Bird of Prey (Tippy's Awesome Flying Sniper)

[Emperor Tippy]

Full build broken down level by level

Attributes (32 PB):
Str: 10
Dex: 18 (14 base, +4 Were)
Con: 14 (12 base, +2 Were)
Int: 12
Wis: 34 (18 base, +2 Were, +4 HD, +4 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Cha: 8

ECL 1: Eagle Racial HD
HP: 1d8
BAB: 3/4th (+0)
Fort: +2
Ref: +2
Will: +0
Were Abilities (+4 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis)
Feats: Alertness (Eagle), Weapon Finesse (Eagle), Able Learner (1 HD)

ECL 2: Were LA
ECL 3: Were LA
ECL 4: Were LA

ECL 5: Druid 1 (this variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid))
HP: 2d8
BAB: 3/4th (+1)
Fort: +4
Ref: +2
Will: +2
Feats: Track (Bonus feat)
Abilities:
Monk AC Bonus, Monk Fast Movement, Favored Enemy (as ranger), Swift Tracker (as ranger), Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Animal Companion
Spells: level 0 - 3, level 1 - 1

ECL 6: Soulknife 1(this variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a))
HP: 3d8
BAB: 3/4th (+2)
Fort: +4
Ref: +4
Will: +4
Feats: Hidden Talent (Bonus feat), Weapon Focus: Mindblade (Bonus feat)
Abilities: Mindblade

ECL 7: Soulknife 2
HP: 4d8
BAB: 3/4th (+3)
Fort: +4
Ref: +5
Will: +5
Feats: Pointblank Shot (4 HD)
Abilities: Throw Mindblade

ECL 8: Psion 1
HP: 4d8+1d4
BAB: 2/4th (+3)
Fort: +4
Ref: +5
Will: +7
Feats: Extend Power
Powers: level 1 - 3, PP/day 4 (2 psion, 2 Hidden Talent)

ECL 9: Soulbow 1
HP: 4d8+1d4+1d10
BAB: 3/4th (+3)
Fort: +4
Ref: +7
Will: +9
Feats: Far Shot (Bonus feat)
Abilities: Mind Arrow

ECL 10: Soulbow 2
HP: 4d8+1d4+2d10
BAB: 3/4th (+4)
Fort: +4
Ref: +8
Will: +10
Feats: Iron Will (Hole)
Abilities: Mind Arrow Enhancement (+1 equivalent ability)

ECL 11: Soulbow 3
HP: 4d8+1d4+3d10
BAB: 3/4th (+5)
Fort: +5
Ref: +8
Will: +10
Feats: Precise Shot (Bonus feat), Combat Expertise (8 HD)
Abilities: +1 Mind Arrow

ECL 12: Shiba Protector 1
HP: 4d8+1d4+4d10
BAB: 3/4 (+6/+1)
Fort: +7
Ref: +8
Will: +12
Feats: None
Abilities: No Thought (Wis to attack and damage)

ECL 13: Druid 2
HP: 5d8+1d4+4d10
BAB: 3/4 (+6/+1)
Fort: +8
Ref: +8
Will: +13
Feats: Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos: Weapon Finesse to Dodge, Track to Mobility, Weapon Focus to Zen Archery, Alertness to Combat Reflexes
Abilities: Woodland Stride
Spells: level 0 - 4, level 1 - 2

ECL 14: Shadowdancer 1
HP: 6d8+1d4+4d10
BAB: 3/4 (+7/+2)
Fort: +8
Ref: +10
Will: +13
Feats: None
Abilities: Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

ECL 15: Druid 3
HP: 7d8+1d4+4d10
BAB: 3/4 (+8/+3)
Fort: +8
Ref: +11
Will: +13
Feats: Improved Flight (12 HD)
Abilities: Trackless Step
Spells: level 0 -4, level 1 - 2, level 2 - 1

ECL 16: Druid 4
HP: 8d8+1d4+4d10
BAB: 3/4 (+9/+4)
Fort: +9
Ref: +11
Will: +14
Feats: None
Abilities: Resist Natures Lure
Spells: level 0 - 5, level 1 - 3, level 2 - 2

ECL 17: Druid 5
HP: 9d8+1d4+4d10
BAB: 3/4 (+9/+4)
Fort: +9
Ref: +11
Will: +14
Feats: None
Abilities: None
Spells: level 0 - 5, level 1 - 3, level 2 - 2, level 3 - 1

ECL 18: Druid 6
HP: 10d8+1d4+4d10
BAB: 3/4 (+10/+5)
Fort: +10
Ref: +12
Will: +15
Feats: None
Abilities: None
Spells: level 0 - 5, level 1 - 3, level 2 - 3, level 3 - 2

ECL 19: Druid 7
HP: 11d8+1d4+4d10
BAB: 3/4 (+11/+6/+1)
Fort: +10
Ref: +12
Will: +15
Feats: Improved Flight (16 HD)
Abilities: None
Spells: level 0 - 6, level 1 - 4, level 2 - 3, level 3 - 2, level 4 - 1

ECL 20: Druid 8
HP: 12d8+1d4+4d10
BAB: 3/4 (+12/+7/+6)
Fort: +11
Ref: +12
Will: +16
Feats: None
Abilities: None
Spells: level 0 - 6, level 1 - 4, level 2 - 3, level 3 - 3, level 4 - 2

Condensed version of build

Final Build:
Were-Eagle (1 HD/3 LA)/Druid 1/Soulknife 2/Psion 1/Soulbow 3/Shiba Protector 1/Druid +1 (2 total)/Shadowdancer 1/ Druid +6 (8 total)
HD: 4d10+12d8+1d4
BAB: +12/+7/+6
Fort: +11
Reflex: +12
Will: +12

Unarmored AC Bonus: Wis to AC +1
Unarmored Speed Bonus: +20
Favored Enemy (2)
Swift Tracker
Nature Sense
Wild Empathy
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Resist Nature's Lure
Mindblade
Throw Mindblade
+1 Mind Arrow
Mind Arrow Enhancement (+1)
No Thought
Hide In Plain Sight

Powers Known: Four 1st level (1 from any list), 4 PP
Spells: level 0 - 6, level 1 - 4, level 2 - 3, level 3 - 3, level 4 - 2

Feats: Alertness (Eagle), Weapon Finesse (Eagle), Track (Bonus feat), Able Learner (1 HD), Hidden Talent (Bonus feat), Weapon Focus: Mindblade (Bonus feat), Pointblank Shot (4 HD), Extend Power (bonus feat), Far Shot (Bonus feat), Iron Will (Hole), Precise Shot (Bonus feat), Combat Expertise (8 HD), Dodge (CS Weapon Finesse), Mobility (CS Track), Zen Archery (CS Weapon Focus), Improved Flight (12 HD), Improved Flight (16 HD), Combat Reflexes (CS Alertness), Practiced Manifester: Psion (CS Combat Expertise), Metamorphic Transfer (CS Dodge), Mindsight (CS Mobility), Persistent Power (CS Iron Will)

Feats on final build: Hidden Talent, Pointblank Shot, Extend Power, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Zen Archery, Improved Flight, Improved Flight, Practiced Manifester, Metamorphic Transfer, Mindsight, Able Learner, Persistent Power, Metapower: Persistent Guided Shot, Earth Sense (grab from location and shuffle), Earth Power (grab from location and shuffle)

Type: Human (Shapechange)
HD: 4d10+12d8+1d4+34
Initiative: +4
Speed: 50 ft., fly 100 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 35 (10+13 (Monk AC)+8 Bracers of Armor+4 Dex), touch 27, flat-footed 31
Ranged Attack Bonus: +36/+31/+28 [+12 (Wis from Zen Archery)+12 (Wis from No thought)+12 (BAB)]
Special Attacks: Distance Mind Arrow +37 AB, 1d8+25 Damage (range increment 330)
Special Qualities: Lots
...
Screw it, I might type up the rest of the stat block later. Check out the two Spoilers if you want all the details.

Now onto the fun stuff.

This build would probably suck pretty badly to play up until it hits the late game although it can work around ECL 12-13.

Basic idea is that you spend virtually all your time in your Were form as an Eagle. Before this however, you go and buy a Skin of Proteus at ML 10 and turn into a Spellweaver (MM2 page 187) and use Metamorphic Transfer to get its 1,000 mile telepathy which is combined with Mindsight to let you find all minds within said area. You then use your Were Alternate Form ability (which thanks to how the Skin and AF interact is RAW legal) which carries over the telepathy into Eagle form (and thus the Mindsight).

Use your Soulbow ability for Seeking which negates Concealment. Combined with Mindsight you need never make a Spot check.

Now go and pay a level 17 Spell to Power Erudite (can get any spell from a Wyrm Wizard) with the spell Guided Shot to transfer it to you with Psychic Chiguery, it only costs 1,530 GP and a thousand XP from you. This spell is a swift action and while it is in effect your ranged attacks ignore everything less than total cover and don't take a penalty from Distance. A 5 point cognizance crystal is enough when combined with Earth Power, a Torc of Power Preservation, and Metapower to manifest the Persistent Guided Shot.

So what does all of this mean? That you are an Eagle with a 100 ft. perfect fly speed who can pinpoint the location of any creature within a thousand miles with one Int or greater and that you can then shoot anyone of them within 3,300 feet at no penalty and with a full attack at +36/+31/+28 for 1d8+25 damage.

If your DM rules that Guided Shot doesn't negate concealment then halve the range and use a Seeking enhancement instead. If your DM will let an Amulet of Natural Attacks work with a Mindblade then put Collision (+5 damage), Seeking, and Splitting on it.

Future feats should go to a few iterations of Psionic Talent (and later the epic version) so that you can actually have enough PP to do much of anything. Drop a chunk of money on getting all relevant first or zero level spells and powers for much greater versatility.

Make sure to get permanent See Invisible, Invisible Arcane Sight, Tongues, Telepathic Bond (with each party member and your animal companion), Cloudwings (+30 ft. fly speed, Savage Species), and Improved Blindsight (60 ft. blindsight, Savage Species) along with Incarnate Detect Teleportation (augmented and at ML 20 for 300 ft. range), Danger Sense (augmented for Improved Uncanny Dodge), and Know Direction and Location.

A Wilding Clasped Third Eye Conceal is also a good choice.

Skill wise, max out the relevant ones.

----
So to summarize, you have the AB of a Solar, fly as well as a Primal Air Elemental (better with cloud wings), the AC of a Solar, and consistently out damage a Solar while being able to detect every mind in a thousand miles and shoot anyone within a bit over half a mile of you. All while you get to play as a small little eagle; and you still have 4th level Druid spells.

Incidentally, I think that I could actually make this significantly better with Vow of Poverty (but who wants to play as an exalted :smalltongue: and I don't feel like putting in the work or coming up with the extra 11 feats I would Chaos Shuffle - leave the vow though).

So let's be honest, how many of your groups would be able to realistically deal with this threat at level 20. Especially when Charles has a belt of battle and the ability to use Metapower Linked Synchronicity Synchronicity and Craft Contingent: Favor of the Martyr plus Craft Contingent: Greater Celerity.

Sure they would probably survive (what high level party doesn't have automated get out of danger contingencies?) but that's about all.

So here you go, Charles the Bird of Prey. Not the theoretical best but still very nasty.

I really should write up the level 20 sheet for a VoP Chaos Shuffle Gestalt version with Factotum 8/Fighter or Feat Rogue 12 on it that has maxed Font of Inspiration and got all those nice but not able to fit feats as well.

Incidentally, I originally started this with a Wildshape Ranger/Monk.

[eggynack]

I've been looking forward to this one. It turned out pretty sweet, in the end.

Edit: Now, all you have to do is figure out what to do with all of those low level druid spells. I would think that some long duration buffs would be a good idea. Maybe heart of air and water, for flight speed, heart of water stuff, and light fortification. Primal instinct could be nice too, so that you get the next round after the surprise round arrow attack.

[Phelix-Mu]

Can we call him "Chucky?"

[Emperor Tippy]

I've been looking forward to this one. It turned out pretty sweet, in the end.

Edit: Now, all you have to do is figure out what to do with all of those low level druid spells. I would think that some long duration buffs would be a good idea. Maybe heart of air and water, for flight speed, heart of water stuff, and light fortification. Primal instinct could be nice too, so that you get the next round after the surprise round arrow attack.

Not sure, something useful. I really wish that you could trade your animal companion for the Ranger spell list (and if I wasn't staying strictly RAW I would have just done that).

[shaikujin]

Low level spell slots can be used for healing spells to fuel things like Imbued Healing (bonus of the luck domain).

Tippy, one problem with ranged builds is always how do you get around anti-projectile defenses. Like Deflect Arrows, and spells that protects players from missle attacks?

[Emperor Tippy]

Low level spell slots can be used for healing spells to fuel things like Imbued Healing (bonus of the luck domain).

Tippy, one problem with ranged builds is always how do you get around anti-projectile defenses. Like Deflect Arrows, and spells that protects players from missle attacks?

Deflect Arrows is only once per round until Epic, and this is a Su effect so it can't be deflected in the first place.

Wind Wall either does nothing (if it's not a normal ranged attack) or gives 30% miss chance that is negated by Guided Shot and Seeking (as again it's an Su and not an arrow or bolt so it's not just flat deflected).

[Metahuman1]

Make sure to grab hanks bow so that you can get around DR as well. And you up your base damage to 2d6.

Oh, and just a though, use the druid spells to break the economy and get money so that you can keep buying exploding exit wound arrows?

Lastly, Mage Slayer line + Power attack on this would be spiffy.

[Emperor Tippy]

Make sure to grab hanks bow so that you can get around DR as well. And you up your base damage to 2d6.
1) can't wield a bow.
2) It already counts as magical, add metalline to the Necklace of Natural Attacks if you want the rest.


Oh, and just a though, use the druid spells to break the economy and get money so that you can keep buying exploding exit wound arrows?
..the whole point of this is that it requires no economic support (it's actually more powerful with VoP) and it doesn't use anything but mind bullets to kill you.


Lastly, Mage Slayer line
Utterly unnecessary, you Charles already ignores all miss chance and everything short of total cover (and with 1 PP for Wraithstrike gets to hit touch AC).

+ Power attack on this would be spiffy.
It's on a bow, at best you are looking at an addition 15 or so damage in exchange for making it highly unlikely you will hit CR appropriate AC's. You already do enough damage to thoroughly screw over most ECL 20 characters (three rounds will kill a Solar, for example).

[Gildedragon]

Wouldn't the divine minion template (Isis) save you 1 LA, 1 HD, and give the same results?

[Emperor Tippy]

Wouldn't the divine minion template (Isis) save you 1 LA, 1 HD, and give the same results?

It would be better actually. Thank you. Didn't realize that template existed. It saves me 2 LA and the HD which means three more levels.

[Gildedragon]

Woot. Glad to have helped.
It's one of my favorite templates.

[flare'90]

From where is Persistent Power?

I don't remember it being in CP or in the XPH.

[Hellwyrm]

Tippy, I think you also have one additional feat, because you have listed the Bird as only gaining one feat every 4 HD instead of the typical 1 feat per 3 HD.

[nedz]

Interesting, but how do you deal with the information overload ? There could be a lot of minds in a 1000 mile radius.

[Vaz]

Persistent Power is 3.0 Psionics, which is a different beast entirely to 3.5 Psionics. I don't think I ever see the two used together.

You can get a similar effect though by having an 8th level Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3 use their Metamagic Effect to Persist the power, however. You can get that via Leadership; obtainable by Flaw and Shuffle.

[TuggyNE]

Interesting, but how do you deal with the information overload ? There could be a lot of minds in a 1000 mile radius.

Not when you're done there won't be.

More seriously, 34 Wis goes a fair ways toward solving this; you can just kind of intuit the enormous flows of data. A bit more Int might be nice, but 12 isn't terrible.

[ShriekingDrake]

Quite cool. These are likley VERY stupid question, but here goes.

Would Friendly Fire thwart this, at least to give whatever you're attacking time to get away?

How about when you're not outside, reducing the advantages of distance?

You're relying a lot on mindsight, how will you deal with undead and other mindless creatures?

[shaikujin]

Deflect Arrows is only once per round until Epic, and this is a Su effect so it can't be deflected in the first place.

Wind Wall either does nothing (if it's not a normal ranged attack) or gives 30% miss chance that is negated by Guided Shot and Seeking (as again it's an Su and not an arrow or bolt so it's not just flat deflected).

Just to share, I ran into problems when doing an archery build previously, which I wasn't able to conquer. Your interpretations may be different, but I'll mention them to see if I can pick your brains for a viable solution.



1) Due to the epic Infinite Deflection feat, archery builds get into trouble when they reach epic levels. If the character isn't expected to be played into epic levels (or face enemies with more than 20 HD), then this is not an issue.

2) Wind Wall specifically states arrows and bolts are deflected. It doesn't care even if the arrows are Force arrows, or SU effects. As long as it's an arrow, it gets stopped cold...

Even though Soulbow's Mind Arrow is an SU ability, it specifically states that the Mind Arrow is identical in all ways (except visually) to an arrow shot from a composite longbow.

Even the 8th level Soulbow ability "Phase Arrow", only allows the Mind Arrow to bypass non-magical barriers. A wall of force, wall of fire, wall of ectoplasm,
or the like stops a mind arrow.

Wind Wall would fall into the "or the like" category.



So I stopped making archery builds. Would welcome any ideas to make it viable.

[Piggy Knowles]

I like this, quite a lot.

I know this is becoming my standard suggestion for anything remotely archery, but if you get back three levels by switching to a mulhorandi divine minion of Isis, you could then go for two levels of Chameleon. That'll give you access to second level ranger/assassin archery spells, as well as a free floating bonus feat.

I've been messing around with favored enemy builds that use the feat Murderous Intent alongside Chameleon's floating feat for Extra Favored Enemy and the hunter's mercy spell, to auto-crit against enemies. That could be especially nice alongside your guided long range seeking missiles mind arrows. Since you're building this as a sniper build anyhow and you already have favored enemy, it could be nice to fit in (and would of course give you access to some of the ranger spells you mentioned wanting on the build).

[Humble Master]

A bird that flies 3000 feet above the earth, then swoops down to fire 3 perfectly accurate mind bullets? I love this. It actually gives me an idea for making a Star Trek ship with D and D rules.

[Darrin]

It would be better actually. Thank you. Didn't realize that template existed. It saves me 2 LA and the HD which means three more levels.

Hengeyokai Sparrow can do it with no HD and no LA (assuming you can get your hands on Dragon Magazine #318 for the OA 3.5 update).

[shaikujin]

I like this, quite a lot.

I know this is becoming my standard suggestion for anything remotely archery, but if you get back three levels by switching to a mulhorandi divine minion of Isis, you could then go for two levels of Chameleon. That'll give you access to second level ranger/assassin archery spells, as well as a free floating bonus feat.

I've been messing around with favored enemy builds that use the feat Murderous Intent alongside Chameleon's floating feat for Extra Favored Enemy and the hunter's mercy spell, to auto-crit against enemies. That could be especially nice alongside your guided long range seeking missiles mind arrows. Since you're building this as a sniper build anyhow and you already have favored enemy, it could be nice to fit in (and would of course give you access to some of the ranger spells you mentioned wanting on the build).

Is there a weapon enchantment or a feat that also allows you to treat your weapon a a bane weapon against favored enemies?

I thought I read it somewhere, but couldn't find it.

[Togo]

I'm pretty sure there is.

...I can't find it either though. hm.


I'm trying to think of vulnerabilities to this. What would it do to an opponent with a Tower shield? Against bad weather, whether natural or magically induced? What's to stop someone teleporting nearby, thus negating the range advantage, or simply healing themselves as they approach?

As for wind wall, how about the blood seeking enchantment from complete warrior?

[nedz]

Is there a weapon enchantment or a feat that also allows you to treat your weapon a a bane weapon against favored enemies?

I thought I read it somewhere, but couldn't find it.

There's a spell Foebane level 4 [SpC]: weapon becomes +5 Bane

[Urpriest]

Amusingly enough, that level of Shadowdancer actually does very little. Even Curmudgeon's ridiculously permissive ruling on what counts as a shadow won't allow you to find shadows in mid-air.

You can't use metapsionics with Earth Power. Earth Power specifically disallows you from expending your focus to enhance the power in any other way, and Metapower (unlike Dominant Ideal Ardent) still has you expend your focus as normal.

[Piggy Knowles]

Is there a weapon enchantment or a feat that also allows you to treat your weapon a a bane weapon against favored enemies?

I thought I read it somewhere, but couldn't find it.

Bane of Enemies, but it's epic.

[shaikujin]

Bane of Enemies, but it's epic.

Thanks, yeah, the feat I was thinking of is probably Bane of Enemies.




There's a spell Foebane level 4 [SpC]: weapon becomes +5 Bane


I'm pretty sure there is.

...I can't find it either though. hm.



Thanks. Looking through the MIC, I might have been thinking of the relic power of Raptor Arrows. So, not a standard property after all :(

[Man on Fire]

I bet it's a really good build, but I'll be honest - I'm not a fan of builds that have one-level dips into PrC unless it's Wizard and Frenzied Berserker dipping Red Wizard of Thay and Thayan Knight.

[Togo]

Actually, what's to stop a party just shooting him? AC 35 isn't that great at 20th level.

Also, as sniper, one drawback. If his target was in total cover, how would he tell?

[Emperor Tippy]

I bet it's a really good build, but I'll be honest - I'm not a fan of builds that have one-level dips into PrC unless it's Wizard and Frenzied Berserker dipping Red Wizard of Thay and Thayan Knight.
*shrug*
You can drop the Shadowdancer without too much problem and put another level into Druid and the other three into Soulbow. The Psion dip is needed for Metamorphic Transfer and for the Persistent Guided Shot although you can dump it for Assume Supernatural Ability but the loss of the PGS really hurts and is hard to get in a manner native to the build.

The Shiba Protector is needed to pick up the second Wis to attack and damage so that you can actually be relevant at the expected ECL/CR.


Actually, what's to stop a party just shooting him? AC 35 isn't that great at 20th level.
He's upwards of 3,000 feet away?

Otherwise known as outside the range of even long range spells at CL 20.

He's also small so plus a little there for AC and it can be pushed higher (again not that it really matters).


Also, as sniper, one drawback. If his target was in total cover, how would he tell?
Make your Mind Arrows Blood Seeking, ignore everything up to (and including) total cover.

Besides, this isn't a build for fighting under ground or in a dungeon.

[shaikujin]

Make your Mind Arrows Blood Seeking, ignore everything up to (and including) total cover.

Besides, this isn't a build for fighting under ground or in a dungeon.

I feel like there's got to be a bulletproof method that we've not found yet.

Search thus far turns up some not so clear cut methods like having a huge character use huge x-bows (that are considered ballistas), specifically having the force effect subsume the arrow and turning it into a "force attack", using sling bullets instead of bows etc

I want to be able to have my arrows punch through the defenses and keep it viable under as many situations as possible.

Hate to have my DM easily shut down my archer if I ever need to enter dungeons. If I can circumvent Infinite Deflection, even better!

[Togo]

He's upwards of 3,000 feet away?

Otherwise known as outside the range of even long range spells at CL 20.

With the right feats and ranger spells, that's easily within range of a composite longbow.



Make your Mind Arrows Blood Seeking, ignore everything up to (and including) total cover..

Which is exactly why suggested that in my first post.


Besides, this isn't a build for fighting under ground or in a dungeon.

No, but it's probably not best to rely on being on a featureless plain either. If there is even a single building within range, they can just shut the doors and summon a storm.

[Emperor Tippy]

With the right feats and ranger spells, that's easily within range of a composite longbow.
Now make the DC 300 or so spot check. Why do you think this build has thousand mile Mindsight in it?


Which is exactly why suggested that in my first post.
*shrug*


No, but it's probably not best to rely on being on a featureless plain either. If there is even a single building within range, they can just shut the doors and summon a storm.
Again, not knowing where they are being shot from tends to put a damper on that. I also did note that this is unlikely to kill a party (too many ways to escape) but that really isn't the point. It forces them to leave the area or waste resources while unable to really respond.

The only way to actually get themselves into range of Charles is with a Wish (as they don't have a good enough idea of location to use any of the other transport methods).

[nedz]

He's upwards of 3,000 feet away?

Otherwise known as outside the range of even long range spells at CL 20.


Long range spell = 400 feet + 40 feet per caster level.
At CL 20 this is 1200 feet
With Enlarge Spell this is 2400 feet.

Working backwards, you need CL 28 to hit the bird with an enlarged spell.

Now CL isn't that hard to optimise.

[killem2]

Where is the divine minion template at? What book?

[Emperor Tippy]

Long range spell = 400 feet + 40 feet per caster level.
At CL 20 this is 1200 feet
With Enlarge Spell this is 2400 feet.

Working backwards, you need CL 28 to hit the bird with an enlarged spell.

Now CL isn't that hard to optimise.

Now make the DC 330 spot check (just from the distance alone) before you even get to make your attack roll.

[Emperor Tippy]

Where is the divine minion template at? What book?

Online, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a).

[killem2]

NOOOO wizards is blocked at work. ah well I'll check it out at home :)

[nedz]

Now make the DC 330 spot check (just from the distance alone) before you even get to make your attack roll.

How are you hiding ?
I just need to obviate your cover and then: no spot roll required.

Also most spells don't have a range increment, so the distance is irrelevant here.

[Emperor Tippy]

How are you hiding ?
I just need to obviate your cover and then: no spot roll required.
The Hide skill? Which is maxed. He can also hide in his animal companion/familiars shadow.

You aren't even making the check pre highish epic.


Also most spells don't have a range increment, so the distance is irrelevant here.
Yeah, because they only work out to their range which isn't enough. At max CL for ECL 20 you are at extreme range for an Enlarged Long spell (which is virtually never prepared and rarely a chosen metamagic), nothing less can hope to hit you.

[Urpriest]

The Hide skill? Which is maxed. He can also hide in his animal companion/familiars shadow.

You aren't even making the check pre highish epic.


What is your companion casting a shadow on? As mentioned, you are in midair.

[mangosta71]

Couple questions - Psion requires a specialization. It looks like it doesn't really matter which one you choose since you just want it to open up a feat, but it seems to me that some specializations are more optimal than others. Is there one in particular that you would suggest? And what powers would you choose? From a quick glance through the first-level powers, Force Screen, Inertial Armor, and Synesthete look like they would be the most beneficial.

Actually, would Psychic Warrior be better for dipping than Psion? You would only get one power instead of three, but your bonus PP would be WIS- instead of INT-based so you'd get a lot more mileage out of it with this stat array. You could take Compression to make yourself even smaller to increase the DC of the Spot check...

[kernal42]

This is why the Underdark exists.

[Emperor Tippy]

What is your companion casting a shadow on? As mentioned, you are in midair.

Line it up with the sun and get in front of it so that it casts a shadow on you. Or just fly down and hide in a trees shadow, from then on you remain hidden until someone spots you. It's only a -20. Besides, you can shoot from behind total cover or total concealment without a problem.


Couple questions - Psion requires a specialization. It looks like it doesn't really matter which one you choose since you just want it to open up a feat, but it seems to me that some specializations are more optimal than others. Is there one in particular that you would suggest? And what powers would you choose? From a quick glance through the first-level powers, Force Screen, Inertial Armor, and Synesthete look like they would be the most beneficial.
Specilization, not sure. For at least one of the powers, Synchronicity.


Actually, would Psychic Warrior be better for dipping than Psion? You would only get one power instead of three, but your bonus PP would be WIS- instead of INT-based so you'd get a lot more mileage out of it with this stat array. You could take Compression to make yourself even smaller to increase the DC of the Spot check...
Possibly, I forget why I had decided against it. Might replace it if/when I polish this up.

[Toliudar]

This is awesome fun.

Is there any kind of ruling about Mindsight ignoring standard line of effect rules? Otherwise, things like ceilings, rough terrain, a forest canopy will give this build problems. At the high levels at which this build (pardon the pun) soars, Mind Blank will also be an issue - depending on how you interpret Mind Blank.

Again, much fun!

[Gildedragon]

Hmmm
I am curious as to how you'd deal with this character as a DM, Tippy. What sort of challenges and obstacles to throw; because I'm honestly stumped

[Emperor Tippy]

This is awesome fun.

Is there any kind of ruling about Mindsight ignoring standard line of effect rules? Otherwise, things like ceilings, rough terrain, a forest canopy will give this build problems.
At the high levels at which this build (pardon the pun) soars, Mind Blank will also be an issue - depending on how you interpret Mind Blank.
Telepathy and Mindsight don't need LoE and Mindsight beats Mindblank (and pretty much everything else.


Hmmm
I am curious as to how you'd deal with this character as a DM, Tippy. What sort of challenges and obstacles to throw; because I'm honestly stumped
If part of a party? I throw challenges at the party. Someone throws up a Widened Sculped Forcecage (fairly standard to contain the battlefield) and all the sudden the Bird of Prey is useless as he can't shoot through a Forcecage.

Force underground or indoor fights.

That kind of stuff.

[Urpriest]

Telepathy and Mindsight don't need LoE and Mindsight beats Mindblank (and pretty much everything else.

Got a quote to back that up?

[Emperor Tippy]

Got a quote to back that up?

Line of Effect only applies to spells, Telepathy is an SU and Mindsight is a feat. Neither replicates a spell, neither is stated to require LoE, both specifically state how they work (in the case of the telepathy that this build uses it says "Telepathy (Su): Spell weavers can communicate with each other telepathically at a range of up to 1,000 miles.").

Specific trumps general, it is specifically said to be able to communicate; ergo it can (just like you can Planar Bind a creature on another plane, where you won't ever have LoE).

Mindsight says "A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy.".

Again, specific trumps general.

And according to the Rules Compendium the only general rule for when you need Line of Effect is "You must have line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast, such as the center of a fireball. A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin—a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin."

Neither Telepathy or Mindsight casts a spell on any creature and only creates an effect in your square, so it doesn't apply.

[Toliudar]

Good to know. This also ramps up the power of Scent significantly, since it also lacks a specific exclusion for line of effect. Thanks!

[Renen]

Why not a bird of pray?
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSsB74GHe0n9AX06qwsFPDBHnkzhTlp0 wGJxAuAN9dmDpmehNZR

[Spuddles]

Ehh, a level 20 party wouldnt have much combat trouble with the lone gunman, but they would need to take some time in finding it.

Rope trick + hyperconsciousness + teleport is all they really need.

The lone gunman also has no idea if his arrows are hitting his target or how effective they are. This makes it a little difficult for him to adapt his strategy.

Lastly, shiba protector requires race human, so you're stuck with being a were bird.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ehh, a level 20 party wouldnt have much combat trouble with the lone gunman, but they would need to take some time in finding it.

Rope trick + hyperconsciousness + teleport is all they really need.

The lone gunman also has no idea if his arrows are hitting his target or how effective they are. This makes it a little difficult for him to adapt his strategy.
He knows if his target dies. And with a Third Eye Sense you can actually spy on them just fine..

Hypercognition works but it requires that the targets have a high level Seer with them.


Lastly, shiba protector requires race human, so you're stuck with being a were bird.
That's what PAO is for.

You only need to meet PrC prerequisites when you take your first level of the PrC if it is not a PrC in Complete Warrior technically.

[Crasical]

Laser falcon, nooooo (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_R1_vvvQiGQ/Tr2CDmHiQSI/AAAAAAAAARE/Oh0lP0Au3Ak/s1600/The%2BArt%2Bof%2BMulga%2B-%2BThe%2BFalcon%2B-%2BDeath%2Bfrom%2BAbove.jpg)

[Daftendirekt]

A bird that flies 3000 feet above the earth, then swoops down to fire 3 perfectly accurate mind bullets? I love this.

I love it as well, especially when phrased the way you put it.

[killem2]

Earlier in this thread, you mentioned you saved a couple levels, would it be worth it to use that to make it a dark creature or shadow (forgot which does the hide in plain sight thing)

[Gildedragon]

That'd be dark. though shadow likely has it too at a higher LA cost

[Spuddles]

He knows if his target dies. And with a Third Eye Sense you can actually spy on them just fine..

What high level party doesn't have mindblank up at all times?

And telling whether something is dead or not dead isn't really a whole lot of info. Even if all your attacks land vs. a target, you still have no idea if any of them landed or how much damage got through or what. And how can you tell if a creature dies vs. if a creature just leaves the range of your mindsight?


That's what PAO is for.

lol

"most parties couldn't beat this"

proceeds to abuse the hell out of the cheesiest mechanics in the game.


Earlier in this thread, you mentioned you saved a couple levels, would it be worth it to use that to make it a dark creature or shadow (forgot which does the hide in plain sight thing)

Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis gets you that ability without having to eat the LA. But as long as PAO and Metamorphic Transfer are being abused, may as well throw some illithid savant or whatever in there and start eating the brains of Phanes and level 20 factotums.

The coolest trick here, imo, is the interaction of a lycanthrope's alternate form and the Skin of Proteus.

[Gildedragon]

Why are things getting PAOed? I feel I've missed something.

Human+Template is still human no?

[Slipperychicken]

Since he's so far out of range of all but the strongest means of magical detection (Basic True Seeing is only 120ft), it seems like getting Silence+(Superior) Invisibility would be perfect for him.

If there's some way to apply Brilliant Energy, he should be able to shoot through walls too. Not sure on the RAW of that, but I once heard a story about an archer using divinations and Brilliant Energy to essentially have wallhax and snipe people through a building's walls.

[Piggy Knowles]

If there's some way to apply Brilliant Energy, he should be able to shoot through walls too. Not sure on the RAW of that, but I once heard a story about an archer using divinations and Brilliant Energy to essentially have wallhax and snipe people through a building's walls.

In my archer build guide in my sig, there is an archer that does just that (and also has Imbue Arrow, to attach spells as well). It takes a little bit of fiat, because brilliant energy says that only a "significant portion" turns to light, rather than the whole thing, but also says it ignores nonliving material completely.

[Piggy Knowles]

Sorry for the double post, but I was updating my archer build compendium. Mind if I include a link to this one in it?

[Emperor Tippy]

Sorry for the double post, but I was updating my archer build compendium. Mind if I include a link to this one in it?

Fine with me.

[Feint's End]

Now go and pay a level 17 Spell to Power Erudite (can get any spell from a Wyrm Wizard) with the spell Guided Shot to transfer it to you with Psychic Chiguery

Erudites can't learn Psychic Chirurgery unless you get a 10th level slot somehow since you only can learn discipline powers of one level lower than your highest level power known and Psychic Chirurgery is a 9th level Telepath only power.

Edit: And please correct me if I'm wrong ... maybe there is a way around that I'm not aware of and in that case I'd greatly profit from it for my own Erudites.

[Emperor Tippy]

Erudites can't learn Psychic Chirurgery unless you get a 10th level slot somehow since you only can learn discipline powers of one level lower than your highest level power known and Psychic Chirurgery is a 9th level Telepath only power.

Edit: And please correct me if I'm wrong ... maybe there is a way around that I'm not aware of and in that case I'd greatly profit from it for my own Erudites.

The Erudite pays a telepath to give them Psychic Chiurgery with Psychic Chiurgery.

You can also use Metaconcert to combine the Psion with PC and the StP Erudite and then have the Metaconcert transfer the StP's spell powers that you want.

EDIT: It's one reason that I find Erudite a far worse choice than pure Psion. A pure Psion can pick up every power (and eventually every spell, arcane or divine) as a power known relatively easily. The only moderately difficult ones are 9th level powers from other Disciplines.

Just use an Ice Assassin of yourself (make it with a scroll or pay a wizard that you trust) and then Psychic Reform it to give it all different powers from you (except PC) and use Expanded Knowledge for the non Psion powers (or lower level versions of powers) and then have it burn XP to give them to you before using a thought bottle to regain XP and do it again.

On ECL 20 WBL you can end up with, quite literally, every spell and power in the game as one of your powers known without too much hassle.

[shaikujin]

Erudites can't learn Psychic Chirurgery unless you get a 10th level slot somehow since you only can learn discipline powers of one level lower than your highest level power known and Psychic Chirurgery is a 9th level Telepath only power.

Edit: And please correct me if I'm wrong ... maybe there is a way around that I'm not aware of and in that case I'd greatly profit from it for my own Erudites.

Pre-epic Erudites can't learn Psychic Chirurgery themselves.

But the Erudite can pay another Psion who knows Psychic Chirurgery to Psychic Chirurgery it to him.



Edit: Swordsaged.
On a related note, level 9 spells can be learned as well.
You only need an epic erudite to do the initial conversion. Once he has done this, it becomes like any normal level 8 9 power that can be Psychic Chirurgery'd to you.
For extreme cheese in full magic/psionic transparency games, do this to martial maneuvers via a Gem dragon with the Wyrm of War archetype (apply to DWK if it's not cheesy enough), or Arcane Swordsage.

[Feint's End]

But the Erudite can pay another Psion who knows Psychic Chirurgery to Psychic Chirurgery it to him.

sounds reasonable this way ... thanks