How to go toe-to-toe with a caster, as a caster?

[Nettlekid]

In an upcoming campaign, my DM has let us know that we're going to be fighting some powerful creatures. Mostly dragons, but I suspect dragons with class levels, and there comes a point where the levels are much more important than the racial HD. Especially if those levels are caster levels. Our party is a party of three, level 21, composed of a melee type (class specifics undecided), a ranged/scout type (probably a Warlock), and me, a Sublime Chord. I've been careful about using things that aren't too cheesy or overpowered, keeping them as a reserve option but not intending to use them, but my DM asked me today if I think a level 30 metamagic specialist is too much for a party of three level 21 characters. I said that I expected we'd be able to manage, but what I was really thinking is that I, as the only actual caster in the party, am going to need to pull out all the stops in order to go toe-to-toe with a fellow caster 9 levels higher.

Now of course you could say that anything I can do, he can do better. If he were to have my same exact build, with nine extra levels, then of course he'd win. But what it comes down to is my knowledge of how to play casters versus my DMs. What spells to pick, effects to go for, defensive measures to take, etc. In pumping up the cheese factor, I've managed to get Persisted Shapechange, Arcane Spellsurge, and Greater Blink onto my character, and he has a level 20 Dweomerkeeper cohort who can help him with buffs and the like. Hopefully I'll be able to adventure with Astral Projection, so messing up won't cost me my life (and the Dweomerkeeper can Su True Res anyway), but still, I want to be set. How can one caster prepare to fight another? What tricks do you use? I want stuff like the Tinfoil Hat. Things that will foil any non-fiat tricks my DM pulls, and then things I can use as tricks of my own.

Oh, and before anyone says anything, there's NO Epic Spellcasting allowed. Just not in the cards.

One thing that makes me think I stand a chance is that, from where I'm standing, it looks like the power difference between a level 20 and level 30 caster is a lot less than that between a level 10 and a level 20 caster. You both have 9th level spells, and the same action economy. The level 30 guy is going to hit harder and have more spells/day (he's probably Theurged somewhere), but it's not the same as trying to fight Shapechange with Polymorph. What do you think I can do?

[ArcturusV]

Disjunction them right off the bat. Then take a feat like Improved Counterspell to just shut them down hard. Also depends on how Contingency is factored in, as that's usually a staple, and if it passed the Disjuction save.

In my experience that's how high level "Spell duels" usually end up. When everyone is Disjunctioned, and one spellcaster is burning all his actions on the hard counter "No, you don't, no caster check, just don't" rather than using Dispel Magic as a Counter, suddenly your rogue or fighter can actually jump in and just slice and dice the wizard to pieces.

Presuming you aren't doing Astral Projection stuff. At which point you just Disjunction, the guy disappears, fight over. But if you're fighting that level 30 guy and it's going to last more than 1 partial round, I'm guessing that means you cracked into his private sanctum or otherwise you are dealing with his real body.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wait for Tippy to answer this... he's good at this sort of thing...

[ericgrau]

Readied action to disrupt casting. Especially against a foe who is stronger than you. Then trading actions is an awesome deal. Empowered magic missile is usually the most reliable, but any damage spell will do. You can also spread it out to take down mirror images. Even if he knows shield it won't stop your first missile, and then you spellcraft it and switch to another damage spell. Plus, yay, he wasted another turn casting shield. But basically get multiple different damage options just in case he has defenses. Get see invisibility, and try to get it extended and recast to keep it up all day if you can, so that you aren't surprised. Mobility such as fly, haste, swift fly or swift expeditious retreat helps. Either to get in range or to avoid a beasty ally of his. Generally I'd say swift fly for the quickest response and because it gives the most options.

[Nettlekid]

I'm a little scared of MDJ, because I don't want to nuke potential loot, and I don't want my DM to start using it against me. I feel secure that I could Celerity and warp away, but I'd hate to be the reason that my party members got caught in it. Still, I do want to use it to get rid of Mind Blank, among other buffs.

If he's got Astral Projection, I plan to Shapechange into an Astral Dreadnaught to trap them and either kill them outright or let my allies in to kill. But if it ends up just *poofing* him away, I won't mind too much.

Oh, another question. How important is it to have all buffs up all the time? What I mean is, with Shapechange, I have access to effects like Freedom of Movement and True Seeing at will. But not necessarily together. Is that a severe limitation? I thought I could save money by not buying a Hathran Mask of True Seeing or a Ring of Freedom of Movement because forms like Concordant Killer or Hound of the Hunt will give it to me when I need it, and that would certainly do for a highly optimized casual game, but if I'm looking at heavier cheese I'm a bit worried it won't cut it, now.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Don't forget about low-level spells, and carry a rod of quicken metamagic. Touch of Idiocy is a nice one, it will drop your opponent's save DCs.

[eggynack]

Don't forget about low-level spells, and carry a rod of quicken metamagic. Touch of Idiocy is a nice one, it will drop your opponent's save DCs.
Eh, touch of idiocy isn't really very good against casters. It sounds like it'd be good, because you're hitting their best stat, but that's the exact reason that it's not good. You're basically guaranteed to never knock the wizard to a relevantly low amount of intelligence, and that's if you somehow manage to enter touch range with a wizard. It's also assuming that a 30th level wizard doesn't have immunity to mind effecting, which is not the best assumption to make. If I'm closing to touch range, I'd rather do something that kills the opponent.

[Emperor Tippy]

A lot of it depends on how smart your DM plays the dragon. A Permanent Emanation: Selective Antimagic Field (set to exclude the dragon) means that he gets to sit inside an always up AMF with all his magic items and spell casting not hampered in the slightest while you are servilely limited in what magic you can use on him.

The Dragon also likely has 50+ HD which means 50+ Craft Contingent spells, almost certainly including a Craft Contingent: True Res.

Five iterations of Improved Metamagic is enough to ensure that everything but Intensify Spell will only cost +1 spell level per meta.

Five iterations of Improved Spell Capacity means you are likely looking at 14 or so post 9th level spell slots.

So expect the Dragon to have up things like Persistent Shapechange and Persistent Death Ward (along with persistent energy immunity to every energy type that could hurt it).

Expect all of the standard immunities of course.

Throw on a Persistent Xorn Movement so that it can pass through the earth with ease and figure every Permanent and Incarnate spell that exists is on the dragon at max CL/ML.

Now this is how I would be running a CL 30 epic dragon. I don't know enough about your DM to predict how he would run it.

If he is playing the dragon like I would, you aren't going to win.

Granted, I would have thrown on twenty levels of the non wildshape druid (the variant that gets the monks AC and unarmored speed) (only +10 CR) and eight levels of Factotum (along with lots of FoI) (only +4 CR). All spells would be invisible and the dragon would throw up Superior Invisibility from a Craft Contingent before proceeding to hit and run you to death in one round faster than you can recognize what is going on.

[Nettlekid]

My DM isn't going to play it at all like you would. I don't think he's aware of the Craft Contingency feat, and he's not the sort to use it if he did know it.

He was disappointed that taking more levels of Epic Sorcerer wouldn't get you more spell slots without spending feats on Improved Spell Capacity or things like that, so he's most likely gone some form of Caster 10/Other Caster 10/Theurge class 10 so he has more spells per day and more spells known. I don't expect him to use Shapechange, and if he did he would stick mostly to the Monster Manual I think.

He's said Metamagic specialist, but I don't know what he means by that. He's never played a caster, so I don't know if he knows what Metamagic is worth it or not. He was concerned about the HP of his caster and was asking me what usual damage for certain classes would be, so he seems more focused on direct damage. I expect him to basically be more like a Mailman than anything.

[Emperor Tippy]

My DM isn't going to play it at all like you would. I don't think he's aware of the Craft Contingency feat, and he's not the sort to use it if he did know it.

He was disappointed that taking more levels of Epic Sorcerer wouldn't get you more spell slots without spending feats on Improved Spell Capacity or things like that, so he's most likely gone some form of Caster 10/Other Caster 10/Theurge class 10 so he has more spells per day and more spells known. I don't expect him to use Shapechange, and if he did he would stick mostly to the Monster Manual I think.

He's said Metamagic specialist, but I don't know what he means by that. He's never played a caster, so I don't know if he knows what Metamagic is worth it or not. He was concerned about the HP of his caster and was asking me what usual damage for certain classes would be, so he seems more focused on direct damage. I expect him to basically be more like a Mailman than anything.

Oh, then Shapechange into a Shadesteel Golem and throw up a Globe of Invulnerability (totally shuts down all of the Orbs unless they throw in a Heighten to make them 5th level). Combine with a Selective (yourself) Impressing Field (CM) set to Abjuration and with the CL pumped as high as you can; this forces a CL check to use Abjuration spells (such as dispel magic or Disjunction) in the area.

Shadesteel Golem protects you against anything that is SR: Yes. Globe of Invulnerability protects you against the Orb line (and any other SR: No spells of 4th level or lower). The Impressing Field protects your buffs and the Globe from being removed with any ease.

Use a targeted Dispel to bring down the dragons Mind Blank and follow it up with an Analyze Dweomer (quicken with a rod or use a Belt of Battle for an extra standard action) as your first spell combo against the dragon to ID all his buffs (note that the dragon doesn't get a save, only attended objects technically do). Use the extra targets to get anything that your permanent Arcane Sight shows as particularly magical.

Now that you know what all is there use a Greater Celerity to get a full round of actions. Use a Rod of Quicken on a Reaving Dispel, your +20 on the Dispel check should be enough for you to beat the 11+CL dispel check around half the time, so you can steal a bunch of the dragons buffs. Now for the extra cheesy fun. Buy a +1 Vorpal Serpantounge Thinaun arrow from Races of the Wild (it's slashing so you can make it Vorpal), trigger a Surge of Fortune (auto natural 20) and then a Moment of Prescience+True Strike (you haven't made an attack roll yet so you can carry it from before the fight or contingency it if necessary). With AB+45 to hit you should confirm the critical. At this point the dragon looses its head and can't be resurrected without that arrow on hand.

So there you go, that should do it. Sure you are blowing a lot of spells but it is a CR +9 fight against an epic caster; that is expected.

[Metahuman1]

Oh, then Shapechange into a Shadesteel Golem and throw up a Globe of Invulnerability (totally shuts down all of the Orbs unless they throw in a Heighten to make them 5th level). Combine with a Selective (yourself) Impressing Field (CM) set to Abjuration and with the CL pumped as high as you can; this forces a CL check to use Abjuration spells (such as dispel magic or Disjunction) in the area.

Shadesteel Golem protects you against anything that is SR: Yes. Globe of Invulnerability protects you against the Orb line (and any other SR: No spells of 4th level or lower). The Impressing Field protects your buffs and the Globe from being removed with any ease.

Use a targeted Dispel to bring down the dragons Mind Blank and follow it up with an Analyze Dweomer (quicken with a rod or use a Belt of Battle for an extra standard action) as your first spell combo against the dragon to ID all his buffs (note that the dragon doesn't get a save, only attended objects technically do). Use the extra targets to get anything that your permanent Arcane Sight shows as particularly magical.

Now that you know what all is there use a Greater Celerity to get a full round of actions. Use a Rod of Quicken on a Reaving Dispel, your +20 on the Dispel check should be enough for you to beat the 11+CL dispel check around half the time, so you can steal a bunch of the dragons buffs. Now for the extra cheesy fun. Buy a +1 Vorpal Serpantounge Thinaun arrow from Races of the Wild (it's slashing so you can make it Vorpal), trigger a Surge of Fortune (auto natural 20) and then a Moment of Prescience+True Strike (you haven't made an attack roll yet so you can carry it from before the fight or contingency it if necessary). With AB+45 to hit you should confirm the critical. At this point the dragon looses its head and can't be resurrected without that arrow on hand.

So there you go, that should do it. Sure you are blowing a lot of spells but it is a CR +9 fight against an epic caster; that is expected.

... ... ...

I can't decide if you would be legendarily epic, spine meltingly scary or table-with-face beating annoying to play with sir. I really can't.


But we should totally do it some time just to find out. :smallamused:

[Nettlekid]

Hmm, that's a pretty good lineup. One thing though is that I don't feel confident about is my ability to dispel the Mind Blank. If I have +25 to dispel, and they have CL 30 (could easily be higher), I'd need 16 to dispel. If I can only get +20, I cannot dispel it. That's a problem.

Is there a good way to get magic items off my enemy, so I can MDJ without destroying those?

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm, that's a pretty good lineup. One thing though is that I don't feel confident about is my ability to dispel the Mind Blank. If I have +25 to dispel, and they have CL 30 (could easily be higher), I'd need 16 to dispel. If I can only get +20, I cannot dispel it. That's a problem.

Is there a good way to get magic items off my enemy, so I can MDJ without destroying those?

Chain Dispel the items to suppress them. They cease being magical for 1d4 rounds. Dump an MDJ out while they are suppressed and they won't be effected at all (being non magical at the time).

No Dispel checks needed. You Analyze Dweomer the dragons items (to avoid Mind Blank), Chain dispel them, Disjunction (quicken from a rod) hit, Belt of Battle for the standard, and then whack him with the arrow from above.

[Nettlekid]

OH MY GOD THAT'S BRILLIANT. I never would have thought of that, but that's one of the best things I've ever heard.

And I thought you said to use a targeted Dispel to take down the Mind Blank. Would Analyze Dweomer work on items worn by a creature with Mind Blank?

EDIT: Except, Chain Dispel specifies that it targets creatures. Unlike Dispel Magic, items aren't valid targets.

[Emperor Tippy]

OH MY GOD THAT'S BRILLIANT. I never would have thought of that, but that's one of the best things I've ever heard.

And I thought you said to use a targeted Dispel to take down the Mind Blank. Would Analyze Dweomer work on items worn by a creature with Mind Blank?

EDIT: Except, Chain Dispel specifies that it targets creatures. Unlike Dispel Magic, items aren't valid targets.

Yes but Chain Spell metamagic doesn't. You should have a Rod of it (if you don't actually it taken already).

If not just Psychic Reformation and pick up Easy Meta: Chain, Chain, Invisible, and Arcane Thesis: Greater Dispel Magic. Casts from the same slot and after combat you can just flip your feats back to whatever else you had.

[Mithril Leaf]

Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

[Nettlekid]

Ah, that would work. I think a Chaining rod is the easiest thing. Does the dispel check change because of the Chain, or would Chain Spell's whole "DC decreases by 4" not matter?

So I start by getting a few defenses up, and then Chain Greater Dispel Magic the magic items, before Mordenkainen's Disjoining the target himself. And then I have the advantage. Would that do it?

[Emperor Tippy]

Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.
Muhaha, another falls under the thrall of the cookie wizard. :smalltongue:


Ah, that would work. I think a Chaining rod is the easiest thing. Does the dispel check change because of the Chain, or would Chain Spell's whole "DC decreases by 4" not matter?

So I start by getting a few defenses up, and then Chain Greater Dispel Magic the magic items, before Mordenkainen's Disjoining the target himself. And then I have the advantage. Would that do it?

Pretty much. Might not even need the buffs (beyond Shapechange, incidentally cronotyne get's you a whole extra set of actions so you can save some using that).

[Nettlekid]

Oh yeah, I definitely plan to abuse Chronotyryn form most often, and sometimes take the form of an Elemental Weird to use their free action Divinations. But yeah, once I got rid of all their buffs (especially Mind Blank) it opens them up to attack from my allies, as well as my Bardic abilities.

[BowStreetRunner]

Make sure you remember to post back to the end of this thread with the outcome of the encounter. I am sure we all would like to know how this turns out for you!

[Nettlekid]

Oh, I'm afraid that this won't come to a head for several months, I expect. I'm preparing very far in advance. Like a proper paranoid caster would!

[Gavinfoxx]

take the form of an Elemental Weird to use their free action Divinations Omniscience.

There, fixed that for you.

[Nettlekid]

Say, is there was non-psionic version of the Save Game trick?

[Flame of Anor]

The lesson here is: have at least 20 levels more than Tippy's character, so that you can live long enough to surrender.

[Mithril Leaf]

Say, is there was non-psionic version of the Save Game trick?

If you use a bunch of miracles I'm fairly sure you can just duplicate it. Other than that, not that I know of.

[Spuddles]

Doesn't your thinuan arrow trick have a 50% chance of the arrow breaking? Or are you just stabbing the dragon in the neck, using the arrow as a dagger?

As long as you're abusing surge of fortune, there's nothing preventing you from having a hundred of them running at once. Telekinesis a bag of vorpal arrows and auto-kill CL targets as a standard action. Need CLx2 surges running.

[Nettlekid]

Okay, so this is what I plan to do if I want to start off serious right from the beginning.

Dire Tortoise form-Surprise Round
Change into Chronotyryn for double actions
Standard: Chain Greater Dispel Magic
Swift: Mordenkainen's Disjunction
Swift: Assay Spell Resistance
Standard: Extended Otto's Irresistible Dance

Roll for Initiative

Swift: Silence (on a stone near them so they can't cast Verbal spells)
Standard: Doomspeak (to lower saves, DC 44)
Swift: Ray of Dizziness (might be unnecessary with Otto's Dance)
Standard: Invisible Freezing Fog (trap and hopefully make them fall)
Change into Ethereal Slayer
Immediate Action: Celerity-Dimensional Anchor (just in case)

Next Turn (not dazed due to Mark of the Dauntless)
Change into Overseer Beholder
Standard: Doomspeak
Swift: Wall of Stone (cylinder around them)
Hat (intelligent item, gets its own action): Dimension Door to top of Wall of Stone
Lay down fire with eye rays. Maybe Dominate if they're humanoid, Hold Monster and Temporal Stasis could be useful.

Does that sound good? Provided that the Chain Dispel and the MDJ works, they're left without their buffs, down to one action per round which hopefully they'll be using to stand up after falling in the Freezing Fog, and they can only move 5 ft anyway, while they're trapped in a cylinder of stone, locked without ability to travel interdimensionally by Dimensional Anchor, and without most of their spells thanks to Silence. Is there anything clever I could do to limit the ability to make Somatic motions? It'll be 2d4+2 rounds before they even get a chance to act back, so there's plenty of buffing time. I also need a good way to actually take their items from them.

[Svata]

Black Tentacles. Have those grapple them, and they won't be able to use spells with somatic components. Unless they have freedom of movement up, in which case the freezing fog wouldn't work in the first place.

[ArcturusV]

Can't you only take one swift action a turn?

[Nettlekid]

They won't have Freedom of Movement, because I'm nuking their buffs with MDJ.

You get double actions from Chronotyryn, which technically doesn't include Swifts because it was written before Swifts were invented, but it does say "two full round's worth of actions" so you should get two swifts. What I did forget though is that Celerity will eat my swift next turn, and I'm not a Chronotyryn then, so I wouldn't be able to Wall of Stone. Or I could Wall of Stone but not Doomspeak. Whatever.

And grappling won't work because I'm probably facing Dragons, with very high grapple checks.

[Samalpetey]

The lesson here is: have at least 20 levels more than Tippy's character, so that you can live long enough to surrender.

Or make pun-pun. Though when you're resorting to that, Tippy's already won :smalltongue:

[Spuddles]

Dont use anything with a save past level 15 unless you are using taint. It just wont work. And it really wont work if you use Su abiliies from shapechange because I am guessing you lack the 30 or 40 charisma necessary to be in the save-or-anything game.

If you want more extra actions, use your shapechange free action to turn into a choker each round, bouncing between chronotryn and choker form. Chronotryn gets you double actions, which you use, then turn into a choker for one more standard. Then next round use your standard, then turn into a chronotryn for doubles, and so on.

[Nettlekid]

Dont use anything with a save past level 15 unless you are using taint. It just wont work. And it really wont work if you use Su abiliies from shapechange because I am guessing you lack the 30 or 40 charisma necessary to be in the save-or-anything game.

If you want more extra actions, use your shapechange free action to turn into a choker each round, bouncing between chronotryn and choker form. Chronotryn gets you double actions, which you use, then turn into a choker for one more standard. Then next round use your standard, then turn into a chronotryn for doubles, and so on.

I'm keeping away from saves for the most part, using spells like Ray of Dizziness and Otto's Irresistible Dance, but with a Will DC of 44 for Doomspeak, that has a good chance of success. I only make that on a nat 20 (it's 20 points higher than my save, not just because nat 20 is auto-success). Even if I was in a form that granted me Cha to saves, I make it only on 7 or higher. That's not too bad. And if it works, it forces -10 to all enemy saves, so that's good. Otto's Irresistible Dance forces -10 to Reflex saves, so that's definitely -10 and possible -20 to Reflex on things like Freezing Fog. I also have the Bardic Fascinate, with a DC equal to my Perform check (and I have +68.) That's not bad, right? I do have a Charisma of 36. 40 if I dropped Mind Blank and allowed myself a +4 Morale bonus from Snowsong. But that's not quite worth the vulnerability.

I don't think the Choker/Chronotyryn thing would work, because Shapechange specifies you can change form once per turn, before or after your actions. In what you're describing, you're trying to add actions on after the change, which I think doesn't work out. What I would argue for though is that you could change into a Chronotyryn at the beginning of your turn, take two turns of actions, and then change into something else at the end of your turn, because you're allowed to take two rounds worth of actions, and you can change once per round. Maybe~

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot, I have Jarring Song. When within 30 feet of a spellcaster, I force a Concentration check versus my Perform. 1d20+68, +7 for Improvisation if I want it, and I could go so far as to add 25 if I drop the Moment of Prescience. But I think 1d20+75 is more than even a level 30 caster is going to invest in Concentration, when +30 is usually enough. With that, they'll be unable to cast at all.

[Spuddles]

The shapechange action thing just means you cant do change shape in the middle of an action, like say making a full attack as a guy with a sword then turning into something with natural attacks for another 6 swings.

But you can change shape after your action (lile casting a spell).

44 save DC is pretty high for targeting a non-wis based caster, but if you had a red wyrm loredrake with a few levels of sorcerer and at least elite array for having class levels, you're looking at a will save of +34 or more. And with 41+ HD, you know iron will is going to be there. And of course, that's assuming your dispells successfully stripped its superior resistance.

High level casters should be using when buffing to protect from dispels are beads of karma and a limited wish to get dispelling buffer. Add in a magic tattoo and a ring of enduring arcana. That's +14 to caster level vs dispel checks.

In other words, to get a target vulnerable to a save or X, you need to remove defenses which is probably going to be a MDJ.

It would be better to just dump damage on them until they die, like an arcane fused sanctum spell arcane fusion + hail of stone, nested n times, where n is any arbitrarily large number.

Re: jarring song
If you're within 30 feet, what's keeping an enemy spellcaster from a) moving or b) wraithstrike (venomfire) bite claw claw wing wing?

[Nettlekid]

The shapechange action thing just means you cant do change shape in the middle of an action, like say making a full attack as a guy with a sword then turning into something with natural attacks for another 6 swings.

But you can change shape after your action (lile casting a spell).

44 save DC is pretty high for targeting a non-wis based caster, but if you had a red wyrm loredrake with a few levels of sorcerer and at least elite array for having class levels, you're looking at a will save of +34 or more. And with 41+ HD, you know iron will is going to be there. And of course, that's assuming your dispells successfully stripped its superior resistance.

High level casters should be using when buffing to protect from dispels are beads of karma and a limited wish to get dispelling buffer. Add in a magic tattoo and a ring of enduring arcana. That's +14 to caster level vs dispel checks.

In other words, to get a target vulnerable to a save or X, you need to remove defenses which is probably going to be a MDJ.

It would be better to just dump damage on them until they die, like an arcane fused sanctum spell arcane fusion + hail of stone, nested n times, where n is any arbitrarily large number.

Re: jarring song
If you're within 30 feet, what's keeping an enemy spellcaster from a) moving or b) wraithstrike (venomfire) bite claw claw wing wing?

What Tippy's very clever plan was is not to target the caster with the Dispels, but target their items to render them nonmagical for 1d4 rounds, then use Mordenkainen's Disjunction for an unblockable dispel, not affecting the currently nonmagical items, to get rid of all their buffs with no need for a dispel check. I think that if you target a Ring of Counterspelling which Dispel Magic, you aren't targeting the caster, so it wouldn't activate. It seems like a good plan to me. Because their magic items are "safe," I'm not as worried about using MDJ.

For Jarring Song, I can ready action to move when they do, chasing them down, and I can have cast Ray of Dizziness beforehand to force them into only a move or standard action each round. If I do that, they can't move and attack, nor could they full attack (and I could ready a standard action with Greater Blink to avoid any single attack). Actually, I don't even have to chase them, because they could only move and then not have the chance to cast. But preparing my move to follow them, standard to Blink out, allowing my Harmonizing weapon to carry the song, and letting my inferior noncaster allies pummel the guy while I shout in his ear should do the trick.

[TuggyNE]

You get double actions from Chronotyryn, which technically doesn't include Swifts because it was written before Swifts were invented, but it does say "two full round's worth of actions" so you should get two swifts. What I did forget though is that Celerity will eat my swift next turn, and I'm not a Chronotyryn then, so I wouldn't be able to Wall of Stone. Or I could Wall of Stone but not Doomspeak. Whatever.

I noticed that, but figured you were still in Chronotyryn form, so you'd get two swifts back, use one for the celerity the previous turn, and have the other one left over for the Quickened spell.

[Nettlekid]

I noticed that, but figured you were still in Chronotyryn form, so you'd get two swifts back, use one for the celerity the previous turn, and have the other one left over for the Quickened spell.

Since I switched into Overseer Beholder form at the end of my previous turn, I don't think I'd have two swifts to use for the next turn. Unless I stay in Chronotyryn form while it's not my turn, then have two rounds-1 swift action next turn, use those actions, then change into Overseer Beholder near the end of my turn and finish off with a flurry of free action eye rays.

Chronotyryns are confusion.

[TuggyNE]

Since I switched into Overseer Beholder form at the end of my previous turn, I don't think I'd have two swifts to use for the next turn. Unless I stay in Chronotyryn form while it's not my turn, then have two rounds-1 swift action next turn, use those actions, then change into Overseer Beholder near the end of my turn and finish off with a flurry of free action eye rays.

Yeah, switch out of Chronotyryn form after your turn starts. Maybe right after, if you like. It works!

[Nettlekid]

No, no, if I want the extra actions I think I'd have to stay in Chronotyryn form to use them. Which means I get the best bang for my buck if I, at the end of my turn, turn into something which has free actions, like a Beholder's eye rays and an Elemental Weird's Divinations.

[Nettlekid]

Alright, as I might have mentioned before, I've got a Cleric cohort that's there primarily as a sidekick healbot and tangential buffer (with Extended 10 minute/level spells). The build right now is Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 6/Death Delver 1/Dweomerkeeper 10, using DMM: Persist and Initiate of Mystra, as well as usual Dweomerkeeper cheese. But I think I may switch it up to something a bit more fun, to go with Cleric 5/Runecaster 8/Death Delver 1/Dweomerkeeper 6. Still using DMM: Persist, but instead of the Cheater of Mystra stuff, I think I'll use Runecaster and Craft Contingent Spell to create better wards and defenses for my PC and party. What spells go best in a Contingent Spell?

Also, a question about Craft Contingent Spell. Could the Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell interact in any way with the Craft Contingent Spell? To make crafted Contingent Supernatural Spells?