Merry Gishmas! +19 BAB, 9th-level spells and full attack channeling

[Piggy Knowles]

EDIT: See later posts in this thread for a cleaner method of entry involving Touch of Summoning in place of Arcane Disciple, as well as a BBEG version of the build, which uses UA bloodlines and Fiendish Legacy. The original build still works, but the later versions are a little bit cleaner and allow you to turn Wisdom into a dump stat.

I was messing around with some bloodline feats for another build, and I noticed for the first time how perfectly Nar Demonbinder and Duskblade fit together. 13 levels in Duskblade gives you full attack channeling and also gives you 4th-level spells, letting you qualify for Nar Demonbinder. The remaining seven levels are just enough to complete Nar Demonbinder, which completely rebuilds your casting.

Add in Versatile Spellcaster, a natural choice for a Duskblade anyhow, and some bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium and/or Mother Cyst, and you've got a gish with some decent versatility and 9th-level spells, playable from 1 through 20.

Here is the build outline I've come up with:

Magnus Veritas
BUILD STUB: Illumian (aeshkrau), Duskblade 13/Nar Demonbinder 2/Abjurant Champion 5

PROGRESSION:
1. Duskblade1- Versatile Spellcaster
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
2. Duskblade2- Combat Casting
3. Duskblade3- Fey Bloodline
4. Duskblade4-
5. Duskblade5-
6. Duskblade6- Arcane Disciple (Portal/Summoner)
7. Duskblade7-
8. Duskblade8-
9. Duskblade9- Mother Cyst
10. Duskblade10-
11. Duskblade11-
12. Duskblade12- Spell Focus (Conjuration)
13. Duskblade13-
14. Nar Demonbinder1-
15. Abjurant Champion1- Arcane Strike
16. Abjurant Champion2-
17. Abjurant Champion3-
18. Abjurant Champion4- Power in the Blood
19. Abjurant Champion5-
20. Nar Demonbinder2-

Suggested Stats (32-PB):
Str 16/Dex 10/Con 12/Int 14/Wis 12/Cha 14

The build currently only requires nongood. If you don't mind being evil, dedicate yourself to an Elder Evil and take the deformity feats every five levels, in particular Deformity (Tall).

If you are playing in a game where feat-granting magical locations are not allowed, take Iron Will at 9 instead of Mother Cyst.

BUILD NOTES:

Despite needing some minimum Wisdom, Int and Cha scores, the aeshkrau sigils let you focus almost exclusively on Strength, minimizing MAD.
Full attack channeling Irresistable Dance is just plain mean.
Full attack channeling Necrotic Cyst is less immediately impressive, but was amusing enough to include. (If making necrotic puppets is too evil, I guess Mother Cyst can be dropped for Power Attack.) Note that while the original spell does require a saving throw, many of the subsequent spells don't.
Power in the Blood grants bonus spells at each level, giving you a surprisingly good amount of endurance.
Versatile Spellcaster gets you up to 9th-level spells, which can be used for Necrotic Termination or Wail of the Banshee. Neither is THAT great for you, since both have at least a partial saving throw, but if you can get your hands on knowstones or runestaves, you can pick up other handier 9th-level spells.
An imp familiar on top of a high-HP, high attack chassis like this is just the icing on the cake.


I'll edit in spells known lists for Duskblade and Nar Demonbinder shortly, but I thought this was fun and wanted to post it. It's not the most powerful build in the world by a longshot, but it's a nice straightforward gish build with a lot of fun flavor that I'd love to play.

[A_S]

Awesome.

My only major regret is that the Nar Demonbinder spell list doesn't have anything on it I'd want to channel :( . Still, plenty of goodies for that from the Duskblade side of things, and there's worse things in life than being a Duskblade who can also summon, planar bind, and blaspeme when appropriate.

[Thurbane]

I like this a lot. Good build! I may steal it for a BBEG.

[Piggy Knowles]

Thanks, guys!


\My only major regret is that the Nar Demonbinder spell list doesn't have anything on it I'd want to channel :( . Still, plenty of goodies for that from the Duskblade side of things, and there's worse things in life than being a Duskblade who can also summon, planar bind, and blaspeme when appropriate.

Yeah, the only real spell worth channeling on the Nar Demonbinder side is plane shift, and that would be better for a build that really focused on DCs. Luckily, pulling otto's irresistible dance from Fey Bloodline goes a long way toward giving you everything you might want to channel.

If you didn't mind dropping Mother Cyst (and I'll admit, it's really only there because I think the idea of channeling necrotic cysts is cool), you could also drop Arcane Disciple and instead take Fiendish Heritage and Fiendish Legacy. That gives you a 1/day usage of teleport, summon monster V and unholy blight (Count pointed this one out to me as a potential entry point into NDB on my archer thread). The fluff gets a little bit weird, having heritage feats on one side and bloodline feats on the other, but it IS legal to have both. And hey, then you can safely dump Wisdom!

Also, if your DM rules that cyst spells must be taken as spells known to be able to cast them*, then definitely drop Mother Cyst, either for Power Attack or alongside Arcane Disciple for Fiendish Heritage/Legacy. It won't really hurt the power any, and might actually boost it a bit. I just happen to think the cyst spells are neat.

Another option would be Penumbra Bloodline. No glitterdust at low levels, no irresistible dance at high levels, which is a shame. But shadow evocation and its greater cousin would be nice to have, and could pull some touch spells that way. (There are surprisingly few decent high-level touch evocations, though...)

I think I prefer the fluff of Fey Bloodline here, but both work fairly well.

Here is what I am currently thinking for spells:

DUSKBLADE:
1- Detect Secret DoorsF, color spray, chill touch, resist energy, swift expeditious retreat, true strike, summon monster I
2- GlitterdustF, dimension hop, touch of idiocy, swift fly, swift invisibility
3- TonguesF, vampiric touch, dispelling touch, greater magic weapon, ray of exhaustion
4- Hallucinatory terrainF, dimension door

NAR DEMONBINDER:
4- Hallucinatory terrainF, magic circle against good, lesser planar binding, dimensional anchor, wall of fire
5- SeemingF, plane shift, flame strike, dispel evil, summon monster V
6- MisleadF, greater dispel magic, planar binding, banishment
7- SequesterF, blasphemy, summon monster VII
8- Otto's irresistible danceF, greater planar binding
9- Wail of the bansheeF

FFey bloodline spell

MOTHER CYST:
1- Necrotic awareness
2- Necrotic cyst, necrotic scrying
3- Necrotic bloat
4- Necrotic domination
5- Necrotic burst
6- Necrotic eruption
7- Necrotic tumor
8- Necrotic empowerment
9- Necrotic termination

*Mother Cyst and spontaneous casters

So, Mother Cyst doesn't really specify how it works with spontaneous casters. It just says:



The mother cyst grants you access to a selection of cyst-related spells... You cast these spells like any other spell you can cast, once you host a mother cyst...


It then goes on to say that prepared casters don't need to add them to their spell book, but doesn't mention spontaneous casters.

This build is assuming that cyst spells can be cast as though they were spells known (you cast them like any other spell you can cast, ie, you spend a spell slot of the appropriate level). I've seen arguments that you still need to take the cyst spells as spells known to cast them, though. If so, they really aren't worth it for a spontaneous caster and should be dropped. Power Attack would be a welcome addition to the build, and the spells are mostly for flavor anyhow. (Or, drop Arcane Disciple and qualify for Nar Demonbinder via Fiendish Heritage/Legacy.)

Now, if this build focused more on saving throws, it might be a little bit deadlier. But it IS worth noting that once your target is infected with a cyst, many of the spells don't allow subsequent saves. Necrotic scrying means you can see them anywhere. Necrotic bloat lets you hurt them from afar. Necrotic empowerment is actually an OK buff, although a bit high level for what it gives you. (If they weren't enhancement bonuses, it would be better.) And most of the other spells only allow partial saves at best.

So in general, this build would do best infecting weaker enemies that are more likely to fail their saves, and letting them free to be spies, etc. Then they can become cyst zombies when they've outlived their usefulness...

[Humble Master]

Looks good! I always love a good gish.

Also these bloodline feats intrigue me. Which book are they in?

[Piggy Knowles]

Looks good! I always love a good gish.

Also these bloodline feats intrigue me. Which book are they in?

Dragon Compendium. Basically, they require you to be a spontaneous spellcaster, and add an extra spell known at each level. There are lots of different bloodlines, but you can only have one. (Although there is no restriction from having a bloodline and a heritage feat, oddly enough.)

There are also some follow-up feats. For example, Power in the Blood gives you an extra spell slot per day, but it can only be used for your bloodline spells.

[Larkas]

Hmmmm... AFB right now, but you can't use Knowstones to get spells not already on your list. And don't Bloodline feats apply their spells only to one class?

[Fable Wright]

This is an excellent build that I will be saving for later use. Can you think of any other entry methods/spell lists to add? Penumbra Bloodline, while not exactly capable of using Irresistable Dance, is probably a bit better in the earlier levels because of access to Shadow Evocation, and later Greater Shadow Evocation, which gives a good bit more flexibility to the Duskblade and many more touch spells to channel. Of course, they're all at reduced values because of the will save, so YMMV.

Also, why Greater Planar Binding instead of Unholy Aura + Cloak of Chaos + Holy Aura + Shield of Law?

Finally, CL 13 from levels 13 to 19 is depressing, given the number of encounters with people who have spell resistance at those levels. Any way to fix that?

[Piggy Knowles]

Hmmmm... AFB right now, but you can't use Knowstones to get spells not already on your list. And don't Bloodline feats apply their spells only to one class?

Actually, I'm also away from my books but I think you're right about knowstones. Pretty sure I was confusing them with those dragonshard crown things from Explorer's Handbook.

As far as bloodline feats go, I did check on that when I was working on the build and I don't recall anything that restricts you to one list. If your DM says otherwise, though, just add the spells to your Nar Demonbinder list. The only spell you'll miss at low levels will be glitterdust.

I did just realize that the build can't cast Necrotic Termination, though, since the Fey Bloodline prevents me from spells that create new undead. Not a big loss, but it's there. (And switching to the version with Penumbra Bloodline wouldn't have this problem.)


This is an excellent build that I will be saving for later use. Can you think of any other entry methods/spell lists to add? Penumbra Bloodline, while not exactly capable of using Irresistable Dance, is probably a bit better in the earlier levels because of access to Shadow Evocation, and later Greater Shadow Evocation, which gives a good bit more flexibility to the Duskblade and many more touch spells to channel. Of course, they're all at reduced values because of the will save, so YMMV.

Also, why Greater Planar Binding instead of Unholy Aura + Cloak of Chaos + Holy Aura + Shield of Law?

Finally, CL 13 from levels 13 to 19 is depressing, given the number of encounters with people who have spell resistance at those levels. Any way to fix that?

GPB was mostly because it's an insanely powerful spell, but you're right, inimical unholy aura is more useful for a gish. My only thought was that I'll probably want to spend most of my spell slots on irresistible dance regardless, and this way I'd have GPB as an option when necessary. But I could always just use scrolls of GPB.

Penumbra Bloodline is probably a better option at the middle levels, although in the end I think full attack channeling + reach weapon + irresistible dance wins out.

As for caster level, I'd like to fit in Practised Spellcaster (another option if you drop Mother Cyst), although cherrypicking a few things from Raising Caster Level (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level) could probably do the trick in a pinch.

[Larkas]

Actually, I'm also away from my books but I think you're right about knowstones. Pretty sure I was confusing them with those dragonshard crown things from Explorer's Handbook.

As far as bloodline feats go, I did check on that when I was working on the build and I don't recall anything that restricts you to one list. If your DM says otherwise, though, just add the spells to your Nar Demonbinder list. The only spell you'll miss at low levels will be glitterdust.

I'm looking at my books now and it seems you're right! By the feats' wording, it seems like you add a spell to any spellcasting class, even if its not the one that qualified you to the feat, and even if its not arcane. Weird!


I did just realize that the build can't cast Necrotic Termination, though, since the Fey Bloodline prevents me from spells that create new undead. Not a big loss, but it's there. (And switching to the version with Penumbra Bloodline wouldn't have this problem.)

Well... I don't believe that's such a good use of a feat, but if you take Apprentice (Spellcaster), you can shuffle Necrotic Termination away! It's a little cheesy, though.


GPB was mostly because it's an insanely powerful spell, but you're right, inimical unholy aura is more useful for a gish. My only thought was that I'll probably want to spend most of my spell slots on irresistible dance regardless, and this way I'd have GPB as an option when necessary. But I could always just use scrolls of GPB.

Or use a knowstone. This is a valid target for it. :smallwink:

1

Anyways, two further ways to add spells to your list:

- Take a level in Sand Shaper! It's kind of hard to fit it into the build, though. You want to take the spellcasting level hit in the Duskblade side, but if you lose one caster level there, you lose direct access to 4th level spells. If mild cheese is on the table, you qualify anyways with Versatile Spellcaster. You will be losing Arcane Channeling (Full Attack), though. If you want to go this way, go ahead and take 2 levels in Sand Shaper, it's better than the 12th level of Duskblade.

- Cerebrosis. It's a feat from Dragon Magazine 330 (pg. 27) that gives you some spells related to the Far Realm. These spells are pretty neat! The wording is as ambiguous as Mother Cyst's, though. It mentions prepared spellcasters, but not spontaneous. Meh, I don't know the feasibility, but maybe it's best to take Arcane Preparation somehow.

1

Anyways, great build! Kind of reminds me of my Ranger-based Sublime Chord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267260) (it even had higher-than-+16 BAB :smallbiggrin: ), though I must admit your build seems to flow better!

[Phelix-Mu]

Thanks for teaching me how to use superscript!:smallredface:

And I'll echo the sentiment about possibly stealing this for BBEG material. A very nice concept for messing with characters, especially for a repeat appearance and surprise Necrotic Cyst hijinks.

Ah...Necrotic Cyst hijinks. Good times.

[Piggy Knowles]

Finally, CL 13 from levels 13 to 19 is depressing, given the number of encounters with people who have spell resistance at those levels. Any way to fix that?

Thinking about this a bit more, it's actually pretty easy to get a reasonable CL.

It's actually CL 15 rather than CL 13 thanks to the krau sigil, so that's a good start. If you're playing this as a BBEG, you can pick up five free Vile feats, which means things like Abyss-Bound Soul and Dark Speech become options, as does using Agony for a +2 CL. A ring of arcane might and/or orange ioun stone will also be good for both sides of your casting.

[Flickerdart]

Don't you need to know a Summon Monster spell to be a Nar Demonbinder? Summon Monster is not a duskblade spell, so you have to waste a feat, which is a shame (that is, if Extra Spell actually lets you learn off-list spells).

[Piggy Knowles]

Don't you need to know a Summon Monster spell to be a Nar Demonbinder? Summon Monster is not a duskblade spell, so you have to waste a feat, which is a shame.

Yeah, that's why I've blown a feat on the otherwise useless Arcane Disciple for the Summoner or Portal domain. There is also the alternate option of dropping Arcane Disciple and Mother Cyst, and taking Fiendish Heritage and Fiendish Legacy, which gives you SMV, teleport and unholy blight as SLAs.

It's an extra feat tax on top of Iron Will and SF (Conjuration), unfortunately, but I haven't yet found a cleaner way of avoiding it.

[Chronos]

Do Arcane Disciple spells count as divine? Because if so, you could use a Bead of Karma to boost caster level, too.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take Magical Training for a spellbook that you've already put 0-level spells into, learn more spells and add them to it just like a Wizard does. Spend spell slots via Versatile Spellcaster to cast 'any spell you know' of a given level, including those you've put into this spellbook.

[Fable Wright]

Do Arcane Disciple spells count as divine? Because if so, you could use a Bead of Karma to boost caster level, too.

They do not.

Also, I just realized: This build has caster level 26 inimical Blasphemy at will.

On an unrelated note, Corrupt Arcana might cover the Bloodline bonus spells and Summon Monster, given enough shenanigans and/or wording abuse. Find Scrolls and such filled with Corrupt Spell metamagic'd (Champions of Ruin, not Heroes of Horror Corrupt spells, but Corrupt Arcana makes no distinction) spells (provided you find some way to make all the spells you want damaging) and you have the benefits of most of the useful bloodline feats. A scroll of Snowcasted Flash Frost Glitterdust, Black Lore of Moil-ed Necromancy spells... I can't think of a way to get Summon Monster to be damage-dealing offhand, but you can probably think of something.

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, now if I were to make this an actually evil version for a BBEG, and didn't mind scaling up the power a bit, I might make it something like this:

Magnus Veritas
Illumian (aeshkrau) with major demon bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#demon), Duskblade 13/Nar Demonbinder 2/Abjurant Champion 5

Dedicated to Zargon the Returner (Elder Evils)

1- Versatile Spellcaster, Willing Deformity
FLAW: Fiendish Heritage
FLAW: Fey Bloodline
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
2- Power Attack, Combat Casting
3- Mother Cyst
5- Deformity (Tall)
6- Spell Focus (Conjuration)
9- Fiendish Legacy
10- Deformity (Madness)
12- Arcane Strike
14- Cleave
15- Power in the Blood, Deformity (Tongue)
18- Practiced Spellcaster (Duskblade)
20- Apostate

OK, so this is sort of dialing things up to 11 and taking some options that move Magnus from PC territory into the NPC/BBEG realm. Five bonus vile feats means bonus reach, immunity to mind-affecting, blindsense 30', and a resistance to divine magic. The major demon bloodline gives some useful stat boosts, two handy feats (Power Attack in particular is one I've been lamenting that this build lacks), and most importantly, stacks with all my existing classes for level-dependent abilities. That means I can quicken 4th-level abjuration spells for free now, and the CL of duskblade and nar demonbinder goes up considerably.

Flaws open up the option of keeping Mother Cyst and still using the Fiendish Heritage/Legacy option of entry, which is a good bit more useful than the old Arcane Disciple method. It also means the build has room for Practiced Spellcaster to max out CL on the duskblade side of things as well.

Fluff could be that Magnus is the product of two great lines, on the one side a great grandchild of the Queen of Air and Darkness from the Unseelie Court, and on the other side the child of a Cynidicean bloodline that had been tainted by a great demon. A prophecy that combining these two ancient bloodlines could lead to an heir capable of awakening the long-lost Zargon has led dark forces to unite Magnus' parents and to train him in the lost arts of demonbinding.

(As an aside, I'm always amazed at how much scarier a build can get by simply adding a bloodline...)

[ksbsnowowl]

Finally, CL 13 from levels 13 to 19 is depressing, given the number of encounters with people who have spell resistance at those levels. Any way to fix that?

IIRC, Nar Demonbinder has some sort of additive affect with your existing caster levels. I forget the exact interaction, however.

Edit: Now I see what you were talking about. Your duskblade CL will still only be 13th. Your NDB CL will be your character level, however.

Edit 2: There is another option for qualifying for the summon requirement of Nar Demonbinder: Fiendblooded from Heroes of Horror.

It would muck with getting both Duskblade 13 and Nar Demonbinder 7th casting, but I'm just putting it out there.

For example, Duskblade 11/Fiendblooded 2 could use the Fiendish Sorcery ability at Fiendblooded 2 to add any Summon Monster spell to his spells known, so long as it can summon a creature with the Fire descriptor.


Fiendish Sorcery: ...At 2nd level, and again at 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th level, add one additional spell to your spells known list. Each new spell must be of a level that you can cast but can be any spell having the fire descriptor or any spell from the schools of enchantment, illusion, or necromancy.


From Summon Monster 1:

When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.

You could then take one level of Nar Demonbinder, then use Fiendblooded to advance Nar Demonbinder, adding three additional spells known to your Nar Demonbinder list.

This does have disadvantages, however, due to Fiendblooded having a d4 HD and Wizard BAB.

Just throwing it out there.

[Piggy Knowles]

Edit: Now I see what you were talking about. Your duskblade CL will still only be 13th. Your NDB CL will be your character level, however.

CL 15 because of krau sigil, but yeah, it's a bit lower than I'd like.


Edit 2: There is another option for qualifying for the summon requirement of Nar Demonbinder: Fiendblooded from Heroes of Horror.

It would muck with getting both Duskblade 13 and Nar Demonbinder 7th casting, but I'm just putting it out there.

For example, Duskblade 11/Fiendblooded 2 could use the Fiendish Sorcery ability at Fiendblooded 2 to add any Summon Monster spell to his spells known, so long as it can summon a creature with the Fire descriptor.





You could then take one level of Nar Demonbinder, then use Fiendblooded to advance Nar Demonbinder, adding three additional spells known to your Nar Demonbinder list.

This does have disadvantages, however, due to Fiendblooded having a d4 HD and Wizard BAB.

Just throwing it out there.

Hmm... thematically Fiendblooded works, and I might mess around with it a bit more, but I think I'm going to stick with duskblade 13 for now. There are other builds that can hit 8th or 9th level spells with similar BAB, so I figure I might as well keep the full attack arcane channeling, since that does make the build unique.

BUT! Just found a wonderful way around needing Arcane Disciple. Touch of Summoning, from PGE. It gives me acid splash, mage hand and summon monster I (fiendish creatures only). No requirements other than being from the Demon Wastes, and it means I don't need to maintain a certain Wisdom, I'm no longer tied to any particular deity, and I don't need to waste one of my duskblade spell slots.