[3.5] Gestalt stacking?

[Yael]

I need to advance a gestalt build with Wizard 20, but I want it to be a gish with different class options. Like monk, swashbuckler and swordsage (due to another forum member's suggestion, thanks if you see this :smallwink:)

So, my question is: If I advance a gestalt, and decide to enter another class while one class is still the same (I would keep wizard, in this case), the levels of the class I decided to keep (wizard, again) stack with each other?
(though that would be OP to stack 20 levels of fighter 1 with different classes to gain a lot of variety (not that broken, but kind of overpowered).

[Emperor Tippy]

Go Wizard 20 (well throw on the PrC's that you want)//Factotum 1/Monk 1/Factotum 18.

Take Kung Fu Genius at level one so that Monk AC works off of Int.

Take lots of Font of Inspiration. After Factotum 8 you can cunning surge for an extra standard action (i.e. an extra spell). At level 20 you can be throwing out 90 Inspiration points, or 30 Cunning Surge's. That is potentially 32 spells in one turn before anyone else gets to act.

The Factotum 11 ability also lets you ignore SR and eventually you get a constant dodge bonus to AC equal to Int (so Int to AC twice, plus get some Bracers of Armor for more if you want it).

Use the Factotum's Arcane Dilettante ability for those odd spells that you won't otherwise prepare.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think you're a bit confused on how the system works. You don't necessarily stick the two classes side by side and take the same class level in each. If you go Wizard//Swashbuckler for three levels and then Wizard//Monk for two levels, you'll have Wizard 5 plus Swashbuckler 3/Monk 2, not Wizard 3 plus Swashbuckler 3/ Wizard 2 plus Monk 2. You don't take the first and second Wizard level twice with that, you take the next two levels of Wizard along with Monk. You can't pick what class level to take at any given level, you can only get the next level in any given class, otherwise it would be easy to abuse some sort of build that takes Rogue 1 every level for twenty levels for +20d6 sneak attack. You can only take the 1st level of a class if you don't have any levels in it yet, so it never gets reset.

You get the best of what your next level of Class A would give when combined with what your next level of Class B would give. In the above example, you would get the best of Wizard 1//Swashbuckler 1, then Wizard 2//Swashbuckler 2, then Wizard 3//Swashbuckler 3, then Wizard 4//Monk 1, then Wizard 5//Monk 2.

[Yael]

Ok, now, what happens with BAB and saves?

[Emperor Tippy]

Ok, now, what happens with BAB and saves?

Let's say that you gestalt Wizard and Monk at level 1.

Wizard has the following:
d4 HD
1/2 BAB (+0 at level 1)
Fort: +0
Ref: +0
Will +2
2+Int skill points.

Monk has the following:
d8 HD
3/4 BAB (+0 at level 1)
Fort: +2
Ref: +2
Will: +2
4+ Int skill points.

A Gestalt Wizard 1//Monk 1 has the following:
d8 HD (better than the wizards d4 so you use it)
3/4 BAB (+0 at level 1, better than the wizard so you use it)
Fort: +2 (better than the wizard so you use it)
Ref: +2 (better than the wizard so you use it)
Will + 2 (both classes are the same so you just get the bonus, you don't combine them for +4 or the like)
4+ Int skill points (better than the wizard).

Wizard 1//Fighter 1 would have the following:
d10 HD (fighter is better)
Full AB (+1 at level 1, fighter is better)
Fort: +2 (from the fighter)
Ref: +0 (same for both classes)
Will +2 (wizard is better so its used)
2+Int mod skill points (same for both classes)

Understand?

[Yael]

I know what do gestalting offers, but if I adquire another class (like swashbuckler) at level 3rd (let's say).

Wizard | Monk
Wizard | Monk
Wizard | Swashbuckler

What happens here?

BAB:
+0
+1
+???

Saves:
Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
Fort +3 / Ref +3 / Will +3
Fort +? / Ref +? / Will +?

Let's say that it works like on a multiclass, then at this rate, at 3rd level this gestalt would get BAB of +2 and saves of Fort +5 / Ref +4 / Will +3

Then I add another Swashbuckler level.
Wizard | Monk
Wizard | Monk
Wizard | Swashbuckler
Wizard | Swashbuckler

The BAB would increase by +1 (due to BAB good that swashbuckler posees).
And the saves would be:
Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
Fort +3 / Ref +3 / Will +3
Fort +5 / Ref +4 / Will +3
Fort +6 / Ref +4 / Will +4

Is that how gestalt works?

[Emperor Tippy]

I know what do gestalting offers, but if I adquire another class (like swashbuckler) at level 3rd (let's say).

Wizard | Monk
Wizard | Monk
Wizard | Swashbuckler

What happens here?

BAB:
+0
+1
+???

Saves:
Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
Fort +3 / Ref +3 / Will +3
Fort +? / Ref +? / Will +?

Let's say that it works like on a multiclass, then at this rate, at 3rd level this gestalt would get BAB of +2 and saves of Fort +5 / Ref +4 / Will +3

Then I add another Swashbuckler level.
Wizard | Monk
Wizard | Monk
Wizard | Swashbuckler
Wizard | Swashbuckler

The BAB would increase by +1 (due to BAB good that swashbuckler posees).
And the saves would be:
Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
Fort +3 / Ref +3 / Will +3
Fort +5 / Ref +4 / Will +3
Fort +6 / Ref +4 / Will +4

Is that how gestalt works?


Basic gestalt rules are just look at the level table for each class and then take the best of each save, best BAB, best HD, and best skill points.

There are also fractional saves and BAB but you don't need to worry about that.

[Jeff the Green]

Basic gestalt rules are just look at the level table for each class and then take the best of each save, best BAB, best HD, and best skill points.

There are also fractional saves and BAB but you don't need to worry about that.

I don't think that's quite accurate. If it were, a Wizard 20//Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19 would have BAB 20. Instead, treat each side as its own character for base saves and BAB. For each level, use the better HD and skill points.

[Emperor Tippy]

I don't think that's quite accurate. If it were, a Wizard 20//Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19 would have BAB 20. Instead, treat each side as its own character for base saves and BAB. For each level, use the better HD and skill points.

Yes, that is why fractional rules are recommended for Gestalt.

Haven't you ever seen the Gestalt's that go X 20//q 1/ w1/e1, etc. with good save classes? Do it right and your saves can all be above +12 at around level 10.

[Jeff the Green]

Yes, that is why fractional rules are recommended for Gestalt.

Haven't you ever seen the Gestalt's that go X 20//q 1/ w1/e1, etc. with good save classes? Do it right and your saves can all be above +12 at around level 10.

Well, yes, but you can do that with a non-gestalt build too. You just won't be very useful because your BAB will be nil and you won't have (m)any synergistic class features.

[DeusMortuusEst]

I don't think that's quite accurate. If it were, a Wizard 20//Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19 would have BAB 20. Instead, treat each side as its own character for base saves and BAB. For each level, use the better HD and skill points.

It's funny, because I've always thought that's how you do gestalt, take the better from each side upon each level up. Sure, you can get good BAB, but that's the point, right?

[Jeff the Green]

It's funny, because I've always thought that's how you do gestalt, take the better from each side upon each level up. Sure, you can get good BAB, but that's the point, right?

Well, yes, but normally you're sacrificing something. A Wizard//Fighter is sacrificing sorcerer casting compared to a Wizard//Sorcerer. But a Wizard 20//Fighter 1//Sorcerer 19 isn't sacrificing anything for that full BAB.

[Chronos]

The way I think of it: For every class ability or feature, pick one class at each level, and treat it as a non-gestalt character with those levels. So for instance, for a wiz 20 // fighter 1/sorc 19, if you want to know what your wizard casting is, you'd pick the wizard side every time, and your equivalent non-gestalt build would be wiz 20. Thus, you'd have wizard casting like a level 20 wizard (which you already knew).

On the other hand, to calculate your BAB, you could say you're picking fighter at the first level, then wizard at the second, then sorcerer at the third, and so on... But this would mean that your non-gestalt equivalent build, for purposes of BAB, would be fighter 1/wiz 1/sorc 1/wiz 1/sorc 1/.... And this build has a BAB of only 10, which is what you'd expect from a build that's almost entirely made up of poor BAB classes.

Now suppose that you just had a build that was wiz 20 // fighter 20. In this case, when you're calculating BAB, you'd always pick the fighter side, and so your equivalent non-gestalt, for purposes of BAB, would be fighter 20. You'd get full BAB, because that's what the fighter side of that build is for.

If you're just doing a simple build without trying to exploit the rules, this method will give you pretty much what you'd expect. If you are trying to exploit the rules, though, this will stop (at least some of) the exploit.

[genericwit]

If you want something gishy as a wizard, definitely get some swashbuckler on the other side. Hell, Wiz 2O//Rogue4/Swashbuckler 16 with Daring Outlaw could be a kickass build . Or, if you like maneuvers, Wizard 2O/Swashbuckler 3/Warblade 17 [Tons of Awesome maneuvers, tons of spells, int to damage].

Also, consider doing 9 levels of Swiftblade http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327 for either Wiz 11/Swiftblade 9//Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 or [B]Wiz 11/Swiftblade 9//Swashbuckler 3/Warblade 17. Swiftblade is soooo much better for gishes than straight casters, but especially for initiators. You lose 3 levels of casting, but still end up [with the latter option] with 9th level spells, 9th level maneuvers [suck my Time Stands Still], Full BAB, Good Fort and Will Saves, good HP, Awesome Int Synergy, and a totally kickass bag of goodies from Swiftblade.

For this build, you should probably use a rapier or something, but nothing says you have to. Since you need light armor to cast anyway, though, Dex couldn't hurt. So your stat priorities should be something like Int>Dex>Str=Con>Wis>Cha. Try to keep Wisdom above 1O, Str and Con are less important than Dex because they are typically easier to buff [later in the game, it's hard to buff Dex without leaning on enhancement bonuses]. This is also one of the few cases where taking Rapid Blitz wouldn't be too bad.

Also, from the Gestalt Description:
To make a 1st-level gestalt character, choose two standard classes. (You can also choose any of the variant classes, though you can’t combine two versions of the same class.) Build your character according to the following guidelines.
Hit Dice

Choose the larger Hit Die. A monk/sorcerer would use d8 as her Hit Die and have 8 hit points (plus Constitution modifier) at 1st level, for example.
Base Attack Bonus

Choose the better progression from the two classes.
Base Saving Throw Bonuses

For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2—taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class.
Class Skills

Take the number of skill points gained per level from whichever class grants more skill points, and consider any skill on either class list as a class skill for the gestalt character. For example, a gestalt barbarian/bard would gain skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifier (and have four times this amount at 1st level), arid can purchase skills from both the barbarian and bard lists as class skills.
Class Features

A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes. A 1st-level gestalt rogue/cleric, for example, gets sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, 1st-level cleric spells, and the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Class- and ability-based restrictions (such as arcane spell failure chance and a druid’s prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is.

A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however.

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.
A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

So that means, you get the better of saves and BAB *increases*, HD, and Skill Points from the better of both classes in each category, class skills from the both classes, and class abilities from both classes.