Vow of Poverty Chaos Shuffling with Thought Bottle abuse

[Hellwyrm]

After thinking a bit about Chaos Shuffling Vow of Poverty and Thought Bottles, I think I've thought of a way to retroactively get Vow of Poverty. Tell me if this works.

So your a 20th level adventurer or whatever. You decide you need a whole bunch more feats. You purchase a bunch of scrolls of Embrance and Shun the Dark Chaos (or hire a cleric/wizard to cast them), and a thought bottle. You store your experience in a Thought Bottle, then use Fell Drain Sonic Snap or Wights or whatever to delevel yourself to level one, choosing to fail all your saves against negative levels. You are now level one.
You get a friendly cleric/wizard to Chaos Shuffle your level one feat into Vow of Poverty. You then use the thought bottle to restore all your experience, leveling back up to 20, or whatever level you were previously, gaining all the bonus feats from Vow of Poverty.
EDIT: In order to not violate Vow of Poverty, instead you will leave instructions with your Mindraped minion (prior to actually swearing the VoP) to use Dominate Person on you till you fail, then force you to use the previously prepared Thought Bottle to restore your levels and experience to there previous totals. The minion will then carry out these instructions once you have taken VoP, and your level will be restored to 20, gaining all the bonus feats from Vow of Poverty, because you are leveling up AFTER gaining VoP. Nice catch Tokiko Mima.
You then Chaos Shuffle Vow of Poverty and all its attendant bonus feats into feats of your choice as per normal Chaos Shuffling.
Voila, you have all the bonus feats as if you had Vow of Poverty from level 1 to level 20, but without all the hard yakka involved in actually playing a character with Vow Poverty for that length of time.

If your paranoid about letting a high level character near you while you are level 1, just mind rape them before deleveling and conduct the whole process in your private demiplane/rope trick or even both. Make sure you 'donate' all your gear to them before taking Vow of Poverty so you don't have any problematic valuable gear to deal with. Then just take it back when the process is complete.
Hopefully everything in this chain of events works out :smallsmile:. If the reason that I haven't seen this before on the forums is because there is something wrong with this process please let me know.

[DeusMortuusEst]

I think that this depends on how you think that the thought bottle restores your XP. I know that some believes that it restores your character exactly as it was, while others see the XP restore as just general XP ready to be used for anything.

If you think that the first line of thought is correct, this doesn't work, since the thought bottle would override your new feat with the old one, while the secondary interpretation would allow it to work.

Note that I'm in no way an expert on thought bottles, DC shuffling and general powergaming, I'm just repeating what I've heard.

[Hellwyrm]

I think that this depends on how you think that the thought bottle restores your XP. I know that some believes that it restores your character exactly as it was, while others see the XP restore as just general XP ready to be used for anything.

If you think that the first line of thought is correct, this doesn't work, since the thought bottle would override your new feat with the old one, while the secondary interpretation would allow it to work.

Note that I'm in no way an expert on thought bottles, DC shuffling and general powergaming, I'm just repeating what I've heard.

Hmm you've got a good point. I cracked open my copy of Complete Arcane to find the relevant passage.


Experience: A Thought Bottle can be used to offset level loss as a Restoration spell can... When a user's experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently access the bottle to restore his XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored, negating any levels lost in the interim.

Just thought I'd grab any part of Restoration that was relevant to this discussion and put it here as well.


This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained... A character who has a level restored by restoration has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him or her to his or her previous level.

It is my belief that even if using a Thought Bottle restores the exact levels you drained away in the exact level you took them as you leveled up normally, because you're restoring your XP total to what it previously was, you are leveling up all those times. While this may lock in your previous feat choices, I personally think that you gain the bonus feats from Vow of Poverty, because you are gaining the levels via Thought Bottle, after you have taken the vow.

I will also admit I am no RAW expert so if this interpretation is wrong, come one come all to explain my misunderstanding.

[TypoNinja]

Like all VoP cheese you have completely forgotten the RP elements. Vow of Poverty is your Deity empowering you in exchange for swearing an Oath.

Cheesing it risks upsetting said Deity.

In this case if your Deity is Lawful he or she will likely step on you the second you cast/have cast upon you Embrace the Dark Chaos, as the most obvious example.

All VoP cheese immediately runs into "Ask your DM" territory, because Exalted feats all require DM permission, and the Vow's are actually that, Vow's sworn to a higher power, who gets to decide if you are living up to the Exalted standards you swore to uphold.

[Raineh Daze]

Like all VoP cheese you have completely forgotten the RP elements. Vow of Poverty is your Deity empowering you in exchange for swearing an Oath.

Cheesing it risks upsetting said Deity.

In this case if your Deity is Lawful he or she will likely step on you the second you cast/have cast upon you Embrace the Dark Chaos, as the most obvious example.

All VoP cheese immediately runs into "Ask your DM" territory, because Exalted feats all require DM permission, and the Vow's are actually that, Vow's sworn to a higher power, who gets to decide if you are living up to the Exalted standards you swore to uphold.

Where does some arbitrary deity come into it? :smallconfused:

[TuggyNE]

Like all VoP cheese you have completely forgotten the RP elements. Vow of Poverty is your Deity empowering you in exchange for swearing an Oath.

Cheesing it risks upsetting said Deity.

Dude, this is TO. Of course it risks upsetting deities! That's how you know it's working. :smalltongue:

[TypoNinja]

Where does some arbitrary deity come into it? :smallconfused:

Seriously?

The opening text of the Exalted Feats section.


This book introduces a new type of feat: the exalted feat. Only
intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral
standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful
agents of good—deities, celestials, or similar creatures.

Who did you think you were swearing the Vow to? Your God, The Paragons, (Domiel, Phistis Sophia, ect), or some other similar higher power that can actually Empower you in return for your oath.

Don't forget your prerequisite Sacred Vow also had you swear yourself to their service. You live by their rules.

[Chronos]

Quoth DeusMortuusEst:

If you think that the first line of thought is correct, this doesn't work, since the thought bottle would override your new feat with the old one, while the secondary interpretation would allow it to work.
The second interpretation wouldn't work, either. If the Thought Bottle just gives you back a big pile of XP, then you're up against the limit that you can't go up more than one level at once. You'd end up at level 2, one point short of 3.

Besides which, nobody has yet mentioned that as soon as you took Vow of Poverty, you'd have to immediately give up the Thought Bottle.

[TypoNinja]

Besides which, nobody has yet mentioned that as soon as you took Vow of Poverty, you'd have to immediately give up the Thought Bottle.

Specific vs general would take care of the interpretation on how the Thought Bottle works.

The General Rule is that XP gain is limited to 1 short of 2 levels, the Specifics of the thought bottle text would override that.

Actually being able to use it, ahh you got me on that one.

[Tokiko Mima]

You'd also have to take care of your relationship to your mind-raped minion. Assuming the process worked, your new VoP exalted self will very likely be aghast at the horrible way you've butchered their psyche, and be compelled to fix the situation. You have to make sure that any evil actions you take are impossible to reverse, because you'll really really want to do that the moment you Heel Turn Face (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn).

Extensive instructions will have to be given to the minion so you yourself do not interfere with the process of powering up. I submit to you that it might be a good idea to transfer your original psyche into the minion via mindrape, and give the minion complete control over your former body via some form of permanent domination. Then turn on the exalted abilities and personality, and now you have a good version of yourself with lots of awesome feats that you can use as a tool. Take care you don't force yourself to do anything that would result in losing your new powers.

[Telonius]

Even if you're cleared for taking the Vow of Poverty feat, you can't get the attendant bonus feats through Chaos Shuffle. From page 30 of BoED:

"Unlike the other benefits of a vow of poverty, a character does not gain these bonus feats retroactively when he takes the Vow of Poverty feat; he only gains those bonus feats that apply for the levels he gains after swearing his vow."

Using a Thought Bottle after you're down to level 1 would then violate the Vow of Poverty feat.

[cerin616]

Some thoughts. What if your friend owned a thought bottle and he said it might be a good idea to store your levels in it as a contingency. you agree. you store your levels in it. you then get drained of all your levels and take vow of poverty.

Is there a way to activate the bottle and return your experience, without actually using the item yourself? this would fall under "someone uses a magic item on your behalf"

or better yet. be a cleric. craft a wand of restoration (restores levels lost due to spell drains etc) give it to party member. get chaosed. take vow, have them blast you with the wand a bunch of times.

That also falls under "friend uses magic item on your behalf"

[ZamielVanWeber]

Correct me if I am wrong, but does't Chaos Shuffle not permit you to ignore prepress? Rather, you still need to be able to fill the one of the new feat. So you would need sacred vow.

[Telonius]

Is there a way to activate the bottle and return your experience, without actually using the item yourself? this would fall under "someone uses a magic item on your behalf"



Also doesn't work; per Thought Bottle's description, "Only the creature that stored experience can retrieve it." Meaning they actually have to use the magic item in order to get it back. As soon as they use the magic item, they've violated their Vow of Poverty, which means the benefits (including the feats) go away.

[cerin616]

thats why i asked if there was a way.

[Tokiko Mima]

Also doesn't work; per Thought Bottle's description, "Only the creature that stored experience can retrieve it." Meaning they actually have to use the magic item in order to get it back. As soon as they use the magic item, they've violated their Vow of Poverty, which means the benefits (including the feats) go away.

You could have your assisting minion dominate you into doing it, as long as they were acting under instructions you gave before you swore the VoP. It's not like the Thought Bottle cares about volition as long as you've said the correct command words and made the right mental recitation. And VoP explicitly allows you to drink potions and receive spells cast by others, so you would simply be getting the effect of a special memory restoring spell akin to Restoration.

[Telonius]

You could have your assisting minion dominate you into doing it, as long as they were acting under instructions you gave before you swore the VoP. It's not like the Thought Bottle cares about volition as long as you've said the correct command words and made the right mental recitation. And VoP explicitly allows you to drink potions and receive spells cast by others, so you would simply be getting the effect of a special memory restoring spell akin to Restoration.
:elan:
Except it's not a potion, it's a Wondrous Item. It's not a matter of consuming something, it's a matter of using a full-round action to activate it.

Minion compulsion might not work either; unlike all of the other Vow feats, Vow of Poverty doesn't have the "compulsion clause." So if you break the vow, even if magically compelled to do so, you lose it.


:nale:
On the other hand, speaking of breaking things, there is wording in the thought bottle description that is pretty loose.

"...but if the bottle is destroyed or lost, the user suffers no ill effects."

That might just work. I would consider "being stuck at level 1" to be an ill effect. So you're at level 1, you see the Thought Bottle - remnants of a former life, foul temptation! - and you decide to destroy it. The XP flows back to you, setting your XP total at your starting point, and gaining 19 levels' worth of Vow feats.

[cerin616]

:elan:

"...but if the bottle is destroyed or lost, the user suffers no ill effects."

That might just work. I would consider "being stuck at level 1" to be an ill effect.

Oh man... i love finagling the wording of things

[Tokiko Mima]

:elan:
Except it's not a potion, it's a Wondrous Item. It's not a matter of consuming something, it's a matter of using a full-round action to activate it.

Minion compulsion might not work either; unlike all of the other Vow feats, Vow of Poverty doesn't have the "compulsion clause." So if you break the vow, even if magically compelled to do so, you lose it.
...

Yes, but in effect *you* are not using anything, the person dominating you is using your body and will as a tool to their end. You're being puppeted, in the same sense that someone forcibly pushing your hand onto a hand scanner isn't "you using the hand scanner," someone pickpocketing you is not "you giving them access to your wallet," and someone slipping a mickey into your drink is not "you inviting them to have their way with your person or possessions." You cannot break a promise or vow when you are incapable of any action whatsoever to prevent or enforce your duties. You promised to do everything in your power to honor your oath. But somethings are beyond your power to foresee or prevent, and contracts have to take that into account.

Otherwise it would be trivial for anyone to break a VoP. Just put a dab of lotion on your hands, and touch attack them. Now they are using lotion, a clear violation of their oath.

Heck, by the exact wording of the feat even crazier things are possible. With the vow sworn you are only allowed to carry food (enough for one day) with you. You are still prevented from owning or using any "material possession," and that would include food you are carrying. So you can't actually eat that food because that would be 'using' it. I hope you don't get too thirsty on your way up 5th level, because you can't 'use' any objects aren't on the list of simple weapons, spell components, or potions owned by others. You'd therefore probably want to stick to sources of nutrition that can't be classed as material possessions. Or you could live off of live crickets, shavings of licorice, crushed limes and sprinklings of water too, I suppose.

I think this particular feat needs to be interpreted more in the spirit it was intended, instead of the letter on the feat. Are you forgoing material rewards in a mission for enlightenment or higher principles? Is your actions consistent with that goal? The problem with the scenario described by the OP as far as the ideals of VoP is that a character looking at using Thought Bottles and Dark Chaos Shuffle to effect greater power for themselves is utterly in the wrong mindset to ever acquire VoP and exalted status in the first place. But you can't easily write rules without loopholes, I suppose, and trying to exploit the RAW is what makes theoretical optimization fun.

[Pilo]

It is minor but Fell drain does not let you keep your negative levels they disapear after CL hours.

[Hellwyrm]

It is minor but Fell drain does not let you keep your negative levels they disapear after CL hours.
Good point. The more you know!

Yes, but in effect *you* are not using anything, the person dominating you is using your body and will as a tool to their end. You're being puppeted, in the same sense that someone forcibly pushing your hand onto a hand scanner isn't "you using the hand scanner," someone pickpocketing you is not "you giving them access to your wallet," and someone slipping a mickey into your drink is not "you inviting them to have their way with your person or possessions." You cannot break a promise or vow when you are incapable of any action whatsoever to prevent or enforce your duties. You promised to do everything in your power to honor your oath. But somethings are beyond your power to foresee or prevent, and contracts have to take that into account.
Well that solves any issue with being able to use the thought bottle without you breaking your vow.

I think this particular feat needs to be interpreted more in the spirit it was intended, instead of the letter on the feat. Are you forgoing material rewards in a mission for enlightenment or higher principles? Is your actions consistent with that goal? The problem with the scenario described by the OP as far as the ideals of VoP is that a character looking at using Thought Bottles and Dark Chaos Shuffle to effect greater power for themselves is utterly in the wrong mindset to ever acquire VoP and exalted status in the first place. But you can't easily write rules without loopholes, I suppose, and trying to exploit the RAW is what makes theoretical optimization fun.
This is TO, and definitely destroys the whole mindset and purpose of taking Vow of Poverty in the first place, but hey, your not breaking any explicit rule right :smalltongue:?

Even if you're cleared for taking the Vow of Poverty feat, you can't get the attendant bonus feats through Chaos Shuffle. From page 30 of BoED:

"Unlike the other benefits of a vow of poverty, a character does not gain these bonus feats retroactively when he takes the Vow of Poverty feat; he only gains those bonus feats that apply for the levels he gains after swearing his vow."
That's normally why Chaos Shuffle doesn't work with VoP, however the whole point was to fall to level one, then gain the bonus feats when restored to level 20 by the thought bottle. Or at least that's how I interpret the whole process. If you have a convincing RAW argument, by all means, do share.

Like all VoP cheese you have completely forgotten the RP elements. Vow of Poverty is your Deity empowering you in exchange for swearing an Oath.

Cheesing it risks upsetting said Deity.

In this case if your Deity is Lawful he or she will likely step on you the second you cast/have cast upon you Embrace the Dark Chaos, as the most obvious example.

All VoP cheese immediately runs into "Ask your DM" territory, because Exalted feats all require DM permission, and the Vow's are actually that, Vow's sworn to a higher power, who gets to decide if you are living up to the Exalted standards you swore to uphold.
As tuggyne has so eloquently described, if your not mixing and matching setting specific feats and equipment, well its just not proper TO :smallbiggrin:!
I could think of some back story about why this convoluted set of actions occurred, but it's so ridiculous and specific there's no point typing it out.

[cerin616]

Is the plan here to keep Vow and its bonuses, or to shuffle its bonus feats into other stuff again.

If its the first, then fell drain might heal on its own and you can do it jhust fine, if its the second, there could be a ruling that once you lose vow of poverty you lose any bonuses it grants you.

In addition, chaos shuffling gives you a tainted feat, which breaks your exalted status, which removes vow of poverty, so you cant really do the second at all.

[Emperor Tippy]

if its the second, there could be a ruling that once you lose vow of poverty you lose any bonuses it grants you.
That's a house rule, RAW you don't loose any of the feats.


In addition, chaos shuffling gives you a tainted feat, which breaks your exalted status, which removes vow of poverty, so you cant really do the second at all.
No, Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos are Chaos aligned spells and not Evil aligned. Using them doesn't violate any Vow or exalted status.

[Talderas]

Well that solves any issue with being able to use the thought bottle without you breaking your vow.

It would not. Vow of Poverty does not contain any compulsion clause like many other action based feats or abilities do. The creature which commits the act is the one that commits the act regardless of if the creature is being mind controlled or not.

Using the Thought Bottle while under the effects of Vow of Poverty will cause you to lose the Vow and any benefits derived from it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why are we messing with a thought bottle at all in this scenario? Psychic reformation lets you change your feats as though you made a different choice when selecting them, as opposed to DCFS changing them as they are now.

For 1000xp and some gold you get a psion to let you swap your first two feats as though you had taken sacred vow and VoP at those levels, gaining you the bonus exalted feats as though you had played through all your career with them. Then DCFS to swap it all out.

The whole RP aspect -should- still put the kibosh on this nonsense but this completely sidesteps the magic item use issue inherent to the thought bottle method.