Tricks (naming concept still under review), gained as levels increase. They would be like skill tricks, but either exclusive to the class or from a general list. Thematically speaking, a legacy weapon, or signature weapon/ancestral weapon/whatever would be nice to work into the system, potentially increasing the effectiveness of the Major Skill Tricks, allowing them to be used multiple times per encounter, or something.

Anyway, if you want to use the material from that book, strip out most or all of the costs. Nothing is worse than giving someone the cool, then having it give them the build-cancer or whatever. Terrible.

"Here, take this awesome sword!"

"Really? That's sweet. How does it work?"

"Just say these words and burn those things over there."

"Alright."

....

"Done. Nice....Wait...why do I feel weaker?"

*diabolical laughter from tier 5 game developers*

[Skysaber]

The Weapons of Legacy flavor text makes them sound like artifacts. But once you look at the rules you realize they actually function as debuffs.

Take the example I was playing with most recently: Kingmaker, the legacy sword from the Barrow of The Forgotten King. At maximum bonus it is a +2 Keen Adamantine longsword that costs you 2 pts of BAB, so overall you are exactly as accurate without this magic sword as with it - only it costs you precious power attack points, so you are less effective in combat with this weapon than without it.

But wait! There's more. It also costs 6 points of Fort save. So a 20 level fighter has his one good save go from a base of +12 all the way down to +6. That's lower than a wizard's Poor Fort save of +7 at the same level, and we both have Con as our second priority stat.

So my best save is now my worst.

And still there's more! Having this weapon costs me a permanent loss of 16 off the top of my maximum hit points at this level. That's enough to lower my average HP as though I had a lower hit dice, so a D8 instead of D10.

So, on picking up and bonding with this weapon, my fighter suddenly gets from it no bonus to hit, the Fort save of a Wizard and HP of a cleric.

And this is supposed to be desirable, somehow?

Even the other functions aren't worth the gold you'd spend on the legacy rituals, even without all of the legacy drawbacks considered.

So get yourself two identical fighters facing off in an arena with no magic gear whatsoever, then throw this weapon to one of them. Give the other a rock, and the one with the rock will win Every Single Time!

And there are much worse legacy examples than Kingmaker out there.

Cursed items in the DMG do not nerf a character as badly as Weapons of Legacy. In fact, if you could trick your foes into arming themselves with weapons of legacy that would be a viable strategy.

[Chronos]

Don't forget that decreasing your BAB can also decrease your number of iterative attacks.

[TuggyNE]

"Here, take this awesome sword!"

"Really? That's sweet. How does it work?"

"Just say these words and burn those things over there."

"Alright."

....

"Done. Nice....Wait...why do I feel weaker?"

*diabolical laughter from tier 5 game developers*

That right there? That is exactly how it went down.

[Mato]

Don't forget that decreasing your BAB can also decrease your number of iterative attacks.You realize legacy penalties to not penalize your BAB but your attack rolls correct?

Also, custom built legacy items are superior to the book offered ones and are meant to trade raw combat power for utility (never be flat-footed, swift action grease, teleport!), which if you'll recall is the basis of Tiering, and fighters are at the bottom rung.

If allowed to copy abilities present in other legacy items every character should own one. I mean, -3 to attack rolls? Ok, but you can use grease as a swift action any number of times per day and three times per day you ignore concealment when attacking. -3 to saves? Ok, five times per day each you can use one three of the concentration checks for save maneuvers. -16hp? Will blur, death ward, freedom of movement, mind blank and immunity to being flat-footed make it up to you? Because you should still have some open slots there to add more stuff if you like.

[Gildedragon]

Yeah. Similar experience with the scarab: yay +5 to my saves... But a -5 to my saves... And it cost me money!

I've considered giving them a shot and giving the penalties if they are separated from the item: a la item familiars

[Amnestic]

Weapons of Legacy had so much potential for cool stuff tied into it but the bizarre drawback/sacrifice system just makes them almost universally entirely worthless.

I'd be surprised if someone hadn't homebrewed a balanced solution along with some example WoL for it.