Summon Monster/Nature's Ally

[thompur]

I have very little experience with the summoning spells, and I was curious as to what the playground thinks about them. Specifically, starting with SNA/SM 2, when you can choose the option to summon multiple weaker creatures. Which, in your experience, is, in general, the optimal choice.
Thanks.

[thethird]

It depends, there are a lot of interactions.

You might find good advice by reading a handbook, such as this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11186)

[Zombulian]

As well as this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255219)

[Killer Angel]

Luckily, you don't have to set a definitive choice. Sometimes, it's better to have one big hitter, sometime, you need more minions to maximize their abilities all across a battlefield, or to form meat walls, and so on.

[Chronos]

The big variables are how many enemies there are, what kinds of enemies they are, and how big the fight is (i.e., how much resources you're willing to spend on it). Fights with a lot of mooks tend to favor summoning multiple low-level things, while fights with a single big enemy favor summoning high-level things one at a time, for instance. Wolves (or dire wolves) are good against melee creatures, creatures using a bow (not crossbow), or things that depend a lot on mobility, since those are all restricted by being tripped. Grapplers are good against spellcasters-- Crocodiles or giant crocs are a good choice here. Creatures that do Con damage, like vipers or dire weasels, can work against opponents with many hit dice. For clumps of enemies close together, you generally want something with good reach, while enemies that are scattered apart are more vulnerable to things with Pounce. A thoqqua is good against something with a large number of natural weapons, since it'll burn the opponent every time it gets hit. Some monsters have decent resistances or immunity against some attack forms, which is good if your opponents like to use those attack forms, or if your party members like to use area-of-effect spells.

[Urpriest]

I'll add that grapplers are also good against smaller creatures with lots of natural attacks, since attacks in a grapple are limited by BAB.

[Jigokuro]

Related question: which line is stronger overall?

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, space, movement, and SLA's play a major role. If you need a ton of healing, summoning numbers of unicorns is a good way to go about it as a druid. You may not have room for a giant crocodile in a 5ft hallway, and you may need a creature that can fly and not have one on the list of the slot you are using.

Also a rod of maximize or empower can make summoning groups of creatures more worth while as you can increase the numbers you summon without changing the spell level.

[Vortenger]

My experience of it is has been that one isn't better than another. SNA has mostly bigger beatsticks and a few nature based SLA summons, SM has lots of SLA's that provide for combat and utility, but much fewer beatstick options. Both series have the drawback that summons attack bonus doesn't scale well at very high levels.

[Chronos]

On the one hand, SNA is usually just straight animals, which are difficult to communicate with if you want something more complicated than "attack the nearest enemy, or the one that's pissed you off the most". SM, by contrast, gives you celestial or fiendish versions of animals, which have an Int of 3 and understand common. On the other hand, most SNA animals, being neutral, are available to casters of any alignment, so you can still get a dire rat or a viper if you're good, or a canine or monkey if you're evil.

SNA summons are often more powerful, or come at an earlier level than SM: For instance, SNA I will give you an eagle, where SM I can only give you a hawk. And you get elementals starting with SNA II, but not until SM III. On the other hand, SM can get you some nice outsiders, too, like the army-destroying yeth hound or the sorcerous coatl, which SNA can't match.

Overall, I'd say that SNA is more powerful, but SM is more versatile.

[Deophaun]

If it was not for Greenbound Summoning, SM would blow SNA out of the water.

[Spuddles]

Related question: which line is stronger overall?

SNA, hands down, has the best hitters and grapplers. With ashbound, greenbound, and rashemi elemental summoning, you've also got amazing battlefield control and blasting. And summons that last a long time, even at level 1.


If it was not for Greenbound Summoning, SM would blow SNA out of the water.

Ehh, SNA has much better melee attackers. Good for grappling or extra DPR. They're legitimate threats and can choke up the battlefield in a way that you almost have to wait until SM7 to do otherwise.

As far as utility goes, they are pretty spectacular.

[Deophaun]

Ehh, SNA has much better melee attackers.
SM gets DR much quicker (when it still matters). A Fiendish Huge Monstrous Centipede is a better grappler than anything from a comparable SNA (and, unlike with skills, base attack, or saves, it does get its feats recalculated). And when you go into splats, they get nasty (e.g. the Voor). Without Greenbound summoning, SMIII is where SNA stops being superior to SM.

[eggynack]

SM gets DR much quicker (when it still matters). A Fiendish Huge Monstrous Centipede is a better grappler than anything from a comparable SNA (and, unlike with skills, base attack, or saves, it does get its feats recalculated). And when you go into splats, they get nasty (e.g. the Voor). Without Greenbound summoning, SMIII is where SNA stops being superior to SM.
Yeah, but that's not the important grappling comparison point. The place where druid summon grappling really heats up is at SNA IV, when they get giant crocodiles. Your huge fiendish monstrous centipede only has a grapple mod of +15, while a giant crocodile has a grapple mod of +21, and improved grab. The improved grab is the real clincher. Druids also get elementals faster than wizards, and those things are often the best summons for their level, especially with rashemi elemental summoning. The real turning point for that is SNA VI, when you get huge elementals. Those things tend to be pretty crazy, and the orglash's cone of cold is just icing on the cake of awesome. The fact that a druid can cast this stuff spontaneously is also fantastic, as it really incentivizes summoning optimization. other relevant non-greenbound factors are animal growth, because that spell is just fantastic, and spontaneous oreads, because earthquake as a 6th level spell is kinda crazy.

[Chronos]

A Fiendish Huge Monstrous Centipede is a better grappler than anything from a comparable SNA
Not true. The 'pede is Summon Monster III, and has a grapple mod of +15. Dire wolves are Summon Nature's Ally III, and also have a grapple mod of +15. Alternately, you could get a lion, which only has a grapple mod of +12 (which is probably still going to be enough), but which also has improved grab and rakes, so it's easier for it to start a grapple, and it does more damage when it does. Plus Pounce, of course, for general-purpose face-eating.

I will grant, though, that the 'pede gets 10' reach at an earlier level than any of the Nature's Allies.

[Spuddles]

SM gets DR much quicker (when it still matters). A Fiendish Huge Monstrous Centipede is a better grappler than anything from a comparable SNA (and, unlike with skills, base attack, or saves, it does get its feats recalculated). And when you go into splats, they get nasty (e.g. the Voor). Without Greenbound summoning, SMIII is where SNA stops being superior to SM.

Unfortunately that centipede provokes when it grapples, and with an abysmal AC, it is gonna get smacked by anything that can retaliate.

Ring of the Beast (with versatile spell caster, if you like) gets your druid much more mileage out of his summons, as now his SNA4 is either summoning 1d3 dire crocs or a storm elemental. Or an 8 HD orglash thanks to rashemi elemental summoning, with an 8d6 cone of cold.

Druid summons are better overall because they have better splat support. Otherwise they get marginally better bruisers. Using SM to grapple kinda sucks because many of the good grapplers provoke.

Of course I just go Arcane Hierophant on my summoners. Why bother choosing :D

[ShriekingDrake]

SM gets DR much quicker (when it still matters). A Fiendish Huge Monstrous Centipede is a better grappler than anything from a comparable SNA (and, unlike with skills, base attack, or saves, it does get its feats recalculated). And when you go into splats, they get nasty (e.g. the Voor). Without Greenbound summoning, SMIII is where SNA stops being superior to SM.

Those guys are great, especially with their reach, but I don't think they outclass everything. Dire wolves are equally effective at grappling and once you get to SNA IV, you get dire crocs, which really ramp up the grappling nicely.

There is no question that SM is more versatile, but for sheer bashing power, you better off with SNA.

edit---ninja'd a bit.

[Deophaun]

Druid summons are better overall because they have better splat support. Otherwise they get marginally better bruisers. Using SM to grapple kinda sucks because many of the good grapplers provoke
Which is why you provoke before initiating the grapple. Then you only have to worry about those with combat reflexes.

And again, the fiendish huge monstrous centipede has three feats unassigned. Why not snatch?

[eggynack]

Which is why you provoke before initiating the grapple. Then you only have to worry about those with combat reflexes.

And again, the fiendish huge monstrous centipede has three feats unassigned. Why not snatch?
You're still costing yourself an action if you fail. Giant crocodiles have the advantage of their grapple attempts being costless. I don't think you can assign feats to your summoned creatures. I don't see why you'd be able to do that. I think they kinda subgroup under vermin, even if they're not listed as such. That seems to be why they don't have any feats. In any case, I presume that if they don't have feats, they're not supposed to have feats.

Edit: Yeah, fiendish is a template that I don't think grants feats. I can't see where the template says that it does.

[Spuddles]

You're still costing yourself an action if you fail. Giant crocodiles have the advantage of their grapple attempts being costless. I don't think you can assign feats to your summoned creatures. I don't see why you'd be able to do that. I think they kinda subgroup under vermin, even if they're not listed as such. That seems to be why they don't have any feats. In any case, I presume that if they don't have feats, they're not supposed to have feats.

Edit: Yeah, fiendish is a template that I don't think grants feats. I can't see where the template says that it does.

Mindless creatures dont get feats; most vermin are mindless; therefore, most vermin lack feats.

Fiendish template raises a creature's int score to at least 3 (probably so it can be properly fiendish), which means a formerly mindless vermin now qualifies for feats from its HD.

[Chronos]

I think the argument is that, the only reason vermin ordinarily don't have feats is that they don't have an Int score. Fiendish vermin, though, do have an Int score, and therefore ought to get a feat every 3 HD, just like anything else.

At best, though, this would leave the DM picking feats for your summons, not you. When you summon a monster, you get a typical creature of that kind, and you'd have to be a pretty epic character (the archtypical Wizard who Did It) to decide what the typical fiendish centipede is.

[eggynack]

Mindless creatures dont get feats; most vermin are mindless; therefore, most vermin lack feats.

Fiendish template raises a creature's int score to at least 3 (probably so it can be properly fiendish), which means a formerly mindless vermin now qualifies for feats from its HD.
I think that the relevant line here is, "Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged." Thus, while they may be magical beasts now, they have the type effects of vermin that aren't listed as being changed in the fiendish template. In this way, the fiendish monstrous centipede maintains its featlessness. Additionally, I don't see where summon monster lets you customize your summons. Fiendish monstrous centipedes don't have feats, because fiendish monstrous centipedes don't have feats. A summoned version is unexceptional, so it would once again maintain its featlessness. Finally, even if it got feats, I don't see why a summoner would get to choose and optimize them.

[Chronos]

I think that the relevant line here is, "Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged."That means that fiendish humanoids remain humanoids, fiendish dragons remain dragons, fiendish plants remain plants, and so on. But you can't say that vermin change type, but otherwise remain the same type.

Now, if the Vermin type specifically said that they never got feats, then you could argue that fiendish vermin still don't, since they're (augmented vermin) and so retain the vermin features. However, the rules actually just say that most vermin are mindless and don't have feats, but if a vermin has an Int score, it still gets them.

[eggynack]

That means that fiendish humanoids remain humanoids, fiendish dragons remain dragons, fiendish plants remain plants, and so on. But you can't say that vermin change type, but otherwise remain the same type.

Now, if the Vermin type specifically said that they never got feats, then you could argue that fiendish vermin still don't, since they're (augmented vermin) and so retain the vermin features. However, the rules actually just say that most vermin are mindless and don't have feats, but if a vermin has an Int score, it still gets them.
You might have half a point on that one. It seems plausible for a monstrous fiendish centipede to theoretically have feats. The fact remains that the one in the book does not have any feats though. I don't think that you can summon a particular centipede that has feats, and you certainly can't choose those feats when you summon it.