General Exalted Thread XIV: Immanent Solar Kickstarter

[The Rose Dragon]

Because I was around and because I could.

http://i.imgur.com/kGu6l.jpg

Art by Melissa Uran (http://meluran.deviantart.com/), colors by kirubanzai (http://kirubanzai.deviantart.com/).

First Welrub Excellency
Cost: 1m per die; Mins: Essence 1; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: None

The Giant of the Playground expresses whimsical humor in all he does. He wanders where he may, creating art as he goes and spreading good cheer. He is never malicious and always optimistic, but he loves argument and debates of all kinds, fostering them wherever he goes.

Characters may apply this Charm to any action that causes laughter or hope. Any action that would deliberately inflict harm, physical or otherwise, upon someone who has shown no hostility to the Infernal is forbidden. This Charm may also always be used to create art, for such are his greatest loves.

Popular Homebrew/Fixes

Kyeudo's warstrider fix. (http://www.mediafire.com/?misbm37gh71hr2e)
Extra Ox body techniques(or equivalent charm) equal to Stamina/Essence
Pete Schaefer on Lunar Character Generation (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Peter_Schaefer_on_Lunar_Character_ Generation)
Extra Excellencies. Generally, Solars/Abyssals get 5, Lunars get two, Sidereals 4, and Dragonblooded are 3, spread amoung caste and favored. Infernals get their caste Yozi's first Excellency free, including all future purchases of it.


List of Previous Threads:
General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172007)
General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183998)
General Exalted Discussion III: Weddings Are An Act of Villainy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192237)
General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196718)
General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199728)
General Exalted Discussion VI: Ascendancy Mantle of the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207218)
General Exalted Discussion VII: Playground Eternal Essence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217776)
General Exalted Discussion VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223918)
General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12700392#post12700392)
General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239521)
General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250101)
General Exalted Discussion Thread XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259060)
General Exalted Discussion Thread XIII: Caul Me Maybe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274919)

Useful Links:
The White Wolf Exalted Forum (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=17)
Exalted Character Repository (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186758)
Scroll of Errata (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/84593/Scroll-of-Errata?filters=0_0_1820_0_0)

Reynard's Sheets:
Infernal, Solar, and Abyssal SheetName:
Exalt Type and Caste:
Anima:

Motivation:

Urge

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [C]aste and [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 28
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots, and Abilities can be raised to 5 without BP)

Archery
Martial Arts
Melee
Thrown
War

Integrity
Performance
Presence
Resistance
Survival

Craft
Investigate
Lore
Medicine
Occult

Athletics
Awareness
Dodge
Larceny
Stealth

Bureaucracy
Linguistics
Ride
Sail
Socialize
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms
Ability/Yozi
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) [(Permanent Essence x3)+Willpower]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Permanent Essence x7)+Willpower)+Sum of Virtues]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Lunar SheetName:
Caste:
Spirit Animal:
Anima:
Tell:

Motivation:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8 [9 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6 [7 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4 [5 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
[Note: Place [C]aste and [F]avoured tags, for clarity. Casteless do not get Caste abilities, obviously]
(Specializations +)

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 25 [28 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots)

Archery
Martial Arts
Melee
Thrown
War

Integrity
Performance
Presence
Resistance
[F]Survival

Craft
Investigate
Lore
Medicine
Occult

Athletics
Awareness
Dodge
Larceny
Stealth

Bureaucracy
Linguistics
Ride
Sail
Socialize
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms and Knacks
Attribute
Excellencies
[Charms]

Knacks:
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [Permanent Essence+(Willpower x2)]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(((Permanent Essence x4)+Willpower x2)+Highest Virtue x4]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Sidereal SheetName:
Exalt Type and Caste:
Anima:
Anima Power:

Motivation:

Faction:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [A]uspicious and [F]avoured (You get four) tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 35, with at least 15 in Auspicious and Favoured.
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots)
Caste Requirements:
The character must have at least Awareness ••, Bureaucracy ••, Linguistics (Old Realm) •, Lore •••, Martial Arts ••, Occult ••, Socialize •, Stealth • and at least one dot in Archery, Melee or Thrown. There are additional restrictions based on caste:

Chosen of Journeys must have Athletics ••, Linguistics (Old Realm and an appropriate additional language) ••, Resistance ••, Survival •• and Ride or Sail •••.

Chosen of Serenity must have either Craft or Performance ••, Linguistics •• (focusing on eloquent speaking and writing rather than languages), Medicine ••, Presence •• and Socialize •••.

Chosen of Battles must have Archery or Melee •••, Athletics ••, Dodge ••, Presence •• and War ••.

Chosen of Secrets must have Awareness ••, Investigation •••, Larceny ••, Socialize •• and Stealth ••.

Chosen of Endings must have Awareness ••, Dodge ••, Integrity ••, Martial Arts ••• and Stealth ••.
Journeys
Resistance:
Ride:
Sail:
Survival:
Thrown:

Serenity
Craft:
Dodge:
Linguistics:
Performance:
Socialize:

Battles
Archery:
Athletics:
Melee:
Presence:
War:

Secrets
Investigation:
Larceny:
Lore:
Occult:
Stealth:

Endings
Awareness:
Bureaucracy:
Integrity:
Martial Arts:
Medicine:
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:
Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]

Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms
Ability
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat: 9 +1 Sux

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3

Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Permanent Essence x2)+(Willpower)]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(((Permanent Essence x6)+Willpower 2)+Sum of all Virtues]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

[B]Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Dynast Dragonblooded Sheet.Name:
Aspect:
Anima:

Motivation:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 7
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [A]spect and [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 35
13 of these [I]MUST be placed into Aspect or Favoured. Also, I placed Dots where Dots must be. (Archery 1, Lore 2, Martial Arts 1, Melee 1, Performance 1, Presence 1, Ride 1, Socialize 2 and War 1.) You cannot remove these Dots, or Peleps Deled will come for you for a discussion on literature. These dots count towards the Total and the requirement.

Linguistics
Lore ●●
Occult
Stealth
Thrown

Awareness
Craft
Integrity
Resistance
War ●

Athletics
Dodge
Melee ●
Presence ●
Socialize ●●

Bureaucracy
Investigation
Larceny
Martial Arts ●
Sail

Archery ●
Medicine
Performance ●
Ride
Survival
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:
Dynasts start with 12 and may choose from Allies, Arsenal, Artifact, Backing, Breeding, Command, Connections, Familiar, Family, Henchmen, Manse, Reputation, Resources and Retainer. Also, note that Dynasts can go into the 4-5 range without using BP.

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source (Both it's Book and in-Game location]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms7 Charms, at least four of which must be from Aspect or Favored Abilities; Immaculate martial artists get 5 Immaculate Martial Arts Charms instead, all of which must be from the same elemental tree.
Ability
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Crazy Aspect Mode: (Differs, see your aspect entry in the DB book)

Intimacies:
You're a Realm-based DB. There will be many. See with your ST if you can arrange 'lesser' intimacies to represent your dozens of distant cousins and other members of your family that your character isn't that close to. List them in their own subsection just under this one, if so, and just use this for the Intimacies that will actually matter.

Languages:
High Realm (Native), ???

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) [(Essence + Willpower) + any gained from
Breeding]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Essence x 4) + Willpower + [the sum of the two highest Virtues] + any gained from Breeding]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 18/18 | Flaws:
Lookshy Dragonblooded Sheet.Name:
Aspect:
Anima:

Motivation:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 7
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [A]spect and [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 35
13 of these MUST be placed into Aspect or Favoured. Also, I placed Dots where Dots must be. (Archery 2, Linguistics 3, Lore 2, Martial Arts 2, Melee 2, Performance 1, Presence 1, Ride 1, Stealth 1 and War 2.) You cannot remove these Dots.

Linguistics ●●●
Lore ●●
Occult
Stealth ●
Thrown

Awareness
Craft
Integrity
Resistance
War ●●

Athletics
Dodge
Melee ●●
Presence ●
Socialize ●●

Bureaucracy
Investigation
Larceny
Martial Arts ●●
Sail

Archery ●●
Medicine
Performance ●
Ride ●
Survival
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:
Lookshy Dragonblooded start with 13 points of Backgrounds and may choose from Allies, Arsenal, Artifact, Backing, Command, Connections, Familiar, Family, Manse, Mentor, Reputation, Resources and Retainer.

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source (Both it's Book and in-Game location]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
CharmsLookshy characters all start play with Wind-Carried Word Technique and Elemental Bolt Attack, to which they add 6 Dragon-Blooded Charms, 4 of which must come from Aspect or Favored Abilities; Lookshy DBs may not start play with Immaculate Martial Arts Charms.
Ability
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Crazy Aspect Mode: (Differs, see your aspect entry in the DB book)

Intimacies:

Languages:
???

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) [(Essence + Willpower) + any gained from
Breeding]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Essence x 4) + Willpower + [the sum of the two highest Virtues] + any gained from Breeding]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 18/18 | Flaws:
Outcaste Dragonblooded Sheet. Poor buggers.Name:
Aspect:
Anima:

Motivation:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 7
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [A]spect and [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 25
13 of these MUST be placed into Aspect or Favoured.

Linguistics
Lore
Occult
Stealth
Thrown

Awareness
Craft
Integrity
Resistance
War

Athletics
Dodge
Melee
Presence
Socialize

Bureaucracy
Investigation
Larceny
Martial Arts
Sail

Archery
Medicine
Performance
Ride
Survival
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:
Outcastes get 7, and use the Backgrounds from the Core Exalted book; no Background may be higher than 3 without spending bonus points. Note that this means you don't get the awesome version of the Artifact background.

Also, you get Breeding.

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source (Both it's Book and in-Game location]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms Outcastes get 7 to choose from, 4 must be from Favoured or Aspect. Abilities; an outcaste with a Mentor 5 sifu who opts to learn Celestial martial arts [see sidebar on p. 95] get 5 Celestial Martial Arts Charms instead, all of which must be from the same elemental tree.
Ability
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Crazy Aspect Mode: (Differs, see your aspect entry in the DB book)

Intimacies:

Languages:
???

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) [(Essence + Willpower) + any gained from
Breeding]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Essence x 4) + Willpower + [the sum of the two highest Virtues] + any gained from Breeding]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 18/18 | Flaws:

[The Rose Dragon]

Also, there is this:


So it was that the Holy Tyrant beheld Creation, and was disappointed.

"It doesn't work," His ineffable presence said.

"We worked very hard on it! Why do you have to be so insufferable?" Cytherea said, halfway to working Herself into a righteous huff. Gaia had gone off wandering in the Wyld again with not even a note on the nightstand.

"It doesn't even have photons. The last one had photons, how am I supposed to Shine if there's no light?"

"And no chemical reactions," the Whispering Flame chimed unbidden.

"And no chemical reactions," the Holy Tyrant agreed, which sent the Flame into a fifteen-dimensional spin of blushing, "how are we going to purify anything without chemical reactions?"

"It's got untold quintillions of tiny spirits that govern reactions!" Cytherea protested, "here, try combining a couple of things and see what happens."

The Holy Tyrant willed a measure of water to be combined with a measure of earth. "See, when the little guys get it on together it'll make mud," Cytherea explained. The ocean was placed into the recesses of the land and although it made crashing waves and flooded most dramatically, it made no mud.

"It doesn't work," the Tyrant insisted.

"Hrm, you're right, the spirits aren't into it," Cytherea agreed, puzzled, "maybe I need to give them some incentive..."

"If that is all that is required," Theion said, expanding to his full breadth, grandiose and terrible as he was omnipresent, "then I will provide what they need!" So saying, he suffused the length and breadth of Creation with himself, observing every single mote and speck, swinging untold quintillions of miniscule forces into untold quintillions of little gods, giving every last one a righteous boot to the backside.

"Get to work!" He said with the voice that encompassed the whole world, as mountains quaked and seas roared with a new animation to them.

So it was that Creation was given the will - and the desire - to change.

[Lochar]

You missed the colors.

[KnightDisciple]

The lack of Alchemicals in the picture or the sheets makes me a sad panda. :smallfrown:

[Qwertystop]

Well. New thread. Um.


Why are they adding so many new Exalt types? Just curiosity here.

[Weimann]

Well, the old ones have been around for a while, and I guess it kind of stifles creativity to have to figure out a way to put all their ideas into these very well-known forms.

Also, they want to add the unknown and mysterious factor to 3e, and having new things that no one knows about yet is surely a way to do that.

Personally, I was largely against it from the start, but the more I actually hear about them, the more I like them. Exigents may literally be the best idea in the history of Exalted. I've not even read 1e and I feel I can say this with confidence.

[The Rose Dragon]

Strange, I had the exact opposite reaction. I thought it could be done well, but the more I hear about them, the less enthusiastic I become.

((Where are my Nocturnals and Umbrals, dammit.))

[Qwertystop]

Well, the old ones have been around for a while, and I guess it kind of stifles creativity to have to figure out a way to put all their ideas into these very well-known forms.

Also, they want to add the unknown and mysterious factor to 3e, and having new things that no one knows about yet is surely a way to do that.

Personally, I was largely against it from the start, but the more I actually hear about them, the more I like them. Exigents may literally be the best idea in the history of Exalted. I've not even read 1e and I feel I can say this with confidence.

Exigents, yes, sorta. But the others just sound weird.

[JMobius]

((Where are my Nocturnals and Umbrals, dammit.))

Explicitly not happening.


Exigents, yes, sorta. But the others just sound weird.

How so?

[Mewtarthio]

How so?

Well, the Getimians are filled with spiders, for starters...

[The Rose Dragon]

Well, the Getimians are filled with spiders, for starters...

Also? Really awkward name that doesn't end with either L or R, and in fact isn't even a real word, unlike all the other Exalt type names.

((Actually, Getimians could work, assuming their patron is somewhere on the level of the Incarnae and not just a random chump, cannot control the Exaltations, and they get a rename.))

[Qwertystop]

How so?

Assuming the snippets I can remember are true, we've got some that are basically Frankenstein's Monsters, even though "multiple people" is taken by Alchemicals, "dead" is taken by Abyssals, and "monsters" is taken by... really everyone who isn't Solar or Sidereal, depending on implementation.

And... actually, that's the only non-Exigent new kind that's coming to mind. I've really more been following it here than on the Exalted forums.

[JMobius]

Also? Really awkward name that doesn't end with either L or R, and in fact isn't even a real word, unlike all the other Exalt type names.

"Getimian" is actually an Old English word for "Time".


Assuming the snippets I can remember are true, we've got some that are basically Frankenstein's Monsters, even though "multiple people" is taken by Alchemicals, "dead" is taken by Abyssals, and "monsters" is taken by... really everyone who isn't Solar or Sidereal, depending on implementation.

And... actually, that's the only non-Exigent new kind that's coming to mind. I've really more been following it here than on the Exalted forums.

The three new types that have been revealed are Getimians (anti-Sidereals), Liminals (the ones you describe), and Exigents (which are more of a new class of beings than anything else). I believe there are more, but they are not yet revealed.

As created (un)lifeforms, I think the Liminals likely have the most in common with Alchemicals. As the writers love Alchemicals, I'm pretty sure they've found and staked out a distinct enough conceptual space to work in.

Abyssals are also not dead.

[The Rose Dragon]

"Getimian" is actually an Old English word for "Time".

Somehow, that's even worse.

[Gensh]

Personally, I was largely against it from the start, but the more I actually hear about them, the more I like them. Exigents may literally be the best idea in the history of Exalted. I've not even read 1e and I feel I can say this with confidence.

I dislike the name "Getimian" terribly, even thought technically, Exigent breaks the naming convention as well.

The sad thing about the previews has been that as they've gone on, I have been increasingly liked the new splats and disliked the old splats. I read the story about Janest here first, with no context, and said: "Finally, I might actually care about Solars." NOPE. :smallamused:

Likewise, theming the Abyssal Charmset after the thirteen worst people in the history of Creation seems rather drastically misguided, as you're just looking to start the kinds of tiffs that the Lover's preview did. The Infernals preview was honestly just flat boring to me. Evil Green Solars, ahoy~ :smallwink:

[Qwertystop]

Abyssals are also not dead.

No, but they're pretty close. I mean, one major... whassword... title-for-group... like how Solars are Lawgivers...

Anyway one, whatever-that's-called is Deathknights. And they Exalt (assuming that's not changing) by being about to die and then the Neverborn show up. And they get trained in the Underworld, by ghosts.

It's really about as close as you can get to dead while being alive and functional, if you exclude "bleeding out" and/or "comatose", and similar "dying" things.

[Mr.Bookworm]

As created (un)lifeforms, I think the Liminals likely have the most in common with Alchemicals. As the writers love Alchemicals, I'm pretty sure they've found and staked out a distinct enough conceptual space to work in.

They're actually Prometheans. Like, I was actually a little baffled when we got the previews, because I thought the writers would put more of a spin on them than that.

I mean, Promethean is easily my favorite of the WoD splats, so I'm cool with it, it was just a little confusing at first.


((Where are my Nocturnals and Umbrals, dammit.))

What are Umbrals?

[The Rose Dragon]

I dislike the name "Getimian" terribly, even thought technically, Exigent breaks the naming convention as well.

Well, at least Exigent is still a modern adjective, unlike Getimian, which turns out to be an Old English verb (that, or online dictionaries hate me).

[Berdium]

The Liminal Preview seemed a bit too World of Darkness to me but I'll give them a chance until their splatbook comes out. The Underworld is a bit empty too me, even if it is dead. Would like there to be more stuff there, so Liminals on the whole are probably going to be good. I have zero opinion on Getimians either way.

I'm actually not very excited for Exigents. They scream of 'Special Snowflake' to me. It seemed the Developers were stepping back from Infernals being show stealers and then they literally introduce the Exalt that will obviously steal attention from everything. "You are literally the only one! No one else was chosen like you!" Ugh. It just feels to me like they'll step on the role that Terrestials and God Bloods were already supposed to fill.

[Exthalion]

Likewise, theming the Abyssal Charmset after the thirteen worst people in the history of Creation seems rather drastically misguided, as you're just looking to start the kinds of tiffs that the Lover's preview did. The Infernals preview was honestly just flat boring to me. Evil Green Solars, ahoy~ :smallwink:

Because having it grow down to the mouth of Oblivion was better? It actually brings to mind the School of Athens with the Solar charmset representing Plato, pointing up with one finger to heaven while the Abyssal charmset stands in for Aristotle with his fingers spread and angled lower. The Abyssals' magic is broken, inverted by the profane influence of those who thought they could do better than perfection.

Seems fitting. (I don't like to play Abyssals, but that is for aesthetic reasons.)

As for Infernals, I really liked the thematic charmsets and I think there are hints that their charms might grow toward that after you assemble a sufficiently large shintai.

[The Rose Dragon]

I'm actually not very excited for Exigents. They scream of 'Special Snowflake' to me. It seemed the Developers were stepping back from Infernals being show stealers and then they literally introduce the Exalt that will obviously steal attention from everything. "You are literally the only one! No one else was chosen like you!" Ugh. It just feels to me like they'll step on the role that Terrestials and God Bloods were already supposed to fill.

I have other concerns - primarily, that Exaltation is no longer a divine fire given to humanity that cannot be controlled or contained by the gods. I am also not fond of the whole "law of diminishing" concept used to explain why not every god has an Exalt, and why Infernals are what they are.

But not as much as my concern over the name Getimian. Seriously, would it kill them to find a less horribly awkward name?

[Kyeudo]

No, but they're pretty close. I mean, one major... whassword... title-for-group... like how Solars are Lawgivers...


The word you are looking for is "sobriquet".

[The Rose Dragon]

The word you are looking for is "sobriquet".

I personally prefer the term epithet. Has a better ring to it.

[Gensh]

Because having it grow down to the mouth of Oblivion was better? It actually brings to mind the School of Athens with the Solar charmset representing Plato, pointing up with one finger to heaven while the Abyssal charmset stands in for Aristotle with his fingers spread and angled lower. The Abyssals' magic is broken, inverted by the profane influence of those who thought they could do better than perfection.

Seems fitting. (I don't like to play Abyssals, but that is for aesthetic reasons.)

Oblivion has always held the capacity to be vastly interesting. It just hasn't been. In my early Exalted days, I was an Abyssals fan because of their latent potential. It was never realized in the last edition, and their few unique tricks were gradually disseminated to the other splats. Now, as an Infernal fan, I find it rather lazy that the idea of Charmsets themed after a certain NPC are being removed from my new favorite and given to the old, what with how much they insisted that was a bad idea in the first place.

As for what Abyssals should be, there's more than one flavor of nihilism, and there are a thousand-thousand visions of Death. The Deathlords vaguely represent bits and pieces of what Abyssals could embody, but outright taking after such a small sample is silly.


As for Infernals, I really liked the thematic charmsets and I think there are hints that their charms might grow toward that after you assemble a sufficiently large shintai.

See, there wasn't really anything to go on for Charms. The ones that have been given were vague outlines. They could be really great or really boring - we just don't know. All that we do know is that Infernals are now Ability-based and apparently follow a linear tree without even something like a Sidereal sutra to make that mode of power acquisition interesting.

Incidentally, I dislike the idea of Yozi avatars. There are third circle demons and jouten already; why add something further when you spent half of last edition complaining that what already exists hasn't been used?

The idea of modular shintai arising from this is also dull. If I wanted point buy, then I would play a point buy game. Shintai as lesser embodiments of the Yozis, which do not improve but in leaps and bounds like evolving Pokemon was better suited to the embodiment of lost and broken myths of an age gone by. Not to mention that it will only exacerbate the Devil Tiger problem.

Yet further, the example was really dull. My reaction was: "Why is there an Essence 3 Lunar Charm in here?" It pays lip service to the idea of transhumanism; no more. It does not evoke the crazy old days of sci-fi and fantasy or even classical myth. It just is. And is apparently a reference to Aberrant.

The use of SWLIHN was terribly misguided. There are nearly twenty unused Yozis, and they chose instead to bloat one of the extant ones. The Whispering Flame doesn't need any other form. The one she has is efficient, optimal, flawless, unchanging - those are her themes, and they were reflected in her having only one shintai which was capable of assuming any form and had applications in any situation unlike the combat-focused forms of most of the other Yozis.

Finally, the idea of the Infernals being the stories of the Anathema borne true is fine. But it's also fine for Solars and Abyssals. Why is it, then, the only theme we're given for Infernals? That's dreadfully stifling. That the Yozis are going hands-off is likewise stifling when there were several of us loyalists sitting in the back and waiting for the day when it wouldn't be awful to play the ruthless servants we always knew we could be, without Lillun or the "you-know-what" initiation.


Law of Diminishment

Much like the Great Curse, I am just going to outright ignore this. :smalltongue:

Fixing Creation and turning back the classical cycle of ages was always a momentous task, like rolling a boulder up a hill. Now they're telling us that it starts raining every time someone tries, and they're crushed beneath the boulder when they slip in the mud. Pointless. There are a thousand-thousand other ways the limited number of Exalted and so forth could be explained.

[Exthalion]

Oblivion has always held the capacity to be vastly interesting. It just hasn't been. In my early Exalted days, I was an Abyssals fan because of their latent potential. It was never realized in the last edition, and their few unique tricks were gradually disseminated to the other splats. Now, as an Infernal fan, I find it rather lazy that the idea of Charmsets themed after a certain NPC are being removed from my new favorite and given to the old, what with how much they insisted that was a bad idea in the first place.

As for what Abyssals should be, there's more than one flavor of nihilism, and there are a thousand-thousand visions of Death. The Deathlords vaguely represent bits and pieces of what Abyssals could embody, but outright taking after such a small sample is silly.

It did make more sense for Infernals given that there is a finite and fairly small number of Yozi. The thousand visions of death has been given to the Liminals who can have a thousand thousand forms.


Incidentally, I dislike the idea of Yozi avatars. There are third circle demons and jouten already; why add something further when you spent half of last edition complaining that what already exists hasn't been used?

The idea of grafting Exaltations into the soul hierarchies is interesting and a lot is there for Loyalist and Renegade stories. Swallowing the Scorpion takes a new meaning when you are ripping yourself free and leaving a ragged wound in a Titan behind you.


The idea of modular shintai arising from this is also dull. If I wanted point buy, then I would play a point buy game. Shintai as lesser embodiments of the Yozis, which do not improve but in leaps and bounds like evolving Pokemon was better suited to the embodiment of lost and broken myths of an age gone by. Not to mention that it will only exacerbate the Devil Tiger problem.

Yet further, the example was really dull. My reaction was: "Why is there an Essence 3 Lunar Charm in here?" It pays lip service to the idea of transhumanism; no more. It does not evoke the crazy old days of sci-fi and fantasy or even classical myth. It just is. And is apparently a reference to Aberrant.

Dull it was, but I maintain that it is a callback to the idea that Yozi were made of charms and that as you learn more Yozi charms you became more like them. With this build a Shintai mechanic you are building a small version of a Yozi inside you. When they were made of charms every charm you took was doing that. Now not so much. (Incidentally, what was wrong with them being made of charms? You could have everything be made of charms and the setting would be fine. Every every human innately knew the charm, "Humaniform Existence Definition" that worked like (Yozi) Yozi-Body Unity except small and pathetic would that be particularly bad?)

Though I still dislike the setting ramifications of it being an ablative health track. Shintai should be something you become, not something that you are encased in.


The use of SWLIHN was terribly misguided. There are nearly twenty unused Yozis, and they chose instead to bloat one of the extant ones. The Whispering Flame doesn't need any other form. The one she has is efficient, optimal, flawless, unchanging - those are her themes, and they were reflected in her having only one shintai which was capable of assuming any form and had applications in any situation unlike the combat-focused forms of most of the other Yozis.

She may have one form, but there is room between it and the human body for intermediate stages. Forming yourself into the central orb and building a constellation for example.

[Berdium]

Much like the Great Curse, I am just going to outright ignore this.

It wouldn't feel right to me to ignore one of the more important details of the setting, but even if you were to brush off a problematic element of the plot, the fact is that it's still there. Just because a problem can be patched or cut out by the individual players doesn't mean it isn't still a problem, atleast to me.

[The Rose Dragon]

Gah. I have a Modern Age character stuck in my head and it won't leave it.

Actually, I've got several of those. I don't even like Modern Age that much. Why are there so few Modern Age games in the boards?

[Exthalion]

Gah. I have a Modern Age character stuck in my head and it won't leave it.

Actually, I've got several of those. I don't even like Modern Age that much. Why are there so few Modern Age games in the boards?

Because this is the forum of a D&D based comic and the fact that we have a vocal Exalted fan community does not change the core demographics?

[The Rose Dragon]

Because this is the forum of a D&D based comic and the fact that we have a vocal Exalted fan community does not change the core demographics?

Yes, but there are dozens (OK, maybe just the one) of Exalted games. As far as I can see, none of them are Modern Age games.

Actually, I'm now curious about the ratios of games set in different shards. I imagine the order goes, from highest amount of games to lowest, Default Creation - Gunstar Autochthonia - Burn Legend - Modern Age - Heaven's Reach, but I wonder if there was ever a poll about it.

[Volthawk]

Yes, but there are dozens (OK, maybe just the one) of Exalted games. As far as I can see, none of them are Modern Age games.

Actually, I'm now curious about the ratios of games set in different shards. I imagine the order goes, from highest amount of games to lowest, Default Creation - Gunstar Autochthonia - Burn Legend - Modern Age - Heaven's Reach, but I wonder if there was ever a poll about it.

From what I've seen, on these forums HR seems to be the most popular shard.

[Gensh]

It did make more sense for Infernals given that there is a finite and fairly small number of Yozi. The thousand visions of death has been given to the Liminals who can have a thousand thousand forms.

I...may have suggested in private on more than one occasion that Exigents and Liminals be relabeled as Solars and Abyssals while quietly throwing away the existing content for those splats. :smalltongue:


The idea of grafting Exaltations into the soul hierarchies is interesting and a lot is there for Loyalist and Renegade stories. Swallowing the Scorpion takes a new meaning when you are ripping yourself free and leaving a ragged wound in a Titan behind you.

Did I miss this or is it your own extrapolation?


Dull it was, but I maintain that it is a callback to the idea that Yozi were made of charms and that as you learn more Yozi charms you became more like them. With this build a Shintai mechanic you are building a small version of a Yozi inside you. When they were made of charms every charm you took was doing that. Now not so much.

If anything, that's only worsening the complaints the devs have expressed in regards to the Yozis-as-Charms paradigm. It changes from a creeping inevitability that every Infernal must be subconsciously wary of, deliberately designed by the Yozis as an escape mechanism, to "something that the mad scientist character does."


(Incidentally, what was wrong with them being made of charms? You could have everything be made of charms and the setting would be fine. Every every human innately knew the charm, "Humaniform Existence Definition" that worked like (Yozi) Yozi-Body Unity except small and pathetic would that be particularly bad?)

Echo chamber. There was nothing wrong for those who grasped what the Charms were supposed to mean, especially what the combination of prerequisites for Triumphant Howl meant, but to the majority, it caused the Yozis to fall into the category of solved problems, like how to solo the Ebon Dragon.


Though I still dislike the setting ramifications of it being an ablative health track. Shintai should be something you become, not something that you are encased in.

I want E4 permanent shintai with permanent behavioral modifications. It shouldn't be a final boss form or secret hidden power. It should be like using biological weapons; how much do you value your victory against your humanity. Every time Guts put on the berserker armor, he knew he might not come back, might slay his friends, and might break his own body beyond repair. Every time Guts put on the berserker armor, he needed some outside force to break him out of it. This is what a shintai - even a more benevolent shintai - should be like.


She may have one form, but there is room between it and the human body for intermediate stages. Forming yourself into the central orb and building a constellation for example.

The problem isn't that there's an intermediate stage between humanity and the titans, but rather that this is described as belonging to the full titan. It would be awesome for an Infernal to transition from human to EDI to GLaDOS to SWLIHN, but it's completely deflating when SWLIHN also has those intermediate forms and they aren't unique to your human condition.


It wouldn't feel right to me to ignore one of the more important details of the setting, but even if you were to brush off a problematic element of the plot, the fact is that it's still there. Just because a problem can be patched or cut out by the individual players doesn't mean it isn't still a problem, atleast to me.

The Great Curse isn't a problem. It allegedly exists to show that the First Age wasn't a complete crapsack - it totally wasn't the Solars' fault that they did all those bad things, it was this insidious curse that no one knows about and no one can detect. There's no need for it. With the heights of power Elder Solars can possess, even a sample as small as the Deathlords might have forced the Sidereals to plan the Usurpation. Some of the more cynical Solars and Lunars could have even been in on the plan. The Great Curse is a crutch.

Likewise with the Law of Diminishment. It was already impossibly hard to restore something once lost. In some cases, it was downright impossible due to not having the same sort of resources as a Primordial, let alone the Primordial Host as a united whole. With all the complaints about the Three Spheres Cataclysm erasing whole chunks of Creation, never to return, I'm extremely disappointed in that there isn't an outright uproar about something harebrained as an explicit setting rule stating that things cannot be redone. Sure, rule zero is a thing, but that could be applied to anything.

[The Rose Dragon]

I...may have suggested in private on more than one occasion that Exigents and Liminals be relabeled as Solars and Abyssals while quietly throwing away the existing content for those splats. :smalltongue:

No! Bad Gensh! No cookie!

[Lord Raziere]

I...may have suggested in private on more than one occasion that Exigents and Liminals be relabeled as Solars and Abyssals while quietly throwing away the existing content for those splats. :smalltongue:



Yes! Good Gensh! Have tons of cookies! (::)(::)(::)(::)(::)

[Mewtarthio]

Likewise with the Law of Diminishment. It was already impossibly hard to restore something once lost. In some cases, it was downright impossible due to not having the same sort of resources as a Primordial, let alone the Primordial Host as a united whole. With all the complaints about the Three Spheres Cataclysm erasing whole chunks of Creation, never to return, I'm extremely disappointed in that there isn't an outright uproar about something harebrained as an explicit setting rule stating that things cannot be redone. Sure, rule zero is a thing, but that could be applied to anything.

I'm not sure where you're coming from here. The Law of Diminishment doesn't mean that you can never make new Solars. Just the opposite, in fact: You can make new Solars, if you go on an epic quest to convince the Unconquered Sun to sacrifice a portion of his own life for the world that he has turned his back on.

Plus, I feel like it provides a much better explanation for the Games of Divinity's hold on the Incarnae. It's frankly silly that the spiritual embodiment of perfection, the protean archetypical trickster, and the personifications of Fate all managed to get addicted to those things. I'm not saying there aren't already a lot of good fan explanations out there, but frankly I like the idea that the Incarnae are still recovering from making the Exalts, and that they need to rest at the Games so they can save their strength for when it really matters.

It really hammers home their desperation to free themselves from the Primordials. Much like a fox gnawing off its leg to escape a trap, the Incarnae tore away pieces of themselves to defeat their makers.

[Recaiden]

But not as much as my concern over the name Getimian. Seriously, would it kill them to find a less horribly awkward name?

This. Exigents are singular exalts, but Getimian is a stupid, atraditional name that adds nothing. :smallannoyed:


Incidentally, I dislike the idea of Yozi avatars. There are third circle demons and jouten already; why add something further when you spent half of last edition complaining that what already exists hasn't been used?

I always thought jouten and shintai were the same things.

Incidentally, replacing current Solar and Abyssal with Exigent and Liminal would be neat. But too anti-classical, I think, to work.

[The Rose Dragon]

Incidentally, replacing current Solar and Abyssal with Exigent and Liminal would be neat. But too anti-classical, I think, to work.

Frankly, Solars and Abyssals make a strong statement about the setting through their metaphysical connotations. So far, nothing I've read about either Liminals or the Exalted of the little gods has made me believe they would be able to make such a strong statement.

[Gensh]

I'm not sure where you're coming from here. The Law of Diminishment doesn't mean that you can never make new Solars. Just the opposite, in fact: You can make new Solars, if you go on an epic quest to convince the Unconquered Sun to sacrifice a portion of his own life for the world that he has turned his back on.

I'm not talking about new Solars or the Infernals still utilizing Solar shards - that has always been explained sensibly enough in that the Yozis are incapable of truly creating anything new. I'm talking about what effects it presumably has elsewhere. It's not the Law of Conservation of Awesome, after all.


Plus, I feel like it provides a much better explanation for the Games of Divinity's hold on the Incarnae. It's frankly silly that the spiritual embodiment of perfection, the protean archetypical trickster, and the personifications of Fate all managed to get addicted to those things. I'm not saying there aren't already a lot of good fan explanations out there, but frankly I like the idea that the Incarnae are still recovering from making the Exalts, and that they need to rest at the Games so they can save their strength for when it really matters.

It really hammers home their desperation to free themselves from the Primordials. Much like a fox gnawing off its leg to escape a trap, the Incarnae tore away pieces of themselves to defeat their makers.

That much is fine, but there's no reason to make a setting rule. It's not Dark Souls. I mean, I would like the previews a whole lot more if they reminded me of Dark Souls, but this is a poor choice.


I always thought jouten and shintai were the same things.

Jouten are the physical bodies of the Yozis. Shintai are imitations or avatars of those bodies produced by Infernal Exalts. With the obviously hypothetical exception of my heretical Jouten Shintai which is probably impossible anyway. :smalltongue:


Frankly, Solars and Abyssals make a strong statement about the setting through their metaphysical connotations. So far, nothing I've read about either Liminals or the Exalted of the little gods has made me believe they would be able to make such a strong statement.

Solars not so much. And that's the crux of the argument - they're associated with the UCS, but then told to go and do their own thing. It ends up trying to look left and right at the same time. Solars would be better if they could be Exalted through the traditional method or if Solar Exaltations could be received through a local god on behalf of the UCS, gaining powers not just related to the big glowy dude but also from the patron they actually know and respect.

Honestly, there's no big argument for replacing Abyssals. I simply don't like this direction, and Frankenstein has always been a favorite of mine.

[Tavar]

That much is fine, but there's no reason to make a setting rule. It's not Dark Souls. I mean, I would like the previews a whole lot more if they reminded me of Dark Souls, but this is a poor choice.
It's explicitly not a setting rule, as it's stated to be something the Yozi were told, but that it's not necessarily true.

Also, your argument doesn't seem to actually be based on what the Law of Diminishment says.

Echo chamber. There was nothing wrong for those who grasped what the Charms were supposed to mean, especially what the combination of prerequisites for Triumphant Howl meant, but to the majority, it caused the Yozis to fall into the category of solved problems, like how to solo the Ebon Dragon.

There's also the thought that maybe having the PC's story actually be all about some NPC's was something that's....less than ideal. Oh, and putting too much emphasis on the Yozi, rather than the parts of the setting that don't obviate everything else.



Assuming the snippets I can remember are true, we've got some that are basically Frankenstein's Monsters, even though "multiple people" is taken by Alchemicals, "dead" is taken by Abyssals, and "monsters" is taken by... really everyone who isn't Solar or Sidereal, depending on implementation.

And... actually, that's the only non-Exigent new kind that's coming to mind. I've really more been following it here than on the Exalted forums.
Just like Solars being Chosen heroes means that no one else can be like that(oops, sorry Sidereals, Lunars, and Alchemicals).

Really, your statement about monsters is probably the most accurate. Every Exalt type tends to share things with other types: it's the implementation that is different (Solars, Sidereals, and Alchemicals both give different versions of chosen heroes).

And, I'll throw this out again: the theme naming thing that people always bring up? Dragonblooded and Green Sun Princes. Nevermind that breaking a theme can be extremely informative on it's own.

[Sith_Happens]

Thread title nitpick: Where'd "Imminent" come from? The correct adjective to describe a "Solar [Thing]" is "Glorious.":smalltongue:

[Gensh]

It's explicitly not a setting rule, as it's stated to be something the Yozi were told, but that it's not necessarily true.

Also, your argument doesn't seem to actually be based on what the Law of Diminishment says.

When was the last time Autochthon was mentioned as a trickster? I mean, he was, but that characteristic has kind of blown over. More importantly, it isn't described in such a way as a trick. Admittedly, it's hard to tell with the "this is dev voice, except when it isn't" thing. :smallamused:


There's also the thought that maybe having the PC's story actually be all about some NPC's was something that's....less than ideal. Oh, and putting too much emphasis on the Yozi, rather than the parts of the setting that don't obviate everything else.

That's part of what's interesting about Infernals - they're just as bound as the Yozis in a hilarious karmic reversal. The Yozis are very prominent, moreso than any other patron: this is the point. Infernals should be beholden to their masters even more than the Abyssals or Dragonblooded because that's the archetype they're supposed to portray. The Reclamation was laid on a bit thick, but I don't think it was that much of a problem aside from RotSE being a thing that happened.


And, I'll throw this out again: the theme naming thing that people always bring up? Dragonblooded and Green Sun Princes. Nevermind that breaking a theme can be extremely informative on it's own.

Terrestrials and Infernals, broheim. Dragonblooded break from theme due to being on top of the world for centuries and not having any other Terrestrials or Celestials to compare to. Green Sun Princes is a pain to say, but no one really understands the warlock reference, and saying Infernals could lead to confusion with older fans who only knew about akuma.

[Tavar]

That's part of what's interesting about Infernals - they're just as bound as the Yozis in a hilarious karmic reversal. The Yozis are very prominent, moreso than any other patron: this is the point. Infernals should be beholden to their masters even more than the Abyssals or Dragonblooded because that's the archetype they're supposed to portray. The Reclamation was laid on a bit thick, but I don't think it was that much of a problem aside from RotSE being a thing that happened.
And it's a really bad point to have for Exalted, especially as the difference between Abyssals and Infernals is the abyssals were done really really badly.

I'll disagree with the reclamation not being a big deal, given that the newbie game I'm starting has had multiple Infernal submissions, and it's often pretty evident that they feel they need to run Reclamation style plots. Despite not wanting to do 'doom of the world' stuff.


Terrestrials and Infernals, broheim. Dragonblooded break from theme due to being on top of the world for centuries and not having any other Terrestrials or Celestials to compare to. Green Sun Princes is a pain to say, but no one really understands the warlock reference, and saying Infernals could lead to confusion with older fans who only knew about akuma.
So your argument is at least in part that people using terms incorrectly means the usage is actually correct?

Also, please clarify on the exact pattern people see. I mean, there's the -al thing, but that's hardly ubiquitous(Solars and Lunars, for example).

[Gensh]

And it's a really bad point to have for Exalted, especially as the difference between Abyssals and Infernals is the abyssals were done really really badly.

Naaaaaaaah. The point of Infernals is that you start off in a bad situation. Quite likely a worse situation than the Abyssal guy, since at least his monsters are dead and are only dreaming angry thoughts at you rather than being in the same room. The thing is that you goofed or were cheated or whatever, and then you agreed to the demon's deal. Sure, it's not something a lot of people would hold you accountable for, but you know deep down, that you really goofed this time. Any consequences of your actions from now on are your own. To make matters worse, the entire system is conditioned to make you feel good about being bad.

The story of Infernal heroism is starting at the bottom while being convinced that you're at the top - and then making it your own, whether by becoming your own titan or by reforming hell itself. This is what irks me about the only Infernal plot from the preview being a recycled Solar plot - in second edition, you messed up and you knew it regardless of whether you acknowledged it; now, you're just a patsy.


I'll disagree with the reclamation not being a big deal, given that the newbie game I'm starting has had multiple Infernal submissions, and it's often pretty evident that they feel they need to run Reclamation style plots. Despite not wanting to do 'doom of the world' stuff.

I again place the blame on RotSE, with an acknowledgement that it's also somewhat BWC's fault. A new player is definitely going to read his splat's main plot and assume that's the thing they have to do. Solars are going to want to fight the Realm, Abyssals are going to want to kill everything, etc. The problem is that there are two-and-a-half books telling Infernals that they're going to do this thing rather than one. Otherwise, you could just point to the Sid and say "Does this guy look like he's doing paperwork to you? No? Then call in sick to the invasion."


So your argument is at least in part that people using terms incorrectly means the usage is actually correct?

Also, please clarify on the exact pattern people see. I mean, there's the -al thing, but that's hardly ubiquitous(Solars and Lunars, for example).

Heavens, no. I want to be able to stop saying Green Sun Princes as soon as possible. If I understand what you're saying, anyway. I couldn't quite parse the last bit.

More of a standard adjective form. I guess. I'm not a linguist. Sun goes to Solar. Machines going to Alchemical is a bit of a stretch, but whatever. People are also willing to accept Exigent for the most part, because Xes are always cool. Getimian is kind of obnoxious, and pretty much nobody knows what it means, somewhat like the aforementioned Warlock. I complained about Chernozem for the same reason.

EDIT: Whoops! Stayed up late again! I'll be back tomorrow, so don't wait up for me.:smallwink:

[TimeWizard]

This. Exigents are singular exalts, but Getimian is a stupid, atraditional name that adds nothing.

I might have missed a day at Unusual Words Camp, but Exigent is not a word I recognize or would understand in any context without looking it up. Getimian likewise, is the same. Seriously, guys, it's not Serious Business, it's a frickin' name.

Now, Exigents as Solars? too small. A Harvest God is not Sol Invictus. I'm cool with Getimian as Time Exalts because Time is actually one of the few things Exalted doesn't do.

I'm less happy about Infernals losing their unique charm layout idea thing, because I really like the idea of different Exalts having different power layouts (I tolerate Abyssals as "evil mirror version solars"). But if the Devs decide all previous Solar exaltations work Magic A Is Magic A then I'm cool, because I do something incredibly rare: I trust the Devs to make informed style choices because they see the big picture.

Now, onto sordid business:

I, TimeWizard, hereby do level a complaint toward TheRoseDragon, for making this thread with an unapproved title sans consensus. Call me Caesar, because the die has been cast.

[Tavar]

Naaaaaaaah. The point of Infernals is that you start off in a bad situation. Quite likely a worse situation than the Abyssal guy, since at least his monsters are dead and are only dreaming angry thoughts at you rather than being in the same room. The thing is that you goofed or were cheated or whatever, and then you agreed to the demon's deal. Sure, it's not something a lot of people would hold you accountable for, but you know deep down, that you really goofed this time. Any consequences of your actions from now on are your own. To make matters worse, the entire system is conditioned to make you feel good about being bad.

The story of Infernal heroism is starting at the bottom while being convinced that you're at the top - and then making it your own, whether by becoming your own titan or by reforming hell itself. This is what irks me about the only Infernal plot from the preview being a recycled Solar plot - in second edition, you messed up and you knew it regardless of whether you acknowledged it; now, you're just a patsy.

So....abyssals with sane resonance and the Deathlords instead of the Yozi. And, unlike the Yozi, the Deathlords are actually made to be big, important figures in the setting without destroying it.


I again place the blame on RotSE, with an acknowledgement that it's also somewhat BWC's fault. A new player is definitely going to read his splat's main plot and assume that's the thing they have to do. Solars are going to want to fight the Realm, Abyssals are going to want to kill everything, etc. The problem is that there are two-and-a-half books telling Infernals that they're going to do this thing rather than one. Otherwise, you could just point to the Sid and say "Does this guy look like he's doing paperwork to you? No? Then call in sick to the invasion."
Here's the thing: the Solar default story is the game as it's meant to work. Abyssals...aren't, but abyssals in 2ed are crappy. Sidereals actually offers a few different things you can be doing, and they're all pretty much are as working.

The infernal basic plotline is hostile to the other splats plotlines, and tends to overshadow them. This is not good design.



Heavens, no. I want to be able to stop saying Green Sun Princes as soon as possible. If I understand what you're saying, anyway. I couldn't quite parse the last bit.
I am saying that certain groups broke the naming convention. You are holding that those groups did not, in part because people use other terms in place of their name, even though such replacements aren't really correct.


More of a standard adjective form. I guess. I'm not a linguist. Sun goes to Solar. Machines going to Alchemical is a bit of a stretch, but whatever. People are also willing to accept Exigent for the most part, because Xes are always cool. Getimian is kind of obnoxious, and pretty much nobody knows what it means, somewhat like the aforementioned Warlock. I complained about Chernozem for the same reason.
So you're saying that there actually isn't a naming convention at all, and that people are upset because their vocabulary isn't exhaustive, and that if they compare certain sobriquet's to other sobriquet's of different groups their isn't a clear pattern?


I'm less happy about Infernals losing their unique charm layout idea thing, because I really like the idea of different Exalts having different power layouts (I tolerate Abyssals as "evil mirror version solars"). But if the Devs decide all previous Solar exaltations work Magic A Is Magic A then I'm cool, because I do something incredibly rare: I trust the Devs to make informed style choices because they see the big picture.
So you hold that Infernals shouldn't be able to compete in combat(outside of one or two builds)? Or that Infernals should have something like 6 hardbacks for their one splat? Because that's what doing the cloud design seems to require.

[Mewtarthio]

I'm not talking about new Solars or the Infernals still utilizing Solar shards - that has always been explained sensibly enough in that the Yozis are incapable of truly creating anything new. I'm talking about what effects it presumably has elsewhere. It's not the Law of Conservation of Awesome, after all.

Honestly, I really have no idea what you're trying to say. What effects are you talking about? It's not like we've had details about the creation of new Exaltations in the past, because the number of non-Terrestrial Exaltations has always been static.

[SaurOps]

They're actually Prometheans. Like, I was actually a little baffled when we got the previews, because I thought the writers would put more of a spin on them than that.

I mean, Promethean is easily my favorite of the WoD splats, so I'm cool with it, it was just a little confusing at first.


I often think of it on these lines, accurate or not.

Liminals = Promethean Exalted
Alchemicals = Unfleshed Promethean Exalted

[Lord Raziere]

This. Exigents are singular exalts, but Getimian is a stupid, atraditional name that adds nothing. :smallannoyed:


I once had a similar hang up about Liminals real names being the Chernozem.

but then I realized I was an idiot, because why get worked up over names?

but I get where your coming from, you want a more traditional name for them? I'll find you one.

ahem…their name means "time", I looked up a latin word for time, which is tempus, tempus sounds like a more modern word, Temporal

therefore, the Getimians are the Temporal Exalted.

[Andreaz]

I often think of it on these lines, accurate or not.

Liminals = Promethean Exalted
Alchemicals = Unfleshed Promethean ExaltedThey only resemble promethean on the surface, though. The way they deal with their condition seems to be very, very different.

On the whole infernals thing: The charm design was fun, but had two major problems.

It made your character as merely a vessel for another, more important npc.
It made writing a coherent charm tree that enabled players to be able at one given thing impossible. An infernal would either waste xp and have many redundant/unwanted charms or not be able to do all the player wants it to do.

No coolness of charm design replaces that. I'm confident the ability-based charms will be just as interesting to watch, buy and use.

[SaurOps]

They only resemble promethean on the surface, though. The way they deal with their condition seems to be very, very different.


Dragon-Blooded don't too strongly resemble Gui Ren, either. And when bits of V:tM's central thesis get into Abyssals... well, that was the blowback from the Lover's Charms in the Abyssal preview, essentially.

[Gensh]

So....abyssals with sane resonance and the Deathlords instead of the Yozi. And, unlike the Yozi, the Deathlords are actually made to be big, important figures in the setting without destroying it.

I would definitely expand upon the prospective origin stories for Abyssals and Infernals to reduce the general amount of overlap, but for now, yes. Being a Deathknight and being a slave to the broken King of Kings are rather similar situations, with the main difference being in mechanics and socializing. Ideally, this is going to change.

As for destroying Creation, the Yozis are damned irrevocably. They aren't getting out, save by riding the PCs' coattails or if the ST is explicitly running a Reclamation plot. Much like the Deathlords don't ever leave their shadowland bases of operation, the Yozis are unable to really cause any hubbub in Creation, and even then, it is absolutely through the intermediaries of akuma or demons; compare to directly fighting the Mask of Winters in Thorns.


Here's the thing: the Solar default story is the game as it's meant to work. Abyssals...aren't, but abyssals in 2ed are crappy. Sidereals actually offers a few different things you can be doing, and they're all pretty much are as working.

The infernal basic plotline is hostile to the other splats plotlines, and tends to overshadow them. This is not good design.

I would say the Solar and Abyssal positions are switched, and that's considering I know that Abyssals can only be played with a rule-bending ST. :smallamused:

I did say that the monofocus was a bit heavy, but it's not completely destructive. Hell itself is such a mine of material that more experienced players could go off and do anything they wanted; it's primarily the impression that is put upon newbies that's the issue.

As for the plotline being hostile to the other splats:
Solars: Return to rule the world
Lunars: Destroy civilization and make a better one
Sidereals: Secret secret police
Abyssals: Destroy the world
Dragonblooded: Continue oppressing everyone else
Raksha: LULZ EVERYWHERE and also destroy the world in your free time

Again, the bulk of the problem isn't that the Infernals have a badly written destroy the world plot, but that they had a campaign book for it.


I am saying that certain groups broke the naming convention. You are holding that those groups did not, in part because people use other terms in place of their name, even though such replacements aren't really correct.

No, they're most certainly correct, even if they're not the norm. The Infernals book is even labeled as such, after all. Further, the issue isn't necessarily the broken naming convention. After all, Exigent doesn't sound half bad. It's the combination of words that the average player has to look up and words that don't also sound awesome. No one cares what Exigent means because it sounds awesome. No one cares that Alchemical is inaccurate because it sounds awesome. Getimian requires me to enunciate like Dracula.


So you're saying that there actually isn't a naming convention at all, and that people are upset because their vocabulary isn't exhaustive, and that if they compare certain sobriquet's to other sobriquet's of different groups their isn't a clear pattern?

No, there is certainly a naming convention, but occasional lapses are fine so long as they are for a greater good - for example, Terrestrials are called Dragonblooded all the time because they didn't have any other Exalts to deal with for several hundred years and have specifically chosen to use that name instead. Green Sun Princes is really anathema, though. :smalltongue:

Games should always strive to provide easy access. Who are the Solars? The returning Lawgivers bearing the power of the Sun. Who are the Getmen? ...Getaman? ...Getimians? Uncommon terms should be reserved for more esoteric subjects like the shinma or particularly unique and iconic things like shintai. On this note, the use of raksha supplanting fair folk is also a questionable decision.


So you hold that Infernals shouldn't be able to compete in combat(outside of one or two builds)? Or that Infernals should have something like 6 hardbacks for their one splat? Because that's what doing the cloud design seems to require.

This is not even a problem. I solved it. Most people get lost when I try to explain it, so you'll have to wait until I can write some examples after Core is released. :smallamused:


Honestly, I really have no idea what you're trying to say. What effects are you talking about? It's not like we've had details about the creation of new Exaltations in the past, because the number of non-Terrestrial Exaltations has always been static.

I'm not talking about more Exaltations; I'm referring to how the Law of Diminishment being capitalized like that implies that it has more far-reaching aspects. All of which will be cop-outs.


On the whole infernals thing: The charm design was fun, but had two major problems.

It made your character as merely a vessel for another, more important npc.
It made writing a coherent charm tree that enabled players to be able at one given thing impossible. An infernal would either waste xp and have many redundant/unwanted charms or not be able to do all the player wants it to do.

No coolness of charm design replaces that. I'm confident the ability-based charms will be just as interesting to watch, buy and use.

You're not quite a vessel for the Yozis, but the ability to abandon pieces of yourself in order to become more like them is really the point. You are becoming something at once more and less than human. Infernals are becoming bigger and better than everyone but Alchemicals, and even moreso Alchemicals, they're ironically forced to humble themselves to do it.

True. Fixed it. Next question.

I dunno, the Adorjan Charms weren't particularly interesting, and the new version of MHM was downright snoresville. Not that the original was particularly exciting.

[Mewtarthio]

Games should always strive to provide easy access. Who are the Solars? The returning Lawgivers bearing the power of the Sun. Who are the Getmen? ...Getaman? ...Getimians? Uncommon terms should be reserved for more esoteric subjects like the shinma or particularly unique and iconic things like shintai.

I think the average player is about as familiar with the term "Getimian" as they are with "Sidereal." Yes, Sidereal is an actual word meaning "of the stars," but it's rarely used.


On this note, the use of raksha supplanting fair folk is also a questionable decision.

Good news: I've heard the devs want to reduce the prominence of raksha and make them just one type of Fair Folk


I'm not talking about more Exaltations; I'm referring to how the Law of Diminishment being capitalized like that implies that it has more far-reaching aspects. All of which will be cop-outs.

What implications? What cop-outs? It's pretty clear that I'm just not getting something that seems obvious to you, so I'll need you to spell it out as clearly as you can.

[Gensh]

I think the average player is about as familiar with the term "Getimian" as they are with "Sidereal." Yes, Sidereal is an actual word meaning "of the stars," but it's rarely used.

I had never heard of the word prior to dating this girl who was really into astrology, but I think it's a bit too late to complain about the three core splats. :smalltongue:


Good news: I've heard the devs want to reduce the prominence of raksha and make them just one type of Fair Folk

I'm fairly certain it was the other way around. Raksha and Fair Folk are interchangeable terms, and the devs are disappointed that out of limitless chaos, only one splat rose to prominence. I would expect this edition's incarnation of Fair Folk will be similar in design to the Exigents or else there explicitly being more than one type, just as there's more than one type of demon.


What implications? What cop-outs? It's pretty clear that I'm just not getting something that seems obvious to you, so I'll need you to spell it out as clearly as you can.


Firstly, the underlying circle of regicide that mires Creation is not a true cycle but rather a stepped decline modeled after the ages of man as told by Virgil: the Golden Age where men were repressed by the titans but happy, the Silver Age where the gods ruled and men learned many things, the Bronze Age where humans fought among themselves, and the Iron Age where all men suffer. These ages correspond to the Time of Glory (Primordials), First Age (Celestials), Age of Sorrows (Terrestrials), and World of Darkness (Mortals). That World of Darkness can be prevented by player intervention is a reference to the earlier depiction of the ages of man by Hesiod, wherein there was a Heroic Age following the Bronze Age, and is the only age that features any sort of improvement, rather than the rapid decay as with the other changes. The cardinal rule of Exalted is that actions have consequences and cannot be undone.

Actions should have consequences, and there are no backsies. That doesn't mean that someone else can't work twice as hard as you and shove things back more or less where they used to be. The Third Age can be brighter than the First. That there's now a thing called "The Law of Diminishment" rather than "The Law of Conservation of Power" or "The Great Cost" or something implies that other things are going to be permanently reduced. Some posters have hypothesized that the LoD had to do with Autochthon's sickness. No; that's a core concept of Autochthon, and saying that the LoD caused it or made it worse is putting too many cooks in the kitchen.

[The_Snark]

My impression was that the Law of Diminishment referred mostly to the creation of the Exalted: that is to say, if you want to gift humans with a divine fire that cannot be controlled or contained (to borrow TRD's phrase) then you have to pay the price. It makes sense. You can't pull divine fire out of nowhere. It has to come from something, and typically that source is you, the divinity bestowing said power.

This allows for the introduction of new Exalted, while explaining why they aren't too commonplace. It doesn't necessarily mean "the entire setting is suffering from Tolkien Elf Syndrome." I suppose that's one possible interpretation, but it seems like you're leaping to the worst possible conclusion. :smallconfused:

[Tavar]

I would definitely expand upon the prospective origin stories for Abyssals and Infernals to reduce the general amount of overlap, but for now, yes. Being a Deathknight and being a slave to the broken King of Kings are rather similar situations, with the main difference being in mechanics and socializing. Ideally, this is going to change.
I don't think changing the origin stories is really going to do all that much. Changing the focus of each one, that would actually accomplish something, though that would involve, you know, changing major components of those splats.


As for destroying Creation, the Yozis are damned irrevocably. They aren't getting out, save by riding the PCs' coattails or if the ST is explicitly running a Reclamation plot. Much like the Deathlords don't ever leave their shadowland bases of operation, the Yozis are unable to really cause any hubbub in Creation, and even then, it is absolutely through the intermediaries of akuma or demons; compare to directly fighting the Mask of Winters in Thorns.
This is kinda my point: the Mask of Winters is designed, setting wise, to be able to work inside Creation without everyone automatically have to drop what they're doing and interact with him. None of the Yozi's are, which means they automatically either draw attention away from Creation if they're an ever-present boss(as you are holding), or they get into creation, and then draw all attention(the basic reclamation thing).




I would say the Solar and Abyssal positions are switched, and that's considering I know that Abyssals can only be played with a rule-bending ST.
Can you explain what you mean there?

Or is it just your Solar Hate?

I did say that the monofocus was a bit heavy, but it's not completely destructive. Hell itself is such a mine of material that more experienced players could go off and do anything they wanted; it's primarily the impression that is put upon newbies that's the issue.

As for the plotline being hostile to the other splats:
Solars: Return to rule the world
Lunars: Destroy civilization and make a better one
Sidereals: Secret secret police
Abyssals: Destroy the world
Dragonblooded: Continue oppressing everyone else
Raksha: LULZ EVERYWHERE and also destroy the world in your free time


Again, the bulk of the problem isn't that the Infernals have a badly written destroy the world plot, but that they had a campaign book for it.
Abyssals, Infernals, and Raksha all have badly done basic plots. Considering the quality of those 3 books, this isn't terribly surprising. Oh, Infernals has a decent mechanics section(for 2.0), but chapters one and two?

As for the things you listed, well, I don't think the basic Solar story is accurate, and the Sidereal story doesn't show how it's hostile. But, those are also not necessarily hostile to the other main splats. You can play a Lunar doing their basic plot, a Solar doing theirs, and a Sidreal doing theirs, and have no problem. You cannot do an Infernal doing theirs or an Abyssal doing theirs without the expectation of PVP. This is, in my opinion, something of an issue.

The fact that their are firm 'destroy the world' factions and no ' protect the world' factions also serves to make anyone who isn't team evil look a little petty.



No, they're most certainly correct, even if they're not the norm. The Infernals book is even labeled as such, after all. Further, the issue isn't necessarily the broken naming convention. After all, Exigent doesn't sound half bad. It's the combination of words that the average player has to look up and words that don't also sound awesome. No one cares what Exigent means because it sounds awesome. No one cares that Alchemical is inaccurate because it sounds awesome. Getimian requires me to enunciate like Dracula.
Because the book is for both Akuma and Green Sun Princes. You'll also notice in it's lexicon area, it explicitly makes the distinction between those terms. You might not like it, but that's what the books say, so, um, yeah.

And, personally, I like the name Getimian. Just, well, if the argument is pure personal preference, then phrase it as such, rather than using stuff like a naming convention as a poor excuse.

No, there is certainly a naming convention, but occasional lapses are fine so long as they are for a greater good - for example, Terrestrials are called Dragonblooded all the time because they didn't have any other Exalts to deal with for several hundred years and have specifically chosen to use that name instead. Green Sun Princes is really anathema, though. :smalltongue:

Games should always strive to provide easy access. Who are the Solars? The returning Lawgivers bearing the power of the Sun. Who are the Getmen? ...Getaman? ...Getimians? Uncommon terms should be reserved for more esoteric subjects like the shinma or particularly unique and iconic things like shintai. On this note, the use of raksha supplanting fair folk is also a questionable decision.
Again, can you provide what this mythical naming convention is? Oh, there are several -al's, but there are also several that do not fit(Solars, Lunars, Green Sun Princes).

I've known the term raksha for over a decade. I first encountered the term Sidereal much with Exalted later, and the term Fair Folk sometime after Raksha.

Personally, I think going for ease of access with names is a fools errand, largely because different cultural backgrounds create different things one is familiar with.

I'd also take issue with your statements about Solar or Lunar or whatever actually informing much about said Exalts. I mean, yes, they tell you who they're associated with, or the location, but what is the Sun associated with in Exalted? What is the Moon? What is Hell?

Those answers are only provided by looking at the material, and just looking at the base word often gives very erroneous associations(Infernals are associated with hell, and thus are always evil, just like demons).

Personally, I much prefer things like Liminal(not telling who they're associated with, but something core about their beings), or stuff like Getimians(which, while having an actual definition, are not clearly associated with anything in particular, and thus do no encourage false pre-conceptions)

This is not even a problem. I solved it. Most people get lost when I try to explain it, so you'll have to wait until I can write some examples after Core is released. :smallamused:
Yeah, excuse me if I don't believe what you're saying.

Too often I see people say something to do with massive charm design(ie, a splat or Yozi charmtree, rather than a couple of charms) is easy, but they never actually, you know, do or say anything to prove that.

[Mewtarthio]

Actions should have consequences, and there are no backsies. That doesn't mean that someone else can't work twice as hard as you and shove things back more or less where they used to be. The Third Age can be brighter than the First. That there's now a thing called "The Law of Diminishment" rather than "The Law of Conservation of Power" or "The Great Cost" or something implies that other things are going to be permanently reduced.

I don't see this implication at all. It strikes me as a little pessimistic that you would immediately jump from "There is a thing called the Law of Diminishment" to "The world is doomed to slide into darkness."

As for why it's not called "The Law of Conservation of Power"? That's because power isn't conserved. Strawmaiden Janest can stand against an entire army of Fair Folk where Ten Sheathes could not. If she survives, she can go on to raise her Essence score and become even greater. Meanwhile, a new god will eventually replace Ten Sheathes. Heck, the Incarnae created 700 Celestial Exalted, and they're still alive! Exaltation explicitly does not conserve the power of a system: It increases it.

[Gensh]

My impression was that the Law of Diminishment referred mostly to the creation of the Exalted: that is to say, if you want to gift humans with a divine fire that cannot be controlled or contained (to borrow TRD's phrase) then you have to pay the price. It makes sense. You can't pull divine fire out of nowhere. It has to come from something, and typically that source is you, the divinity bestowing said power.

This allows for the introduction of new Exalted, while explaining why they aren't too commonplace. It doesn't necessarily mean "the entire setting is suffering from Tolkien Elf Syndrome." I suppose that's one possible interpretation, but it seems like you're leaping to the worst possible conclusion. :smallconfused:

That creating Exaltations was extremely difficult was already a thing, if somewhat vague. I just don't see the point in introducing another Capitalized Term if it only has one effect.


I don't think changing the origin stories is really going to do all that much. Changing the focus of each one, that would actually accomplish something, though that would involve, you know, changing major components of those splats.

Infernals already has plenty foci, and Abyssals has at least three or four; it's just a matter of redirection. Even if you want to - for example - keep the Reclamation, then it becomes a matter of expanding that to encompass the whole of hell rather than the whims of the Ebon Dragon. Cytherea was also planning her own, much more covert, escape attempt as of Compass: Malfeas, yet the focus remained on the Dragon in preparation for RotSE.


This is kinda my point: the Mask of Winters is designed, setting wise, to be able to work inside Creation without everyone automatically have to drop what they're doing and interact with him. None of the Yozi's are, which means they automatically either draw attention away from Creation if they're an ever-present boss(as you are holding), or they get into creation, and then draw all attention(the basic reclamation thing).

That's actually the point of the Yozis. They're supposed to draw attention away from Creation. If you wanted to step up your game or deal with crazy esoteric magic and spirits but couldn't do that with the setting's casual treatment of gods, then you could go to hell instead. Likewise, they're not supposed to be able to escape exactly because that would overshadow much of the setting. The greatest threat that hell can throw at the PCs without them goofing or the ST realizing that summoning is written really poorly is Ligier breaking through the cracks, which requires an exceedingly rare occurrence, and only gives him until sunrise or sunset in which to act. The dangers hell poses in Creation are much more manageable, like the cult of Sondok from Jade's backstory.


Can you explain what you mean there?

Or is it just your Solar Hate?

Generally, Solars are forced to look right and left at the same time: they're supposed to be individuals but also have to carry the baggage of traditional "good" themes. All Exalts suffer from this slightly, but Solars have it worse since they're the core splat, and a lot of times, newbies don't understand IT'S A TRAP! /ackbar

Beyond that, it's mostly a matter of taste. I love scenery porn and hamtacular characters, and Abyssals had both in plenty. Solars have the misfortune of not simply being vanilla, but being that cheap vanilla that you get in giant tubs for childrens' parties. I love me some french vanilla and vanilla bean, but Solars aren't either as things stand, and I'm more than likely to just play a D&D game since I can actually put together a group for that. Unless Solars change drastically, they'll always have the baggage of "but I could play this character in a game I actually know the mechanics for."


Abyssals, Infernals, and Raksha all have badly done basic plots. Considering the quality of those 3 books, this isn't terribly surprising. Oh, Infernals has a decent mechanics section(for 2.0), but chapters one and two?

I...didn't mind them. They actually had a lot of great material, like the caste social powers, and as a writer, I can at least understand the purpose behind the squick. It certainly doesn't belong in a playable splat, but I have seen much worse. Further, it was laid on so thick that it was practically camp.


As for the things you listed, well, I don't think the basic Solar story is accurate, and the Sidereal story doesn't show how it's hostile. But, those are also not necessarily hostile to the other main splats. You can play a Lunar doing their basic plot, a Solar doing theirs, and a Sidreal doing theirs, and have no problem. You cannot do an Infernal doing theirs or an Abyssal doing theirs without the expectation of PVP. This is, in my opinion, something of an issue.

The fact that their are firm 'destroy the world' factions and no ' protect the world' factions also serves to make anyone who isn't team evil look a little petty.

The other splats aren't as likely to engage in combat with everyone, no, but it's still very likely. Infernals are implied to need to do all these horrible things, but then you look at the Charms and say, "hey, isn't this actually a good thing?" It's a rather clever trick, though much like the sobriquet warlock, the more obvious imagery covered up the deliciousness beneath. Abyssals...were more than a little unfortunate, yes.

Yeah. I was extremely surprised that the Infernal preview was "return of the First Age" rather than "look at all these things you can do that aren't the Reclamation." As I mentioned, I think the intention in second edition might have been for the PCs to lead the redemption story, but if so, they kind of fell off a cliff.


Because the book is for both Akuma and Green Sun Princes. You'll also notice in it's lexicon area, it explicitly makes the distinction between those terms. You might not like it, but that's what the books say, so, um, yeah.

And, personally, I like the name Getimian. Just, well, if the argument is pure personal preference, then phrase it as such, rather than using stuff like a naming convention as a poor excuse.

Again, can you provide what this mythical naming convention is? Oh, there are several -al's, but there are also several that do not fit(Solars, Lunars, Green Sun Princes).

I've known the term raksha for over a decade. I first encountered the term Sidereal much with Exalted later, and the term Fair Folk sometime after Raksha.

Personally, I think going for ease of access with names is a fools errand, largely because different cultural backgrounds create different things one is familiar with.

Yes, they're both Infernals, and GSP was used more frequently because it would have been confusing otherwise. I already said that. They're not any less Infernals than the Dragonblooded are Terrestrials with the addition of Alchemicals. (Assuming the division is based on reproducible vs imperishable).

I am Lawful Neutral. Breaking patterns without a good reason drives me up a wall. Equally important, it breaks the mythic parallelism/sacred words angle. I was also against warlock, until someone told me what it literally meant, and then I thought it was too clever for its own good. Exigents can break the pattern because their theme is that they lack a unifying theme; so too might their name not be unified with the others. Getimian as a word is terribly obnoxious. Not even because it's archaic, but because it doesn't roll off the tongue quite right; see also Vizard from Bleach, which is easy to say and has both a v and a z in it, making it cool.

Hindu and Celtic mythology are AWESOME, so I knew about rakshasa and sidhe long before I played Exalted. That doesn't help getting other people into it, even the people I know would enjoy it as much as I do.

Yes, but it's because of that that ease of access is more important. It's the reason why a lot of humor in manga fails when translated - because it's clever wordplay that simply doesn't cross cultural or linguistic bounds. Better then to make it simple and straightforward.


I'd also take issue with your statements about Solar or Lunar or whatever actually informing much about said Exalts. I mean, yes, they tell you who they're associated with, or the location, but what is the Sun associated with in Exalted? What is the Moon? What is Hell?

Those answers are only provided by looking at the material, and just looking at the base word often gives very erroneous associations(Infernals are associated with hell, and thus are always evil, just like demons).

Personally, I much prefer things like Liminal(not telling who they're associated with, but something core about their beings), or stuff like Getimians(which, while having an actual definition, are not clearly associated with anything in particular, and thus do no encourage false pre-conceptions)

Very true! But there really aren't any better options unless they start calling demons devas (etc.), and they didn't even do that in Gunstar where it would have made sense. I actually look forward to Liminals as long as they continue not using the sobriquet chernozem.


Yeah, excuse me if I don't believe what you're saying.

Too often I see people say something to do with massive charm design(ie, a splat or Yozi charmtree, rather than a couple of charms) is easy, but they never actually, you know, do or say anything to prove that.

You forget about the time that I declared I was writing Dragonblooded in Space, the webcomic, the Autochthon Charmset, the talk show, the Gangwar Shard, etc. :smalltongue:

I know exactly what you're talking about, but I don't feel like waiting on an official Charmset that I'm concerned will be boring. And I can actually accomplish things given that sort of motivation, such as the terrible musical number (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsR1U0tasfQ), discontinued (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AcgbmSyOcU) documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0CZM_m9JSs), and several dozen Charms that are bad and should make me feel bad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202456).

I'm already drawing up PLANS, but I can't get any really negative criticism from anybody because walls of text are intimidating. My previous offer of cooperation still stands. :smallwink:


a little pessimistic

You don't know me very well, do you? :smallamused:


As for why it's not called "The Law of Conservation of Power"? That's because power isn't conserved. Strawmaiden Janest can stand against an entire army of Fair Folk where Ten Sheathes could not. If she survives, she can go on to raise her Essence score and become even greater. Meanwhile, a new god will eventually replace Ten Sheathes. Heck, the Incarnae created 700 Celestial Exalted, and they're still alive! Exaltation explicitly does not conserve the power of a system: It increases it.

I was playing more off the Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu trope, which in turn plays off of the various Laws of Conservation of X in physics. It was a joke. More than anything, I was concerned that they were talking about some anomalous capitalized setting thing in what should have been the Infernals preview. That's effort that could have been redirected elsewhere, so it must have been pretty important.

[horngeek]

Solars are not the splat with the most obvious 'Good' baggage. They're the splat with 'Hero' themes.

There's a difference.

On a completely different note, I'm curious to see how convertible Shards rules will be to 3e. Mostly the Firearms and Drive abilities, as well as their weapons, vehicles and Charms.

[Tavar]

That creating Exaltations was extremely difficult was already a thing, if somewhat vague. I just don't see the point in introducing another Capitalized Term if it only has one effect.
Because most people did not treat it as something difficult. Instead, it was more treated as there was some very difficult barrier to entry, but once past that it was easy. In that case, formalizing it as something very difficult in an of itself is worthwhile.


Infernals already has plenty foci, and Abyssals has at least three or four; it's just a matter of redirection. Even if you want to - for example - keep the Reclamation, then it becomes a matter of expanding that to encompass the whole of hell rather than the whims of the Ebon Dragon. Cytherea was also planning her own, much more covert, escape attempt as of Compass: Malfeas, yet the focus remained on the Dragon in preparation for RotSE.
So what are they?


That's actually the point of the Yozis. They're supposed to draw attention away from Creation. If you wanted to step up your game or deal with crazy esoteric magic and spirits but couldn't do that with the setting's casual treatment of gods, then you could go to hell instead. Likewise, they're not supposed to be able to escape exactly because that would overshadow much of the setting. The greatest threat that hell can throw at the PCs without them goofing or the ST realizing that summoning is written really poorly is Ligier breaking through the cracks, which requires an exceedingly rare occurrence, and only gives him until sunrise or sunset in which to act. The dangers hell poses in Creation are much more manageable, like the cult of Sondok from Jade's backstory.
Source for this? Everything I've seen from the developers seems to hold that that is not the Yozi's purposed. Especially since it also draws quite a bit of attention away from what's supposed to be the interesting part of hell, IE the demons.


Generally, Solars are forced to look right and left at the same time: they're supposed to be individuals but also have to carry the baggage of traditional "good" themes. All Exalts suffer from this slightly, but Solars have it worse since they're the core splat, and a lot of times, newbies don't understand IT'S A TRAP! /ackbar
Not sure what you're really getting at here.

Beyond that, it's mostly a matter of taste. I love scenery porn and hamtacular characters, and Abyssals had both in plenty. Solars have the misfortune of not simply being vanilla, but being that cheap vanilla that you get in giant tubs for childrens' parties. I love me some french vanilla and vanilla bean, but Solars aren't either as things stand, and I'm more than likely to just play a D&D game since I can actually put together a group for that. Unless Solars change drastically, they'll always have the baggage of "but I could play this character in a game I actually know the mechanics for."
Not really clear with what you're getting at here, or how the second paragraph is true.


I...didn't mind them. They actually had a lot of great material, like the caste social powers, and as a writer, I can at least understand the purpose behind the squick. It certainly doesn't belong in a playable splat, but I have seen much worse. Further, it was laid on so thick that it was practically camp.
So having things inappropriate for playable splats is a mark of quality?


The other splats aren't as likely to engage in combat with everyone, no, but it's still very likely. Infernals are implied to need to do all these horrible things, but then you look at the Charms and say, "hey, isn't this actually a good thing?" It's a rather clever trick, though much like the sobriquet warlock, the more obvious imagery covered up the deliciousness beneath. Abyssals...were more than a little unfortunate, yes.
Yeah.....if they don't follow their basic plot. Which isn't what I was saying.


Yeah. I was extremely surprised that the Infernal preview was "return of the First Age" rather than "look at all these things you can do that aren't the Reclamation." As I mentioned, I think the intention in second edition might have been for the PCs to lead the redemption story, but if so, they kind of fell off a cliff.




Yes, they're both Infernals, and GSP was used more frequently because it would have been confusing otherwise. I already said that. They're not any less Infernals than the Dragonblooded are Terrestrials with the addition of Alchemicals. (Assuming the division is based on reproducible vs imperishable).
But to call them The Infernal Exalted is factually incorrect, which is kinda the whole point of the naming scheme.


I am Lawful Neutral. Breaking patterns without a good reason drives me up a wall.
Show that their is a pattern first, please. Because as far as I can see, there really isn't one.


Getimian as a word is terribly obnoxious. Not even because it's archaic, but because it doesn't roll off the tongue quite right; see also Vizard from Bleach, which is easy to say and has both a v and a z in it, making it cool.
I disagree, and I hardly think it's the first one that doesn't quite roll of the tongue(Sidereal, Dragonblooded).


Hindu and Celtic mythology are AWESOME, so I knew about rakshasa and sidhe long before I played Exalted. That doesn't help getting other people into it, even the people I know would enjoy it as much as I do.

Yes, but it's because of that that ease of access is more important. It's the reason why a lot of humor in manga fails when translated - because it's clever wordplay that simply doesn't cross cultural or linguistic bounds. Better then to make it simple and straightforward.
So, you're arguing that the Names matter because they tell you so many things, because they actually don't tell you anything and they don't matter?


Very true! But there really aren't any better options unless they start calling demons devas (etc.), and they didn't even do that in Gunstar where it would have made sense. I actually look forward to Liminals as long as they continue not using the sobriquet chernozem.
Why? I think it's good that these things have multiple titles to use.



I'm already drawing up PLANS, but I can't get any really negative criticism from anybody because walls of text are intimidating. My previous offer of cooperation still stands. :smallwink:

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

No. It'd be like getting dental work done with a ball hammer, given our conversations in the past.

[Gensh]

Solars are not the splat with the most obvious 'Good' baggage. They're the splat with 'Hero' themes.

There's a difference.

While a throwaway line, Core did go as far as to refer to Solar Charms as angelic. That such an out-of-place reference was made in the first place has stuck with me. Solar Charms don't share much with angelogy, so the reference is definitely to the modern perception of such. That, combined with golden caste marks to act as a halo, would certainly mislead newbies. A picture is worth a thousand words; in this manner, everyone assumed that the Yozis could escape even though they cannot.


Because most people did not treat it as something difficult. Instead, it was more treated as there was some very difficult barrier to entry, but once past that it was easy. In that case, formalizing it as something very difficult in an of itself is worthwhile.

I agree, but the manner in which it is being done I find exceedingly lazy, with possible unfortunate implications. Especially after the Abyssal preview fiasco.


So what are they?

Each Yozi is a world to itself. You not only have the motivations of the 23 titans to consider, but the 23x20+ third circle demons, the 23x20+x7 second circle demons, the various sodalities, the priesthood, so on and so forth.

Abyssals can be the harbingers of Oblivion, true Deathknights, mediators of the dead, ironic vampire hunters, and probably lots of things I'm too braindead at the moment to think of.


Source for this? Everything I've seen from the developers seems to hold that that is not the Yozi's purposed. Especially since it also draws quite a bit of attention away from what's supposed to be the interesting part of hell, IE the demons.

In regards to eternal damnation, the second paragraph of the intro to Games of Divinity chapter three and the last paragraph of the Ebon Dragon's description there specifies that they can never escape. Since that book was so frequently heralded as THE GREATEST, I presume it's considered a more primary source than the later books, which yet still don't directly contradict this.

I don't have a particular source in regard to the notion that plots in hell are supposed to drag away from Creation unless a demon's escape conditions are fulfilled, simply because everything is canned in there like a bunch of sardines. There's not much else that you could do with it like that.

In regards to the overshadowing of demons, a cursory reading of GoD leaves the distinction between Yozis and demons much more vague. Szoreny was probably just a demon and then promoted by mistake or by laziness in the MoEP. Interest in the Yozis and interest in demons should intertwine and amplify each other.


Not really clear with what you're getting at here, or how the second paragraph is true.

See my response to horngeek; the imagery for Solars needs a bit of a trim, and even then, they're not quite exciting enough. I have to go full POWERTHIRST to get people to join Solar games. Any other splat gets a bit of interest even when I'm not really pushing.


So having things inappropriate for playable splats is a mark of quality?

I said that it made sense; not that it was a good thing. I'd read it as a novel, but I'm going to skip over the initiation ritual in-game just as much as anyone else.


Yeah.....if they don't follow their basic plot. Which isn't what I was saying.

What I'm saying is that the basic plot was both a red herring and a sacred cow.


But to call them The Infernal Exalted is factually incorrect, which is kinda the whole point of the naming scheme.

They are an Infernal Exalted. That such a wordy replacement as GSP was used to specify one of the types was vaguely obnoxious after the first month.


Show that their is a pattern first, please. Because as far as I can see, there really isn't one.

Kind of have. Other people see a pattern too, so I'm not just crazy for once.


I disagree, and I hardly think it's the first one that doesn't quite roll of the tongue(Sidereal, Dragonblooded).

I already said that it's too late to complain about Sidereal, but that's exactly the reason why they always get abbreviated to Sid. Likewise DBs, though I admittedly forgot about them in the aforementioned reference.


So, you're arguing that the Names matter because they tell you so many things, because they actually don't tell you anything and they don't matter?

I'm saying because you've only got that one word to get in as much data as you can, you'd best make sure it doesn't require a dictionary (because it's common or just sounds neat) and is translation-friendly.


Why? I think it's good that these things have multiple titles to use.

I agree. I just don't like chernozem. It fulfills the "sounding cool" criterion (though somewhat childishly for my tastes), but it's not really something you can translate because it's already not in English. Actually, that logic doesn't make sense, but I still don't like it. :smalltongue:


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

No. It'd be like getting dental work done with a ball hammer, given our conversations in the past.

I have a heretical Charm that lets me feed on your aggravation. It tastes like sweet, sweet cotton candy. :smallwink:

[Andreaz]

You're not quite a vessel for the Yozis, but the ability to abandon pieces of yourself in order to become more like them is really the point. You are becoming something at once more and less than human. Infernals are becoming bigger and better than everyone but Alchemicals, and even moreso Alchemicals, they're ironically forced to humble themselves to do it.Is it really "the point"? Exalted is all about humanity, and all exalts are fundamentally human.

[Gensh]

Is it really "the point"? Exalted is all about humanity, and all exalts are fundamentally human.

It's a difficult thing to explain. I could, but then I would only be describing my own viewpoint of a topic as wide as the Yozis themselves. It's more something you feel intuitively, like defining the difference between artistic photography of sex and outright pornographic images.

To help understanding the first thing :smalltongue:, I can offer two sources:
1) Anderson in Hellsing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIqkFy6OyHk). *major spoiler* This brief clip won't necessarily be enough to explain everything, but it can give you an idea.
2) Play Dark Souls and really get into the story and the community. It rather faithfully replicates the Infernal experience. If you don't see it, then that's just as appropriate: not every Infernal sees it.

[Exthalion]

It's a difficult thing to explain. I could, but then I would only be describing my own viewpoint of a topic as wide as the Yozis themselves. It's more something you feel intuitively, like defining the difference between artistic photography of sex and outright pornographic images.

To help understanding the first thing :smalltongue:, I can offer two sources:
1) Anderson in Hellsing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIqkFy6OyHk). *major spoiler* This brief clip won't necessarily be enough to explain everything, but it can give you an idea.
2) Play Dark Souls and really get into the story and the community. It rather faithfully replicates the Infernal experience. If you don't see it, then that's just as appropriate: not every Infernal sees it.

I have to disagree with 2). Dark Souls strikes me as much closer to the Abyssal story. Consider: the main character is dead, your goal is to kill the Lord of Sunlight who defeated the primordial evils, and at the end the choice is between status quo and plunge the world into mortal, godless, darkness.

[TimeWizard]

So you hold that Infernals shouldn't be able to compete in combat(outside of one or two builds)? Or that Infernals should have something like 6 hardbacks for their one splat? Because that's what doing the cloud design seems to require.

*Sigh* look, if you're going to jump off the Slippery Slope, I can't stop you. I said I like the idea of them having a unique charm layout. I didn't say that I am in favor of them having the mechanical disadvantages of a rushed product. Yozi charms had a cool idea, which was that progress was based on certain themes rather than certain abilities, and it made a lot of sense for Infernals and really differentiated them as Exalts. I like the idea that a Malfeas charm enhances all attacks done in a certain way rather than archery attacks done any way. For example, Solars should excel at doing [SPECIFIC WEAPON], regardless of if they are brazen or hidden; while Infernals should excel as long as they are Hidden (TED) or Bold (Malfeas) regardless of their weapon.

[Gensh]

I have to disagree with 2). Dark Souls strikes me as much closer to the Abyssal story. Consider: the main character is dead, your goal is to kill the Lord of Sunlight who defeated the primordial evils, and at the end the choice is between status quo and plunge the world into mortal, godless, darkness.

See, you didn't catch it~ You fell for the red herring. Let's see if anyone else chimes in, and I'll explain my reasoning. :smallbiggrin:

This is of course ignoring that I have a Faffles character. :smalltongue:

[Exthalion]

See, you didn't catch it~ You fell for the red herring. Let's see if anyone else chimes in, and I'll explain my reasoning. :smallbiggrin:

This is of course ignoring that I have a Faffles character. :smalltongue:

I haven't played the game mind, but do you think you could be a tad less smug about think you are smarter than everyone else in the thread/player base? Your idea could well be correct, but right now it seems that you are implying other people lack the acumen to discern the correct interpretation of a game that encourages you to create your own view on events.

Or this could just be the internet's normal lack of non-verbal context.

[Tavar]

*Sigh* look, if you're going to jump off the Slippery Slope, I can't stop you. I said I like the idea of them having a unique charm layout. I didn't say that I am in favor of them having the mechanical disadvantages of a rushed product. Yozi charms had a cool idea, which was that progress was based on certain themes rather than certain abilities, and it made a lot of sense for Infernals and really differentiated them as Exalts. I like the idea that a Malfeas charm enhances all attacks done in a certain way rather than archery attacks done any way. For example, Solars should excel at doing [SPECIFIC WEAPON], regardless of if they are brazen or hidden; while Infernals should excel as long as they are Hidden (TED) or Bold (Malfeas) regardless of their weapon.
Their unique charm layout is what caused the problem in the first place! It's not a slippery slope to point out that, if you favor keeping something that caused a big problem by it's nature, that you might still have this problem.


I haven't played the game mind, but do you think you could be a tad less smug about think you are smarter than everyone else in the thread/player base? Your idea could well be correct, but right now it seems that you are implying other people lack the acumen to discern the correct interpretation of a game that encourages you to create your own view on events.

Or this could just be the internet's normal lack of non-verbal context.
So I'm not the only one....

[Rockphed]

*Sigh* look, if you're going to jump off the Slippery Slope, I can't stop you. I said I like the idea of them having a unique charm layout. I didn't say that I am in favor of them having the mechanical disadvantages of a rushed product. Yozi charms had a cool idea, which was that progress was based on certain themes rather than certain abilities, and it made a lot of sense for Infernals and really differentiated them as Exalts. I like the idea that a Malfeas charm enhances all attacks done in a certain way rather than archery attacks done any way. For example, Solars should excel at doing [SPECIFIC WEAPON], regardless of if they are brazen or hidden; while Infernals should excel as long as they are Hidden (TED) or Bold (Malfeas) regardless of their weapon.

Okay, so how do you make that happen without 6 books? How do you have a half dozen or so yozis giving charms to their infernals, without having to write up a charm tree for each? How do you allow an infernal who studies under Malfeas and an infernal who studies under The Ebon Dragon to go toe to toe with about the same number of charm buys? I agree that the idea sounds cool, but I don't see how you can implement it without either needing a horrific amount of material, or totally mangling the awesomeness you think you see.

Incidentally, this is why I am leery of people who go to devil tigers as proof that infernals are at all interesting. When the system is hard to write for professionals, hearing that the only way a group can be awesome is by writing new charms for them just proves that they are anything but awesome.

[HalfTangible]

See, you didn't catch it~ You fell for the red herring. Let's see if anyone else chimes in, and I'll explain my reasoning. :smallbiggrin:

This is of course ignoring that I have a Faffles character. :smalltongue:A 'Red herring' is a literary device used to intentionally mislead an audience.

I'm reminded of an xkcd comic and its moral... the basic idea being 'dont intentionally mislead people and then act smug and intelligent when they're mislead.' :smallannoyed: If you have something to say, say it. Please.

[Qwertystop]

I'd say one thing would be making a lot of Charms that are like Excellencies but with more varied effects. "Boosts engagement range when you are X", "conjure object related to X or useful for X", etcetera, where X is the Yozi's themes and just refers back to the Excellencies. A lot of things could be partially generalized like that, which would save on wordcount and work - they just insert the appropriate chassis-charm in the relevant portion of the charmtree, with maybe an extra line akin to the Sorcerous Initiations. Not every Yozi has to have one of each, but enough have similar enough abilities that it'd help - you just dissociate fluff from the charm and put it into the Excellency-type theming.

[Gensh]

I haven't played the game mind, but do you think you could be a tad less smug about think you are smarter than everyone else in the thread/player base? Your idea could well be correct, but right now it seems that you are implying other people lack the acumen to discern the correct interpretation of a game that encourages you to create your own view on events.

Or this could just be the internet's normal lack of non-verbal context.

If I use smilies, I'm doing it in good humor. I'd thought that you had played the game but hadn't found any of the secrets, so I was just going to tease you a little for that. My apologies then.

The point of Dark Souls is actually that the main plot is a red herring, much like the Reclamation. Well, honestly, I can't be sure about the Reclamation being a red herring in second edition, but it certainly should be, given the whole "can't escape" thing. In fact, Dark Souls is so full of red herrings, FROMsoft could open a fish market.

Spoilers ahoy~

So the game starts out quite a bit like normal. You see the backstory cutscene with clear (if somewhat dark) heroes and clear villains. Then, you find out that the undead are oppressed, and you start play in an asylum, where the guard throws you the key to your cell and walks off. All you have for guidance is the prophecy of the Chosen Undead.

Once you've fulfilled the prophecy and rang the two Bells of Awakening, you meet the Primordial Serpent, Kingseeker Frampt, who tells you that you are the chosen one who will succeed the Lord of Sunlight. If you play the game as any other game, then you go to the city of the gods, Anor Londo, and receive your task of filling a sacred artifact with the souls of the rogue Lords from the Princess of Sunlight. You then go on to retrieve the souls, enter the Forge of the First Flame, defeat the hollow Lord of Cinders, and reignite the First Flame to extend the Age of Fire.

At the cost of your life.

The entire game, you had been deceived. All those souls of lost undead that you had found on your way are previous "Chosen Undead" - after all, only one with the sacred Lordvessel could enter those places. You did succeed the Lord of Sunlight, but only in dying to preserve a status quo where humans are treated as cattle or worse. Frampt told the truth, but he did not tell you what it meant. Even the Princess of Sunlight was nothing but an illusion. To collect the Lord Souls, you were forced to commit outright murder on several occasions, and depending on you personally, you might have done so a few more times in order to make the game easier. Every act of PVP is a murder as well.

If by chance, you avoided speaking with Frampt, then when you collect the collective soul of the Four Kings, the Primordial Serpent, Darkstalker Kaathe, approaches you instead. He outright admits that there were others before you. Unlike Frampt, he wants you to collect the Lord Souls solely to kill the Lord of Cinders and bring in the Age of Dark as the Lord of Humanity. But in order to do so, he gives you tools of murder and tells you to kill your fellows to preserve your own humanity and prevent other Chosen Undead from succeeding.

Even despite this, it seems that allowing nature to take its course as Kaathe suggests is better than enforcing an unnatural and cruel status quo. In fact, once you slay the Lord of Cinders, Frampt actually swears to serve you alongside Kaathe.

Except they're both omitting something again.

In the expansion, you travel back in time to fight the forebear of humanity, a horrifying mutant whose very presence has opened up the Abyss to blight the land and warp the inhabitants into violent monsters. This is the legacy you will inherit as the Dark Lord, and you will one day become a mindless creature like your predecessor, the hunting dog of the Primordial Serpents.

No matter what you do, you are damned. If you play the heroic knight, you are incinerated body and soul to fuel the Dark Sun Gwyndolin's tyrannical regime for a few hundred years more, before he has Frampt send another patsy on the quest. If you play the insane murderer, you are allowed to watch as both the world and your own body rapidly deteriorate into a horrifying mass of ichor-oozing flesh as you are reduced to a creature of mindless violence.

These are what happens to both a loyalist and a rebel who do not destroy or reform the Yozis. The loyalist is used until he can be used no more and is cast aside; the rebel is allowed to have his fun playing king until he falls fully into his patron's power as the outcome of his own decisions.

In the meantime, he is left with a grand number of decisions. Will he slay his fellows in order to keep his humanity in the land of undead? Will he help those he encounters along the way, or is he too absorbed in his delusional questing to even find them? Will he make up for his mistakes, even if it requires him to become a murderer? Will he kill a hero for revenge? Does he delight in all these things because he knows there are no consequences for him in the end? Even if you wish to support the Flame, will the temptation of Dark Sorcery be too much?

He must define his own "greater good" and decide what he is willing to give up. And also how much the player is willing to cheat to save the lives of the rare few characters who are actually good people. :smallamused:



A 'Red herring' is a literary device used to intentionally mislead an audience.

I'm reminded of an xkcd comic and its moral... the basic idea being 'dont intentionally mislead people and then act smug and intelligent when they're mislead.' :smallannoyed: If you have something to say, say it. Please.

The point of Dark Souls is to subvert the traditional RPG story structure and make fun of the culture that accepts genre conventions regardless of how terrible. Someone who barrels through the game like any other isn't going to have much fun because it's honestly not that good a game, and the story is exceedingly sparse. It's like Shadow of the Colossus in that aspect. It doesn't tell you anything; everything depends on the player's awareness.

As I said, I'd thought Exthalion had played the game and thus had earned a little teasing, much like if he had beaten the game and then complained about being killed by the boulder trap.

[TimeWizard]

A 'Red herring' is a literary device used to intentionally mislead an audience.

I'm reminded of an xkcd comic and its moral... the basic idea being 'dont intentionally mislead people and then act smug and intelligent when they're mislead.' :smallannoyed: If you have something to say, say it. Please.

I hope we learned something. (http://xkcd.com/169/) Seriously, do not expect people to know the intricacies of a game at random and deride those who do not. It's somewhat uncouth.

[Gensh]

I hope we learned something. (http://xkcd.com/169/) Seriously, do not expect people to know the intricacies of a game at random and deride those who do not. It's somewhat uncouth.

I didn't. I recommended a game as inspiration. Exthalion commented on it. I assumed he had played it and was giving him some good-natured ribbing for not noticing certain obvious parallels. Chillax.

[The_Snark]

The point of Dark Souls is actually that the main plot is a red herring, much like the Reclamation. Well, honestly, I can't be sure about the Reclamation being a red herring in second edition, but it certainly should be, given the whole "can't escape" thing.

I seem to recall that there was some debate over this. In 1st edition, the Reclamation was explicitly futile; but when MoEP: Infernals was written for 2nd, some of the authors took issue with the idea that you have Exalted working on a project that simply can't be done. So we end up with the "Chances of Success" passage in Chapter 7 of the Infernals book, which waffles and says it might or might not be doable depending on your ST's whims, and then books like Return of the Scarlet Empress, which assume that yes it's totally possible for the Yozis to be freed.

So I think calling the Reclamation a red herring implies a more coherent vision than the writers actually had at that point in the game line. But you can decide it's a red herring in your games, certainly. I think it'd make an interesting story, although it's narrow enough that I can see why the current writers don't want to focus on it quite so much.

[Gensh]

I seem to recall that there was some debate over this. In 1st edition, the Reclamation was explicitly futile; but when MoEP: Infernals was written for 2nd, some of the authors took issue with the idea that you have Exalted working on a project that simply can't be done. So we end up with the "Chances of Success" passage in Chapter 7 of the Infernals book, which waffles and says it might or might not be doable depending on your ST's whims, and then books like Return of the Scarlet Empress, which assume that yes it's totally possible for the Yozis to be freed.

So I think calling the Reclamation a red herring implies a more coherent vision than the writers actually had at that point in the game line. But you can decide it's a red herring in your games, certainly. I think it'd make an interesting story, although it's narrow enough that I can see why the current writers don't want to focus on it quite so much.

Aye, if I remember correctly, Neph was advocating player primacy. It's a tricky subject; if you explicitly let the PCs break rule X, how long until the forum is full of players talking about breaking rule Y? Generally speaking, I assume that it's impossible unless the party actually wants to do that - and hey, it's their funeral.

This is to say nothing of plans of rehabilitating the Yozis or summoning Malfeas to possess a giant mecha. :smallwink:

[HalfTangible]

I seem to recall that there was some debate over this. In 1st edition, the Reclamation was explicitly futile; but when MoEP: Infernals was written for 2nd, some of the authors took issue with the idea that you have Exalted working on a project that simply can't be done. So we end up with the "Chances of Success" passage in Chapter 7 of the Infernals book, which waffles and says it might or might not be doable depending on your ST's whims, and then books like Return of the Scarlet Empress, which assume that yes it's totally possible for the Yozis to be freed.

So I think calling the Reclamation a red herring implies a more coherent vision than the writers actually had at that point in the game line. But you can decide it's a red herring in your games, certainly. I think it'd make an interesting story, although it's narrow enough that I can see why the current writers don't want to focus on it quite so much.

What little I've heard of Exalted suggests that the Reclamation is a 'too-good-to-be-true' scenario: technically possible, but so highly unlikely that the Yozis likely have a different plan in mind =/ One theory i like is that the Infernal exalted exist to make Creation a nightmarish hellscape similar enough to Malfeas that the Yozis can bend the rules of reality just enough for long enough to get out.

No idea how (contiguous?) with the lore it is, but i like it.

[Gensh]

What little I've heard of Exalted suggests that the Reclamation is a 'too-good-to-be-true' scenario: technically possible, but so highly unlikely that the Yozis likely have a different plan in mind =/ One theory i like is that the Infernal exalted exist to make Creation a nightmarish hellscape similar enough to Malfeas that the Yozis can bend the rules of reality just enough for long enough to get out.

No idea how (contiguous?) with the lore it is, but i like it.

How the Reclamation works is...rather suspect. I can see why it might have been overlooked in the Surrender Oaths, but it's still a little odd. The terraforming plan you mentioned is what most of the Yozis assume is the surest way to get into Creation, but even then, it's not a definite thing. Cytherea is apparently doing something different with geomancy, but the point of Cytherea is that nobody knows anything about Cytherea, so...

[Exthalion]

Wasn't the dark side of the moon also a giant portal?

[HerrTenko]

The Kickstarter is officially over. Now we play the waiting game.

To be precise, the Kickstarter is now officially over, with $684755 pledged, 4368 backers, for an average amount of $156,77 pledged per backer.

[The Rose Dragon]

Dammit I forgot to withdraw my pledge.

Ah we'll, at least I get my name in the book, and don't have to wait to get the funds for book when it comes out. And some more stuff that all the backers get.

[Lochar]

To be precise, the Kickstarter is now officially over, with $684755 pledged, 4368 backers, for an average amount of $156,77 pledged per backer.

I hate the differences in measurements. One hundred fifty six dollar and seventy-seven cents.

I read that at first as a misplaced comma on fifteen thousand, six hundred and seventy seven dollar.

[Juhn]

The fact that their are firm 'destroy the world' factions and no ' protect the world' factions also serves to make anyone who isn't team evil look a little petty.

Isn't this the explicit purpose of Lunar Exalted? "Stewards of Creation", protect the world from that which would destroy it, etc.?

[Lix Lorn]

and then books like Return of the Scarlet Empress, which assume that yes it's totally possible for the Yozis to be freed.
Nitpick!
RotSE assumes it's possible for the Ebon Dragon to be freed, but pretty much laughs at the idea of the rest of them getting out.


Isn't this the explicit purpose of Lunar Exalted? "Stewards of Creation", protect the world from that which would destroy it, etc.?
Yes, but no-one cares about Lunars because they suck, unless they're talking about how they suck, in which case EVERYONE is furious about it.

[The Rose Dragon]

Nitpick!
RotSE assumes it's possible for the Ebon Dragon to be freed, but pretty much laughs at the idea of the rest of them getting out.

Technically, Ebon Dragon could get all of them out if he modified his plans, since what's good for one Yozi is good for another. It's just that not screwing others over is anathema to him, so he never intended to help the others in the first place.

((One of the things I hope that gets altered in Third Edition, so while he is still dislikable, he is not as two dimensional.))

EDIT: The St tag for firearms really bugs me. Not only is it inefficient for any purpose other than using Extra Action Charms, but it both ignores how fast actual automatic weapons can fire (in six ticks, a heavy machine gun can fire a whooping seven bullets, which is a rate of fire equivalent to semi-automatics), why they can't maintain that rate indefinitely, and actual uses of strafing, such as suppression. That shotguns also have the St tag when loaded with shot, when actual shot is unlikely to actually hit three targets five yards away from each other at given ranges, is another concern.

Has anyone come up with a better replacement for the tag to simulate automatic fire and shot, or does it work better in practice?

[Turalisj]

Maybe Exalted isn't meant to simulate real life physics?

[Kobold-Bard]

Eh, Kobold-Bard?

NEW THREAD (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286904)


To be precise, the Kickstarter is now officially over, with $684755 pledged, 4368 backers, for an average amount of $156,77 pledged per backer.

Well....that's annoying. My bad.

[TimeWizard]

So, I was trying to discern the origins of the word Yozi, and it turns out that it is also the name of a map program for Android. There's got to be something to that.

Anyway, is Yozi just a made-up word? Most of Exalted's lexicon is of needlessly specific archaic words, but I don't know of many that are wholly fictional. Is it fictional or from a foreign language?

[Mr.Bookworm]

Anyway, is Yozi just a made-up word? Most of Exalted's lexicon is of needlessly specific archaic words, but I don't know of many that are wholly fictional. Is it fictional or from a foreign language?


But as the gods slept, there came from beyond the Rim, out of the dark and unknown, three Yozis, spirits of ill, that sailed up the river of Silence in galleons with silver sails. Far away they had seen Yum and Gothum, the stars that stand sentinel over Pegāna's gate, blinking and falling asleep, and as they neared Pegāna they found a hush wherein the gods slept heavily. Ya, Ha, and Snyrg were these three Yozis, the lords of evil, madness, and of spite. When they crept from their galleons and stole over Pegāna's silent threshold it boded ill for the gods.

Dunsany influenced a lot of Exalted's mythology. You can find most of his writings here (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:Edward_Plunkett).

EDIT:
So, I was trying to discern the origins of the word Yozi, and it turns out that it is also the name of a map program for Android. There's got to be something to that.

A Google search suggests that it's from Ozi Explorer, a GPS thing.

[TimeWizard]

Rad. Thanks for that. Just to be clear, Dunsay invented the word, though, right?

[Exthalion]

Rad. Thanks for that. Just to be clear, Dunsay invented the word, though, right?

It is apparently a word in Malay.

[The Rose Dragon]

Maybe Exalted isn't meant to simulate real life physics?

Three problems:

1) Conventional firearms are written specifically for Exalted: the Modern Age, which mimics real life physics to the point where you can build nuclear reactors and is stated to have the same superficial elements as our world for those who don't know about the major magical elements.

2) They specifically used real life weapon classifications and modeled their descriptions after real life weapons. That creates certain expectations, just like swords are expected to be edged weapons and bows are expected to shoot arrows.

3) It is not a matter of physics, but a matter of tactics. Even if the gun fires bullets through the rage of war spirits encouraging the least gods of the bullets to leave the barrel as quickly and violently as possible rather than the combustion of gunpowder, when I get a machine gun, I expect it to act like a machine gun, not a semi-automatic. If it doesn't, something needs to fill that niche.

[horngeek]

Overall, it works as a game mechanic, giving them less shots at higher accuracy, instead of trying to roll more dice than you already are. Warhammer 40K does much the same thing.

[The Rose Dragon]

Still, the lack of suppression fire (without Charms or house rules, at least) and grenades makes it look like denial of movement and cover is not a valid tactic in Exalted: the Modern Age, or exists only in abstract levels of fighting, such as mass combat. Which is kind of weird for a combat system that places such importance on mobility.

[Edge]

Still, the lack of suppression fire (without Charms or house rules, at least) and grenades makes it look like denial of movement and cover is not a valid tactic in Exalted: the Modern Age, or exists only in abstract levels of fighting, such as mass combat. Which is kind of weird for a combat system that places such importance on mobility.

Suppression fire and grenades are less valid tactics when enemies can parry bullets and shrug off grenades.

Or rather, they don't really function as area denial as much as they do just another form of mote-tapping.

[The Rose Dragon]

Suppression fire and grenades are less valid tactics when enemies can parry bullets and shrug off grenades.

Or rather, they don't really function as area denial as much as they do just another form of mote-tapping.

Most combat in Exalted takes place between mortals. Yes, against Exalted, many tactics don't work, but that's why Charms exist. Charms break the rules. I still expect the rules to work when Charms aren't involved.

[Rockphed]

And if your enemies cannot try to suppress you, then you do not get to be awesome by screwing up their suppression attempts.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So I've been reading through Shards again, and Temujin in Heaven's Reach made me think: what if Heaven's Reach Swillin made the Zerg?

I also came up with an artifact fighter craft built with low maintenance in mind (probably designed by a Long Warrior or a frontier Twilight). Basically a stripped down Voidfighter (that is, no relay or resonance engine, but essence engines and life support are still there) with Repair 1, a lesser hearthstone requirement, and the ability to expend essence to power the ship temporarily in place of the hearthstone. Weapons are one long-range essence cannon, and an artifact missile pod (as Dragon's Roar Cannon).

[horngeek]

Speaking of Shards, I'm retreading my question: from what we've seen so far, how difficult do you guys think it'll be to adapt the Shards (I'm focusing on mechanical stuff, because the Shards are drastically different from canon anyway) to 3e?

(On a somewhat related note, I want to play in a game of Heaven's Reach, The Modern Age, or First Age... dun actually care which, now I think of it)

[Leliel]

Likewise with the Law of Diminishment. It was already impossibly hard to restore something once lost. In some cases, it was downright impossible due to not having the same sort of resources as a Primordial, let alone the Primordial Host as a united whole. With all the complaints about the Three Spheres Cataclysm erasing whole chunks of Creation, never to return, I'm extremely disappointed in that there isn't an outright uproar about something harebrained as an explicit setting rule stating that things cannot be redone. Sure, rule zero is a thing, but that could be applied to anything.

You and everyone else got the LoD entirely backwards.

Choosing to embrace the Law is an act of incredible self-sacrifice. You accept the painful loss of some of your own power to build something that will last beyond you. Like a seed, the created thing is entirely independent of you afterwards, and may-probably-grow greater than you at your peak. That's why Exigence exists-a god gives of himself to create something greater than he. Such as it was with Ten Sheaves and Janest-he could not save the field, so he committed seppuku to elevate her into someone who is more-or-less invincible when in the field.

The Bronze Faction chose to ignore the Law, and as a result, all of Creation apart from them suffered. If they had chosen to accept judgement for their crimes, who knows? Maybe the Shogunate would have survived and become stable.

Word of Holden.

[The Rose Dragon]

The weapon stats will probably be easy. The Solar (and Abyssal) Charms mostly have equivalents in Age of Sorrows Charms, so if those are preserved in Third Edition, you can probably tinker with them and get to a nice balance with some trial and error. The ones that are not would be more problematic, as are the ones that are not immediately tied to physical combat. The biggest problem in guns might be the St tag, which relies on Rate that probably won't exist in the same form in Third Edition.

[Recaiden]

So I've been reading through Shards again, and Temujin in Heaven's Reach made me think: what if Heaven's Reach Swillin made the Zerg?

She would be really annoyed by this Kerrigan thing.


I also came up with an artifact fighter craft built with low maintenance in mind (probably designed by a Long Warrior or a frontier Twilight). Basically a stripped down Voidfighter (that is, no relay or resonance engine, but essence engines and life support are still there) with Repair 1, a lesser hearthstone requirement, and the ability to expend essence to power the ship temporarily in place of the hearthstone. Weapons are one long-range essence cannon, and an artifact missile pod (as Dragon's Roar Cannon).

I like it. How does it compare to other artifact vehicles though? It might be too strong.

[Tavar]

(On a somewhat related note, I want to play in a game of Heaven's Reach, The Modern Age, or First Age... dun actually care which, now I think of it)
If I wasn't doing a newbie game, I'd probably be doing my Matrix/(PacificRim/Evagellion)/PostModern setting game.

[Andreaz]

I also came up with an artifact fighter craft built with low maintenance in mind (probably designed by a Long Warrior or a frontier Twilight). Basically a stripped down Voidfighter (that is, no relay or resonance engine, but essence engines and life support are still there) with Repair 1, a lesser hearthstone requirement, and the ability to expend essence to power the ship temporarily in place of the hearthstone. Weapons are one long-range essence cannon, and an artifact missile pod (as Dragon's Roar Cannon).Setting-Wise, requiring a hearthstone of any sort already makes for expensive, elite material. Easier to fix, yes, but still requiring a rare resource.

[SaurOps]

Still, the lack of suppression fire (without Charms or house rules, at least) and grenades makes it look like denial of movement and cover is not a valid tactic in Exalted: the Modern Age, or exists only in abstract levels of fighting, such as mass combat. Which is kind of weird for a combat system that places such importance on mobility.

The rules for suppression fire are in Aberrant. It's a WW thing.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Isn't it simpler to use "supression fire" as an Feint equivalent that penalizes moving out of cover ?

[Hiro Protagonest]

I like it. How does it compare to other artifact vehicles though? It might be too strong.

I was a little fuzzy on the details when I wrote that.

My exact ideas are: no resonance engine, relay (although it'll have a radio transmitter or whatever they use for comms in HR), or god-machine grid. Repair value 1. Requires hearthstone of level 2+ (maybe 3+?) to run indefinitely, but can be powered for one hour by expending five motes of essence into it as a miscellaneous action, up to five hours can be stored at a time and they dissipate after a week of storage. Two artifact missile pods under the wings (as Dragon's Roar Cannon, damage 24L/4, ammo 6 per pod), one long-range essence cannon coming out from the central hull (see Voidfighter). Artifact 4. Was also thinking of boosting the speed to at least 110/220 to give it flight capabilities in a planetary atmosphere, although giving it vertical thruster would also work, and I would probably give +1 maneuverability (total +4) for the extra movement options granted by that.

This isn't some plane designed to be an easier-to-manage Star Asp (although I could make that too). This is a design that's expensive, but ultimately tries to make a balance between power and survival. It could've been designed near or shortly after the end of the Solar Dynasties for the vigil by the Long Warriors, a piece of equipment that could dock in a frigate once a day and receive a tune-up, and stay in top form to fight whatever lurked beyond the Known Worlds.

[SaurOps]

Isn't it simpler to use "supression fire" as an Feint equivalent that penalizes moving out of cover ?

If you have Scroll of Kings, yes.

[TimeWizard]

This might have been covered, but two questions:

A) Is there a central location for all online the Kickstarter backer rewards without slogging through the updates?

B) Are Exigents such as Janest only Exalted when they stay in the domain of their god (such as Janest's valley), or are they free to roam in service to their patrons will?

[horngeek]

B) Are Exigents such as Janest only Exalted when they stay in the domain of their god (such as Janest's valley), or are they free to roam in service to their patrons will?

I'm guessing the latter, or roam in service to their own will. Part of the risk of Exaltation, after all, has always been that the newly-Exalted would decide to do their own thing or even actively work against the source of their power.

[Tavar]

In the That Strawmaiden... thread over on White Wolf, one of the developers mentioned that Janest was more powerful on her own fields, but that she was not powerless elsewhere.

Of course, one's not as tied to geographical domains would likely not receive the power boost(and in return, not be a bit weaker elsewhere).

[Mewtarthio]

A) Is there a central location for all online the Kickstarter backer rewards without slogging through the updates?

Dragon-Blooded preview (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-exalted-3rd-edition/posts/501590)
Infernal preview (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-exalted-3rd-edition/posts/485979)
Abyssal preview (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-exalted-3rd-edition/posts/492459)
Liminal preview (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-exalted-3rd-edition/posts/495001)


B) Are Exigents such as Janest only Exalted when they stay in the domain of their god (such as Janest's valley), or are they free to roam in service to their patrons will?

They may be stretching the definition of Exaltation in 3e, but one thing that has always been an uncompromising rule, right up there with "no time travel" and "no resurrections," is "nothing short of death can separate you from your Exaltation." Janest may not be as strong when she's not in her fields, but, regardless of where she is, she will always be the Strawmaiden until the day she dies.

[TimeWizard]

"no time travel"

With Getimians, whom I understand to be the Time Exalted, and stand opposite the Fate Exalted Sidereal might break that rule, or at least bend it with time-charm shenanigans. I can imagine them getting charms that let them roll to aid themselves in the future, and get Spidey-Sense, etc...

[Leliel]

With Getimians, whom I understand to be the Time Exalted, and stand opposite the Fate Exalted Sidereal might break that rule, or at least bend it with time-charm shenanigans. I can imagine them getting charms that let them roll to aid themselves in the future, and get Spidey-Sense, etc...

Many of their Charms involve using their internal Loom to switch causality on and off, what I heard. Thus they can switch off gravity to toss people into the sky and switch off distance to teleport.

Probably a lot of time slow and speed powers contained in that thematic.

[Tavar]

With Getimians, whom I understand to be the Time Exalted, and stand opposite the Fate Exalted Sidereal might break that rule, or at least bend it with time-charm shenanigans. I can imagine them getting charms that let them roll to aid themselves in the future, and get Spidey-Sense, etc...

The more 'formal' stating of the rule shows why this isn't a problem. It's actually that Actions have consequences, no takebacks.

This is why there is not Time Travel, Resurrection, or losing of Exaltation. The things those actions would undo are supposed to be major, and so you just can't undo them.

[Lord Raziere]

….but doesn't seem kind of arbitrary? you can still heal people in Exalted if they don't die, meaning you can undo wounds and disease…..and there is a certain Solar charm that makes a mortal young again so old age can be undone….

meaning actions only have consequences if you kill people or Exalt?

[Leliel]

….but doesn't seem kind of arbitrary? you can still heal people in Exalted if they don't die, meaning you can undo wounds and disease…..and there is a certain Solar charm that makes a mortal young again so old age can be undone….

meaning actions only have consequences if you kill people or Exalt?

Actually, no.

You didn't actually perform those actions that lead to wounding or old age.

You did, however, perform the actions of fixing someone or giving him youth. That's the actual action.

It might lead to really good things down the line, as the formerly plague-ridden hamlet chooses you as their new leader, or the guy who you gave youth to uses his newfound vigor to perform a deed worthy Exaltation himself, but those are still consequences.

Also, if the guy you critically wounded was saved from Saturn's scissors by your nemesis, that leads to a consequence too!

[Guancyto]

There are no backsies.

Meaning that it's in-theme if you bring someone back to life in a manner that irrevocably changes them (they already have a bit of that with a nemissary possessing its own corpse; autocthonian resurrectionists comes to mind).

Or if your time travel/chronovoyance can't actually change events that have affected you (a la lots of new doctor who when it isn't being written by steven moffat), or if knowing the future locks your actions into that path (golden path/maidens with samsara).

Or if your removal of Exaltation leaves something that cannot be mistaken for the pre-exaltation human (exalted becoming deathlords is a threefer for resurrection/removing exaltation/putting it back).

It's both overly dogmatic and incorrect to say that time travel and resurrection always violate the "no backsies" rule, when all you need is for them to end really badly when tried.

It's like Fullmetal Alchemist. There's technically a resurrection of the Elric brothers' mom out there, it's just that 1) it cost them horribly 2) the result isn't properly their mother and 3) the result isn't human either. There's also technically a resurrection of Alphonse Elric but the same three caveats apply.

I personally find that whole sequence to be perfectly in line with Exalted.

[Lord Raziere]

yes but you can break a guy's leg and then heal the guys leg if you are good at both.

and if the guy hates you for it, you can always use super-persuasion to make them not hate you anymore.

so….how is that not undoing what you just did?

[Recaiden]

yes but you can break a guy's leg and then heal the guys leg if you are good at both.

and if the guy hates you for it, you can always use super-persuasion to make them not hate you anymore.

so….how is that not undoing what you just did?

Those are things you can undo in reality.

The rule is not "Nothing can be undone" but something like "Grand, important actions can't be taken back."

[Andreaz]

Those are things you can undo in reality.

The rule is not "Nothing can be undone" but something like "Grand, important actions can't be taken back."

Adding to that: Even though you undid the damage from your actions, you did not undo your actions. It remains an undeniable bit of your and your subject's history that it happened.

[The_Snark]

….but doesn't seem kind of arbitrary?

I wouldn't say it's arbitrary. Yes, some consequences can be undone - you can break down a door and then use Craft Charms to repair it, for instance. The authors chose to draw a line about what things can't be undone. But they didn't pick that line arbitrarily; they did so because they felt resurrection, time travel, and the removal/destruction of Exaltations would be bad for the setting they wanted to create.

[Kyeudo]

Those are things you can undo in reality.

The rule is not "Nothing can be undone" but something like "Grand, important actions can't be taken back."

It's more like "You can't make the consequences of your actions magically vanish". You have to do the hard work of actually repairing the repairable and you have to live with the unfixable.

That guy whose leg you broke then fixed? He still remembers you breaking his leg and you had to actually exert yourself to fix his leg. You spent time, effort, and motes to get it done. Your mind mojo will eventually wear off or might never take hold. You get NO GUARANTEES that you can fix it.

In D&D, death is cheap. It costs 10 grand to be back alive. High level characters are each packing half a million in cash and equipment. Dying is a speed bump unless it's the party cleric that bit the dust and then it's a road trip to find another cleric. Good luck assassinating anyone important or rich.

In Exalted, death means something. It is the power that won't be denied, the inevitable that even Solars cannot fight. It is the dark and terrifying gate through which all souls will pass.

[Lord Raziere]

Those are things you can undo in reality.

The rule is not "Nothing can be undone" but something like "Grand, important actions can't be taken back."

………..

can't find a way to question that, so….touche I guess.

[TheCountAlucard]

Another Example: the Usurpation can't be undone. The world has been lessened by the removal of so much, and its wonders crumble.

The greatest hope is that the upcoming Third Age will rise to even loftier heights, but even if it does, the First Age is over, and even if it's better, the Third is different.

[Guancyto]

I should add that although time travel is okay if you can't change the shape of the past, they will never (or should never) put it in any book because if they make a charm or spell or artifact or even plot device that involves time travel, this is exactly what people will want to do with it.

Even if you as a writer think it would be tremendously cool to go to 1940 London and run away from the empty child (and indeed it would be), every group has some cockup who thinks it's a good idea to go avert her father's death (which has in many ways shaped her life) instead.

Horrible, consequence-ridden resurrection could probably use some love, though. Barred Tomb (brings a dude back for an hour but has no real side effects, and explicitly says that it's the best resurrection magic) is just uninteresting.

[Rockphed]

Another Example: the Usurpation can't be undone. The world has been lessened by the removal of so much, and its wonders crumble.

The greatest hope is that the upcoming Third Age will rise to even loftier heights, but even if it does, the First Age is over, and even if it's better, the Third is different.

There will never again be a world where the heroes who threw down the undefeatable titans who created the world rule benevolently over the world. There will also never be a world where the kings of creation are so sure of their invincibility that they treat their servants as experiments and property.

[horngeek]

Horrible, consequence-ridden resurrection could probably use some love, though. Barred Tomb (brings a dude back for an hour but has no real side effects, and explicitly says that it's the best resurrection magic) is just uninteresting.

I'm excited about Liminals precisely because of the potential for this. :smallbiggrin:

[Sith_Happens]

I'm excited about Liminals precisely because of the potential for this. :smallbiggrin:

From what I've read, Liminals pretty much sound like FMA (2003) homunculi.

[Turalisj]

From what I've read, Liminals pretty much sound like FMA (2003) homunculi.

So... Prometheans then.

[The_Snark]

I should add that although time travel is okay if you can't change the shape of the past, they will never (or should never) put it in any book because if they make a charm or spell or artifact or even plot device that involves time travel, this is exactly what people will want to do with it.

Even if you as a writer think it would be tremendously cool to go to 1940 London and run away from the empty child (and indeed it would be), every group has some cockup who thinks it's a good idea to go avert her father's death (which has in many ways shaped her life) instead.

Addendum: if you want to play an unusual game in which time travel is the premise, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Ignore that limitation completely, and have fun meddling with the past, watching your well-meant actions go awry, and then going back again (and again, and again) to fix your mistakes. Or battle the Last Unknown Primordial across all of history to stop it from unmaking humanity and the Incarnae at the source. Open the can of paradoxical worms that is time travel.

But in the standard setting, yeah, that needs to remain impossible. The ramifications on the setting are too severe.

[Turalisj]

Or battle the Last Unknown Primordial across all of history to stop it from unmaking humanity and the Incarnae at the source.

And now I have my first 3e game idea: Exalted Chrono Crusade.

[Sith_Happens]

Addendum: if you want to play an unusual game in which time travel is the premise, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Ignore that limitation completely, and have fun meddling with the past, watching your well-meant actions go awry, and then going back again (and again, and again) to fix your mistakes. Or battle the Last Unknown Primordial across all of history to stop it from unmaking humanity and the Incarnae at the source. Open the can of paradoxical worms that is time travel.

But in the standard setting, yeah, that needs to remain impossible. The ramifications on the setting are too severe.

...And now I'm suddenly imagining the Primordial War as the Time War from Doctor Who. And I want to play it.

[HalfTangible]

...And now I'm suddenly imagining the Primordial War as the Time War from Doctor Who. And I want to play it.

"Hail to Haht'hek, the Dragon of Time, who turns the seasons, who drives the wheel of Ages! Hail to him whose coils are the spiral of both growth and decay!"

"Bow before She Who Lives In Her Name, the Principle of Hierarchy! Bend knee to the Mother of Separation, the definition of definition, Child of Oramus' Promise!!"

"Behold Pluto, the Maiden of Hours, who comforts the Dragon of Time! Praise to the goddess that measures the days!"

"Tremble, to the moment of turning, the end of what should have been, the time of never-starting. She Who Lives In Her Name feels the first touch of the green light of shame and the bonds of self-loathing, closing to tie her to her failure and despair! In her final rage, betrayed, she betrays herself and breaks her bones to release the fires within. An inferno is released, to burn the world to the moment of its birth, and undo all that had undone the Titans themselves!"

"Weep, for the Dragon of Time, who loves the world such that his every soul is wracked with grief! Weep for the Maiden of Hours, for whose cries of pain and terror, he tears his heart asunder! The blood of his life spills to quench the flames that burn creation. With his last strength, he curls himself about the existence that remains once-made, and turns his body to a wall against the fire. His scales are seared; his last breath, torn by smoke. His tears are boiled to naught. He dies to save what is, and aches for that which now shall never have been remembered."

"He is dead."

-Jukashi, Lunar Quest

Haht'hek is now a healing soul. Just so we can call him the Doctor.

EDIT: Actually... this works from the Doctor Who side, too.

"And now all of it's coming through, not just the Daleks but the Skaros dedgrations, the Nightmare Child, the could've been king with his army of meanwhiles and never-weres! The war turned into hell!"


There will also never be a world where the kings of creation are so sure of their invincibility that they treat their servants as experiments and property.

With the great curse still in place, this might happen anyway. Heck, as i recall, the First Age first went downhill when a solar died of old age for the first time.

[Guancyto]

With the great curse still in place, this might happen anyway. Heck, as i recall, the First Age first went downhill when a solar died of old age for the first time.

That was indicative of the same kind of thinking that got them into trouble later. 'Old age' suddenly became something that could threaten Solars, and they kind of went nuts over it. In the end it was getting pretty close to a solved problem.

But you can't un-ring the bell. Dragon-Bloods rising up and murdering all the Solars at the height of their power is now a thing, and no matter how full of themselves the golden boys of the Third Age get, that will never stop being a thing.

They might demonstrate that they've learned nothing and decide to murder all the Dragon-Bloods instead, but keeping them all as pets and experiments? Never again.

They might build a million million utterly loyal automatons to keep them safe and in charge, but the kind of thinking of the First Age where only other Solars mattered and only Solars could threaten them? Never again.

They might construct ten thousand protoshinmaic vortices that will all explode if they're ever shut away in a box again, but the idea that everything will collapse without Solars at the helm?

Never. Again.

More than the (decidedly temporary) death of all the Solar Exalted, the Usurpation was the death of an idea, the idea of Solar supremacy. You can't go back to that world. Not even if you kill all the other Exalted.

[HalfTangible]

That was indicative of the same kind of thinking that got them into trouble later. 'Old age' suddenly became something that could threaten Solars, and they kind of went nuts over it. In the end it was getting pretty close to a solved problem.

But you can't un-ring the bell. Dragon-Bloods rising up and murdering all the Solars at the height of their power is now a thing, and no matter how full of themselves the golden boys of the Third Age get, that will never stop being a thing.

They might demonstrate that they've learned nothing and decide to murder all the Dragon-Bloods instead, but keeping them all as pets and experiments? Never again.

They might build a million million utterly loyal automatons to keep them safe and in charge, but the kind of thinking of the First Age where only other Solars mattered and only Solars could threaten them? Never again.

They might construct ten thousand protoshinmaic vortices that will all explode if they're ever shut away in a box again, but the idea that everything will collapse without Solars at the helm?

Never. Again.

More than the (decidedly temporary) death of all the Solar Exalted, the Usurpation was the death of an idea, the idea of Solar supremacy. You can't go back to that world. Not even if you kill all the other Exalted.

Human nature and history suggest otherwise. We tend to repeat our mistakes, over and over again. I won't delve into real-world examples, but let's take a look at Exalted, shall we?

In Creation, the Titans created the gods and treated them and mortals as playthings because "they're superior". The gods (sort of) overthrew them. The Solars built an empire and treated its citizens as playthings because "they're superior". The Sidereals (sort of) overthrew them. And now the DB see themselves as the superior beings.

History is cyclical, as they say, and the Great Curse only exacerbates it.

[The Rose Dragon]

I don't think the idea of Solar supremacy died for anyone but Solars, who were so assured of their invincibility, even individually. That is why the Solar Deliberative was a fractured mess, and that is why Solars fell so easily. To everyone else, a united Solar Host is still a nightmare to behold. The only problem is actually uniting 300 Solars who have every reason to distrust and dislike one another as a check on their divine right to exercise their own power.

[Morty]

Human nature and history suggest otherwise. We tend to repeat our mistakes, over and over again. I won't delve into real-world examples, but let's take a look at Exalted, shall we?

In Creation, the Titans created the gods and treated them and mortals as playthings because "they're superior". The gods (sort of) overthrew them. The Solars built an empire and treated its citizens as playthings because "they're superior". The Sidereals (sort of) overthrew them. And now the DB see themselves as the superior beings.

History is cyclical, as they say, and the Great Curse only exacerbates it.

But the nature of the supremacy diminishes with each iteration. First, it was the titans who lorded it over gods and their creations. Then the Solars ruled supreme over the other Exalted and mortals. And now the Dragon-Blooded rule supreme (mostly) over mortals... but not all of them. The pattern is similar, but it's not the same.

[Berdium]

yes but you can break a guy's leg and then heal the guys leg if you are good at both.

and if the guy hates you for it, you can always use super-persuasion to make them not hate you anymore.

so….how is that not undoing what you just did?

Easy. Some locals witnessed your wanton acts of fighting, healing, and mind control, got spooked, and called a Wyld Hunt.

[Leliel]

But the nature of the supremacy diminishes with each iteration. First, it was the titans who lorded it over gods and their creations. Then the Solars ruled supreme over the other Exalted and mortals. And now the Dragon-Blooded rule supreme (mostly) over mortals... but not all of them. The pattern is similar, but it's not the same.

A pattern that the developers have gone to state they've stabbed in the eye. This isn't a thing anymore.

Or rather, it is, but again, the diminished Third Age is not a result of the loss of the Solars, but the inability of the Sidereals to accept the Law of Diminishment and accept responsibility and judgement.

@HalfTangible: Wrong. History has no patterns. It doesn't repeat itself, or at least only infrequently enough to the point where we can mistake it for a cycle. Humans tend to see patterns were there is none.

If it was, we wouldn't be on computers. We'd not be born, since the Black Plague wouldn't have lead to massive social changes, and the Renaissance would not have evolved into the Enlightenment.

Take the Dragon-Blooded for example. They see themselves as the superior beings, but to them its a responsibility. A massively privileged responsibility, their White Man's Burden, but Terrestrials are expected to be the noblisse oblige-the duty a ruler has to his people. They don't live up to that ideal, a lot of the time, but the Realm is ultimately an institution that can be fixed, since the dream is still there.

The Solar Deliberative wasn't even really a government, just a forum for Solars. There was no dream to begin with, let alone a corrupt one. That entire organization had to be torn down and rebuilt, or just torn down for the good of humanity. The Bronzies decided the latter was more reliable.

[Tavar]

Take the Dragon-Blooded for example. They see themselves as the superior beings, but to them its a responsibility. A massively privileged responsibility, their White Man's Burden, but Terrestrials are expected to be the noblisse oblige-the duty a ruler has to his people. They don't live up to that ideal, a lot of the time, but the Realm is ultimately an institution that can be fixed, since the dream is still there.

Oh god what.

I mean, yeah, the Realm can be fixed. In the same way than any Empire can be fixed, ie, by not being an empire any more.

[Exthalion]

A pattern that the developers have gone to state they've stabbed in the eye. This isn't a thing anymore.

Or rather, it is, but again, the diminished Third Age is not a result of the loss of the Solars, but the inability of the Sidereals to accept the Law of Diminishment and accept responsibility and judgement.

Do you happen to have a link to that?

[The_Snark]

A pattern that the developers have gone to state they've stabbed in the eye. This isn't a thing anymore.

Or rather, it is, but again, the diminished Third Age is not a result of the loss of the Solars, but the inability of the Sidereals to accept the Law of Diminishment and accept responsibility and judgement.

I... do not like this idea. I'm trying not to judge the new edition before I've actually read the finished product, but this bit worries me.

Because there are parts of Exalted's setting that could use changing, but the Sidereal factions aren't one of them (at least to me). They both have valid points. They both have weaknesses in their positions, because it's a complex issue, but not so much that supporters have to be deluded fools or apologists for the faction. You can have sympathetic PCs on either side. It's a nice balance.

So stating that the Bronze Faction is objectively wrong—that they could have done X and made everything right, but didn't out of sheer selfishness—bothers me. What is the point of this change? What do we gain out of it?

[Morty]

The Realm can only be fixed if the Immaculate Philosophy is abolished. It teaches about the manifest, moral and spiritual superiority of the Dragon-Blooded over mortals, which is blatantly false. Sure, they might claim to benevolently care for their subjects... but at the same time, they elevate themselves above them in a way that is flat-out undeserved. Which would apply even if they walked the talk about being benevolent rulers, which they don't.

[Leliel]

I... do not like this idea. I'm trying not to judge the new edition before I've actually read the finished product, but this bit worries me.

Because there are parts of Exalted's setting that could use changing, but the Sidereal factions aren't one of them (at least to me). They both have valid points. They both have weaknesses in their positions, because it's a complex issue, but not so much that supporters have to be deluded fools or apologists for the faction. You can have sympathetic PCs on either side. It's a nice balance.

So stating that the Bronze Faction is objectively wrong—that they could have done X and made everything right, but didn't out of sheer selfishness—bothers me. What is the point of this change? What do we gain out of it?

Actually, nothing changed at all.

It what was came after the Usurpation that screwed it all up-they literally broke reality to escape judgement and loss of political strength. See-the Mask, and why we don't have it anymore.

Thus, all of Creation paid the price for the legacy they built, and the solution became worse than the problem.

@ Exthalion: Hoo boy. It was on White Wolf.

I'll get back to you on that. Now: Board Spelunking!

@ Morty: Actually, the Immaculates are a Good Thing (the moral is good, the enforcement is not), it's the Realm. As Tavar mentioned, it's the Expansionist Empire that's the big problem. It, like most Empires, is a huge bully and thinks it's doing a service by being a bully. It really needs some political reforms more than anything.

And uh, for it to stop being the Expansionist Empire and start being the Nation That Controls the Blessed Isle.

[Morty]

I... don't think they're a Good Thing at all. Even without the Realm being an imperialistic, oppressive super-power. They teach two things that are blatantly false: 1) That the Dragon-Blooded are more enlightened than mortals and thus morally superior to them, and 2) That the Celestial Exalted are vile Anathema to be hunted down and exterminated. Then there's the issue of them imposing a strict hierarchy and promoting humility and "knowing your place", which aren't bald lies like the two other things, but still very, very iffy.

[Leliel]

I... don't think they're a Good Thing at all. Even without the Realm being an imperialistic, oppressive super-power. They teach two things that are blatantly false: 1) That the Dragon-Blooded are more enlightened than mortals and thus morally superior to them, and 2) That the Celestial Exalted are vile Anathema to be hunted down and exterminated. Then there's the issue of them imposing a strict hierarchy and promoting humility and "knowing your place", which aren't bald lies like the two other things, but still very, very iffy.

1) They then follow it up with "so act like it". It's a veiled commandment, one that many people deliberately ignore, but still it's a commandment: "You're a Prince of the Earth, you need to take care of it."

2) Celestial Exalted. One look at the thing some of them get up to and this becomes an understandable doctrine. This can be reformed easily enough, it's not actually that important to the rest of the religion.

The rest is...actually a pretty good idea in many cases. Especially promoting humility, it's one of those virtues that tends to make people smarter. Knowing your place is suspect, but the rest? Eh.

[Rikandur Azebol]

@ Morty, Immaculates do more good than bad in the long term. After all, with Yu-Shan going all happily corrupt on harvested prayers and not policing their own Terrestial Gods it falls to the mortals to keep these in line.

Doctrine they teach isn't entirely bad either. After all, some Exalted take it seriously enough and act humble and moral themselves. All in all Empire on the Blessed Isle is doing less harm than good. Do they meddle in the Treshold ? Yes. Do they abuse their privileges ? Doubly yes. Are the Empress's empire the most successful and civilized society ruled by Exalted ever ? Most likely so.

Although I do laugh bitterly when excesses of the Celestial Host are compared to Titans not treating people they created as real beings. Unlike Solars, who are humans themselves, Titans had realistic reasons to treat mortals as scenery and/or imaginary toys.

But I also agree that all good that Solar Usurpation could achieve was lost when Siddies broke the world scared of bearing responsibility for their crimes against Celestial Gods. For wich, in a sense, they were working.

[Morty]

1) They then follow it up with "so act like it". It's a veiled commandment, one that many people deliberately ignore, but still it's a commandment: "You're a Prince of the Earth, you need to take care of it."

It doesn't change the fact that it's a lie. One that ascribes moral superiority to people who have none. The "so act like it" commandment wouldn't be necessary if they didn't tell them they're enlightened Princes of the Earth in the first place.


2) Celestial Exalted. One look at the thing some of them get up to and this becomes an understandable doctrine. This can be reformed easily enough, it's not actually that important to the rest of the religion.

It's no excuse for butchering freshly Exalted Solars and Lunars who have no idea what they even are. And I'd say it is pretty important to the religion, seeing as the purpose it was invented in the first place is to give the DBs a religious reason to hunt down Solars, I think.


The rest is...actually a pretty good idea in many cases. Especially promoting humility, it's one of those virtues that tends to make people smarter. Knowing your place is suspect, but the rest? Eh.

It is highly suspect, yes, in entirety. The message is "don't have ideas, stick to what your betters tell you to do, don't aspire to greatness". Which is a pretty lousy message to spread.


@ Morty, Immaculates do more good than bad in the long term. After all, with Yu-Shan going all happily corrupt on harvested prayers and not policing their own Terrestial Gods it falls to the mortals to keep these in line.

Keeping the gods in line is good. Elevating Dragon-Blooded to godhood and killing innocent people for what they are aren't. To say nothing of enforcing your religion at swordpoint.


Doctrine they teach isn't entirely bad either. After all, some Exalted take it seriously enough and act humble and moral themselves. All in all Empire on the Blessed Isle is doing less harm than good. Do they meddle in the Treshold ? Yes. Do they abuse their privileges ? Doubly yes. Are the Empress's empire the most successful and civilized society ruled by Exalted ever ? Most likely so.

Just because some Terrestrial Exalted are decent people despite their religion teaching them that they're manifestly superior isn't a feature of the religion. It's due to those Exalts being decent people.

[Rikandur Azebol]

It doesn't change the fact that it's a lie. One that ascribes moral superiority to people who have none. The "so act like it" commandment wouldn't be necessary if they didn't tell them they're enlightened Princes of the Earth in the first place.

Religion is a big fat lie in the first place, at least in Exalted. And are you willing to deny that average mortal Joe is inferior in all respects to average Dragon-Blooded Joe ?


It's no excuse for butchering freshly Exalted Solars and Lunars who have no idea what they even are. And I'd say it is pretty important to the religion, seeing as the purpose it was invented in the first place is to give the DBs a religious reason to hunt down Solars, I think.

Chmm ... you have biased look there. Celestial Exaltations are RARE. Only severa hundreds in the whole big Creation. That means Wyld Hunt isn't hunting innocent Solars. It means that when Anathema grow loud enough to warrant attention from a Wyld Hunt it is hunted. You should not assume that all Solars are pristine heroes, like from comic books, just because they had recieved Exaltation. The candidates for Celestial Exaltation are incredibly dangerous people by definition. Willing to do anything to achieve their goals ... and with Exaltation they get Power that seems Absolute.

Go figure why over the centuries after overthrow of the Solars there were no sucessful re-changing of the "Anathema are bad news" despite all the mass mind-breaking powers Eclipses have ?


It is highly suspect, yes, in entirety. The message is "don't have ideas, stick to what your betters tell you to do, don't aspire to greatness". Which is a pretty lousy message to spread.

You seem to again, ignore parts of the Immaculate Philosophy, and stick to those you detest. I would prefer you to compare In Universe things with things from said Universe. Look at other Religions from Creation and compare them with Immaculate Philosophy.


Keeping the gods in line is good. Elevating Dragon-Blooded to godhood and killing innocent people for what they are aren't. To say nothing of enforcing your religion at swordpoint.

You seem to have grieviance here against Immaculate Philosophy for not being the IDEAL you would wish it to be, I think. Am I right with my guess ?

And please tell me ... since when known Exalted religions were not spread at sword point ?


Just because some Terrestrial Exalted are decent people despite their religion teaching them that they're manifestly superior isn't a feature of the religion. It's due to those Exalts being decent people.

The Immaculate Philosophy encourages decency in the adherents. Something I find sorerly lacking in other published religions from Creation. Probably because most of them would be Yozi cultists or other creeps like Han-Ta, the Eater of the Dead. Or Ahlat's harem. :smallwink:

[The_Snark]

Actually, nothing changed at all.

It what was came after the Usurpation that screwed it all up-they literally broke reality to escape judgement and loss of political strength. See-the Mask, and why we don't have it anymore.

Right. But there's a difference between "the Sidereals broke the Mask for selfish purposes, damaging reality in a way that may have dire-yet-mysterious ramifications," which is more or less the current state of affairs, and "the Sidereals broke the Mask for selfish purposes, and this is directly responsible for the fall of the Shogunate and the sorry state of the world today."

Which is what you imply when you say that the diminished Third Age stems from the Sidereals' inability to face the consequences of their actions.

[Lochar]

Right. But there's a difference between "the Sidereals broke the Mask for selfish purposes, damaging reality in a way that may have dire-yet-mysterious ramifications," which is more or less the current state of affairs, and "the Sidereals broke the Mask for selfish purposes, and this is directly responsible for the fall of the Shogunate and the sorry state of the world today."

Which is what you imply when you say that the diminished Third Age stems from the Sidereals' inability to face the consequences of their actions.

More like "Because they refused to take their punishment, they were unable to help prop up the Shogunate instead."

The backlash of their Arcane Fate meant they couldn't stay in plain sight and guide the Shogunate, because most people would forget them too quickly. And by the time they figured out what happened to themselves with the Mask breaking, all the Dragonblood forgot who had helped orchestrate the coup.

So the Sidereals were forced from the 'Viziers at the side of the rulers' to 'Shadowy power'

[horngeek]

Religion is a big fat lie in the first place, at least in Exalted. And are you willing to deny that average mortal Joe is inferior in all respects to average Dragon-Blooded Joe ?

Actually, the only organised religion in Creation that is completely built on lies is the cult of the Silver Prince.

Everything else is partially true, partially Obi-Wan true, and then the system of morals the founder of the religion wished to impose is added on.

On Sidereals: I think there might have been an element of 'we're doing this big thing, it'll hurt you, but hey, we're dodging all the consequences that fall on us! Now, you have to support these guys. No? Well, tough, we'll make you.'

If the Sidereals had not broken the Mask, they might have been able to negotiate with the gods. The Sidereals took the brunt of the sanctions in return for the gods supporting the Dragon-Blooded.

But instead, they broke the mask, dodging any legal sanctions, but also making it a whole lot harder to make the gods see reason.

[Morty]

Religion is a big fat lie in the first place, at least in Exalted.

Which excuses the Immaculate Philosophy being a lie how..?


And are you willing to deny that average mortal Joe is inferior in all respects to average Dragon-Blooded Joe ?

Yes, I am. The mortal Joe has no powers. Does that mean they are morally inferior? Well. The answer seems obvious.


Chmm ... you have biased look there. Celestial Exaltations are RARE. Only severa hundreds in the whole big Creation. That means Wyld Hunt isn't hunting innocent Solars. It means that when Anathema grow loud enough to warrant attention from a Wyld Hunt it is hunted. You should not assume that all Solars are pristine heroes, like from comic books, just because they had recieved Exaltation. The candidates for Celestial Exaltation are incredibly dangerous people by definition. Willing to do anything to achieve their goals ... and with Exaltation they get Power that seems Absolute.

So many assumptions. I hate to break it to you, but I do not assume all the things you think I do.


Go figure why over the centuries after overthrow of the Solars there were no sucessful re-changing of the "Anathema are bad news" despite all the mass mind-breaking powers Eclipses have ?

Beats me. It's not terribly relevant to a discussion of the virtues of the Immaculate faith.


You seem to again, ignore parts of the Immaculate Philosophy, and stick to those you detest. I would prefer you to compare In Universe things with things from said Universe. Look at other Religions from Creation and compare them with Immaculate Philosophy.

I do not ignore any parts, nor do I stick to any others. The Immaculate Philosophy is objectively wrong, preaching things that are not true. Whatever good things it might bring are not worth killing innocent people and stifling the potential of the mortal masses.


You seem to have grieviance here against Immaculate Philosophy for not being the IDEAL you would wish it to be, I think. Am I right with my guess ?

Obviously, you aren't. I'm not sure how you'd arrive at the conclusion.


And please tell me ... since when known Exalted religions were not spread at sword point ?


"Everyone else does it!" is a pretty bad excuse.


The Immaculate Philosophy encourages decency in the adherents. Something I find sorerly lacking in other published religions from Creation. Probably because most of them would be Yozi cultists or other creeps like Han-Ta, the Eater of the Dead. Or Ahlat's harem. :smallwink:

That says more about all those religions than the Immaculate Philosophy.

[Ifni]

It doesn't change the fact that it's a lie. One that ascribes moral superiority to people who have none. The "so act like it" commandment wouldn't be necessary if they didn't tell them they're enlightened Princes of the Earth in the first place.

It's a fact that they have personal power that other people do not. The Immaculate doctrines as pitched to the Dragon-Blooded (at least, by the nicer teachers) are "your power and enlightenment means you have both a right and a duty to lead and protect". Note that the leader of the Immaculate Order is called the Mouth of Peace because they are traditionally one of the strongest voices in the Realm counseling against war (i.e., dealing with problems by Being A Giant Empire That Invades Countries At The Drop Of A Hat).


It's no excuse for butchering freshly Exalted Solars and Lunars who have no idea what they even are. And I'd say it is pretty important to the religion, seeing as the purpose it was invented in the first place is to give the DBs a religious reason to hunt down Solars, I think.

It's the reason the Sidereals promoted it, but you could get rid of it and still keep most of the rest. I think it would be a fundamental change to the religion, though, because the threat of being invaded by an Anathema (soul-eating demon) supports the position that individual ambition, when it draws people to aspire to something beyond their nature, is a moral failing.

I think this post (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=650366#post650366) describes the doctrine fairly well.


It is highly suspect, yes, in entirety. The message is "don't have ideas, stick to what your betters tell you to do, don't aspire to greatness". Which is a pretty lousy message to spread.

The message is also "Don't spend your life chasing impossible dreams or resenting that you don't have the power some others do - instead, do what you can to make the world better where you are, with the tools available to you. Help the weak in your community. Cherish your family and friends and work together with them to build something good. Resist the blandishments of gods and demons who want to exploit you for their own selfish ends, and don't despair when you encounter troubles beyond your strength. You are stronger together than apart."

The Immaculate doctrines are appealing to people for a reason. It's not all just Dragon-Bloods-Are-Awesome propaganda, although there is an element of that. I am certainly not saying that the doctrines are unambiguously good, but nor are they unambiguously awful.

My Eclipse was a very devout Immaculate before she Exalted, and she still thinks there's a lot of good in their teachings - partly because her much-loved older sister is an Immaculate monk, but mostly because her faith was a source of hope and comfort to her when she was trying to build up the resistance in Thorns against the Mask of Winters. A reformation is on her to-do list.

[The Rose Dragon]

I do not ignore any parts, nor do I stick to any others. The Immaculate Philosophy is objectively wrong, preaching things that are not true. Whatever good things it might bring are not worth killing innocent people and stifling the potential of the mortal masses.

The stifling is actually the core tenet of the Immaculate dogma, because those who defy it are more likely to undergo Celestial Exaltation. The Sidereals really, really don't want anyone but Sidereals already destined to do so to undergo Celestial Exaltation. That is a very big Good Thing™ from the Sidereal perspective, because to them, the alternative to not getting rid of the Celestial Exalts was the potential destruction of all Creation.

Of course, we know the Sidereals are not infallible, and we can see what could make the Great Prophecy go awry. But if the Great Prophecy was really as inevitable as the Sidereals believed, and if the presence of Solars really kept Creation on a razor's edge over oblivion, I could see why they chose stability and diminishment over the destruction of everything.

[Berdium]

Killing Anathema and never trying to be as good as your superiors or really making any strive at greatness are both core components of the Immaculate Faith. Whether or not there are good components is irrelevant to the fact that if you removed those things, it wouldn't be the same religion anymore.

E: Unless you wanted to argue that killing Solars is a good thing but that is a different kettle of fish.

[The_Snark]

More like "Because they refused to take their punishment, they were unable to help prop up the Shogunate instead."

The backlash of their Arcane Fate meant they couldn't stay in plain sight and guide the Shogunate, because most people would forget them too quickly. And by the time they figured out what happened to themselves with the Mask breaking, all the Dragonblood forgot who had helped orchestrate the coup.

So the Sidereals were forced from the 'Viziers at the side of the rulers' to 'Shadowy power'

And if they had been executed for treason, indefinitely imprisoned, or placed under the strict supervision of bitter gods determined to 'keep them in line,' this would have helped the Shogunate how...?

It seems unlikely that the punishment would have been a slap on the wrist.


If the Sidereals had not broken the Mask, they might have been able to negotiate with the gods. The Sidereals took the brunt of the sanctions in return for the gods supporting the Dragon-Blooded.

But instead, they broke the mask, dodging any legal sanctions, but also making it a whole lot harder to make the gods see reason.

It'd be nice to think that the gods would have honored the Sidereals' collective willingness to face justice, and supported the Dragon-Blooded in exchange. But I somehow doubt it'd work out that way. They could just as easily go "you want concessions in exchange for abiding by the laws of Heaven? Yeah, right. Those guys are as guilty as you, and they're going down."

I don't have any problem with the notion that Creation might have been better off if the Sidereals hadn't broken the Mask. Just with the objective statement that it would have been better, definitely, 100%.

[Leliel]

Killing Anathema and never trying to be as good as your superiors or really making any strive at greatness are both core components of the Immaculate Faith. Whether or not there are good components is irrelevant to the fact that if you removed those things, it wouldn't be the same religion anymore.


All major world religions beg to disagree.

[TimeWizard]

Can I get a clarification of what the Mask was? I know it's something Sidereal's used to hide their crimes and eventually broke.

[horngeek]

Can I get a clarification of what the Mask was? I know it's something Sidereal's used to hide their crimes and eventually broke.

One of the twenty-five constellations used for Astrology by the Sidereal Exalted.

They broke it specifically to hide their crimes in this case. Which also resulted in Arcane Fate.

[Berdium]

All major world religions beg to disagree.

Not really. The Catholic Church may have altered which direction the congregation can sit, what outfits nuns wear, and who can hand out communion, but these are all minor things. The major factors of what they believe have all been pretty much static since the early church. In fact, they kind of take a lot of pride in that, claiming Tradition and an 'unbroken line had to start an entirely different Religion tracing itself back to the apostles' as hugfe parts of their legitimacy. Meanwhile, Martin Luther had to start an entirely new religion when he challenged indulgences and general beliefs as to what gets one in Heaven. Same for John Calvin and ideas of predestination and whatnot. So no, most major religions would agree.

[Leliel]

Not really. The Catholic Church may have altered which direction the congregation can sit, what outfits nuns wear, and who can hand out communion, but these are all minor things. The major factors of what they believe have all been pretty much static since the early church. In fact, they kind of take a lot of pride in that, claiming Tradition and an 'unbroken line had to start an entirely different Religion tracing itself back to the apostles' as hugfe parts of their legitimacy. Meanwhile, Martin Luther had to start an entirely new religion when he challenged indulgences and general beliefs as to what gets one in Heaven. Same for John Calvin and ideas of predestination and whatnot. So no, most major religions would agree.

It's still Christianity.

[TimeWizard]

One of the twenty-five constellations used for Astrology by the Sidereal Exalted.

They broke it specifically to hide their crimes in this case. Which also resulted in Arcane Fate.

Can I get some more elaboration? How did they break stars? what's Arcane Fate?

[horngeek]

...might want to steer this back to Creation. :smallsmile:

EDIT: It's unexplained exactly how the Sidereal Exalted broke the Mask, at least as far as I can remember.

Arcane Fate is the term for the tendency of the world to... forget... the Sidereal Exalted. Mortals forget them, documents recording their existence tend to alter so that they no longer record said presence.

Exalted are less likely to forget, but they still can.

[The Rose Dragon]

Can I get some more elaboration? How did they break stars? what's Arcane Fate?

They broke the stars through overtaxing the constellations through massive amounts of astrological meddling. Arcane Fate is a curse that prevents most beings from remembering a specific Sidereal very strongly.

[Tavar]

All major world religions beg to disagree.
What do you mean by this?

It's a fact that they have personal power that other people do not. The Immaculate doctrines as pitched to the Dragon-Blooded (at least, by the nicer teachers) are "your power and enlightenment means you have both a right and a duty to lead and protect". Note that the leader of the Immaculate Order is called the Mouth of Peace because they are traditionally one of the strongest voices in the Realm counseling against war (i.e., dealing with problems by Being A Giant Empire That Invades Countries At The Drop Of A Hat).
Where is this stated?

In any case, the religion is still essentially White Man's Burden, which leads to very uncomfortable places. I mean...oh, god, the really old fire aspect who could get the throne, the one that they aren't choosing essentially only because they worry he'll die in, like, 30 years. He's a devote immaculate.

His position on the current threshold is basically "the Realm's occupied, which is tragic because this means we won't be able to guide them. And if they resist that guiding, we'll beat them until they accept it".

The Immaculate doctrines are appealing to people for a reason. It's not all just Dragon-Bloods-Are-Awesome propaganda, although there is an element of that. I am certainly not saying that the doctrines are unambiguously good, but nor are they unambiguously awful.
It's canon that the Immaculate doctrine has enough truth mixed in with the lies to not be easily dis-proven.

As for the other stuff, well, historically I believe people have joined religions with extremely problematic tenets, largely because they focus on other parts. This doesn't mean the religion doesn't have those tenents.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Can I get some more elaboration? How did they break stars? what's Arcane Fate?

They dossed the Loom with Astrology. They didn't actually break the stars (what relation the stars have to the Loom is kind of unclear, really), they just attacked the Loom until the Mask threads were overloaded.

Arcane (meaning "mysterious" or "secret", not D&D-meaning arcane) Fate is the thing that makes everyone forget who a Sidereal is.

[TimeWizard]

Ok. I didn't know Arcane Fate was what that forgetfulness thing was called. When Sidereals do Astrology, are they influencing fate or just getting a forecast that they attempt to change?

[Mr.Bookworm]

Ok. I didn't know Arcane Fate was what that forgetfulness thing was called. When Sidereals do Astrology, are they influencing fate or just getting a forecast that they attempt to change?

Both, depending on what the Sidereal is doing. Sidereals can both tell the future and muck around with the Loom to alter reality.

[The Rose Dragon]

Depends on which kind of astrology they are doing. Sidereal astrology is manipulating events to make it easier for them to turn out as the Sidereal wills it (though not inevitable). Mortal astrology, which Sidereals can also perform, is more of a way of reading the destiny of someone to see what actions would be favorable for them (especially if, say, those actions were modified by Sidereal astrology).

[Berdium]

It's still Christianity.

So? The majority of Christian churches identify themselves differently with beliefs that are essentially incompatible. I fail to see your point.

[KnightDisciple]

Can we please not discuss RL religion in this thread? :smallconfused:

[HalfTangible]

@HalfTangible: Wrong. History has no patterns. It doesn't repeat itself, or at least only infrequently enough to the point where we can mistake it for a cycle. Humans tend to see patterns were there is none.

If it was, we wouldn't be on computers. We'd not be born, since the Black Plague wouldn't have lead to massive social changes, and the Renaissance would not have evolved into the Enlightenment.

Dead wrong. History has patterns. EX: The greatest changes occur with tragedy (Black plague, 9/11, etc) or with technology with numerous applications (the industrial revolution, the digital revolution) And it has those patterns because humans make it, and human nature doesn't change.


Take the Dragon-Blooded for example. They see themselves as the superior beings, but to them its a responsibility. A massively privileged responsibility, their White Man's Burden, but Terrestrials are expected to be the noblisse oblige-the duty a ruler has to his people. They don't live up to that ideal, a lot of the time, but the Realm is ultimately an institution that can be fixed, since the dream is still there.

The Realm can't be fixed because it was built to function with the Scarlet Empress at the top, and she's off gods-know-where.


But the nature of the supremacy diminishes with each iteration. First, it was the titans who lorded it over gods and their creations. Then the Solars ruled supreme over the other Exalted and mortals. And now the Dragon-Blooded rule supreme (mostly) over mortals... but not all of them. The pattern is similar, but it's not the same.

Isn't the whole idea of ending the third age supposed to be to bring the Solars back into power?

[Berdium]

Can we please not discuss RL religion in this thread? :smallconfused:

I am willing to comply with this request!

[Leliel]

I am willing to comply with this request!

Seconded over here.

[Maugan Ra]

I admit, I personally support the Immaculate philosophy in the context of Exalted. It's not the best possible solution, but it is a pretty decent one, for one primary reason - it applies to the gods as well.

Gods have immense power over the individual domains, many of which are absolutely critical to the survival and happiness of any nearby human population. If a god decides to extort the humans within his reach for something (be it prayers, material tribute, young and beautiful women or outright fealty), it is very, very difficult for said humans to do anything more than comply. After all, if the local rain god isn't kept happy, your harvest fails and your children starve to death. Sure, the god might eventually receive censure for his actions - if anyone further up the chain ever finds out and is actually inclined to give a damn - but that doesn't really help you in the here and now, does it?

The Immaculate faith is, essentially, a regulatory authority. Because of the rules it lays down, spirits have to limit themselves and behave honestly when dealing with their... constituents is the best word I have... lest a pious Immaculate come by and beat the crap out of them. To a degree, this even helps the spirits, as the Immaculates are every bit as likely to thrash that rival god who has been trying to steal your allowed worshippers.

As for the reverence for the Dragon-Blooded, well, at the end of the day... they are guarding Creation. When the Fair Folk lead their armies of walking nightmares into the countryside, it's the Terrestrials who oppose them. When a Necromancer raises a horde of undead and murders your family, it's the Wyld Hunt that rides him down.

And, as it turns out, when Ma-Ha-Suchi the Lunar Anathaema, a demon who walks in the shape of man and beast alike, unleashes a bestial legion of horrific monsters against the civilized world, aiming to tear down all that is beautiful or refined... it is the Scarlet Legions that take to the field to oppose him.

So the Immaculate faith teaches compliance to these heroes, the children of the dragons, who risk their lives and souls to keep Creation safe. It teaches it's worshippers to look for strength in each other, rather than as lone wolves, to stand as a community and call upon their sacred protectors when even that is not enough. If you find yourself called to greater glory, why, it has a place for you as well - come to the temples, enlighten your essence, learn supernatural martial arts and military tactics... and when the next threat to your homeland rears it's head, ride with the Hunt to oppose it.

And if you do all of this, if you serve loyally and well, and tread the path to enlightenment... then in your next life, you will be rewarded, as the Dragon-Blooded are. No, not all of them are the moral paragons they should be, but that too is acceptable... for even the children of the dragons may die, and when they reincarnate in turn, their lofty status will have been stripped from them as just punishment.

It can be a very persuasive ideology, if preached well. That it has at least some basis in truth (Lethe and the cycle of reincarnation are verifiable facts, and Ma-Ha-Suchi is a walking example of why the Anathaema should not be given time to grow into their power) only magnifies that.

(I may have written rather more there than I originally intended to.)

[Leliel]

Dead wrong. History has patterns. EX: The greatest changes occur with tragedy (Black plague, 9/11, etc) or with technology with numerous applications (the industrial revolution, the digital revolution) And it has those patterns because humans make it, and human nature doesn't change.


The Realm can't be fixed because it was built to function with the Scarlet Empress at the top, and she's off gods-know-where.



Isn't the whole idea of ending the third age supposed to be to bring the Solars back into power?

Three for three, all wrong.

1) There's a lot of explanation I don't have time to go into, but, basically, European history is not the world's history.

2) Scarlet Throne does not care who sits in it. That was meant to be her, but with tuning to another heir...

3) Maybe. Could also be devouring by Oblivion, the rewiring of the Scarlet Empire and Terrestrials strengthening their hold, Lunar domination, the rise of a Green Sun Empire, regime change in Heaven with Gentimian backing...

[Tavar]

:snip:
A) while reincarnation is true, I don't think there's any actual guiding force for it(well, maybe the Solar stuff from the first age, but those likely don't work anymore, and even if they did they wouldn't apply).
B) you're forgetting the submission it preaches. Yes, Dragonblooded do great things. This includes what we would consider great travesties.

The immaculate faith has good parts and bad parts. The thing is, you can't excise one without fundamentally changing the faith, to the extent that it's no longer the faith from canon, any more than you can reform the realm without tearing it apart.

[Exthalion]

I think the real reason the Immaculate Faith is around is twofold:

1. It has enough bad mixed in to explain why Magic America sends teams of Ninja Bender Sentai Teams against your Celestial/Fey/etc. characters.

2. It has enough good mixed in to allow your Terrestrial characters to build palaces with hookers for bricks and blow for mortar (edit: House Cynis has this trademarked so different examples will be required for other houses excesses) while still being the hero.

[TimeWizard]

General Yozi question: Is Malfeas physically in a space you can get to, or can you only get their transdimensionally through Cecelyne? This brings me to the follow up- if the Endless Desert takes 5 days to get through from anywhere her sands slip into creation, does that mean you can use Cecelyne to get to (basically) anywhere in creation in 10 days? Can you skip going to Malfeas and just 5 day to anywhere?

Also, is Oblivion literally under Creation? Is the "thickness" of the plate of Creation ever listed?

********

2. It has enough good mixed in to allow you to build palaces with hookers for bricks and blow for mortar while still being the hero.

Wow. I want that, like, tattooed on something.

[Lord Raziere]

I don't think it works like that.

these places aren't about geography, or even planar positions in space or whatever.

The Underworld isn't literally under Creation. its just the metaphysical dimension where the dead who refused to pass on dwell, and Oblivion is under THAT and The Underworld just so happens to be a dead mirror of Creation and therefore is metaphysically close, but not physically close. its not really a place that you can get to outside of a shadowland.

and yes, Malfeas is not there in a physical capacity, again the distance is this transdimensional-metaphysical thing and all we know is that its a five-days to cross desert.
as for taking ten days to travel anywhere in Creation through going back and forth across Cecelyne…..ehhh…..I'm not sure about that. your not supposed to be able to travel across Creation in such a short amount of time, but then again Infernals could use it…..I'd say it depend on the game your running? don't know, but I will say this: Cecelyne is only connected to Creation by deserts. if your destination doesn't have a desert….you can't go there.

[Tavar]

General Yozi question: Is Malfeas physically in a space you can get to, or can you only get their transdimensionally through Cecelyne?
Cecelyne surrounds Malfeas.


This brings me to the follow up- if the Endless Desert takes 5 days to get through from anywhere her sands slip into creation, does that mean you can use Cecelyne to get to (basically) anywhere in creation in 10 days?
Yes, though you would have to have a path that worked.


Can you skip going to Malfeas and just 5 day to anywhere?Not sure if canon has anything to say on this.


Also, is Oblivion literally under Creation? Is the "thickness" of the plate of Creation ever listed?
Not really. The underworld shares the same space as Creation(which is why shadowlands are a thing). They're true parallel dimensions.

I believe we know that Creation is infinite under the Pole of earth, but not for other areas.

[Mr.Bookworm]

General Yozi question: Is Malfeas physically in a space you can get to, or can you only get their transdimensionally through Cecelyne?

Eeeeeh. Yes? Kind of? Sort of?

Malfeas is in a place that may or may not be another dimension, but is definitely separate from Creation in a very strict fashion. It's bordered by Cecylene, who is literally infinite in size (she can just make it so it takes an arbitrary amount of time to walk across infinity).

Even if you could figure out a way to travel to Malfeas physically, you'd still need to walk through Cecelyne.


This brings me to the follow up- if the Endless Desert takes 5 days to get through from anywhere her sands slip into creation, does that mean you can use Cecelyne to get to (basically) anywhere in creation in 10 days? Can you skip going to Malfeas and just 5 day to anywhere?

There are a fairly limited number of gates (46, I want to say, but I might be mixing that up with the gates into Yu-Shan) into Creation and almost all of them are conditional. They're only open during the full moon, or when a god is sacrificed, or whatever.

If you had access to two gates, you could use them for travel, sure. You would need to go to Malfeas, though, and quite possibly stay there for a substantial period of time (plus ten days of travel time), depending on the conditions of the gates you're using.

Thus, all told? Probably not worth it and quite probably unreliable on any sort of regular basis. The Guild and various Yozi servitors might occasionally use Malfeas this way, but they're probably the only ones.

It's easier for Infernal Exalted to do it, because they can get Charms or artifacts (the Guild also has a couple of these) that let them directly access Malfeas or Cecelyne anywhere.


Also, is Oblivion literally under Creation? Is the "thickness" of the plate of Creation ever listed?

No. Yes. Maybe.

Creation is of infinite thickness at the center (where the Elemental Pole of Earth is). It tapers down as you approach the edge and then balloons back up to infinity when you hit the other Poles (and continues to taper down at the same time, the Wyld is weird), until it all devolves into Chaos. Presumably, you could hit the Wyld if you dug down far enough, but who knows besides the Jade Folk?

I think the most accurate way to think of the Underworld is as a mirror. It literally overlaps and reflects Creation.

That doesn't preclude it from literally being under Creation, though. Exalted metaphysics are weird.

[Exthalion]

General Yozi question: Is Malfeas physically in a space you can get to, or can you only get their transdimensionally through Cecelyne? This brings me to the follow up- if the Endless Desert takes 5 days to get through from anywhere her sands slip into creation, does that mean you can use Cecelyne to get to (basically) anywhere in creation in 10 days? Can you skip going to Malfeas and just 5 day to anywhere?

Also, is Oblivion literally under Creation? Is the "thickness" of the plate of Creation ever listed?

You can get into Malfeas directly, but it will always take five days. There is a Solar charm for example that punches someone there instantly. They are frozen for five days though.

Definite Yes to the 10 day thing, unsure about the skipping Malfeas thing.

Edit: There are artifacts in Infernals that allow direct paths to and even from Malfeas. The only two way item is an artifact 5 bridge.

[Leliel]

Ah.

About that "Law of Diminishment is why the Ursupation failed" bit?

I read it, but it wasn't a dev.

This is why we have paper records. Please ignore that.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Which excuses the Immaculate Philosophy being a lie how..?

When all things are cats we judge by the stripes, not by the fact that you hate cats.


Yes, I am. The mortal Joe has no powers. Does that mean they are morally inferior? Well. The answer seems obvious.

No it isn't. None of relevant RL morality codes does not apply to Exalted where average morality image breaks down to:"Might makes right."

Thus, in Exaltedverse, when you beat your opponent it automatically make you right and said opponent wrong.


So many assumptions. I hate to break it to you, but I do not assume all the things you think I do.

Poor excuse if you ask me. What I brought here to the table were logical assumptions based of "facts" presented by the setting.

You assume that all Celestial Exaltations bearers are automatically innocent victims just because they received something beyond their control (as in Exalted) ?


I do not ignore any parts, nor do I stick to any others. The Immaculate Philosophy is objectively wrong, preaching things that are not true. Whatever good things it might bring are not worth killing innocent people and stifling the potential of the mortal masses.

Preventing wars from erupting just because person in power had a whim ? Encouraging you to CARE for more than just your selfish desires ?

Objectively speaking, Exalted verse is based on theft and "sacrilege" when Solars and others deposed righteous owners of Creation in treacherous coup and did horrible things to them to ensure their dominance.

Immaculate Philosophy is such great idea because it isn't IDEAL. I personally applaud authors for making such addition to the game. And UNLIKE us adherents of Immaculate Philosophy rarely have luxury of knowing the objective truth on the matter whetever what they preach is true or not.

Thus, Immaculate Faith do keep Blessed Isle relatively peaceful. It preaches Dragon-Blooded as Princes of Earth ... wich they aren't by virtue of what ?

They DID conquered previous owners of Creation, the Celestial Exalted. By Exalted moral standards it makes them rightful to call themselves whatever lofty title current "owner" wished to.

In short, I don't see how your arguments make Immaculate Philosophy worthless in her natural environment. I believe thus that your opinion is, objectively speaking, severely biased based on your personal beliefs.


Obviously, you aren't. I'm not sure how you'd arrive at the conclusion.

From your own words. You describe Immaculate Faith's faults as if you held personal grudge against it.


That says more about all those religions than the Immaculate Philosophy.

Sorry for comparing things from the Creation's perspective, as only valid in such circumstances as far as I am concerned. Let's drop the topic and agree to disagree before it turns into flamewar.

[horngeek]

Thus, in Exaltedverse, when you beat your opponent it automatically make you right and said opponent wrong.

No, it means you beat your opponent. Nothing more.

The devs have stressed on the White Wolf forums that attempting Appeal to Force in Creation might solve your problem... by making a bigger one.

[HalfTangible]

Three for three, all wrong.

1) There's a lot of explanation I don't have time to go into, but, basically, European history is not the world's history.

I could find equivalents for other cultures if you prefer. I used European because it's what I'm most familiar with and the black plague was mentioned already.


2) Scarlet Throne does not care who sits in it. That was meant to be her, but with tuning to another heir...

The Empress specifically built her Empire so that it would constantly be fighting each other for the Empress' favor, so they would never properly unite against and overthrow her. Which is good for preventing rebellion, not so much for deciding on a new leader now that she's gone. She set no orderly line of succession to minimize motive to assassinate her, and other decisions and structures which mean the Empire can't survive without the Empress.


3) Maybe. Could also be devouring by Oblivion, the rewiring of the Scarlet Empire and Terrestrials strengthening their hold, Lunar domination, the rise of a Green Sun Empire, regime change in Heaven with Gentimian backing...

In-universe yes, but from a meta standpoint (and correct me if I'm wrong) Solars are supposed to be the main protagonists/players, right?

[Rikandur Azebol]

No, it means you beat your opponent. Nothing more.

By the books, it seem to do ?


The devs have stressed on the White Wolf forums that attempting Appeal to Force in Creation might solve your problem... by making a bigger one.

Books also imply that it opens new cans of worms, but I do not see how it negates Exaltedverse version from "right" ?

[Guancyto]

This brings me to the follow up- if the Endless Desert takes 5 days to get through from anywhere her sands slip into creation, does that mean you can use Cecelyne to get to (basically) anywhere in creation in 10 days?

Kinda. One of the things about black hat factions (and Sidereals) in Exalted is how tremendously mobile they are. A Labyrinth Circle Necromancer can get from arbitrary Creation point A to arbitrary Creation point B using (wait for it) the Labyrinth in a couple of days, so long as they can find shadowlands to make use of.

A Void Circle Necromancer loyal to the Neverborn can go literally anywhere in that same time frame, even other planes of existence.

Likewise the Infernals have means of using Cecelyne and Sidereals have heavenly gates to get around like a Nexus prostitute in summer.

Sometimes other splats can steal these, sometimes not. Using Cecelyne to get around like a Nexus prostitute in summer without being an Infernal is hard, you might have to settle for monsoon season. Using the Void Circle "go anywhere" spell while pissing on the Neverborn is just an elaborate form of suicide.

[horngeek]

A Void Circle Necromancer loyal to the Neverborn can go literally anywhere in that same time frame, even other planes of existence.

It should be noted this spell falls under '****ing INSANE'.

And your starting point must be the Mouth of the Void.

[Mewtarthio]

if the Endless Desert takes 5 days to get through from anywhere her sands slip into creation, does that mean you can use Cecelyne to get to (basically) anywhere in creation in 10 days? Can you skip going to Malfeas and just 5 day to anywhere?

You cannot travel straight from Point A to Point B via Cecelyne unless you go through Malfeas in between. The reason is that Cecelyne is infinite. The only aspect of Ceclyne's geography that's actually defined is the travel time from Malfeas to Creation and vice versa. If you attempt to plot any other course through the Endless Desert, you will fail, because the distance is infinite.

As for the ten-day trick, that's not guaranteed to work. For one thing, you could only reliably use it to travel between a pair of gates, and those gates aren't exactly common knowledge. Furthermore, you're talking about a ten-day journey through Hell. The Demon City might get a bit of an unfair reputation from time to time, but it is a dangerous place to visit. Don't forget that the Endless Desert and the Demon City are both living entities too vast to comprehend, entities older than Creation itself, entities that once regarded the likes of you as a man regards a single blade of grass. Entities, in summation, that might not appreciate being used as casual shortcuts.

[Guancyto]

It should be noted this spell falls under '****ing INSANE'.

And your starting point must be the Mouth of the Void.

God yes. Technically the progression is:

-Start at Creation!
-Piercing the Shroud opens a staircase to the...
-Labyrinth!
-Infinite Footsteps makes it take a day to reach the...
-Mouth of the Void!
-Black Faith takes you...
-ANYWHERE!

Net travel time: a little more than a day.

You can pull the same trick with Labyrinth Circle with just Piercing the Shroud, Infinite Footsteps and Shadow Stones Travel, but finding a way to get back into the Underworld from the Labyrinth isn't reliable, and your endpoints have to be parts of Creation instead of traveling Creation->Mecha Space New York.

I've seen (and used) the discussion of Black Faith in games as the sort of "they can do what" freakout that people have when trying to actually contemplate VCN or the Neverborn. I've also never seen it used by an NPC or PC ever.

There was one game where I used it to explain how the Neverborn enslaved the Abyssals, by annihilating the concept that dead Solar Exaltations had been a thing for Ages. There were empty monuments, partially missing inscriptions, a whole third of the Solar Host just missing from history. It was kind of fun.

Edit: Forgot Piercing the Shroud allows Creation->Labyrinth travel. Way easier than messing around with Resonance!

[Leliel]

I
In-universe yes, but from a meta standpoint (and correct me if I'm wrong) Solars are supposed to be the main protagonists/players, right?

Nope. There is no meta standpoint, the main protagonist/players are splat your players are playing as.

Also, I must revise my previous statement, as the quote was found:



I have long disliked having Creation be the prehistory of the WoD, and was glad to see it dropped from the development schema.

Exalted as a the prehistory of our world -- but not the oWoD -- is still iffy for me; I like Creation as its own world. If there's any connection between Creation and Earth, I prefer it to be oblique. (Though I confess I rather like the notion Grabowski tossed off that Creation is Earth's future, after Gods-knows how many singularities.)

The tale of Janest puts the Law of Diminishment in an ambiguous light. Simply and literally, it provides an excuse why gods don't just create Exalted at whim: They must give of themselves to do so. As mentioned, it also tidily explains why the Yozis would only create Exalted by stealing other Exaltations: They are so bitter and envious about what they have already lost that they cannot bear to give up more. On a broader, metaphorica level, the LoD suggests that creating anything new and great requires diminishing something else.

But what if the sacrifice is worth it? If the new thing can become greate than what was lost? Ten Sheaves was only a small god, unable to protect his people; Janest is mightier, and may become a legend across Creation.

The fifth trial of sorcerous initiation is sacrifice: Give some of what you are to become someone greater.

The Usurpation was not such a sacrifice. The Bronze Faction murdered the Solars to preserve what they had. They diminished Creation instead of themselves. They wanted someone else -- in fact, everyone else -- to pay the price for their prudence.

So, the way to avoid the Law of Diminishment is to embrace it fully. The cistern hoards water, and becomes foul in time; the fountain overflows, and stays pure forever.

Dean Shomshak

So yeah. In Shomshak's opinion, the Bronzies are fooling themselves when they say they were only acting in Creation's best interests. They chose the coward's way out, and all of Creation suffered for it.

The Bronzies today are not those Sidereals (unless they are Chejop), so there's your playability. Just don't expect Dean to defend them breaking the Mask.

[The_Snark]

Mmm. I would prefer these things to be left ambiguous rather than having Word of God about who was morally in the right, but again, I'll wait to see how the books address it before I worry too much.


I could find equivalents for other cultures if you prefer. I used European because it's what I'm most familiar with and the black plague was mentioned already.

I think that, while there are certainly recurring trends in human behavior and society that you can point to, it's wrong to call history a cycle. That implies a linear, repeating progression, which is a gross simplification. Yes, the Usurpation bears some resemblance to the Primordial War, and the decay of the present-day Realm mirrors the decadence of the old Solar Deliberative. But it's not like there's a giant Timeline of History that's about to strike Revolution O'Clock.


In-universe yes, but from a meta standpoint (and correct me if I'm wrong) Solars are supposed to be the main protagonists/players, right?

They're the default choice presented in the core book, but that doesn't necessarily make Solars the main protagonists for the setting. Also? Even if your protagonists are Solars, a restored First Age is not necessarily their end-goal. Solars are a diverse lot.

[Ifni]

They're the default choice presented in the core book, but that doesn't necessarily make Solars the main protagonists for the setting. Also? Even if your protagonists are Solars, a restored First Age is not necessarily their end-goal. Solars are a diverse lot.

QFT. The next Solar I play who genuinely wants to restore the First Age will be the first.

(Of my two most active Solar characters, one has a Motivation of Reconcile The Dragon-Blooded With The Celestial Exalted, and the other one... well, her two weeks post-Exaltation were fairly traumatic for someone with Compassion 5, and it was pretty much entirely Solars' fault - old ghosts, the Great Geas, her circle-mates spreading death and destruction...)

[Mr.Bookworm]

I think that, while there are certainly recurring trends in human behavior and society that you can point to, it's wrong to call history a cycle. That implies a linear, repeating progression, which is a gross simplification. Yes, the Usurpation bears some resemblance to the Primordial War, and the decay of the present-day Realm mirrors the decadence of the old Solar Deliberative. But it's not like there's a giant Timeline of History that's about to strike Revolution O'Clock.

To paraphrase Twain, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes".


They're the default choice presented in the core book, but that doesn't necessarily make Solars the main protagonists for the setting. Also? Even if your protagonists are Solars, a restored First Age is not necessarily their end-goal. Solars are a diverse lot.

"Protagonist" isn't really the right word; that implies a set narrative with a clearly defined viewpoint character.

Solars are, however, the focal point of the setting. Exalted starts after the Solars come back and deals with the effects they have on the world. On a meta-level, everyone is reacting to them and their resurgence.

[Kyeudo]

To paraphrase Twain, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes".


People have never paid attention to history to notice. I can see the fall of the Roman Empire about to play itself out again in almost every First World Country, see the American Revolution play out all over again in China, and we just saw the Great Depression's little brother hit a few years ago. People wonder why I'm paranoid.

[Longes]

General Yozi question: Is Malfeas physically in a space you can get to, or can you only get their transdimensionally through Cecelyne? This brings me to the follow up- if the Endless Desert takes 5 days to get through from anywhere her sands slip into creation, does that mean you can use Cecelyne to get to (basically) anywhere in creation in 10 days? Can you skip going to Malfeas and just 5 day to anywhere?

Technically yes, but only if Cecelyne really likes you. And she probably doesn't. Remember, that she has complete controll over her geography, with the only restriction being 5 days to Malfeas, 5 days back. If you are not going to Malfeas, then good luck finding your way in the everchanging desert.

[Guancyto]

People have never paid attention to history to notice. I can see the fall of the Roman Empire about to play itself out again in almost every First World Country, see the American Revolution play out all over again in China, and we just saw the Great Depression's little brother hit a few years ago. People wonder why I'm paranoid.

o_o

Errr...

It would be accurate to say that particular social and economic patterns tend to produce somewhat predictable results. Things like "nomadic conquerors generally stopped being nomadic once they got some conquest under their belt unless they were the Mongols" or "no one conquers Russia in the winter unless they are the Mongols" or "empires don't tend to have a lot of religious freedom, unless run by the Mongols (or Persians)."

A lot of that is still applicable today because people don't change and we're still the same messy, screwy beings we were about six thousand years ago when we started writing things down (there are an estimated 37,000 years between the appearance of Homo sapiens sapiens and 'recorded history.' Compare that to Homo sapiens neanderthalensis which were kicking around for at least 350,000 and you'll see why people haven't changed: modern civilization is barely a blip in evolution's eye).

But it would be remiss to forget that the downfall of civilization has been predicted for about as long as there has been civilization, and that although many things have stayed the same, many things have also changed. So too with Creation. You can extract broad trends that point toward things like the Balkanization of the Realm or the rise of Sidereal Empires (totally going to be a thing, mark my words), but so much about the Third Age is genuinely unprecedented that an overreliance on history can be as damaging as ignorance of it.

[meschlum]

Wanderer's Guide to What Is

Sometimes, Creation Is really confusing, with its weird social rules and insufficiently arbitrary physics. Fortunately, countless Raksha have traveled there before you, and our editorial office has collected the reports of the longest lived and most successful among them. Remember, younglings: you only get to retire in Yu Shan (pages 777-7777 of tome 3, "Really Fun Places with good drinks") if you can display enough savvy and familiarity with local languages to pass as a bona fide Sidereal.

The Wanderer's Guide is a very helpful book, bearing an instructive and useful label, which any wise reality exploiter will make sure to bring along. Besides basic and useful survival advice, it also includes a wide selection of beacons and signaling devices, which can be used to catch a ride to pretty much anywhere in Creation, and most places beyond as well.

Of course, in order to remain up to date and fully informed about new developments in pocket universes, the busy staff running the Wanderer's Guide is always happy to review new discoveries, and offers very generous payments. Access the Tablets of Eternal Life, opportunities to rewrite or explore local history, really nice shrimp cocktails, gateways into the Yozi of Happy Healing Hugs... write a good article, outlive the Wyld Hunt, and your career is made!

Mechanics

We've been there before, but it never hurts to go over your options.

- The more reliable travel routes using the Guide simply work off a network of Chancels, allowing transition between any two of them in a few scenes at most. Call it one hour to go between the depths of the Underworld and Yu Shan, or just skip across Creation into Autochtonia (assuming the Seal is or ever was open, of course). Malfeas is just another destination, with the temporal shenanigans that implies - you're not going through the Endless Desert unless you feel like it.

- If you're just looking for a place to have a few drinks, the Chancels contain any number of tropical islands where the only liquid is rum. If you want to ski right away, a few Diplomats and Entertainers with Soul Carving Artifice can create your ideal surfing slopes in the time it takes to imagine them.

- Once you're close to your destination, use complementary Stupidly Fast travel behemoths to get there. Managed by suitable Workers with Entertainer support for in flight shows, and you can manage a pace of 330 yards / tick. As a Move action. Before you get really serious about it. Compare to the post errata maximum speed of a First Age jet airplane equivalent (40 mph), and you've made a good start.

- Of course you might want to exploit Sorcerous or Necromantic techniques that claim to get you there (wherever there is) faster. In that case, just use focused Workers to reproduce up to Celestial level magics. As many as you want, since you have access to the Guide. The next tier up calls for a few more shenanigans, but your portable Essence 10 minion with infinite xp can pull them off fairly efficiently to boot.

Given all that, the real question is what you've found while plundering the depths of your fevered imagination. How about...


Happy Hugging Style

Often mistaken for grappling experts, the practitioners of the Happy Hugging Terrestrial Martial Art are, indeed, invincible in grappling combat - except by another stylist. Since the goal of their art is not twisting others into pretzels, but rather evoking joy and peace within all those they hug, these stylists have managed to fail at attracting the attention of the more reputable martial arts circuits, and few of the greatest sifus have heard of them either. Those who have either grin beatifically or shiver in terror, mumbling about kittens.

The style has a number of Charms, which are abusively cheap and easy to use, yet somehow accessible to Enlightened mortals - and even the occasional unenlightened hyperactive three year old. Of these, two are of particular note. The Joyful Tackle can be initiated while in a clinch in order to guarantee that the Charm user's grapple is inescapable, above and beyond any perfect defenses short of literal teleportation.

Much more interesting, 59th Lonely Move can be used to restore the morale and health of those grabbed by the martial artist, via intense full body hugs that are reputed to work even better if there is minimal (or no) material between the participants. Certainly it has proven very effective in winning the hearts, minds, and hormones of practitioners of other styles and compatible genders.

Mechanics

Joyful Tackle
1-dot Adjuration
Armament of Flesh - the Rate of the Tackle user's clinches is increased by Essence, up to +3 (+4 for Exalts). Since there is no other way to get a clinch Rate over 1, this is an autowin for anyone with higher Essence than their opponent.

59th Lonely Move
2-dot Adjuration (or 1 dot Behemoth / Oneiromancy)
Ordinary Object Conjuration - when performing the 59th Lonely Move, the martial artist creates a glassful of Celestial Wine, which the recipient partakes of. The extra friction and squirming is entirely for the benefit of the practitioner, the receiver, and any bystanders.

(Hint: try Latin numerals)

[horngeek]

XD

On another note, anyone willing to do an OOTS/KoC style pic of my Dawn Caste? I'll get a description up if anyone's interested.

[Longes]

Bah. You forgot big yellow letters "Don't panic".

[Drascin]

They're the default choice presented in the core book, but that doesn't necessarily make Solars the main protagonists for the setting. Also? Even if your protagonists are Solars, a restored First Age is not necessarily their end-goal. Solars are a diverse lot.

They aren't necessarily, in that the setup of having them as the core book Exalts doesn't necessitate their protagonism by itself... but up to now they more or less have been, and that's pretty hard to argue against.

[TimeWizard]

I was thinking of the whole Cecelyne thing for my Malefactor, wondering if it be breaking rules for him to 5 day the party around (probably I'll end up GM'ing, so he'll start as a guiding Infernal GMPC). Plus I have a good quest hook about the party needing a Desert Rose as payment.

* * * * * * * * *

When all things are cats we judge by the stripes, not by the fact that you hate cats.

Is that original to you or a quote? because I quite like it.

[Friv]

So yeah. In Shomshak's opinion, the Bronzies are fooling themselves when they say they were only acting in Creation's best interests. They chose the coward's way out, and all of Creation suffered for it.

The Bronzies today are not those Sidereals (unless they are Chejop), so there's your playability. Just don't expect Dean to defend them breaking the Mask.

Personally, I feel that if breaking a part of your very nature as a part of an operation meant to save the world doesn't count as diminishing yourself for the sake of others, I really don't know what does.

[Longes]

I was thinking of the whole Cecelyne thing for my Malefactor, wondering if it be breaking rules for him to 5 day the party around (probably I'll end up GM'ing, so he'll start as a guiding Infernal GMPC). Plus I have a good quest hook about the party needing a Desert Rose as payment.

* * * * * * * * *


Is that original to you or a quote? because I quite like it.

Pfff. If that's a GMPC, than just do it. And when someone questions it, just say "Custom charm". For bonus prettines make him do rituals to Cecelyne before every travel.

[Recaiden]

XD

On another note, anyone willing to do an OOTS/KoC style pic of my Dawn Caste? I'll get a description up if anyone's interested.

Sure. You want the picture for any particular purpose?

[Exthalion]

Pfff. If that's a GMPC, than just do it. And when someone questions it, just say "Custom charm". For bonus prettines make him do rituals to Cecelyne before every travel.

Doesn't Hell-Walker Technique already do this? It even lets you take people along with you.

[Longes]

Doesn't Hell-Walker Technique already do this? It even lets you take people along with you.

Hell-Walker Technique allows you to find the way TO the Cecelyne, but not out of her :)

[Exthalion]

Hell-Walker Technique allows you to find the way TO the Cecelyne, but not out of her :)

Reread it, it also allows you to go from the Gates of Malfeas to any place you created with Holy Land Infliction in a scene.

[Leliel]

Personally, I feel that if breaking a part of your very nature as a part of an operation meant to save the world doesn't count as diminishing yourself for the sake of others, I really don't know what does.

There's only one problem with this:

It was an upgrade.

Arcane Fate is seriously powerful, man! And if you really want a mortal identity, you can just invent one that is exactly like you, only not a Sidereal.

[Exthalion]

There's only one problem with this:

It was an upgrade.

Arcane Fate is seriously powerful, man! And if you really want a mortal identity, you can just invent one that is exactly like you, only not a Sidereal.

I don't know, from a psychological standpoint it could have some negative repercussions. I wonder how many Sidereals have some sort of dissociative disorder because they can only interact with most people, including a lot of gods, with false identities and over the course of their long lives they will have dozens to hundreds of resplendent destinies they wear and live out.

Heck, some of their charms reinforce this. Dodge charms for example allow them to dodge the pain of loss when mortal friends die or the sense of guilt from some of the things they must do. Combine that with Heaven's Laws against commingling assets and Creation starts to look a lot like something they have very little stake in.

[Longes]

There's only one problem with this:

It was an upgrade.

Arcane Fate is seriously powerful, man! And if you really want a mortal identity, you can just invent one that is exactly like you, only not a Sidereal.

Well, that really depends on your point of view. From the player perspective, Arcane Fate is an awesome power of stealth and disguise. From the character perspective, it's "blessed with suck", having your friends and family forget you, and not being able to have any real friends among humans ever.

[Friv]

There's only one problem with this:

It was an upgrade.

Arcane Fate is seriously powerful, man! And if you really want a mortal identity, you can just invent one that is exactly like you, only not a Sidereal.

And in doing so, tie up one of a limited number of such identities (very limited, for PCs).

And then a year down the road it dissolves, and your mortal identity is gone, and everyone you knew forgets you. And you can create a new identity, and try to start over again, but you have to look at people who cared about you once and try to introduce yourself to them again...

And if you ever tell them the truth about yourself, that you're an Exalt and what you do for a living, you will be poisoned by Fate.

[Amechra]

I have to ask a question.

Namely...

Is the Infernal Monster only a metaphor? Or could it, say, be used to power an Exigent?

I want me my Ragexalted!

[Maugan Ra]

Yeah, Arcane Fate really seems to fall into the category of 'A curse that the Sidereals have managed to partially compensate for'. If it was a voluntary thing that could be turned on and off, then yeah, undeniable upgrade. As it is, the fact that everyone other than ninety odd other people in the universe will eventually forget you exist kinda sucks.

Heck, when they want to conduct serious long term deals with the gods, they have to make a Destiny under the sign of the Sorcerer (I think that was it) that specifically says 'Hi, I'm a Sidereal'.

[Exthalion]

Yeah, Arcane Fate really seems to fall into the category of 'A curse that the Sidereals have managed to partially compensate for'. If it was a voluntary thing that could be turned on and off, then yeah, undeniable upgrade. As it is, the fact that everyone other than ninety odd other people in the universe will eventually forget you exist kinda sucks.

Heck, when they want to conduct serious long term deals with the gods, they have to make a Destiny under the sign of the Sorcerer (I think that was it) that specifically says 'Hi, I'm a Sidereal'.

To be fair, a lot of important gods can succeed trivially on the roll to remember them. Celestial Lions are among that group if I remember correctly.

[Turalisj]

There's only one problem with this:

It was an upgrade.

Arcane Fate is seriously powerful, man! And if you really want a mortal identity, you can just invent one that is exactly like you, only not a Sidereal.

Your mother, father, siblings, girlfriend/wife/husband, no longer remember who you are. None of your family members or friends know who you. Anyone who meets you forgets you when they turn around.

And you think that's an upgrade?

[horngeek]

Sure. You want the picture for any particular purpose?

In reserve for when a game comes around- and after Steampunk week, she'll probably become my avvie on a more permanent basis, this is one of my favorite character ideas.

Character description below!

Triumphant Rose Guardian looks young. It's the first think almost anyone notices- the Dawn Caste looks only eighteen, and has since the day of her Exaltation. She has medium-length golden hair which she keeps tied back in a ponytail, sky-blue eyes, and the fair skin of someone native to the North. In terms of clothing, she doesn't make it obvious she's an Exalted- she wears her Orichalcum chain shirt underneath her outer layers of clothing, which vary based on the exact situation and climate she's in, but are always practical. She normally carries her Orichalcum Dire Lance, Howling Glory, in Elsewhere.

And if you're up to it, a pic of her as an Abyssal would be great too- mostly the same, in fact, although as Withered Petal, her clothing's black, her chainshirt (but not the Dire Lance) are Soulsteel, and her hair's white and eyes are red. This bit's up to you (and truth be told, the chainshirt's rather optional, since she normally keeps it concealed).

In terms of pose, I'll actually leave that up to you whether she's in a relatively casual situation, prepared for combat or lunging with her spear- and what level of Anima banner she has (her totemic anima is a blooming rose, and the Abyssal version has the rose withering even as it blooms).

Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

59th Lonely Move

(Hint: try Latin numerals)
:smallredface:
:redface:
http://oi44.tinypic.com/30xie5w.jpg


I have to ask a question.

Namely...

Is the Infernal Monster only a metaphor? Or could it, say, be used to power an Exigent?

I want me my Ragexalted!
THE ANSWER IS A RESOUNDING MAYBE. AKA we don't know, but there are hints it's more than just an MA.

My personal interpretation is that the Infernal Monster is an unborn titan. There is a legend there, half written. The first Infernal to embrace it and forge that legend will decide exactly what it is.

My personal one is Marcia, the Monster Chained, who builds a second tree alongside it of control and restraint, turning a potential destroyer of worlds into something more like a demonic guard-dog.

[Rikandur Azebol]

@ Time Wizard, I believe it to be at least partially original as I wrote it based off old saying about cats ... I am happy you find it fun. :smalltongue:

@ Siddy Arcane Fate, it is a consequence of Breaking Piece of Fate. Fitting I believe. Because, as far as I know, Loom is as buggy as it is now partially because of their utterly selfish machinations. Not to mention that Siddies are almost above heavenly law, since it's hard to pin crimes on one of them and evindence tends to vanish. One of the reasons why gods of Yu-Shan are now constantly breathing down the Sidereal's collective neck.

[horngeek]

:smallredface:
:redface:
http://oi44.tinypic.com/30xie5w.jpg

…that's adorable.

[Leliel]

Your mother, father, siblings, girlfriend/wife/husband, no longer remember who you are. None of your family members or friends know who you. Anyone who meets you forgets you when they turn around.

And you think that's an upgrade?

For the purposes of the job Sidereals are supposed to do, yes.

They were viziers and spies, now they are invisible spies and viziers.

It may suck for the individual Sidereal, but for those who were already too old to have families and friends outside of Heaven, it's still massively convenient.

Also, keep in mind Shomshak is a freelancer still, not a full writer. He isn't making the core book, so take his interpretation with a grain of salt.

I happen to like him, so I'm taking his side, but I'm biased.

[Turalisj]

It may suck for the individual Sidereal, but for those who were already too old to have families and friends outside of Heaven, it's still massively convenient.

There's the sticking point there. It's convenient for the old guys. Extremely ****ty for anyone else. We've seen to results of what happens when you have a system convenient for the old guys in power and very few others.

[horngeek]

There's the sticking point there. It's convenient for the old guys. Extremely ****ty for anyone else. We've seen to results of what happens when you have a system convenient for the old guys in power and very few others.

Which kinda ties into the point Dean was making, I think.

The old guys- the guys in charge- didn't really sacrifice anything personally.

[The Rose Dragon]

The old guys- the guys in charge- didn't really sacrifice anything personally.

I'm not sure how true that is, to be honest. Sidereals are still people, and the oldest of them still need company. Many of their friends and acquaintances were among the ones that fought against them in the Usurpation and were killed by their hands, as anyone else could not live long enough for a Sidereal to really get attached to.

Sure, the breaking of the Mask did not really change anything for them, as most of their non-Sidereal friends were either dead or had good reason to hate them, but I don't think the Bronze Faction could approach the Usurpation as coldly as killing a number of strangers. They were killing students, mentors, friends and lovers. And those they weren't killing, they were leading to the possibility of death.

[Ifni]

I'm not sure how true that is, to be honest. Sidereals are still people, and the oldest of them still need company. Many of their friends and acquaintances were among the ones that fought against them in the Usurpation and were killed by their hands, as anyone else could not live long enough for a Sidereal to really get attached to.

Sure, the breaking of the Mask did not really change anything for them, as most of their non-Sidereal friends were either dead or had good reason to hate them, but I don't think the Bronze Faction could approach the Usurpation as coldly as killing a number of strangers. They were killing students, mentors, friends and lovers. And those they weren't killing, they were leading to the possibility of death.

Yeah. I find it hard to buy that the Usurpation required no personal sacrifice from the Bronze Elders. There are seven hundred people in the world who don't live mayfly lives compared to yours, with whom you have relationships going back centuries or in some cases millennia - and for the sake of the world you have to kill three hundred of them, making another three hundred your implacable enemies?

The breaking of the Mask put the seal on it, but sacrificing their personal ties to the world in order to save it seems inherent in the Usurpation itself.

(I've also always read Chejop Kejak's "Justify past sacrifices" Motivation in this context.)

[Lix Lorn]

(I've also always read Chejop Kejak's "Justify past sacrifices" Motivation in this context.)
That motivation has always made me ;_;. I want to hug Chejop.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Your mother, father, siblings, girlfriend/wife/husband, no longer remember who you are. None of your family members or friends know who you. Anyone who meets you forgets you when they turn around.

And you think that's an upgrade?

Ah. So it's only an upgrade for PCs.

[Berdium]

I believe Kejak's lowest virtue was Compassion 3 so its not like he was a sociopath. And there isn't a lot that is cowardly about devising and executing a plan that involves killing the 300 most powerful people in the world.

[Drascin]

For the purposes of the job Sidereals are supposed to do, yes.

They were viziers and spies, now they are invisible spies and viziers.

It may suck for the individual Sidereal, but for those who were already too old to have families and friends outside of Heaven, it's still massively convenient.

Also, keep in mind Shomshak is a freelancer still, not a full writer. He isn't making the core book, so take his interpretation with a grain of salt.

I happen to like him, so I'm taking his side, but I'm biased.

Okay, let's be clear here. As is in 2e right now, Arcane Fate has two possible interpretations: the straight from rules one and the straight from fluff one.

In the straight from rules one Arcane Fate does precisely ****ing nothing to help you be a spy against anyone important.

In the straight from fluff Arcane Fate is only "convenient" if you have an extreme case of PCitis in that you have no relationships to anyone and never have any emotional needs and no real allies, and have the kind of mind that doesn't go completely bonkers insane from being unable to ever interact with anyone as yourself.

If I could lose Arcane Fate from Drake right now I wouldn't even hesitate for a second. It's just a nuisance. Its main purpose seems to be explaining why Sidereal characters will "inevitably" end up insane and disattached from every other being, weaving people like little threads without ever giving them value as people.

[Turalisj]

@Drascin- Kinda the point I was trying to make. Arcane Fate as it is now, is not a believable part for me for the Sidereals, and is in fact one of the top reasons why I don't care for them.

[Lord Raziere]

eh, both of those interpretations of Arcane Fate are too binary. Me, I would be happy playing up Arcane Fate as both a blessing and a curse. there is benefits….there is drawbacks…you live with it.

people put on masks every time they interact with anyone, what is a Sidereal's mask but just more extensive? that is my view of it.

[TimeWizard]

Hell-walker technique allows you to visit lands sanctified by Dune Drowned Oasis Ritual, actually, but yeah, that solves my problem.

[Leliel]

Okay, let's be clear here. As is in 2e right now, Arcane Fate has two possible interpretations: the straight from rules one and the straight from fluff one.

In the straight from rules one Arcane Fate does precisely ****ing nothing to help you be a spy against anyone important.

In the straight from fluff Arcane Fate is only "convenient" if you have an extreme case of PCitis in that you have no relationships to anyone and never have any emotional needs and no real allies, and have the kind of mind that doesn't go completely bonkers insane from being unable to ever interact with anyone as yourself.

If I could lose Arcane Fate from Drake right now I wouldn't even hesitate for a second. It's just a nuisance. Its main purpose seems to be explaining why Sidereal characters will "inevitably" end up insane and disattached from every other being, weaving people like little threads without ever giving them value as people.

I see.

Hm. Again, Shomshak may be wrong. I just think he's pretty insightful.

Though Arcane Fate does need a buff.

[Leliel]

I believe Kejak's lowest virtue was Compassion 3 so its not like he was a sociopath. And there isn't a lot that is cowardly about devising and executing a plan that involves killing the 300 most powerful people in the world.

That's the moral ambiguity.

Thing is, the Bronze Vision had certainty. It was something that was not the "I dunno if you lose or win" factor of the Vision of Gold. Most of the Sidereals did the smart thing over the idealistic thing, and for that, they deserve praise.

[Lochar]

That's the moral ambiguity.

Thing is, the Bronze Vision had certainty. It was something that was not the "I dunno if you lose or win" factor of the Vision of Gold. Most of the Sidereals did the smart thing over the idealistic thing, and for that, they deserve praise.

They chose the easy way with guaranteed results versus the hard path that had greater rewards but the chance of failing.

I honestly can't blame them when fail=end of Creation, but yeah.

[The Rose Dragon]

Creation has never rewarded the safe way out, though.

I think the whole thing about Chejop Kejak is best summed up in the closing comic of the 2nd Edition book, even if you know almost nothing about Chejop Kejak.

[Kobold-Bard]

Is there a way for Solars to quickly give people mutations like Scoured Perfection of Form can?

[horngeek]

No, not really- Craft: Biogenesis lets them give mutations in the first place, but warping things isn't really a Solar theme.

[The Rose Dragon]

Solars have two ways of giving people mutations without any particular limit, Science of Mutation and Wyld-Shaping Technique. Both take five hours to perform, but are not limited in what it can grant like Scoured Perfection of Form is.

[Turalisj]

Creation has never rewarded the safe way out, though.

I think the whole thing about Chejop Kejak is best summed up in the closing comic of the 2nd Edition book, even if you know almost nothing about Chejop Kejak.

The Return of the Scarlet Empress comic describes it best actually.

Chejop tries to do his best to hold things together. He's the only one who can, no one else has the experience, has the power, to do the job. He has to, because when it's over for him, a new age begins. And he wants that new age to be a bright one, even if it means making this one a bloody one.

In other words, he's the ultimate example of Lawful Neutral in Exalted. Good or evil, he will do his job as he see's fit.

[Tavar]

Personally, I feel that if breaking a part of your very nature as a part of an operation meant to save the world doesn't count as diminishing yourself for the sake of others, I really don't know what does.

I believe intent is the main factor here: arcane fate is not the result of the usurpation proper, but of the Sidreal's reaction to the usurpation. They did not want to deal with the consequences of their actions in a meaningful way, and in doing so keep their power over the world. Thus, arcane fate.

[TheCountAlucard]

Also, I'd like to point out that for more than zero Sidereals, you never had a mortal existence in Creation, because Heaven's agents took in the child at birth, or early childhood.

[TimeWizard]

Do the Gods remember them? and also, Plague stated that the Usurpation was "extremely illegal"- does anyone know that they planned the crime?

[The Rose Dragon]

I wonder why Lunars get a Charm to drive a motorcycle up vertical surfaces while Solars don't. Poor Solars have to settle for running up skyscrapers instead of driving their way to the top.

[Draken]

Do the Gods remember them? and also, Plague stated that the Usurpation was "extremely illegal"- does anyone know that they planned the crime?

Everyone knows the sidereals did it, but there is no evidence that they did it.

And Heaven can't punish you without evidence, not officially anyway. But the gods can make your time in there miserable.

[TimeWizard]

I know for game purposes UCS can't just smote them, but I find the reasoning a little weak. Also, was there a coup de tat against Gold Fact Pro-Solar Sidereals? or did they not really come around until after?

[Ifni]

I know for game purposes UCS can't just smote them, but I find the reasoning a little weak. Also, was there a coup de tat against Gold Fact Pro-Solar Sidereals? or did they not really come around until after?

The Sidereals who voted for trying to reason with the Solars were the first casualties of the Usurpation.

(And yeah, we were arguing about whether Elder Bronzes made personal sacrifices? Chejop Kejak had his oldest friend killed to stop him from warning the Deliberative.)

My impression is that the UCS is rather ambivalent about the Usurpation. He did turn his face away from the Solars.

[Tavar]

I know for game purposes UCS can't just smote them, but I find the reasoning a little weak. Also, was there a coup de tat against Gold Fact Pro-Solar Sidereals? or did they not really come around until after?

A) by then he was already absorbed in the games?
B) smote them for what? Oh, he could, but only by overruling his temperance, which....might just be a bad idea.