Ideas to kill a Tarrasque

[drakoonity]

Ok so in my campaign we are getting ready to fight the Tarrasque which I'm still currently pumped but scared at the same time, but does anyone here have any ideas or tips and what not to help kill S.O.B. with the least amount of casualties as possibly. In our party we have a cleric, paladin, ranger, minotaur fighter, duskblade, monk/psychic warrior, and a samurai all level 15 except the duskblade and monk they are level 13.

[eggynack]

Cast summon undead IV from the spell compendium to get an allip. Send the allip at the tarrasque. Have the allip drain the tarrasque of all of his wisdom until he hits zero. Fly far out of melee range while this is happening. The tarrasque isn't very difficult.

[Emperor Tippy]

Scroll of Maximized Memory Rot (druid 5 spell), guaranteed to drop Big T in one round with no chance of failure.

[Skrobo]

What about his Spell resistance?

Edit: doesn't he has ability damage immunity aswell? Can't remember

[Mithril Leaf]

What about his Spell resistance?

Edit: doesn't he has ability damage immunity aswell? Can't remember

No ability drain immunity.

Also, check the other thread that your DM or something started.

[Skrobo]

I have nothing to do with the game in question, I just saw this post and had a couple of questions.

Regarding ability damage / drain, Memory Rot entry in SRD states "The spores deal 1d6 points of Intelligence damage immediately". The drain effect is the one that allows a fortitude save, and that T will easily pass.

[TuggyNE]

Regarding ability damage / drain, Memory Rot entry in SRD states "The spores deal 1d6 points of Intelligence damage immediately". The drain effect is the one that allows a fortitude save, and that T will easily pass.

Memory rot is not OGL, and is not part of the SRD. Chances are what you saw is either illegally copied, or else outright homebrew. (The dandwiki strikes again?)

[MukkTB]

The Tarrasque is very underpowered. At one point, it was a sport to figure out how cheaply and how low leveled you could actually be to beat it. It was like bull baiting, big stupid thing sure to lose but spectacular to watch executed. Some of the kill methods got really elaborate. Then that got boring and people moved on. I haven't seen interest in the Tarrasque in months. The short answer is that many different kinds of optimized strategies and cheese can wipe him out, but it can be done easily and low op: Fly above his ability to reach you while shooting him. He can't fly and doesn't have ranged attacks.

The long answer is this:
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dkb1/dnd/tarrasque.txt

[Darrin]

Some other methods to kill a Tarrasque:

Blister Oil Bomb. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12138520&postcount=94)

Ride 'Em Cowboy! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188302)

[Eldan]

My favourite was drowning it. Walls of Force and create water.

[Chronos]

My favorite is the Grandmother Method, which doesn't actually kill or incapacitate him, but which does keep him from going on a destructive rampage until he goes back to sleep (which should count as "defeating" him).

The key is Big T's motivation. He's not evil or malicious; he's just hungry. So you feed him. The cleric spell Heroes' Feast produces enough delicious food to feed one creature per caster level for a day, and never specifies any maximum size for the creatures. So you set the table and conjure up a six-course banquet for each of your party members, plus a fifty-ton pile of cow carcasses at your guest of honor's place. If the Tarrasque is ruled to be super-hungry, fine, he gets to take all of the leftovers (and frankly, disposing of the leftovers is always the hardest part of a feast, anyway). Repeat every day for a couple of weeks, and he goes back to bed for a few centuries.

[Eldan]

That's... surprisingly smart. I like it.

[Humble Master]

My favorite is the Grandmother Method, which doesn't actually kill or incapacitate him, but which does keep him from going on a destructive rampage until he goes back to sleep (which should count as "defeating" him).

The key is Big T's motivation. He's not evil or malicious; he's just hungry. So you feed him. The cleric spell Heroes' Feast produces enough delicious food to feed one creature per caster level for a day, and never specifies any maximum size for the creatures. So you set the table and conjure up a six-course banquet for each of your party members, plus a fifty-ton pile of cow carcasses at your guest of honor's place. If the Tarrasque is ruled to be super-hungry, fine, he gets to take all of the leftovers (and frankly, disposing of the leftovers is always the hardest part of a feast, anyway). Repeat every day for a couple of weeks, and he goes back to bed for a few centuries.

He he he. This is my new favorite way to stop the Tarrasque.

[Mirakk]

Simulacrum is an easy way. Attack fully buffed and flying. Steal a piece of its scale or a toenail or what have you, then fly off. Create two simulacrums and go to town on that.


Or summon Allips and attack his Wisdom score from beneath the ground until he's in a coma. This is probably the easiest. A Master of Shrouds can do this easily by 13th level.


Or you can dig a giant hole in the ground magically, and create and shrink a crude collossal statue made of iron with wall of iron and fabricate. (Consult with your DM 1st! Sketchy ruling there) Then shrink the statue until it's medium size and cast an illusion on it so it looks like you fleeing in terror. Go piss off the Terrasque and fly as fast as you can in the direction of the statue. He'll swallow it. Run him over the pit which is also disguised with an illusion. He falls into the water, and you end the shrink item effect. Suddenly he's got a colossal hunk of iron in his belly, and is underwater. GG


(Edit: Ah, Mukk found the original. Beat me to it. :P)

[Mithril Leaf]

My favorite is the Grandmother Method, which doesn't actually kill or incapacitate him, but which does keep him from going on a destructive rampage until he goes back to sleep (which should count as "defeating" him).

The key is Big T's motivation. He's not evil or malicious; he's just hungry. So you feed him. The cleric spell Heroes' Feast produces enough delicious food to feed one creature per caster level for a day, and never specifies any maximum size for the creatures. So you set the table and conjure up a six-course banquet for each of your party members, plus a fifty-ton pile of cow carcasses at your guest of honor's place. If the Tarrasque is ruled to be super-hungry, fine, he gets to take all of the leftovers (and frankly, disposing of the leftovers is always the hardest part of a feast, anyway). Repeat every day for a couple of weeks, and he goes back to bed for a few centuries.

This is awesome.

[Shaynythyryas]

For strategies involving Int loss or Wis loss, stop me if I'm wrong, but :


Special Qualities:
Carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage, regeneration 40, scent, spell resistance 32

[mattie_p]

Ability damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityDamage) is not the same thing as ability drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityDrain). That is all.

[Mithril Leaf]

Technically Hostile Empathic Transfer can take Big T out in the traditional lethal damage way because it has a clause that specifically bypasses regeneration, and the whole wish to take him out thing is part of that listing. I've been trying to make a viable build off it, but you have to actually have a reasonable number of levels do it. I was hoping for Telepath 5, but I can't think of a way to get immunity to critical hits or enough legitimate HP to tank him properly. I guess maybe hiring an NPC buffer, but that's kinda cheating.

[Ignominia]

Ability damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityDamage) is not the same thing as ability drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityDrain). That is all.

I gotta assume that that reasoning violates RAI in a big way...

[graymachine]

Why kill it at all when there are more interesting (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?261519-D-amp-Dish-The-city-built-around-the-tarrasque) things you could do?

[Telonius]

I gotta assume that that reasoning violates RAI in a big way...

I honestly don't think so. Ability damage and Ability drain are two separate effects (with Drain usually being the nastier). Big T has immunity to Ability Damage and Energy drain (actually a separate thing from ability drain - Energy Drain is a supernatural ability of vampires, wights, and other things like that), but not ability drain.

The section on Divine ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#energyDrainAbilityDrainAb ilityDamage) specifically calls out deities as being immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain. So at least at that point, the developers understood that all three of those things are separate abilities. If they'd wanted the Tarrasque to have immunity to ability drain, they would have added it (either in the initial publication, or in the errata).

[Shining Wrath]

May I suggest putting a Decanter of Endless Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#decanterofEndlessWater) inside something the Tarrasque will eat, and having a Magic Mouth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMouth.htm) spell on the decanter that will speak the command word "Geyser" upon the specified event "Swallowed"?

Yes, big T is big. But 30 gallons a second is ~four cubic feet of water per second. If the Tarrasque's stomach is 50' by 50' by 50' (REALLY a big beer belly), that's 125,000 cubic feet, and he'll be completely full of water in 31,250 seconds, or 8 hours 40 minutes 50 seconds. A more reasonable stomach size of 20' by 10' by 10' allows you to fill big T in about 9 minutes.

At which point he may burst. Or decide to go back to sleep, being full, and then burst. Or vomit up all that water, if the Tarrasque can vomit at all - why have a vomit reflex when you are a creature capable of eating and digesting anything? In this latter case, the DM would have to rule exactly how incapacitating such an event would be, and whether or not big T would devour his own spewing in the manner of a dog - in which case he'll re-swallow the Decanter.

The Decanter is 9,000 GP. MM is a first level spell. A standard party of four with one caster ought to be able to pool their resources and defeat big T at 2nd level; first level if they can borrow a Decanter.

[Chronos]

OK, I just looked up Memory Rot, and I have to dispute Tippy's interpretation of it. The spell says that you get saves to stop the ongoing effect, but it does not say that you don't get a save for the initial drain. Rather, what it says is "Saving throw: Fortitude negates". Not partial, negates. Which means that if the save is successful, the spell has no effect at all. Now, in this case, it also offers more saves if the initial save is unsuccessful, but that doesn't change the fact that it's Fort negates.

So, all you need to do is get past both the Tarrasque's spell resistance and his Fort save. Easy-peasy.

[TuggyNE]

May I suggest putting a Decanter of Endless Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#decanterofEndlessWater) inside something the Tarrasque will eat, and having a Magic Mouth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMouth.htm) spell on the decanter that will speak the command word "Geyser" upon the specified event "Swallowed"?

Magic mouth can't speak command words.

[Shining Wrath]

Magic mouth can't speak command words.

OK, you need some other mechanism for speaking a word where the decanter can "hear" it post swallowing. Perhaps Shout or Whispering Wind.

[Phelix-Mu]

I agree that the thing is more useful alive than dead. It's mobility isn't epically awesome, so I'd probably trap it somewhere and use it to dispose of artifacts and other dangerous stuff. In any case, I'd also be worried about hijinks involving the origins of the thing, which are often homebrewed, but I've heard stories of different settings or DMs using it's appearance as some kind of doomsday counter, or a divine champion of the gods or whatever (or some DMs just ditching the "there is only one" thing). So killing the damn thing might not even solve the bigger problem.

So, yeah, keep the thing in cows to eat (as the genius suggestion above), or maybe put it inside a rod of security with resetting spell traps of heroes' feast or something. If you have Tongue of the Sun and Moon or telepathy, you can talk the thing into a non-stop feast of its favorite food forever if it does x or y, and they softballed it's motives so badly that there isn't much reason to think the dumb brute wouldn't just follow the trail of dead cows. DM's fiat, though.

Anyway, if you can get it contained and keep it somewhat satisfied, you can pretty much brag about having the coolest pet.:smallwink:

And I'm sure someone somewhere linked to some of the other silliness involving ice assassins or mindswitch or the like.

[Shining Wrath]

The Tarrasque does have an INT of 3. And if you can speak to it for 10 rounds or so (wall of force? flight?) and make a Diplomacy roll of 50 or so, you should be able to persuade the Tarrasque to become your friend.

I think that would help you in your negotiations with the local baron.

"Release our friends from your dungeons!"

"Or what, pathetic adventurer?"

"Or my friend Mr. T here might get angry."

Mr. T growls as softly as he can manage, which still cracks plaster.

[Ravens_cry]

I favour the Rods from God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment) approach, dropping conveniently shrunk Really, Really Big Things™ from Way Up High™

[Deaxsa]

The Tarrasque does have an INT of 3. And if you can speak to it for 10 rounds or so (wall of force? flight?) and make a Diplomacy roll of 50 or so, you should be able to persuade the Tarrasque to become your friend.

I think that would help you in your negotiations with the local baron.

"Release our friends from your dungeons!"

"Or what, pathetic adventurer?"

"Or my friend Mr. T here might get angry."

Mr. T growls as softly as he can manage, which still cracks plaster.

the tarrasque speaks no language. it is, however, a magical beast, so a druid could wild empathy it a a -4 penalty (oooooo! -4! run in fear from the -4!):smalltongue:

[Phelix-Mu]

the tarrasque speaks no language.

But both telepathy and the much less easy to acquire Tongue of the Sun and Moon class feature will get around the tarrasque's lack of language.

[TuggyNE]

I favour the Rods from God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment) approach, dropping conveniently shrunk Really, Really Big Things™ from Way Up High™

I worked up a build for that, using a dragon (for some reason), but no one seemed to care. :smallfrown:

[Jack_Simth]

Technically Hostile Empathic Transfer can take Big T out in the traditional lethal damage way because it has a clause that specifically bypasses regeneration, and the whole wish to take him out thing is part of that listing. I've been trying to make a viable build off it, but you have to actually have a reasonable number of levels do it. I was hoping for Telepath 5, but I can't think of a way to get immunity to critical hits or enough legitimate HP to tank him properly. I guess maybe hiring an NPC buffer, but that's kinda cheating.
You could go Incorporeal. The 3.0 Savage Species has it at +2 LA, or you can get it for +4 LA via Unbodied.

[ddude987]

the tarrasque speaks no language. it is, however, a magical beast, so a druid could wild empathy it a a -4 penalty (oooooo! -4! run in fear from the -4!):smalltongue:

I thought anything with at least int 3 speaks common

[TuggyNE]

I thought anything with at least int 3 speaks common

Well, understands it, but yes.
A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).

[Phelix-Mu]

But both telepathy and the much less easy to acquire Tongue of the Sun and Moon class feature will get around the tarrasque's lack of language.

So it understands Common anyway? Bizarro.

[TuggyNE]

So it understands Common anyway? Bizarro.

Sure. The entry just says it can't speak. (PF's mentions that it understands, but cannot speak, Aklo.)

[malmblad]

I honestly don't think so. Ability damage and Ability drain are two separate effects (with Drain usually being the nastier). Big T has immunity to Ability Damage and Energy drain (actually a separate thing from ability drain - Energy Drain is a supernatural ability of vampires, wights, and other things like that), but not ability drain.

The section on Divine ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#energyDrainAbilityDrainAb ilityDamage) specifically calls out deities as being immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain. So at least at that point, the developers understood that all three of those things are separate abilities. If they'd wanted the Tarrasque to have immunity to ability drain, they would have added it (either in the initial publication, or in the errata).

Regardless, the Tarrasque has Epic Damage reduction which confers Epic Strike which is a supernatural ability. Meaning, it can most definitely hit and damage the incorporeal Allip. Even with a 50% miss rate incorporeal conveys, the Tarrasque's average attacks and damage will kill the Allip in about 2 rounds. The Allip dealing average ability drain would require 10 rounds to put the Tarrasque down. So anyway you look at it Allips aren't a viable solution for killing a Tarrasque.

[Emperor Tippy]

Regardless, the Tarrasque has Epic Damage reduction which confers Epic Strike which is a supernatural ability. Meaning, it can most definitely hit and damage the incorporeal Allip. Even with a 50% miss rate incorporeal conveys, the Tarrasque's average attacks and damage will kill the Allip in about 2 rounds. The Allip dealing average ability drain would require 10 rounds to put the Tarrasque down. So anyway you look at it Allips aren't a viable solution for killing a Tarrasque.

Except the Allip can attack from underground and is thus totally immune to Big T.

[eggynack]

Regardless, the Tarrasque has Epic Damage reduction which confers Epic Strike which is a supernatural ability. Meaning, it can most definitely hit and damage the incorporeal Allip. Even with a 50% miss rate incorporeal conveys, the Tarrasque's average attacks and damage will kill the Allip in about 2 rounds. The Allip dealing average ability drain would require 10 rounds to put the Tarrasque down. So anyway you look at it Allips aren't a viable solution for killing a Tarrasque.
The tarrasque has absolutely no abilities that would let him touch an allip. His natural weapons are treated as epic, but only for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. Allips don't stop the tarrasque's attacks through damage reduction, so they're absolutely fine. The tarrasque doesn't actually have a magic weapon. He only has a magic weapon for one, specific, irrelevant, purpose. Allips kill the tarrasque, and there's nothing he can do about it short of running away. I don't think that the tarrasque is even capable of running away, so he falls apart. It's a win either way.

[malmblad]

The tarrasque has absolutely no abilities that would let him touch an allip. His natural weapons are treated as epic, but only for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. Allips don't stop the tarrasque's attacks through damage reduction, so they're absolutely fine. The tarrasque doesn't actually have a magic weapon. He only has a magic weapon for one, specific, irrelevant, purpose. Allips kill the tarrasque, and there's nothing he can do about it short of running away. I don't think that the tarrasque is even capable of running away, so he falls apart. It's a win either way.

You're right the Tarrasque doesn't have a magic weapon. A Tarrasque has a supernatural ability Epic Strike. It gets Epic Strike because it has Epic Damage Reduction. It's not explicitly written in the Tarrasque's description that it has Epic Strike (though it does provide a truncated description of the ability). The Tarrasque does explicitly have Epic Damage Reduction and therefore Epic Strike. The text of the ability, epic strike for the most part, is irrelevant to the Allip like you pointed out. But the fact that a Tarrasque's attacks are supernatural because of Epic Strike is quite pertinent and applicable.

Incorporeal creatures can be hit by supernatural abilities.

Tarrasque's attacks are considered supernatural.

Tarrasque eats Allip 99 times out of 100 most likely being drained for 3 wisdom in the encounter. A group of 4+ Allips would have the chutzpah to take a Tarrasque most everytime. But a single Allip is minced.


Except the Allip can attack from underground and is thus totally immune to Big T.

As a DM, I wouldn't be above the Tarrasque attacking the ground to get a piece of the Allip, but that does level the playing field.

[eggynack]

You're right the Tarrasque doesn't have a magic weapon. A Tarrasque has a supernatural ability Epic Strike. It gets Epic Strike because it has Epic Damage Reduction. It's not explicitly written in the Tarrasque's description that it has Epic Strike (though it does provide a truncated description of the ability). The Tarrasque does explicitly have Epic Damage Reduction and therefore Epic Strike. The text of the ability, epic strike for the most part, is irrelevant to the Allip like you pointed out. But the fact that a Tarrasque's attacks are supernatural because of Epic Strike is quite pertinent and applicable.

Incorporeal creatures can be hit by supernatural abilities.

Tarrasque's attacks are considered supernatural.

Tarrasque eats Allip 99 times out of 100 most likely being drained for 3 wisdom in the encounter. A group of 4+ Allips would have the chutzpah to take a Tarrasque most everytime. But a single Allip is minced.
You're going to have to show me some actual rules support on this one, because I'm pretty sure that you're wrong. Epic damage reduction doesn't give some kind of epic strike ability. It just lets you bypass epic damage reduction. I don't even know what epic strike is.

[malmblad]

You're going to have to show me some actual rules support on this one, because I'm pretty sure that you're wrong. Epic damage reduction doesn't give some kind of epic strike ability. It just lets you bypass epic damage reduction. I don't even know what epic strike is.

Rules Compendium page 41 for Damage Reduction Epic:

... If a creature has this kind of damage reduction, such as DR
5/epic, it also has the epic strike ability (see page 100).

page 100 Epic Strike:

Natural weapon attacks made by a creature that has this
supernatural special attack are treated as having a +6 magical
enhancement bonus for the purpose of overcoming
damage reduction.

I'm sure the rules are listed somewhere in the Epic Handbook too, but I don't have that one.

[Emperor Tippy]

You're going to have to show me some actual rules support on this one, because I'm pretty sure that you're wrong. Epic damage reduction doesn't give some kind of epic strike ability. It just lets you bypass epic damage reduction. I don't even know what epic strike is.

He's right.

Dr/Epic gives Epic Strike which is an SU and SU abilities can strike Incorporeal creatures per the Incorporeal special ability.

[eggynack]

Rules Compendium page 41 for Damage Reduction Epic:

... If a creature has this kind of damage reduction, such as DR
5/epic, it also has the epic strike ability (see page 100).

page 100 Epic Strike:

Natural weapon attacks made by a creature that has this
supernatural special attack are treated as having a +6 magical
enhancement bonus for the purpose of overcoming
damage reduction.

I'm sure the rules are listed somewhere in the Epic Handbook too, but I don't have that one.
That's definitely interesting. I don't think I've seen that one before. It doesn't really seem to make much sense. There are only two arguments for the tarrasque making the hit. The first, is that he has a magical weapon. He does not, and that's been established for these purposes. The second, and the one you're claiming, is that the tarrasque is hitting with a supernatural ability. I don't think that he is. It states that epic strike is a "supernatural special attack" which is distinct from a supernatural ability. It doesn't even fall under the same formatting as that type of ability. The only grounds that the tarrasque can hit the allip under, are the ones that say, "magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons," and the tarrasque does not do that. Thus, the tarrasque fails to hit the allip. Further, as tippy pointed out, the allip can always incorporeally hang out underground. There's not much he can do about that.

[Phelix-Mu]

That's definitely interesting. I don't think I've seen that one before. It doesn't really seem to make much sense. There are only two arguments for the tarrasque making the hit. The first, is that he has a magical weapon. He does not, and that's been established for these purposes. The second, and the one you're claiming, is that the tarrasque is hitting with a supernatural ability. I don't think that he is. It states that epic strike is a "supernatural special attack" which is distinct from a supernatural ability. It doesn't even fall under the same formatting as that type of ability. The only grounds that the tarrasque can hit the allip under, are the ones that say, "magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons," and the tarrasque does not do that. Thus, the tarrasque fails to hit the allip. Further, as tippy pointed out, the allip can always incorporeally hang out underground. There's not much he can do about that.

I always thought it was silly that the thing can't burrow.

Anyway, DR/epic and Epic Strike work in a similar manner to DR/magic and Magic Strike, as far as I know. I'm not sure that these abilities were explicitly paired together before Rules Compendium, but I might just be misremembering. It makes sense, and avoids stupidity about dragons not being able to bypass the most common form of DR out there (and the kind possessed by all dragons).

It's an interesting issue, for sure.

[eggynack]

I always thought it was silly that the thing can't burrow.

Anyway, DR/epic and Epic Strike work in a similar manner to DR/magic and Magic Strike, as far as I know. I'm not sure that these abilities were explicitly paired together before Rules Compendium, but I might just be misremembering. It makes sense, and avoids stupidity about dragons not being able to bypass the most common form of DR out there (and the kind possessed by all dragons).

It's an interesting issue, for sure.
Yeah, this is a weird one. I think the issue is that "supernatural special attack" isn't really much of a thing. Even if it is one, it's certainly neither a magic weapon, nor a supernatural ability. Supernatural abilities operate like spells. If the claim that the ability to bypass epic damage reduction operates like a supernatural ability is true, then the tarrasque can't bypass epic damage reduction in an anti-magic field. That's kinda weird. Anyway, I don't think that any definition of what the tarrasque does matches the definition of anything that bypasses incorporeality. I reiterate though, seriously weird.

Edit: Specifically, when I say it would work like a spell, I mean that epic strike would effectively have a caster level. I don't even think that makes any sense.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, "supernatural special attack" would probably be something that would be placed on the special attack line of the statblock, and have the Su tag. Seems kind of straightforward.

Now, if you are referring to the silliness about some forms of DR going away in antimagic fields, I think that rule is trash. But also RAW. TRAWsh? Anyway, issues with AMF are something else altogether.

Personally, I don't mind "normal" critters being able to hit incorporeals. Trump cards like incorporeal give rise to all manner of hyperbolic silliness as is, and I don't mind nerfing them down a bit when the rules seem to suggest an obvious way.

By the way, if I were an evil trickster god, I'd just follow around some BBEG critter like the Tarrasque that everyone is always scheming ways to destroy easily. I'd do stuff like implant an item of constant effect scintillating scales or the like in it, maybe give it lessons on how to Leap Attack before the enemies show up. Earthbind effect in a radius around it. Yeah, gotta find an outlet for my evil DM side.:smalltongue:

[eggynack]

Well, "supernatural special attack" would probably be something that would be placed on the special attack line of the statblock, and have the Su tag. Seems kind of straightforward.

Now, if you are referring to the silliness about some forms of DR going away in antimagic fields, I think that rule is trash. But also RAW. TRAWsh? Anyway, issues with AMF are something else altogether.

Personally, I don't mind "normal" critters being able to hit incorporeals. Trump cards like incorporeal give rise to all manner of hyperbolic silliness as is, and I don't mind nerfing them down a bit when the rules seem to suggest an obvious way.

By the way, if I were an evil trickster god, I'd just follow around some BBEG critter like the Tarrasque that everyone is always scheming ways to destroy easily. I'd do stuff like implant an item of constant effect scintillating scales or the like in it, maybe give it lessons on how to Leap Attack before the enemies show up. Earthbind effect in a radius around it. Yeah, gotta find an outlet for my evil DM side.:smalltongue:
It's pretty crazy that allips kill tarrasques in such a straightforward way, but I'm pretty sure they do. My big tarrasque plan has always been to ally him with an artificer. Like, a 20th level artificer comes upon a tarrasque, and the tarrasque tries to kill him. The tarrasque fails, constantly, horribly, painfully. However, the artificer doesn't kill him. Instead, the artificer imbues him with intelligence somehow, and offers a team up. The artificer rides around on the tarrasques back, on a saddle that practically acts as his home. More importantly, he develops nifty magic items that shore up the tarrasque's glaring weaknesses.

I got the idea after seeing that picture of the tarrasque flying around on balloons, and wishing it were real. Thus, he has those, and basically anything else that a tarrasque should have. I've never made up a real list or anything. It's mostly just colorful balloons attached to the back of a tarrasque, and then the tarrasque starts to fly.

[Phelix-Mu]

My big tarrasque plan has always been to ally him with an artificer. Like, a 20th level artificer comes upon a tarrasque, and the tarrasque tries to kill him. The tarrasque fails, constantly, horribly, painfully. However, the artificer doesn't kill him. Instead, the artificer imbues him with intelligence somehow, and offers a team up. The artificer rides around on the tarrasques back, on a saddle that practically acts as his home. More importantly, he develops nifty magic items that shore up the tarrasque's glaring weaknesses.

I got the idea after seeing that picture of the tarrasque flying around on balloons, and wishing it were real. Thus, he has those, and basically anything else that a tarrasque should have. I've never made up a real list or anything. It's mostly just colorful balloons attached to the back of a tarrasque, and then the tarrasque starts to fly.

That's much cooler than the standard "It's big and scary so the mission is SLAY IT." Smacks of how IRL humans have dealt with problems in the past, usually to the detriment of all.

My personal favorite implementation was the Tarrasque having been used as a prison for the consciousness of an epic-level, undying sorcerer from race of quasi-immortals. He was being punished for violating Law X, Y, or Z of some kind, so they stuck him in this horrendous body, and stripped him of his spellcasting (I think by nerfing his Cha even further than the standard Tarrasque). Anyway, it enters the campaign having awoken and been granted back it's spellcasting by this lich on a mission to acquire demigod status. The lich sets the party against the Tarrasque/Sorcerer, helping the party work on a recipe to destroy it, with the caveat that, the party must kill it for plot-related reason, but if they do, they allow the lich to acquire the Tarrasque's regeneration (which the evil genius DM had upgraded to matter incorporation...basically, the Tarrasque would always rebuild itself from surrounding matter, even if reduced to atoms). Basically, save the world and kill the Tarrasque, but then you screw the world by unleashing super unkillable epic lich.

Great plotline. Especially since my character had a psychotic aversion to helping this lich woman. Good times.

[Rater202]

My plan was to get an Efreet, noble Djinn, ring of wishes or other method of gaining three wishes. use one wish to reduce it to negative ten, and the second to kill it. the third wish of course was to gain the slain beasts power for my self (I used to be a really bad munchkin, I am not proud of that.)


I actually, in my spare time, think up things I would do if I had the power to go to fictional realities. all of these lists involve killing the Tarrasque and taking it's power.

[malmblad]

We could (read as: I could) lawyer this all day. I think ultimately supernatural attacks are vague enough that there is room for interpretation RAW. Trust me, I'm working hard to not keep making my case. Internet indignation is a vice of mine.

Anyway, RAI Big T is an unstoppable killing machine and it being able to hit and damage everything short of outsiders makes the most sense.

[eggynack]

That's much cooler than the standard "It's big and scary so the mission is SLAY IT." Smacks of how IRL humans have dealt with problems in the past, usually to the detriment of all.

My personal favorite implementation was the Tarrasque having been used as a prison for the consciousness of an epic-level, undying sorcerer from race of quasi-immortals. He was being punished for violating Law X, Y, or Z of some kind, so they stuck him in this horrendous body, and stripped him of his spellcasting (I think by nerfing his Cha even further than the standard Tarrasque). Anyway, it enters the campaign having awoken and been granted back it's spellcasting by this lich on a mission to acquire demigod status. The lich sets the party against the Tarrasque/Sorcerer, helping the party work on a recipe to destroy it, with the caveat that, the party must kill it for plot-related reason, but if they do, they allow the lich to acquire the Tarrasque's regeneration (which the evil genius DM had upgraded to matter incorporation...basically, the Tarrasque would always rebuild itself from surrounding matter, even if reduced to atoms). Basically, save the world and kill the Tarrasque, but then you screw the world by unleashing super unkillable epic lich.

Great plotline. Especially since my character had a psychotic aversion to helping this lich woman. Good times.
I always think there's something special about taking what something is, and turning it into what it should have been. Tarrasques are these legendary beings that destroy all in their wake. You shouldn't be able to escape them with a 3rd level spell, and practically kill them with a 4th level spell. Thus, things like this are neat.

We could (read as: I could) lawyer this all day. I think ultimately supernatural attacks are vague enough that there is room for interpretation RAW. Trust me, I'm working hard to not keep making my case. Internet indignation is a vice of mine.

Anyway, RAI Big T is an unstoppable killing machine and it being able to hit and damage everything short of outsiders makes the most sense.
That's not so much rules as interpreted, so much as rules as they should have been. I think there's a shortening of that one, but I don't remember what it is. Anyway, I just don't see much justification for this one. Making the tarrasque's punching into a supernatural ability is just weird, and it might cause more problems than it solves. The tarrasque's ability to punch through epic damage reduction shouldn't be a thing separate from its actual punches. A creature is epic, so it bypasses epic damage reduction. The way you're putting it, the creature is epic, so when it punches, an ability activates that bypasses the damage reduction. I don't think that's what happens, and I don't even think that's what should happen. Granted, an allip shouldn't be able to kill a tarrasque, but that's what happens. The allip just so happens to be perfectly contoured to all of the tarrasque's weaknesses. I mean, they can definitely do it, because of hiding underground, but I think they can also do it without hiding underground.

[jindra34]

the tarrasque speaks no language. it is, however, a magical beast, so a druid could wild empathy it a a -4 penalty (oooooo! -4! run in fear from the -4!):smalltongue:

Better idea for that: Use the Totemist. They can pump Wild Empathy better, and counter the whole -4 thing. I've had an unwary DM panic when he realized my Totemist, in a single action, had made the Tarrasque into my pet. FOREVER.

[TuggyNE]

Anyway, DR/epic and Epic Strike work in a similar manner to DR/magic and Magic Strike, as far as I know. I'm not sure that these abilities were explicitly paired together before Rules Compendium, but I might just be misremembering. It makes sense, and avoids stupidity about dragons not being able to bypass the most common form of DR out there (and the kind possessed by all dragons).

Yes, it's core, although there's no specific "Magic Strike".
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Note, of course, that those natural weapons aren't treated as magic weapons for any other purpose; they do not gain hardness or HP, you can't apply weapon specials to them, and most importantly, they don't have any enhancement bonus to attack or damage. Presumably therefore they aren't treated as magic weapons for incorporeality purposes either.

Edit:
That's not so much rules as interpreted, so much as rules as they should have been. I think there's a shortening of that one, but I don't remember what it is.

RACSD? That's the closest to "let's fix what the writers said into what they should have meant".

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm, could of sworn there was a Magic Strike ability....

From the DR section in the back of MM5, p209:


Magic: When magic can overcome a creature’s damage
reduction, a weapon with a +1 or higher magical enhancement
bonus is required. If a creature has DR X/magic, it
also has the magic strike ability (see page 214). This type
of DR is supernatural.

and the reference:

Magic Strike (Su): Natural weapon attacks made by a
creature that has this ability are treated as magic for the
purpose of overcoming damage reduction. When it applies,
“magic strike” appears in the Atk Options line of a creature’s
statistics block.

I guess it's not strictly core. I don't have Rules Compendium on hand, or I'd check there too. Epic Strike being in RC leads one to think Magic Strike would be there too.

By the way, if we follow this to it's logical conclusion, then ki strike (magic) seems to allow monks to hit incorporeal targets. Chalk one up to unintended coolness, I suppose.

[eggynack]

Yes, it's core, although there's no specific "Magic Strike".

Note, of course, that those natural weapons aren't treated as magic weapons for any other purpose; they do not gain hardness or HP, you can't apply weapon specials to them, and most importantly, they don't have any enhancement bonus to attack or damage. Presumably therefore they aren't treated as magic weapons for incorporeality purposes either.

Actually, I think their argument is different from that. They're not trying to treat this as a magic weapon to bypass incorporeality; they're trying to treat it as a supernatural ability. This is because "epic strike" is defined as a "supernatural special attack" which is a rather ill defined term. I argued that the term has no real connection to supernatural abilities, while simultaneously arguing what you're arguing currently, to combat the other end of it.



RACSD? That's the closest to "let's fix what the writers said into what they should have meant".
Yep, that's the one. I remembered approximately what the letters were, but I had no idea how to get from the jumbled letters to a cogent meaning.