How to RP: LN Divine Necromancer or LG Arcane Necromancer?

[killem2]

I've been tossing this around. Is it possible with Necropolitan? It doesn't actually state that you must be a certain alignment with the template.

I really want to control undead, summon undead, use necromancer spells to the brim.

But I want to merge it with the most unlikely of alignments. :smallamused:

UPDATE: After contemplation, it may make more sense to be Lawful Neutral.

[Grinner]

But necromancy is evil! :smalleek:

[killem2]

But necromancy is evil! :smalleek:

Only in the eyes of the clergy :D.

[elonin]

You will have trouble with any spells that have the <evil> descriptor. Which are many of the spells in the necromancy school.

[Humble Master]

Maybe you view Death, not as a dark evil force, but as a orderly ascension to a higher plane. To you, necromancy is simply channeling the power of the upper planes to grant life to the bodies once more or to smite your foes. For a less religious approach maybe you use your undead as a tool to defend and aid the weak. After all zombies make tireless workers.

I don't know were but I think there is a monster type called the Deathless or something that are like holy Undead. You might want to look into that.

[killem2]

Not really going to argue the evil descriptor on arcane spell caster.

Demonweb Pits has the raw that it doesn't do anything to a caster's alignment strictly off of the use of the spell.

How it is used is something else. So I'm wanting to use necromancy for a lawful good purpose and how to really roleplay it.


Maybe you view Death, not as a dark evil force, but as a orderly ascension to a higher plane. To you, necromancy is simply channeling the power of the upper planes to grant life to the bodies once more or to smite your foes. For a less religious approach maybe you use your undead as a tool to defend and aid the weak. After all zombies make tireless workers.

I don't know were but I think there is a monster type called the Deathless or something that are like holy Undead. You might want to look into that.

I saw deathless but was concerned if it was to be used by players :smallfrown:

[Failed Phantasm]

There's a homebrew PrC by benly called the Redeemer of Regrets (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9994058&postcount=14) that was created for one of the the GitP PrC contests back in 2010. You might find its fluff a good place to start for ideas on how to roleplay a Lawful Good necromancer, and you might be able to convince your DM to allow its use if this is a question for a specific game you're playing or are about to play.

[Humble Master]

Another thought I had: Maybe you view being turned into an Undead as the ultimate punishment for evil deeds. So you character seeks out evil, kills than and then 'punishes' them by turning them into undead.

[Grinner]

How it is used is something else. So I'm wanting to use necromancy for a lawful good purpose and how to really roleplay it.


Ask nicely before ripping someone's corpse from death into an unholy caricature of life. Being dead doesn't mean he doesn't want his body.

Defend helpless villagers from orc hordes by reanimating the bones of their beloved departed. The resulting moral dilemma will do wonders for their mental health.

Always leave battlefields cleaner than you found them.

Dress your fetid companions nicely. Skeletons should be polished to a shine, and zombies should always have their hair combed and their necrotic flesh trimmed. Each should wear clean clothes, and they should always be dressed for the occasion.

Always say please and thank you.

[killem2]

This just came to my head, so I want to jot it down.

A lawful good necromancer who only animates those of remains of evil alignments.

Now, how can you tell what a past persons life was? :smallannoyed:

[Humble Master]

This just came to my head, so I want to jot it down.

A lawful good necromancer who only animates those of remains of evil alignments.

Now, how can you tell what a past persons life was? :smallannoyed:
Detect Evil

[JaronK]

Easy roleplay concept: you believe that sending the living to their deaths against evil is itself evil, as it results in more suffering. Instead, you send the reanimated dead into battle... and reanimate the freshly killed evil creatures to replentish the ranks.

JaronK

[Gwazi Magnum]

I don't see why not.
The person could of just been raised differently or in a different culture that doesn't view it as evil.

Example, our culture normally sees cannibalism as evil.
While some native tribes actually see it as a way of respecting and honouring their dead, no one culture here is evil.

Even though ours could see there's as evil for eating their own, and they could see us as evil for not respecting our dead the way they do.

In terms of your only evil thing, that could work too but then your character kind of believes necromancy to be something evil and cruel if he only uses it on evil souls. So he'd had to be something like a strict code of honour where only those who deserve it become undead, that explains both the lawful and the good.

As for how you know if they're evil? Either detect evil or just investigate. Or maybe who have seen cases of murderers, rapists, kidnappers etc proven guilty and know where those people are buried so you go to their graves and make them undead.

[Gavinfoxx]

It's easy! You hate undead and don't use spells with the [evil] or [chaotic] description!

What, you thought Arcane necromancy was about armies of undead? Don't make me laugh!

[Kelb_Panthera]

This just came to my head, so I want to jot it down.

A lawful good necromancer who only animates those of remains of evil alignments.

Now, how can you tell what a past persons life was? :smallannoyed:

speak with dead: sorc/wiz 2

ask them some basic moral questions.

[killem2]

Detect Evil

Even if they are dead?:smallconfused:

'Kelbd

Thanks man :)


I don't see why not.
The person could of just been raised differently or in a different culture that doesn't view it as evil.

Example, our culture normally sees cannibalism as evil.
While some native tribes actually see it as a way of respecting and honouring their dead, no one culture here is evil.

Even though ours could see there's as evil for eating their own, and they could see us as evil for not respecting our dead the way they do.

In terms of your only evil thing, that could work too but then your character kind of believes necromancy to be something evil and cruel if he only uses it on evil souls. So he'd had to be something like a strict code of honour where only those who deserve it become undead, that explains both the lawful and the good.

As for how you know if they're evil? Either detect evil or just investigate. Or maybe who have seen cases of murderers, rapists, kidnappers etc proven guilty and know where those people are buried so you go to their graves and make them undead.



I kind of imagined him like a staunch good-er, who has the thought process of..

/SOUTHERN draw

"Ya'll listen now. These bags of bones were either criminals in a past life, or they were just down right vile. *spit*

Point a'is, justice ain't over just cuz they be dead."

/southern draw

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Grinner]

I don't see why not.
The person could of just been raised differently or in a different culture that doesn't view it as evil.

Example, our culture normally sees cannibalism as evil.
While some native tribes actually see it as a way of respecting and honouring their dead, no one culture here is evil.

Even though ours could see there's as evil for eating their own, and they could see us as evil for not respecting our dead the way they do.

In a sane and rational world, yes, but you're talking about D&D alignments, which are neither sane nor rational.

[Humble Master]

I mean use Detect Evil before you killed them. But yah Speak With Dead is a better option and a more 'Necromancy' one.

[killem2]

Could a Lawful Neutral Cleric use evil necro spells with no swing in alignment?

Is really the Lawful part I want more than the good part, and I really want to be a sticker to the law rather than focusing on good/evil.

The more I think about it, Good is not really equal to lawful, in the eyes of this character concept I think.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Detect evil can -technically- tell you if the person was evil after they're dead. It's just a very short window.

An evil aura lingers for a time after the source of the aura (the creature's soul in this case) leaves the area. 1d6 rounds for a faint aura which covers -most- evil creatures, 1d6 minutes for a moderate aura, 1d6 X10 minutes for a strong aura, and 1d6 hours for an overwhelming aura.

[JustPlayItLoud]

I would roleplay the character as the leader of a subversive, unpopular, but ultimately good cult. The bodies of criminals and evildoers are reanimated as hordes of undead troops. Their souls may be beyond the mortal realm and thus beyond redemption, but their bodies may do some good yet. For more powerful undead officer types, you would draw from the adherents of the faith.

I could even picture it being a zealotous fringe cult of Wee Jas or Kelemvor.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I kind of imagined him like a staunch good-er, who has the thought process of..

/SOUTHERN draw

"Ya'll listen now. These bags of bones were either criminals in a past life, or they were just down right vile. *spit*

Point a'is, justice ain't over just cuz they be dead."

/southern draw

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

XD That sounds amazing!

And I can also see that working. Enforcing the law and making them do good after death.


In a sane and rational world, yes, but you're talking about D&D alignments, which are neither sane nor rational.

D&D can still tackle these things.
Alignments are meant to be more guides than absolutes.
They only go out of hand when people too into the 'by the book' sense when it comes to judging others.

This was mainly highlighted to me when I played a chaotic evil character and my DM insulted my roleplaying skills for 'Not lighting a random tent on fire'. Yes I'm chaotic evil but I'm not stereotypical and no one should aim to be purely the stereotypes of an alignment.

Yes, be generally what the alignment is meant you be, but if you can justify out of character proper reasons someone of a certain alignment would act a certain way (like we're doing here) then go ahead and do it. More power to ya for playing alignments in an interesting and unique way.

[Gavinfoxx]

Alignments are meant to be more guides than absolutes.

[Citation Needed]

[Kelb_Panthera]

[Citation Needed]


The Nine Alignments

...Use these descriptions as guidlines, not as scripts.

How's that?

[Gwazi Magnum]

How's that?

Thanks for that.

Though honestly, if someone need's a citation in order to let people be creative and interesting with their characters... Yea, enough said.

[killem2]

It's easy! You hate undead and don't use spells with the [evil] or [chaotic] description!

What, you thought Arcane necromancy was about armies of undead? Don't make me laugh!

Who said anything about armies?

:smallconfused:

[Grinner]

I suppose I just don't see how raising a fellow from the dead for a near eternity of torture and enslavement can be construed as "Good".

[killem2]

I suppose I just don't see how raising a fellow from the dead for a near eternity of torture and enslavement can be construed as "Good".

You might be right, I might need to switch to L/N, then at least that would open up cleric. :smallcool:

[Kelb_Panthera]

I suppose I just don't see how raising a fellow from the dead for a near eternity of torture and enslavement can be construed as "Good".

It depends greatly on whether the soul is bound to the meat in the process. If his soul is rotting in the lower planes (remember that the OP wants to restrict his animations to the corpses of formerly evil folk) then what you do with the meat he left behind is none of his concern. It'd be no different from looting the gear off of the corpse. If his soul -is- attached to the body, you've saved it from much worse treatment at the hands of fiends. (though the latter is arguably protecting him from his just desserts, which is very arguably non-good).

RAW is -very- unclear on what exactly happens to the soul of zombies, skeletons, and other mindless undead.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You might be right, I might need to switch to L/N, then at least that would open up cleric. :smallcool:

Like Kelb said, there's a lot of ways it can not be seen as evil.

And honestly, it bugs me how alignments are meant to be guides but some spells are hard coded into alignments. I would personally house rule those spells but outside of that, a good necromancer should still be plenty possible.

[killem2]

Like Kelb said, there's a lot of ways it can not be seen as evil.

And honestly, it bugs me how alignments are meant to be guides but some spells are hard coded into alignments. I would personally house rule those spells but outside of that, a good necromancer should still be plenty possible.

It is a grey area, arcane users really are not bound strictly by the descriptor and have to fear alignment shifts, and clerics are just screwed usually.

[Dissonance]

Here are a few arguments that a lawful good Necro can give.

PC "Necromany is Evil!"
Necro "I'm using them for good!"
PC "But they're undead!"
Necro "That means they tirelessly work for good!"

and

PC "Why are you raising the paladin!?!?"
Necro "So he can carry on his mission!"
PC "He's still DEAD!!!"
Necro "He's still a staunch and unnaturally focused weapon for good!"

finally

PC "You just reanimated the villagers!!"
Necro "Relax, I'm just making them dig their own graves."
PC "WHY SHOULD I RELAX ABOUT THAT!?!?"
Necro "Because now the other, sensitive, villagers won't have to and we can get back to defending the city."

[killem2]

Here are a few arguments that a lawful good Necro can give.

PC "Necromany is Evil!"
Necro "I'm using them for good!"
PC "But they're undead!"
Necro "That means they tirelessly work for good!"

and

PC "Why are you raising the paladin!?!?"
Necro "So he can carry on his mission!"
PC "He's still DEAD!!!"
Necro "He's still a staunch and unnaturally focused weapon for good!"

finally

PC "You just reanimated the villagers!!"
Necro "Relax, I'm just making them dig their own graves."
PC "WHY SHOULD I RELAX ABOUT THAT!?!?"
Necro "Because now the other, sensitive, villagers won't have to and we can get back to defending the city."

That has restored my faith in LG necromancer lol.

Though, I don't think there is a way around it if I wanted to be a cleric, because seems from research that cleric is just about the only way to go for summoning undead? Or is just that clerics are the undisputed king of it? :smallconfused:

[cerin616]

1. I would allow it, and with the right fluff would allow the raising of the dead be neutral at worst. Same with some evil spells possibly.

2. By RAW however, raising the dead is ALWAYS an evil act, and makes it tough to maintain neutrality and impossible to maintain good.

this is why an undead, no matter what alignment, usually gives off an evil aura.

[Gildedragon]

You might want to check out the core beliefs article for Wee Jas, ESP where it deals with undead.

Lawful (+ Good) necro deeds:
Wizard-Cleric + alt spell source, research (arcane) a non aligned undead creation spell, alt spell source it, offer it to your god as a bounty

Always get (or buy) consent to animate the bodies you do. Doing otherwise is paramount to theft at the least

Use speak with dead to help solve legal disputes, will contestations, and crimes

Convince the DM to retro up the rules and put [healing] spells in necro

[cerin616]

I would probably allow it. Its a cool concept.

At worst though, you can be a follower of weejas who resurrects dead when necessary, but also does good with it at times to maintain that Lawful neutral alignment.

[hamishspence]

I would probably allow it. Its a cool concept.

At worst though, you can be a follower of weejas who resurrects dead when necessary, but also does good with it at times to maintain that Lawful neutral alignment.

Heroes of Horror does say that Neutral Necromancers work- with the spells being the main Evil thing they do, and with them doing a lot of Good as well.

[cerin616]

Yup, pretty much what i was going for.

As for some of the lawful good necro arguments, some of them don't really work.

Raising the dead is evil because there is no way to gain consent from the dead person to use their corpse. Even if they don't mind, its still highly inconsiderate.

With that in mind, there is no way to raise a paladin as an undead and allow him to continue on his pursuits. An undead has an intelligence of 0 and thus is nothing more than an autonomous slave. While your intentions may be good, this means that the undead cannot voluntarily do things, and forcing someone to do good is still not good.

Good can only exist if the do-er of good chooses to do so. Otherwise its exacting force on the unwilling and thus evil.

[Vortenger]

Always liked the Wee Jas flavor for undead creation. Just declaring yourself a follower of Wee Jas or a similar god (LN), you also have ready access to an organization that would let you animate from their ranks. Drop by the the church once a month to see if any paladins died questing and are there to be animated. They don't mind, really! Any evildoers within the church? Bring 'em back for atonement! Its sanctioned, no weird social stigma, and the dead were willing to be animated pre-death. The only downside? By setting this standard, you're almost guaranteed to be some other necro's pet if you die...

Side question concerning the Speak With Dead spell: Based on the wording of the spell, would it be possible to convince a spirit to give you permission to animate it? It would give a way in the field to identify acceptable corpses without resorting to Commune magic or similar, and is more readily available to arcanists, such as the OP. Only useful if abiding by Jasite doctrine, though.

[Gavinfoxx]

Some Arcane necromancy spells that an Exalted LG Focused Specialist Necromancer Wizard could cast (SpCom and SRD only):

Arrow of Bone
Astral Projection
Aura of Terror
Backbiter
Bestow Curse
Greater Bestow Curse
Blight
Blindness/Deafness
Bonefiddle
Burning Blood
Cause Fear
Chill Touch
Circle of Death
Clone
Command Undead
Control Undead
Curse of Impending Blades
Mass Curse of Impending Blades
Death Armor
Death Throes
Desiccating Bubble
Disrupt Undead
Greater Disrupt Undead
Energy Drain
Enervating Breath
Enervation
False Life
Fear
Finger of Death
Fleshshiver
Gentle Repose
Ghoul Glyph
Ghoul Touch
Greymantle
Halt Undead
Healing Touch
Heart of Stone
Horrid Wilting
Imperious Glare
Incorporeal Nova
Junglerazer
Life Bolt
Magic Jar
Miasma of Entropy
Mind Poison
Ray of Enfeeblement
Ray of Exhaustion
Scare
Shroud of Undeath
Soul Bind
Spectral Hand
Stolen Breath
Symbol of Death
Symbol of Fear
Symbol of Weakness
Touch of Fatigue
Undeath to Death
Vampiric Touch
Wail of the Banshee
Waves of Exhaustion
Waves of Fatigue
Wracking Touch


Thus, you could be a fantastic Necromancer and be LG. I don't see the problem.

[cerin616]

Always liked the Wee Jas flavor for undead creation. Just declaring yourself a follower of Wee Jas or a similar god (LN), you also have ready access to an organization that would let you animate from their ranks. Drop by the the church once a month to see if any paladins died questing and are there to be animated. They don't mind, really! Any evildoers within the church? Bring 'em back for atonement! Its sanctioned, no weird social stigma, and the dead were willing to be animated pre-death. The only downside? By setting this standard, you're almost guaranteed to be some other necro's pet if you die...

Side question concerning the Speak With Dead spell: Based on the wording of the spell, would it be possible to convince a spirit to give you permission to animate it? It would give a way in the field to identify acceptable corpses without resorting to Commune magic or similar, and is more readily available to arcanists, such as the OP. Only useful if abiding by Jasite doctrine, though.

Yes, but good focuses more on resurrection. Still have the issue of controlling someone. Even if someone gives consent to being controlled, they lose the ability to consent to things once they are raised.

[killem2]

If you were a DM:

I am a venerable aged, Lawful Neutral Human with X class levels in cleric (see below) and has spent most of his adult life (since like age 30), being a judge. I say X because its variable with my DM. When your current character dies, you can create a new character with one ECL below the last.

While he is Lawful, and he is neutral, he views the law as the absolute final say, and served his judgement out with prejudice. A rich baron who stole from a local market because he felt he is entitled would get the same maximum sentence as the lowly vagrant.

He dabbled in his later years in being a cloistered cleric and a devout worshiper of (insert L/N god who has planning) He started at Marshal 1/Cloistered Cleric 2, and stopped until he reached his riper age.

Borderline delirious to those around him on his near death bed, he wanted to live on to dedicate his cause to the dead that had been criminals in life and forever serve his god. (Enter Necropolitan), then level up as normal until I reach the normal ecl limit for the campaign, and probably enter Master of Shroud or stay cleric. Not sure on that.

[cerin616]

If his goal is to bring to life the dead so that they might be brought to justice, I might allow that. Not sure how that marshall level plays in, but hey. sometimes people expand their knowledge right?

I am still a firm believer that the raising of the dead is an evil act and that to maintain neutrality and not slowly switch to lawful evil you would need to do some good (such as bring evil to justice, shouldn't be too hard, right?)

[killem2]

If his goal is to bring to life the dead so that they might be brought to justice, I might allow that. Not sure how that marshall level plays in, but hey. sometimes people expand their knowledge right?

I am still a firm believer that the raising of the dead is an evil act and that to maintain neutrality and not slowly switch to lawful evil you would need to do some good (such as bring evil to justice, shouldn't be too hard, right?)

Not at all, I think if you used the dead, to wrangle up more baddies, then all is well. Oh and the marshal is just to get into master of shrouds while still maintaining the lawful side of a character.

[BWR]

Like Gavinfoxx said, there are lots of Necromancy spells spells one can use that are neither evil nor undead-animating. If one goes by certain settings, Planescape for instance, animating dead is not an evil act in itself.
There is an entire Faction, the Dustmen, focused on death. They reanimate corpses all the time and are solidly neutral.

The Complete Book of Necromancers has this to say about necromancy:


Gray or Neutral Necromancy
Except for the few listed in Table 10, the majority of necromantic spells fall into a gray category of moral uncertainty. These spells are not intrinsically evil per se, but they certainly can be put to inherently wicked uses. Take animate dead, for instance. Raising up a zombie to carry one's luggage is not considered an evil act, but animating the dead for the purpose of attacking a merchant caravan is another matter entirely. While appropriate
for neutral wizards, animation of the dead should be distasteful and perhaps even forbidden to chaotic good and lawful good wizards. Spells of gray necromancy rarely advance the cause of good.
While casting spells of black necromancy always requires the wizard to make a powers check, neutral or gray necromancy only requires a powers check when it employed for an evil purpose. Gray necromancy thus carries an element of risk and uncertainty: depending upon the easterns intent, the spell may or may not have a chance of attracting the attention of an evil god. It is left for the DM to decide which spells belong to the category
of neutral necromancy. It is suggested that all divination/disguise magics (see Appendix One) and certain special use spells (such as animate dead animals, undead mount (FOR), bone dance, skull watch (FOR), and so on) fall into this largest grouping of necromancy. Of course, the DM may decide that certain spells (such as animate dead and magic jar) have too much potential for evil.

Benign or White Necromancy
A third and final category of necromancy embraces magic of a benign or beneficial nature. White necromancy includes spells which restore and fortify the living body or life force (such as delay death (WH), empathic wound transfer, bone growth, Spendelard's chaser (FOR), Nulathoe's ninemen (FOR), and reincarnation) or derive their power from the caster's own life force (such as spirit armor (TOM) or homunculus shield (TOM)) or can be used only to disable undead (such as hold undead and bind undead). Note, however, that spells that control undead are not considered white necromancy!
Although white magic can be used to heal wounds and bone fractures, it is no substitute for clerical healing. White necromancy derives its healing power from a volunteer's source of life energy (often the caster's), as in empathic wound transfer. Clerical magic, in contrast, bestows healing through a combination of faith and divine authority. Short of a wish (or for a brief duration, a limited wish), wizard spells cannot "create" new hit points - the Art usually shuttles life force from a donor to recipient. In contrast with black and gray necromancy, white magic has absolutely no chance of attracting the attention of an evil god. No powers check is ever required for casting a spell of white necromancy (except, perhaps, in Ravenloft).
Wizards of good alignment will thus employ white necromancy over those spells with questionable moral implications. Of course, nothing prevents evil mages from employing these spells as well, provided that doing so suits their own dark purposes. During an emergency, when a wizard needs to heal allies (or him- or herself) and no cleric is available, even the most dark-hearted necromancer will resort to white magic.


Note that this is from 2E, and some basic assumptions have changed.

[Dissonance]

I would like to point out that the raising of dead is only considered Evil by two different parties.
- RAW which has been proven time and again to be ridiculous.
- People with a bias against Necromacy.

While this might be taken as offensive to the second party, I would like to point your attention to a certain line of spells.

Specifically the Summon monster line of spells and summon natural ally line of spells.

Do you think it's evil to conjure up an animal and have it fight and die for you? "But they don't die!" Well they still feel pain, which makes the spell more akin to torture than proxy, which is arguably more evil.

"But your binding sentient souls." Look at the both spell lists. You start to get the sentient creatures on the list at about the same level as animate dead shows up. So that argument is void. "But-" No buts, if you think it's more evil to bind the soul of whatever to a corpse than it is to bind, say, an angel, for nothing but violence and to take a hit or two for you. Do I need to go on? Heck, binding an angel to play meatshield is considered a Good act opposed to binding a possibly damned soul to a corpse.

In all, people need to look past the stereotypes that they have grown up with and have become set in. Necromancy is a dark magic sure, but Dark is Not Evil.

Disclaimer: I am not saying Pelorites should start using Necromancy, never did I say that. On that note I think Moradin would be pretty chill about it if the Necromancer's intentions were good.

[Phippster]

I once played a Sorcerer/Cleric/Mystic Theurge who was of Lawful Good alignment. He worshiped that setting's God of Death and Judgment, and all of his verbal components for spells when he summoned or animated undead were always role-played, and they always involved me speaking with the spirits of the dead to ask them for their permission to be summoned momentarily from their respective realms of the afterlife for my cause.

I think the simplest way is to ask that all of your undead are instead treated as the Deathless, from Eberron. They're functionally the same as normal undead, but are created from Positive instead of Negative Energy, and as such don't make you evil for summoning them. Honestly, I would rule it's all how you role-play it. If you can pull off a LG Necromancer, I'd say it's an astoundingly interesting character concept.

[killem2]

I keep falling farther and farther away from arcane, but since I've never seriously looking at necromancy for creature usage, what CAN a wizard expect? I've got zero issue with going focused specialist necromancer and full blown whatever if I need to.

[Dissonance]

basically a wizard necromancer isn't as good as controlling a lot of minions like a cleric can. However the wizard makes up for it with just about everything else necromancy can be applied to.

Soul stealing? wizard.
death effects? wizard.
vitality altering? wizard.
minions? cleric.

That basically sums up the specialties of each class for necromancy.

[killem2]

I love the rebuking factor, but you can't get it on a wizard or lg or other wise, and a cleric has to be neutral.

:smallfurious:

lol

I found that white necromancer from pathfinder, that's very close malconvoker is very close as well, but I don't want summoned monsters. I want summon and control undead.

With out DM overruling, I just don't think it's possible exactly.

[Fyermind]

The concept of the reaper is not usually evil. Scary of course, but it only comes when your time is up, and is more an embodiment of order than anything else.

I would play the LN at low op as a Knight into Horned Harbinger I just like the flavor of knight and since a knights weaknesses are normally against undead rebuking could actually be useful. Be sure to get a phylactery of faithfulness, a greater holy symbol and a flametouched holy symbol. A rod of necromancy wouldn't be amiss either. There are really a lot of items near the 10,000 gp range that will make your rebuking power applicable despite your lower base level. Tier 3 would look more like a dread necromancer. Tier 1 would be a cleric. Bone Knight may be an excellent PRC.

I would be okay even with playing an LE necromancer as long as I was the kind of evil that does things for the good of the living and good. I would fight evil, kill it, bring it back to help fight more evil and to benefit good. Think of it this way, they would be going to swell the armies of hell and the abyss. Instead, I am using them to protect the living. Sure I'm using them and that is evil, but they are serving their sentence, their purgatory as you might say. I might even offer them atonement if I could find a way to do it with their departed souls. Awaken undead might be a key part of the concept.

[SaintRidley]

Yup, pretty much what i was going for.

As for some of the lawful good necro arguments, some of them don't really work.

Raising the dead is evil because there is no way to gain consent from the dead person to use their corpse. Even if they don't mind, its still highly inconsiderate.


Speak with Dead. Alternately, ask people to mark themselves as corpse donors if they wish to have their bodies animated after death. Why would it be inconsiderate? Seems more inconsiderate to let the body go to waste to me.




With that in mind, there is no way to raise a paladin as an undead and allow him to continue on his pursuits. An undead has an intelligence of 0 and thus is nothing more than an autonomous slave. While your intentions may be good, this means that the undead cannot voluntarily do things, and forcing someone to do good is still not good.



Awaken Undead gives mindless undead intelligence scores and lets them act on their own initiative. Alternately, raise the paladin as an intelligent undead and there's no problem here. Modfiy the Death Knight template (in the same way the Lich can be modified to be a Good Lich, which also makes sense as a possibility since Death Knight is basically the martial equivalent) and boom, Paladin Death Knight.



Good can only exist if the do-er of good chooses to do so. Otherwise its exacting force on the unwilling and thus evil.

I'm glad we agree that there's no inherent problem, then.

[Coidzor]

Obligatory Tome of Necromancy (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=34248) link is obligatory.

@killem2:
If you were a DM:

Animate Dread Warrior is practically tailored for that sort of thing. Track down BBEG and his Dragon and lieutenants and such. Kill them in the face. Bring them back to use against the next BBEG and crew.


I keep falling farther and farther away from arcane, but since I've never seriously looking at necromancy for creature usage, what CAN a wizard expect? I've got zero issue with going focused specialist necromancer and full blown whatever if I need to.

Necromancer Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook)

Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook) & one from GITP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214212)

There's more on the subject, but those should be good starting points for further reading.

Essentially a Wizard necromancer is going to mostly focus on debuffing, since that's what he has on his list with some control effects. Via some tricks he can use spellstitching to get a loyal minion (like an undead familiar) to have a free SLA to Animate Dread Warrior which turns humanoids with class levels into perma-slaves with their abilities intact (but they're dumb and have restrictions on the way you can command them, which aren't usually pertinent for simple combat orders)

Dread necromancers focus more on traditional, Animate Dead minionmancy and support thereof using debuffing effects. They also can become pretty handy with the fear effects with their charisma and fear aura.


I love the rebuking factor, but you can't get it on a wizard or lg or other wise, and a cleric has to be neutral.

Neutral clerics can rebuke and command undead. I think clerics of Wee Jas *have* to choose rebuking, actually.



What, you thought Arcane necromancy was about armies of undead? Don't make me laugh!

Sure it is, why else would we have the combo of using spellstitching and animate dread warrior? :smallamused:

Or Dread Necromancer, for that matter? :smallbiggrin:


Always get (or buy) consent to animate the bodies you do. Doing otherwise is paramount to theft at the least

There's also the spoils of a good hunting trip into the wilds or the natural salvage of war.

Since humanoids make poor skeletons and zombies, and you really want something big and beefy for the task, such as animals or magical beasts.


Raising the dead is evil because there is no way to gain consent from the dead person to use their corpse. Even if they don't mind, its still highly inconsiderate.

Why? You can make contracts to animate people after they're dead. And how is it inconsiderate? They're dead and gone, and what's more, perfectly fine with it in your example. They're not coming back unless someone's going to spring for a raise dead, reincarnate, or higher level equivalent.

Besides. What you want are big, nasty, melee beasts like animals or monsters proper, and then you run into the problem where it's less evil to murder/kill the hell out of someone or something than it is to use their empty husk as a weapon and tool.

Or even evil to use one's own previous corpses, or clones which were never inhabited by any soul.


With that in mind, there is no way to raise a paladin as an undead and allow him to continue on his pursuits. An undead has an intelligence of 0 and thus is nothing more than an autonomous slave. While your intentions may be good, this means that the undead cannot voluntarily do things, and forcing someone to do good is still not good.

Good can only exist if the do-er of good chooses to do so. Otherwise its exacting force on the unwilling and thus evil.

More pertinently, humanoids make for awful undead unless you bring them back as intelligent undead which retain their class levels. Most options for doing so gives them free will, leaving one with diplomancy and using rebuking to take control of them. Mindless Undead have an intelligence of "-" though, as it is a nonability.

Nah, you can totally use tools to do good. The creatures a caster controls are just extensions of his will and all.


Side question concerning the Speak With Dead spell: Based on the wording of the spell, would it be possible to convince a spirit to give you permission to animate it? It would give a way in the field to identify acceptable corpses without resorting to Commune magic or similar, and is more readily available to arcanists, such as the OP. Only useful if abiding by Jasite doctrine, though.

My knowledge is no. It can't consent, because it isn't the person. It can tell you if the person would have consented, and that's the closest I can see you getting with that spell.