Pathfinder E6 Builds

[ArcanistSupreme]

I'm looking to roll up a character for a "P6" campaign, and while there is a wealth of material for standard E6, I'm having trouble tracking down builds and and handbooks that use primarily Pathfinder material. The DM will probably allow some 3.5 material in if we really, really want it, but he would strongly prefer it were Pathfinder only.

So what are some fun builds that come online by level 4(ish)? Any fun characters that you've had success with?

[JusticeZero]

Lots of them. What do you want to play and what's the setting like? With P6, most anything is viable.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, Ranger's combat styles allow access to some normally level 11 feats at level 6, that would be nice in a P6 game. Namely, Shield Master (weapon and shield style) and Improved Precise Shot (archery style). Zen Archer Monk likewise gets IPS at level 6 and is at its best at that point.

Sorcerer and Oracle can use Paragon Surge to spont. cast any 1st - 3rd level spell off their spell lists, though it is costly in slots at such a low level.

Alchemist (Wings discovery or Beastmorph), Witch (flight hex), Druid (wildshape), and (Air specialist) Wizard can all get flight (other than from spells or items) by 6th level, which seems like it could be a pretty big deal in a P6 game. Maybe some other classes, too, like the Oracles with revelations that grant flight.
EDIT: Eidolons (or Synthesist Summoner) gets flight, too.

Sohei Monk stands out as just a great a dip for a mounted character as it is in any game; it can take Mounted Skirmisher and/or Trick Riding as bonus feats w/o requirements, both of which would normally be unavailable in P6 (mounted ranger can get Trick Riding, too).

[ArcanistSupreme]

The DM is holding back on setting information, but he seems like the type that will create a combat-heavy campaign. As for what I want to play, I want something strong (not broken strong, but can contribute meaningfully in most scenarios) and fun. I have a different favorite class every week, so right now I'm just trying to get the creative juices flowing and see what grabs my attention.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I had a dual shield ranger build that used Shield Slam at Ranger 2 and Shield Master at Ranger 6 to eventually dual wield heavy spiked Bashing shields and bull rush on every hit (optimizing for bull rush). Pretty much requires a battlefield control caster to tag team with, but could be fun to push enemies back into mires of suck. (It eventually dual wields shields for more bull rushes; you don't need to start off like that, 2-handing a single heavy shield is probably better early on).

[ArcanistSupreme]

I had a dual shield ranger build that used Shield Slam at Ranger 2 and Shield Master at Ranger 6 to eventually dual wield heavy spiked Bashing shields and bull rush on every hit (optimizing for bull rush). Pretty much requires a battlefield control caster to tag team with, but could be fun to push enemies back into mires of suck. (It eventually dual wields shields for more bull rushes; you don't need to start off like that, 2-handing a single heavy shield is probably better early on).

While this is hilarious, there is no real advantage to dual wielding shields, is there? The shield bonuses don't stack. And, alas, the other PCs are unlikely to roll casters.


Well, Ranger's combat styles allow access to some normally level 11 feats at level 6, that would be nice in a P6 game. Namely, Shield Master (weapon and shield style) and Improved Precise Shot (archery style). Zen Archer Monk likewise gets IPS at level 6 and is at its best at that point.

Sorcerer and Oracle can use Paragon Surge to spont. cast any 1st - 3rd level spell off their spell lists, though it is costly in slots at such a low level.

Alchemist (Wings discovery or Beastmorph), Witch (flight hex), Druid (wildshape), and (Air specialist) Wizard can all get flight (other than from spells or items) by 6th level, which seems like it could be a pretty big deal in a P6 game. Maybe some other classes, too, like the Oracles with revelations that grant flight.

Sohei Monk stands out as just a great a dip for a mounted character as it is in any game; it can take Mounted Skirmisher and/or Trick Riding as bonus feats w/o requirements, both of which would normally be unavailable in P6 (mounted ranger can get Trick Riding, too).

Now these are all delightful seeds for a character. Are there any other archetypes that can be taken with Zen Archery monk to trade away useless class features?

Also, I'm newer to Pathfinder; what are the shticks of Alchemists, Witches, and Oracles at low levels?

[JusticeZero]

Quigong monk works with everything, iirc. Zen Archer covers so much that I don't think it works with anything else besides Quigong. Fortunately, Quigong is quite good. The only thing that seems to fit otherwise is the third party kit that swaps slow fall for wall climbing.

Alchemists are mad scientists, Oracles are a bit like Clerical Sorcerers, and Witches are a mind and illusion heavy arcane caster class modeled after fairy tale wicked witches. They cackle a lot, give evil eyes, cast a bunch of spells, bake small children into cookies, and whatnot.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Qingong Monk stacks with any archetype because all its changes are optional. It exists solely *to* get rid of worthless monk class features. :smallsmile:

As for the others...

Alchemist: You toss bombs. You can try to put out damage, but will run out of bombs super fast. Better to be a poor man's wizard with stink bomb, dispelling bomb, and tanglefoot bomb. Or go Vivvisectionist, and then you have sneak attack as a rogue...but with "spells"! Mutagen's +4 stat bonus can be pretty significant for a melee build.

Witch: Spam save or die/lose, over and over, basically. Slumber and Misfortune are the mainstay offensive hexes, and you get more mind-affecting will save spells than you ever even wanted. Pretty narrowly focused. You basically need Samsaran race w/ Mystic Past Life and/or Gravewalker archetype to expand your offensive options.

Oracles: Uh... they're basically inferior clerics. The main mechanical reason to be one seems to be the handful of unique exploitable tricks their revelations offer. Heavens Oracle w/ maxed Cha spamming Color Spray, or the Paragon Surge trick, for example. Dual-Cursed is a wretched archetype, but the Misfortune revelation may well be worth it: It can be used both to make enemies reroll good rolls and on self and allies to reroll poor rolls.

[Tvtyrant]

I have heard that the Summoner with the Synthesist archetype is the godking of early levels. Massive stat advantages, ability to cast spells, tons of attacks.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Description stuff

Excellent, that answers almost all of my questions.They all sound like fun and flexible options. I'd feel kind of dirty using the oracle, though. I don't think the DM would know how to deal with the color spray spam. And I'm not familiar with this:


...or the Paragon Surge trick

..but it smells cheesy. Is the basic idea of this to boost caster level and grab Expanded Arcana to grab whatever spell I want? I think this would make him cry.
Any other off-the-wall but viable builds out there? The summoner sounds fun, but again, I'm going for strong but not broken.

[JusticeZero]

Most of what I do with P6 is out of the psionics rules, and lots of people don't like those because, well, 'magic by any other name obviously isn't the same' I guess. That said, I thought the Aegis was very interesting for a class that doesn't actually have any psionic powers save for fluff (it's like a cross between a Soulknife and Tony Stark), and some of the others had some interesting ideas in them.

[grarrrg]

NAKED BEARD WRESTLING, HEADBUTTING, SHARPENED FINGERNAILS SURLY DWARF OF DOOM!!!

Disclaimer: "Naked", "headbutting" and "dwarf" are all optional, but encouraged.

Link to Class Dipping Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230500)

It's up to you whether you start as Ranger into Witch, or Witch into Ranger, but either way get both before you branch out any.

Dwarf as Race, this lets you treat "dwarf weapons" as Martial.
Get a Dwarven Boulder Helmet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/helmet-dwarven-boulder), it's a Light Weapon that does 1d4 damage, but importantly, does NOT require hands to use it.

2 levels of Ranger with the Natural Weapon combat style, grab Aspect of the Beast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/aspect-of-the-beast) as your bonus feat, this give you 2 Claw attacks at 1d4 each.
You can choose (almost) any archetype, but with only 2 levels, I'd go with something like the Freebooter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/freebooter). Gives you something handy to do on the turns you can't full attack.

Next, 1 level of White-Haired Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/white-haired-witch), this gives you a 1d4 'Hair' attack, and most importantly, your 3rd Natural Attack, which qualifies you for the Multiattack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/multiattack-combat) feat. Now your Natural Attacks only suffer a -2 to-hit for being 'secondary' attacks.
QUICK NOTE: If you use a Manufactured weapon and Natural attacks, then ALL natural attacks are considered Secondaries at typically take a -5 to-hit.

The level of Witch also allows you to take the Arcane Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-strike-combat) feat, each round as a Swift Action ALL of your weapons get +1 damage and are considered Magic.

From here it partially depends on what your stats are, and more importantly, if your DM is using Fractional Bab (if yes on the Fractional, then you can afford 2 level in a 3/4 Bab class without losing any more).

A level or two of Monk can add your WIS to your AC, but then you cannot wear armor (but you could ditch the Dwarf and Unarmed Strike instead of headbutt).
2 levels of Inquisitor would add a 1/day Judgement, WIS added to Initiative, and a Domain power (there are some decent ones, and a few give a Feat as their first level power).
Some Barbarian would be handy for the STR bonus from Raging, although your Rage would be limited, adding +4 STR on FOUR attacks is quite nice.
2 more levels of Ranger aren't too shabby either. With Falconer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/falconer) as your Archetype, you'd have a FULL progression Animal Companion (minus your Witch level that is).
And Fighter for the Feats is always a solid choice.

[JusticeZero]

Some Barbarian would be handy for the STR bonus from Raging, although your Rage would be limited, adding +4 STR on FOUR attacks is quite nice.It's P6. Apply the "Extra Rage" feat as needed.
Of course, if you're obsessing over maxing out natural attacks and have psionics classes allowed, glance at the Aberrant Aegis.

[Squirrel_Dude]

*Thinking* The only way to get furious focus by 4th level is to be a fighter, or take a fighter level at level 4. That might actually be worth it as an inquisitor or as a cleric because you dont' gain anything substantial at level 6 with either. With a level of fighter you would gain HP, Armor proficiencies, and a bonus feat.

Yeah, let's try here.

Fighter 1, Inquisitor of Gorum 3 (For the Chaos/Demon Domain)

Feats:
Leve 1: Power Attack
Level 1 Bonus: Furious focus
Level 3: Toughness or Weapon Focus
Level 4 Bonus Teamwork Feat: Lookout (Honestly, who cares).

Maybe do Spellbreak Inquisitor to get rid of the teamwork feats for a +1 to saves against 1 school of magic. Basically just power attack your way through enemies, with the extra +1/2 level bonus to attack and damage from the demon domain. At Level 5 take Improved Bull Rush or something.

Let's see, with a greatsword, and a pretty standard 18 strength you should be able to deal (as a max)...

2d6 +6(strength) +2 enhancement(demon domain) + 3(power attack) + 2 sacred bonus(Destruction Judgement).

For a total of attack of a +9 (2d6+13) attack. An average of 18 to 20 damage a hit isn't bad for level 4. You'll also probably have a 19 to 20 AC from your heavy armor, with 40 or so hit points.

[ArcanistSupreme]

NAKED BEARD WRESTLING, HEADBUTTING, SHARPENED FINGERNAILS SURLY DWARF OF DOOM!!!

So how do these sound?

25 Point buy:

Dwarfy McSurlyangst
Str:17 Dex:14 Con:18 Int:10 Wis:13 Cha:5 (level 4 point will go to Str)

Witch 1/Ranger (Freebooter+Falconer) 2/Barbarian 1/Ranger 2

Feats:
Level 1: Arcane Strike
Level 3 Bonus: Aspect of the Beast
Level 3: Multiattack
Level 5 Bonus: Endurance
Level 6+: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Claws), Extra Rage, Imp Nat Attack (claws)


Dwarfy McMonkerton
Str:17 Dex:11 Con:18 Int:10 Wis:16 Cha:5 (level 4 point will go to Str)

Witch 1/Ranger (Freebooter+Falconer) 2/Monk 1/Inquisitor 2

Feats:
Level 1: Arcane Strike
Level 3 Bonus: Aspect of the Beast
Level 3: Multiattack
Level 4 Bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike, Scorpion Style
Level 6+: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Claws), Extra Rage, Imp Nat Attack (claws), Monkey Style

Kinda hard on the ol' BAB (especially without fractional BAB [although this will result in a whopping +10 Will Save before gear]), but gives Wis to all kinds of things. Also has some nice utility outside of combat. The monk level kind of defeats the purpose of using dwarf, though. But I like the +2 Wis. Ho hum.


More later.

[Fouredged Sword]

Dwarf Ranger Mc Ironwall
Ranger 6, Weapon and Shield style

Feats
1st - Shield Bash, Improved
2nd - Two Weapon Fighting
3rd - Heavy Armor Prof
5th - Two Shield Fighting
6th - Shield Slam - Shield Master

Get two heavy shields. Enchant the spikes with cool weapon enhancements, and the shield themselves enhance one for AC, and the other for cool stuff.

TWF with no penalties. Knock people around and trip them up.

[StreamOfTheSky]

"3rd - Heavy Armor Prof"

...You know there's an armor restriction to use the Ranger's bonus feats, right?

And you should take Shield Slam at level 2. It's seriously amazing at such an early level, as you still get to try and kill someone, but should they live... you can at least push them away to limit how much they can get retribution on you.

[Fouredged Sword]

Hrm, I was not looking at the armor restriction..

Them move shield slam down to lower level and take something else. Maybe power attack.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, as I said, take it at Ranger 2.

It's actually a completely binary decision. Shield Slam requires BAB +6 normally. The ONLY way you can take it before level 6 is to take it at Ranger 2.

[grarrrg]

So how do these sound?

25 Point buy:

Dwarfy McSurlyangst
Str:17 Dex:14 Con:18 Int:10 Wis:13 Cha:5 (level 4 point will go to Str)

Witch 1/Ranger (Freebooter+Falconer) 2/Barbarian 1/Ranger 2

First build is solid, but you cannot have both Freebooter and Falconer (Freebooter trades away your Companion ability).

Also, you may want 11 INT so you can cast your few level 1 Witch spells. I recommend Enlarge Person. Granted, you'll use a Standard action to cast it, but it will last a Minute (I think there's a Trait to lengthen this), and most importantly, +2 STR AND a size increase for all your weapons!


Dwarfy McMonkerton
Str:17 Dex:11 Con:18 Int:10 Wis:16 Cha:5 (level 4 point will go to Str)

Witch 1/Ranger (Freebooter+Falconer) 2/Monk 1/Inquisitor 2

Kinda hard on the ol' BAB (especially without fractional BAB [although this will result in a whopping +10 Will Save before gear]), but gives Wis to all kinds of things. Also has some nice utility outside of combat. The monk level kind of defeats the purpose of using dwarf, though. But I like the +2 Wis. Ho hum.


Similar to above, Ranger archetypes, 11 INT for Witch.
If Fractional is NOT in play, then abandon this build, not even worth considering then.

The Helmet is the most disposable part of either build, as using it pretty much REQUIRES you take the Multiattack feat.
Without the Helmet you are down to only 3 attacks, but they are all at Full Bab, withOUT needing the Multiattack feat.
Your call.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Dwarf Ranger Mc Ironwall
Ranger 6, Weapon and Shield style

Feats
1st - Shield Bash, Improved
2nd - Two Weapon Fighting
3rd - Heavy Armor Prof
5th - Two Shield Fighting
6th - Shield Slam - Shield Master

Get two heavy shields. Enchant the spikes with cool weapon enhancements, and the shield themselves enhance one for AC, and the other for cool stuff.

TWF with no penalties. Knock people around and trip them up.

I can't find the Two Shield Fighting Feat. Source?


First build is solid, but you cannot have both Freebooter and Falconer (Freebooter trades away your Companion ability).

Also, you may want 11 INT so you can cast your few level 1 Witch spells. I recommend Enlarge Person. Granted, you'll use a Standard action to cast it, but it will last a Minute (I think there's a Trait to lengthen this), and most importantly, +2 STR AND a size increase for all your weapons!

I thought the two would work because Freebooter just trades away Hunter's Bond, of which Falconer still has as modified version. Am I mistaken?

As for Int 11, duh. :smallredface: I am concerned about ASF chance though. With 20% from the helmet and minimum 20% for medium armor, that's not looking good. I was thinking of just picking up out of combat spells to not have to worry about it.


Similar to above, Ranger archetypes, 11 INT for Witch.
If Fractional is NOT in play, then abandon this build, not even worth considering then.

The Helmet is the most disposable part of either build, as using it pretty much REQUIRES you take the Multiattack feat.
Without the Helmet you are down to only 3 attacks, but they are all at Full Bab, withOUT needing the Multiattack feat.
Your call.

What's even the point if you aren't headbutting people too? But yeah, I was more and more disappointed as the second build coalesced. Are there any other three-level-finishers for this build that you want to throw out there? Your dipping guide is certainly comprehensive, but I'm just not as familiar with all of the PF material as I am with 3.5, especially when it comes to domains.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I can't find the Two Shield Fighting Feat. Source?I've only managed to find a 3rd party feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/combat-feats/two-shield-fighting-combat) by that name.


I thought the two would work because Freebooter just trades away Hunter's Bond, of which Falconer still has as modified version. Am I mistaken?Unfortunately yes. As per the prd.


PRD [link] (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes.html)
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace OR alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature.

As for Int 11, duh. :smallredface: I am concerned about ASF chance though. With 20% from the helmet and minimum 20% for medium armor, that's not looking good. I was thinking of just picking up out of combat spells to not have to worry about it.I think the witch is just there to allow you to add +1 or whatever damage to your attacks as a swift action with the arcane strike feat, and giving you some good spells to work with when not wearing armor.

Personally I'd recommend Magus or Bard for that, though because they can cast their spells in light armor. But ya know, spice to taste and all that.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I've only managed to find a 3rd party feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/combat-feats/two-shield-fighting-combat) by that name.

Unfortunately yes. As per the prd.

Ah. Boo.


I think the witch is just there to allow you to add +1 or whatever damage to your attacks as a swift action with the arcane strike feat, and giving you some good spells to work with when not wearing armor.

Personally I'd recommend Magus or Bard for that, though because they can cast their spells in light armor. But ya know, spice to taste and all that.

The whole point of the level of witch is for attacking people with your beard! That is the only reason I'm messing around with it instead of going to Synthesist Summoner!

[Squirrel_Dude]

The whole point of the level of witch is for attacking people with your beard! That is the only reason I'm messing around with it instead of going to Synthesist Summoner!Arcane Strike is a nice little bonus then. Unless you take more levels as a caster, it's just going to remain as a small +1 bonus to damage.

[grarrrg]

As for Int 11, duh. :smallredface: I am concerned about ASF chance though. With 20% from the helmet and minimum 20% for medium armor, that's not looking good. I was thinking of just picking up out of combat spells to not have to worry about it.

Slight correction then: For the Armorless 'Monk' variant, if you forgo the helmet (due to lower Bab), THEN Englarge person is super handy.
But for either build, 11 INT can be handy.


Arcane Strike is a nice little bonus then. Unless you take more levels as a caster, it's just going to remain as a small +1 bonus to damage.

As stated, the level of Witch is for the Hair Beard attack.
And as for Arcane Strike, since it's an E6-type game, the best possible bonus would still only be +2 with 5 caster levels, which would prevent us from getting the Ranger Claws (and tanking our Bab).
But a +1 bonus is perfectly acceptable, because the build can make 3+ attacks every round (and doesn't otherwise have a use for Swift actions).

Taking a 2nd level of Witch is still an option, as you wouldn't lose any Bab by doing so. But since White-Haired trades away ALL Hexes in favor of the Hair Beard attack, you'd only really gain an extra level 1 spell/day, so you'd be better off elsewhere.
(you do gain the ability to Constrict/Grapple with your Hair, so take that as you will.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Taking a 2nd level of Witch is still an option, as you wouldn't lose any Bab by doing so. But since White-Haired trades away ALL Hexes in favor of the Hair Beard attack, you'd only really gain an extra level 1 spell/day, so you'd be better off elsewhere.
(you do gain the ability to Constrict/Grapple with your Hair, so take that as you will.

Unfortunately, all of the hair's attacks are Int based, which is super meh, so I'm not too eager to trade away other potential goodies for such a mediocre option. And the Witch doesn't have many good utility spells, so I'm not going out of my way to get extra spells per day.

Are there any other three-level-finishers for this build that you want to throw out there? Your dipping guide is certainly comprehensive, but I'm just not as familiar with all of the PF material as I am with 3.5, especially when it comes to domains.

EDIT: Delightful find. The Heirloom Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/heirloom-weapon) grants proficiency with any one weapon, allowing me to forgo dwarf. I think it would be really fun to play this character as a crazy hermit that found the helmet in a cave and (especially at first level when he has no armor proficiencies) wears nothing but the helmet and his beard.

So new concept:
Herman the Human Hermit
Str:17 Dex:14 Con:18 Int:11 Wis:10 Cha:7 (level 4 point will go to Str)

Witch 1/Ranger (Falconer) 2/Barbarian 1/Ranger 2

Traits:
Heirloom Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/heirloom-weapon)
Good Dreams (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/good-dreams)

Feats:
Level 1: Arcane Strike
Human Bonus: Toughness
Level 3 Bonus: Aspect of the Beast
Level 3: Multiattack
Level 5 Bonus: Endurance
Level 6+: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Claws), Extra Rage, Imp Nat Attack (claws), Step Up

[The Dragon]

I had an idea. There's a string of official FAQ responses that lets you use SLAs to qualify for prestige classes.

Arcane Trickster requires the ability to cast a 2nd level arcane spell.

Cnsequently, my idea is Drow (or thiefling, but drow is Doing it with Style. If you can swing a small-size thiefling there's no contest at all.) Roque 1/Vivisectionist Alchemist 1/Magus 2/Arcane Trickster 2.

This, along with weapon finesse and dervish dance, nets us
-BaB+2(ouch)
-Magus casting 4(CL 6 with that trait, and 2nd level spells, yay!)
-3d6 of sneak attack!
-First level extracts. Some of these are really quite good. Reduce Person, I'm looking at you.
-spell combat and spellstrike
-Mutagen. This is a pretty nice deal.

That's prety damn potent, overall. We don't really care about the BaB loss, because we weren't getting extra attacks from BaB anyway, and the focus on dex in this build is pretty high.

Build
Str - 7, Dex - 19, Con - 12, Int - 18, Wis - 8, Cha - 5. 4rth level increase goes to dex.

Thiefling
Magus 2
Vivisectionist Alchemist 1
Rogue 1
Arcane Trickster 2

Traits
-Magical Knack
-Magical Lineage(Shocking Grasp)

Feats
-Weapon Finesse
-Dervish Dance
-Arcane Strike

Skills of note
-Disable Device 4 ranks
-Escape Artist 4 ranks
-Knowledge Arcana 4 ranks
-Acrobatics 6 ranks, for getting into flanking position.

Spell combat with +1 scimitar: +6/+6, 4d6+8 in addition to 5d6 from shocking grasp.

With reduce person and mutagen up, it's +10/+10, 1d4+3d6+11.

Cat's grace can extend it further.

In short, this buid is competent without buff-time, and absolutely deadly with buff-time.